I think that has a better ring to it than the Kais-Hill rule.
The castle rule?
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That it's coming back around to something I considered an obvious fix.If it becomes a new rule in an official book I suggest we call it the Hill-Kais rule. I think that has a better ring to it than the Kais-Hill rule.
Don't you agree?
No way, I came up with that almost a week ago, and I'd rather just add it to the Craft skill as a minor addendum. I don't need my name on something to know that I changed it, or to feel the pride that comes with making my mark on the world, again.
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No way, I came up with that almost a week ago, and I'd rather just add it to the Craft skill as a minor addendum. I don't need my name on something to know that I changed it, or to feel the pride that comes with making my mark on the world, again.That it's coming back around to something I considered an obvious fix.If it becomes a new rule in an official book I suggest we call it the Hill-Kais rule. I think that has a better ring to it than the Kais-Hill rule.
Don't you agree?
I do. So your happy for it to just be called the Hill-rule then. Thanks, that's very charitable of you!
Any lawyers or trainee lawyers on the boards at the moment - actually that's a bloody stupid question given some of the threads lately, of course there are. Note the above in case Kais takes me to court after 'my' rule revolutionises the d20 game world and I become richer than that Mark dude and his ridiculous FoolBook, er, I mean, FarceBook, ah, hang on, FaceBook website...
Thanks,
S.
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No way, I came up with that almost a week ago, and I'd rather just add it to the Craft skill as a minor addendum. I don't need my name on something to know that I changed it, or to feel the pride that comes with making my mark on the world, again.That it's coming back around to something I considered an obvious fix.If it becomes a new rule in an official book I suggest we call it the Hill-Kais rule. I think that has a better ring to it than the Kais-Hill rule.
Don't you agree?
I do. So your happy for it to just be called the Hill-rule then. Thanks, that's very charitable of you!
Any lawyers or trainee lawyers on the boards at the moment - actually that's a bloody stupid question given some of the threads lately, of course there are. Note the above in case Kais takes me to court after 'my' rule revolutionises the d20 game world and I become richer than that Mark dude and his ridiculous FoolBook, er, I mean, FarceBook, ah, hang on, FaceBook website...
Thanks,
S.
I came up with it first, that means I get to determine the name, and I have undeniable evidence on my side. You could try to take me to court, but any judge worthy of their seat will throw it out laughing.
Well, if the crafting rules allowed something along the lines of "If you've found a lump of adamantine that weighs as musch as the item you desire to create, you can craft the item as if it was only masterwork." it would be certainly more feasible to use under the current system without changing it too much.
Earning money by crafting needs to be governed by proffession check and items need to be traded differently IMO. Those loads of gold running around and easy convertibility breaks the system sooner or later apart.
Initially I hated the idea of characters banging out stuff that should take months in the span of days, but I'm coming around to liking it. Here's my reasoning:
1.) It won't wreck the "economy". Supply and demand will make it so. Just because you can make a suit of full plate in a week (say), doesn't mean you'll be making 1000gp/week profits; there aren't that many customers.
2.) If you limit it by skill ranks, you keep it under control for the level. If at 5 Ranks craft you can do it by gp rather than sp, and at 10 Ranks you can do it by 10gp (Roll x DC x 10gp), you allow characters at 5th level to make their own gear in a few weeks (tops), and at 10th level they're making gear at magic item rates. This doesn't outshine Wizards with Fabricate (*POOF* done!), but allows craft skills to be made use of.
3.) Adjust weekly craft/profession incomes accordingly. While the point in #1 remains the same, if you can make x10 stuff in a week as normal (or x100), your weekly craft incomes should scale accordingly. This means that at 5th level instead of making (take 10 get DC25) 12.5gp per week, you'd make 125gp per week. This is STILL chump change compared to what you can make adventuring, let alone compared to what a magic item crafter can theoretically make. At 10th level (DC30), 1500gp per week SEEMS crazy (right?), but how else would you explain merchant princes and the like? They've got 10 ranks of Profession: Merchant. It's still well below what a magic item crafter's income could be (500gp/day).
4.) You could easily integrate Magic Item creation into the same system (spellcasters could use Spellcraft in place of Craft if they chose). Why are magic items always 1000gp per day?
Now, not all of the madness goes away (gold/silver sphere problem, for example) - but hopefully these points become moot once characters have enough ranks to do these things in trivial amounts of time regardless.
I removed some posts and the replies to them. Flag it and move on, please.
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1.) It won't wreck the "economy". Supply and demand will make it so. Just because you can make a suit of full plate in a week (say), doesn't mean you'll be making 1000gp/week profits; there aren't that many customers.
2.) If you limit it by skill ranks, you keep it under control for the level. .
It seems that it isn't too hard to make magic items - therefore they must be common, hence the magic item stores in every town. The question is why is the price fixed? Supply and demand = price. So in some large cities wouldn't you expect magic items like vorpal swords to cost 3 gp for 5 perhaps? The 'same rules for everyone' of d20 D&D makes it difficult to justify much of the economics other than to apply rule zero and the GM say 'because'. Simply put magic items aren't 'magic' in the dictionary sense of the term - they are now a commodity. Given that magic items play a greater role in the world than many mundane items it would seem likely that many magic items would end up costing less than many mundane ones. Somewhere the China of the fantasy world would pop up for example - killing the manufacturing in other lands.
Still are we playing macroenomonics or fantasy?
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[It seems that it isn't too hard to make magic items - therefore they must be common, hence the magic item stores in every town. The question is why is the price fixed?
Not so much fixed as there is a commonly accepted standard; magic items are sold for twice what it costs to make them - ironically worse than craft products (3 times creation cost). This doesn't stop anyone from making Diplomacy checks to try and get a better deal, of course. And then there's knowing what an item is worth in the first place (an Appraise check). Neither the PC nor NPC should know the 'under the hood' price unless they actually have the appropriate item creation feats, IMO. Most tables just abstract the whole thing to keep it moving, which is fine, but it's not the only, nor the most realistic, way of approaching a transaction.
Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't see the part where you show that it isn't broken.
My understanding of why everyone (but you, I guess :)) thinks crafting is broken is not because it's unrealistic, but because it's boring and doesn't lend itself well to the adventuring lifestyle at all.
Why craft when you can steal?
You want to fill all your body slots? Again?
I'll be in the dungeon when you feel safe enough to enter.
[It seems that it isn't too hard to make magic items - therefore they must be common, hence the magic item stores in every town. The question is why is the price fixed?Not so much fixed as there is a commonly accepted standard; magic items are sold for twice what it costs to make them - ironically worse than craft products (3 times creation cost). This doesn't stop anyone from making Diplomacy checks to try and get a better deal, of course. And then there's knowing what an item is worth in the first place (an Appraise check). Neither the PC nor NPC should know the 'under the hood' price unless they actually have the appropriate item creation feats, IMO. Most tables just abstract the whole thing to keep it moving, which is fine, but it's not the only, nor the most realistic, way of approaching a transaction.
Some people who have read all the relevant sections and items, insist that their character would know all the prices and existence of said items. Why? Because adventurers.
I was a bit incredulous at such meta-gaming. Especially when characters come from non-magic merchant backgrounds.
I think everything would be solved if.. they made a book.
That has everything you could buy and craft.
To buy the item it should give you a flat price. Then the price for the modifiers, and that's your price.To craft something they tell you what the item is, what the raw materials are and much much they cost/ worth. From there they should have set DC's for that item along with a length of time it take to finish.
The DC is just to see if you mess up, if you do you have to start all over again. If the item is anything but metal which can be melted down and reused the crafter must get the materials once again.As for time....
Lets say you want to craft a shortsword. You get the materials you need and head to the town forge. (Here is what I would like to see)You have to ask the town blacksmith if you can use his forge, if he says no then pay him. He is running a business after all.)This is the part where Realism should come into play... and I think a few of you need to go back to school when it comes to this.
A blacksmith generally keeps his forge going 24/7 since it uses less wood or coal to keep it going compared to stopping and starting it everyday for a few hours.
For the sake of putting this into a RPG! I'm going to skip the handle and ornaments.
OK! We got our iron we need for the sword so we melt down the iron. Depends on the forge it can take 1-10 hours to do that.
Next we pour the mold (Chances are... unless you are making a exotic weapon the blacksmith will have the mold, In which you spend a day making) Pouring the mold takes about 30 sec- 1 minute... Letting it sit till is a solid takes 1-5 hours. (The mold is for the basic shape of the item not exact)
Now you take the iron shape out of the mold and you pound it into how you want the blade to be. 1-2 hours
Roll out the handle then add the hilt. 1-2 hours.Drop in in a barrel of oil for a moment then put it in a barrel of water. This allows for the metal to cool at a high rate of speed without damaging the sword. (Oil...
You do realize that if you melt the iron into a liquid and pour it into a mold, you end up with a cast iron sword, which is completely useless. Cast iron is brittle and about the worst thing you would want to make a sword out of.
Doing a little bit of math, it takes a master craftsman (10 ranks of craft skill) under 2 days to make a longsword. (10 skill ranks, 2 stat, 3 class skill, 6 Feat: skill focus, 4 from 2 competent assistants, 2 from master work equipment, taking 10) 37 skill roll times 15 DC = 555 sp worth of work, 150 sp for the the sword.
A similar craftsman making armor, can make Full Plate in 22 weeks or so, and Half Plate (much more accurate for what an average well off knight would own) in just over 9 weeks.
Making these Masterwork only adds a couple of days to the total.
Holy thread necromancy batman!
That said, did unchained crafting satisfy anyone?
I must admit, I can't find myself caring about mundane crafting. Even when I played a dwarven smith, the part I cared about was enhancing weapons and armor with runes.
Since the thread has been resurrected apparently, let me just throw in my two cents:
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.WOW! Thank you Dorje. You have solidified my point!
At the end of that rule it says though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And with that, the spell Fabricate cannot be used in any fashion to make a magical item at any point of time. The question of whether or not such a thought was subjective has been clearly defined by my opponent.
Win !!!
I love this ruling. Take a bunch of iron. Use fabricate on it and make a sword. Now you have a sword out of anti-magical iron: it can't be used in any fashion to create magical items. Smelt it down and make tiny antimagical iron nuggets. Sneak into every major factory that produces swords/armor/whatever else out of iron in your favourite kingdom and throw a nugget into each of their melting furnaces. Now their furnaces produce antimagical iron(because a small % of that iron came from the fabricate spell), and thus nothing they make form this point onward can ever be enchanted, because no matter how much normal iron you add to the furnace, a small % of antimagical atoms will remain. But you did this to every factory in the kingdom, so now nothing can be enchanted. Open your own factory. You now have monopoly on enchantable iron items. Best part? Nobody would figure out that the problem is in the smelters, since fabricated atoms look exactly like normal atoms. Make millions. Repeat for every other material. Conquer the world with the power of economics.
TL;DR Trying to fix crafting like this just makes it even more broken))
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Why must everything be so MMO.
Ahh, the good old "Reductio ad MMOorum" rhetoric figure.
My side of the argument is promotic "true Roleplaying" (TM) while the other side just wants to play WoW offline. Therefor i win.
Ahh, truly a classic ... to derail every - until then - civilised and on-topic discussion.
Why must everything be so MMO.Ahh, the good old "Reductio ad MMOorum" rhetoric figure.
My side of the argument is promotic "true Roleplaying" (TM) while the other side just wants to play WoW offline. Therefor i win.
Ahh, truly a classic ... to derail every - until then - civilised and on-topic discussion.
In fairness, the OP seemed to be setting up for a classic "How dare anyone think Pathfinder is not completely perfect in every way!" rant from the very beginning.
If you ask me the new crafting system does make things faster, but only if you're beating the DC and multiplying the base progress. For instance, a masterwork longsword is a DC 20 check - if you roll exactly 20, you make 28 gp per week towards the cost. In the older rules you'd be making 400 so, or 40 gp per week. However, if you roll a 30, you make three times the base value per day, getting 84 gp per week, while you'd be making 60 gp per week under the older system.
Simply put, at the lowest necessary roll the new system is slower, but if you beat the DC by 5 or more it's faster.