Too ambitious a project, you say. Perhaps but this is how I would like to roleplay my outdoorsy, woodsy, type of Ranger.
There are a lot of valid criticisms against crafting in the thread, but I don't think this one works. Taking a +6 crafting skill and expecting anything but numerous failures and setbacks for attemtping to make a +4 strength mighty composite longbow isn't within reasonable mechanics of the game. If that's how you want to roleplay your character, you're going to have to spend skill points to back it up, because they lack the earned skill and capacity to reliably create what you're referring to, just as someone can't say they want to roleplay their characters carrying out an action that they don't have the skill, feat or class ability to do.
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The word consequences is not subjective. It means good or/and bad outcomes. You get a masterwork sword, but it cannot be enchanted. Rather elementary English right there.-.-
The spell's consequence is creating a masterwork weapon. That's all the spell did. Spell ends, you've got a masterwork weapon. Wait a round or 2000 years, nothing else happens from the fabricate spell.. it's just a plain old masterwork item.
Making it a magical item is a consequence of the Craft Arms and Armor feat. You follow the rules for magical item creation, and the consequence is a magic item.
How you can figure that making it magical has anything to do with the fabricate spell is beyond me.
I think you are stuck with the burden of proof here. Prove to me exactly how, by the rules, the fabricate spell is the catalyst for creating a magical item.
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While you are at it, how about addressing the far more pressing concerns:1. Fabricate still makes mundane equipment at a speed that makes crafting pointless. Crafting is still broken by the fabricate spell, regardless of how magic items are treated.
2. How exactly does the amount you can sell something for make someone who's crafting it take a longer time or have a higher check? I was under the impression that the reason something costs more is because of rarity, supply and demand, usefulness, etc. What do these things have to do with how hard it is to make or how long it will take?
These are the reasons crafting is broken. Your OP does nothing to address this, and in fact only goes about masking the problem or outright suggesting house rules (which is a statement about it's brokenness, not that it's not broken).
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Honestly... it feels weird telling the original poster to stop derailing his own thread.If you don't want to discuss the real concerns here, and would rather push the pointless and fallacious argument about the fabricate spell, then I'm done here. This is a soapbox thread, not an attempt at...
This is how I feel:
It is impossible to make a mechanic to cover such a broad generalization (millions if not billions of products). The crafting system that is in place handles the most important mundane needs of the game, weapons and armor. After that things get tricky, but that's the point! In any system, A N Y S Y S T E M that anyone creates, it is impossible to cover all items - unless you write a book or possibly volumes of books on the subject. You cannot fix something that is not fixable, hence it is not broken. I honestly do not think any of you get it. This system works for what is needed. Find me a crafting system in any game that does not have flaws. I challenge you.
In any case, I have asked for a clarification on the Fabricate spell. If Paizo is going to allow a spell to make full plate armor with only a few words then that spell needs to be moved up to 9th level and cost a whole hell of a lot more coin. Fabricate, as most of you are reading it, is not unbalancing, it borders on god-mode and directly effects how the skill Craft functions in any campaign.
Discussing Fabricate is relevant to this thread so if you do not like this "soapbox thread", stop posting.
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This is how I feel:
It is impossible to make a mechanic to cover such a broad generalization (millions if not billions of products). The crafting system that is in place handles the most important mundane needs of the game, weapons and armor. After that things get tricky, but that's the point! In any system, A N Y S Y S T E M that anyone creates, it is impossible to cover all items - unless you write a book or possibly volumes of books on the subject. You cannot fix something that is not fixable, hence it is not broken. I honestly do not think any of you get it. This system works for what is needed. Find me a crafting system in any game that does not have flaws. I challenge you.
In any case, I have asked for a clarification on the Fabricate spell. If Paizo is going to allow a spell to make full plate armor with only a few words then that spell needs to be moved up to 9th level and cost a whole hell of a lot more coin. Fabricate, as most of you are reading it, is not unbalancing, it borders on god-mode and directly effects how the skill Craft functions in any campaign.
Discussing Fabricate is relevant to this thread so if you do not like this "soapbox thread", stop posting.
What you constantly fail to realize, is that a wizard or sorcerer able to cast a 5th level spell, is, respectively 9th or 10th level. And that by default means that they are superhuman. The most skilled people on earth are 5th level, and those are fricking amazing at what they do. Einstein, Tesla, Mozart...one of a kind geniuses. Adventurers are exactly that. Superhuman people that are one in a million. With a craft skill of +20, you can routinely make masterwork items with take ten. Heck, you can simply roll the dice and even if the outcome is 1, you still make the item. What fabricate does, is to simply eliminate the time required to craft the item, so that it is made in 6 seconds it requires the caster to cast a spell. But that is ok.
If you want to argue the point, i would point you to this article, dome by one Justin Alexander, whith which i completely agree with. It may be about D&D, but his point is as valid for PF as it was for D&D.
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...this article
Excellent article. I suggest everyone read it.
As a side point, this would explain why everyone does not become a wizard.
...this articleExcellent article. I suggest everyone read it.
I respect the work from this site and agree with the points he makes, but the article linked above doesn't even touch on why we all believe Craft is broken - that it takes an unreasonable long amount of time to craft items.
I am starting to think that when it takes about 3 months to craft a +4 Mighty Composite Longbow the system is assuming that it is being done as a hobby by the adventurer - 2 hours a day and 3 or 4 days a week.
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I respect the work from this site and agree with the points he makes, but the article linked above doesn't even touch on why we all believe Craft is broken - that it takes an unreasonable long amount of time to craft items.
Let's accept that the amount of time is unreasonable for arguments sake. How does this time effect your game play? What is the actual "cost"? If you were making your +4 Mighty Composite Longbow between adventurers surely is going to be ready before you have to save your little part of the world again?
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Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.
Crafting is more often called out for how bizarre it is. When more complicated items take less time to make and something that's more expensive but very simple takes a long time to make, crafting needs fixing...
Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.
There is a reason it survived 7 reviews to date with a perfect 5 stars (including mine, which is not easy- PF CRB only got 3).
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Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.There is a reason it survived 7 reviews to date with a perfect 5 stars (including mine, which is not easy- PF CRB only got 3).
And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?
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And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?
Of course. If I wanted complete realism I wouldn't be playing a game involving magic. If a skill is not fun due to time constraints and a poor basis for its rules (price?) why bother including it in a product?
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And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.There is a reason it survived 7 reviews to date with a perfect 5 stars (including mine, which is not easy- PF CRB only got 3).
In a world where magic is cast everywhere and people go around fighting dragons, yes. Even if it's not realistic, at least it's internally consistent. Which are the rules I want from a fantasy game.
I wasn't complaining about 'realism', I was complaining about internal consistency, but craft rules as written aren't realistic either.
And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.There is a reason it survived 7 reviews to date with a perfect 5 stars (including mine, which is not easy- PF CRB only got 3).In a world where magic is cast everywhere and people go around fighting dragons, yes. Even if it's not realistic, at least it's internally consistent. Which are the rules I want from a fantasy game.
I wasn't complaining about 'realism', I was complaining about internal consistency, but craft rules as written aren't realistic either.
Eloquently put.
I like you- we must game.
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And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?Of course. If I wanted complete realism I wouldn't be playing a game involving magic. If a skill is not fun due to time constraints and a poor basis for its rules (price?) why bother including it in a product?
I am happy it works for you. Use it.
For me though, I prefer something more realistic. I do not want everything to be made at turbo speed.
I prefer something more realistic.
I think you're using the wrong system then. PF is selectively realistic at best.
PF has clear and consistant rules for many situations, especially where combat and dungeon crawling is concerned, and lends itself well to those situations, however it has failings elsewhere, more often than not in non-combat, non-dungeon situations. Problems it inherited from its predecessor. Basing crafting off of item value as opposed to item complexity is one of those failings.
I like you- we must game.
I'd like that sometime.
I am happy it works for you. Use it.For me though, I prefer something more realistic. I do not want everything to be made at turbo speed.
The default crafting rules aren't realistic either.
A) More difficult items can be made faster with the rules as writtenB) Items take longer simply because they're made with a more expensive material (Gold takes longer to craft than a silver for no other reason than that it's more expensive)
The middle ground with Making Craft Work would be to increase the time it takes to make items, but allow characters with higher checks to speed up the work even more or without limit, even to fantastical speeds in mid to high levels.
This would allow for the aid of apprentice/helpers to complete work faster.
Craft Rules RAW: To long
Making Craft Work: To short
Solution, times between the two.
Personally Making Craft Work with DCs based on item complexity and not outright cost make far more sense. It even leaves open the option of assigning a custom objects complexity beyond those presented in Making Craft Work. Big heroic/epic/mythic things like a clock tower built more or less by a single person.
B) Items take longer simply because they're made with a more expensive material (Gold takes longer to craft than a silver for no other reason than that it's more expensive)
This is easily circumvented without stretching RaW.
You don't craft a ruby encrusted long sword as a 515 gp. You craft a 15 gp longsword, and then attach a 500 gp ruby to it.
You don't craft a longsword of solid gold as a 200 gp item, you craft a longsword as a 15 gp longsword and add 200 gp worth of gold.
Granted it isn't RaW, but it is in the spirit of RaW.
The RaW craft system is flawed, but this argument is often cited as the foundation as to why the craft system is broken and yet, it is the easiest bug to fix without taking anything from RaW.
B) Items take longer simply because they're made with a more expensive material (Gold takes longer to craft than a silver for no other reason than that it's more expensive)
This is easily circumvented without stretching RaW.
You don't craft a ruby encrusted long sword as a 515 gp. You craft a 15 gp longsword, and then attach a 500 gp ruby to it.
You don't craft a longsword of solid gold as a 200 gp item, you craft a longsword as a 15 gp longsword and add 200 gp worth of gold.
Granted it isn't RaW, but it is in the spirit of RaW.
The RaW craft system is flawed, but this argument is often cited as the foundation as to why the craft system is broken and yet, it is the easiest bug to fix without taking anything from RaW.
Cost of materials
5 lb Iron Anvil : 1 gp (iron is 2sp per pound)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 5 gp (100 copper coins = 1 lb of copper)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 500 gp (100 gold coins = 1 lb of gold)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 5000 gp (100 platinum coins = 1 lb of platinum)
Sale Price (2x material cost)
5 lb Iron Anvil : 2 gp (20 sp)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 10 gp (100 sp)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 1,000 gp (10,000 sp)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 10,000 gp (100,000 sp)
Assuming a smith with +10 check and taking ten to get 20. Typical items = DC 10, +10 voluntary = 20. Succeed on all checks.
20x20 = 400 sp per week. 400/7 = 57 sp per day
5 lb Iron Anvil : < 1 day
5 lb Copper Anvil : < 2 days
5 lb Gold Anvil : 25 days
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 250 days
Note that in all situations, you're melting metal and pouring it into a wooden or ceramic mold and letting it harden. You can't just say 'Oh, I'll craft an iron anvil and coat it with gold to get a gold anvil'.
The system, by using value as the basis, is broken from the ground up. Theoretically, a gold anvil should be the easiest (lowest melting point), an iron anvil second, a copper third, and the platinum fourth. However, it doesn't take most of a year to melt down 5 lbs of platinum. If it did, there wouldn't be platinum coins.
Heck, just making a platinum coin requires 1 pp = 10 gp = 100 sp, or two days for an average blacksmith. Think about that, one coin takes two days to craft. Want to craft 100 of them? 100 pp = 1000 gp = 10000 sp, which as we saw above, is 25 days. A month to make 100 coins?
Borked.
EDIT : Ooops, my mistake. Iron is 1sp per pound, so halve all values for Iron. The point still stands.
Theoretically, a gold anvil should be the easiest
(lowest melting point), an iron anvil second, a copper third, and the platinum fourth. However, it doesn't take most of a year to melt...
Agree completely!
Heck, just making a platinum coin requires 1 pp = 10 gp = 100 sp, or two days for an average blacksmith. Think about that, one coin takes two days to craft. Want to craft 100 of them? 100 pp = 1000 gp = 10000 sp, which as we saw above, is 25 days. A month to make 100 coins?
And a fine example of why the system sucks.
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Making Craft Work <- This nails down issues with crafting as well as gives really good solutions.
Crafting is more often called out for how bizarre it is. When more complicated items take less time to make and something that's more expensive but very simple takes a long time to make, crafting needs fixing...
Thanks for the link. I've got some players who may be crafting soon, so I think I'll invest the buck.
B) Items take longer simply because they're made with a more expensive material (Gold takes longer to craft than a silver for no other reason than that it's more expensive)
This is easily circumvented without stretching RaW.
You don't craft a ruby encrusted long sword as a 515 gp. You craft a 15 gp longsword, and then attach a 500 gp ruby to it.
You don't craft a longsword of solid gold as a 200 gp item, you craft a longsword as a 15 gp longsword and add 200 gp worth of gold.
Granted it isn't RaW, but it is in the spirit of RaW.
The RaW craft system is flawed, but this argument is often cited as the foundation as to why the craft system is broken and yet, it is the easiest bug to fix without taking anything from RaW.
Cost of materials
5 lb Iron Anvil : 1 gp (iron is 2sp per pound)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 5 gp (100 copper coins = 1 lb of copper)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 500 gp (100 gold coins = 1 lb of gold)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 5000 gp (100 platinum coins = 1 lb of platinum)Sale Price (2x material cost)
5 lb Iron Anvil : 2 gp (20 sp)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 10 gp (100 sp)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 1,000 gp (10,000 sp)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 10,000 gp (100,000 sp)Assuming a smith with +10 check and taking ten to get 20. Typical items = DC 10, +10 voluntary = 20. Succeed on all checks.
20x20 = 400 sp per week. 400/7 = 57 sp per day
5 lb Iron Anvil : < 1 day
5 lb Copper Anvil : < 2 days
5 lb Gold Anvil : 25 days
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 250 daysNote that in all situations, you're melting metal and pouring it into a wooden or ceramic mold and letting it harden. You can't just say 'Oh, I'll craft an iron anvil and coat it with gold to get a gold anvil'.
The system, by using value as the basis, is broken from the ground up. Theoretically, a gold anvil should be the easiest (lowest melting point), an iron anvil second, a copper third, and the platinum fourth. However, it doesn't take most of a year to melt...
Just something to point out, the only one of those anvils that would be useful would be the iron one. Of course, if you want to make the other anvils useful, you probably will need to put a lot more work into creating them.
Your point still stands though. Basing the crafting time on value rather than difficulty creates some weird situations.
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Making a system based solely on how hard it is to make an item is near impossible with the documentation provided by Pathfinder. It must be done with value or someone will have to provide extensive research for items, a list that will likely never be completed. I did simplify the system and made the time requirements more reasonable for those upset that it could take years to accomplish a task, yet not allowing only one week to make a full plate.
This system excludes adding folks to speed things up and excludes materials harder to work with. They both clog the system down.
Please test your items against my system.
It needs tweaking and I still need to add the base cost, cost of failure, and tool adjustments. Suggestions are appreciated.
All items are calculated with the poorest material available. Example: A fishhook made of platinum costs 5g, but to make a fishhook with a cheaper material would only cost 1s so this skill check is based on the simple type, not the average.
Template______Market Value_______Time Requirement___Craft DC____Number of Checks
Simple*___________<= 1g_________________1 day___________5____________1 check
Average **________<= 10g________________1 week__________10___________1 check
Difficult ***________<= 50g_______________1 month__________15___________4 checks
Specialized ****____> 50g________________4 months_________20__________16 checks
* includes any item that can be easily carved or poured (ex. crowbar), ammunition, and poisons <= 15 DC.
** includes light armor, shields, simple weapons, and poisons > 15 DC.
*** includes medium armor, martial and exotic weapons.
**** includes heavy armor.
If you want to create a masterwork item add 5 to the Craft DC, double the time requirement, and double the amount of skill checks.
If the skill check roll is double the DC, count the check as double so a difficult item could be made in 2 weeks and a specialized item could be made in 2 months (provided 8 checks were double the DC).
All specialized items require additional helpers determined by your GM (ex. a rowboat requires 2 additional helpers and a ship requires 40 additional helpers).
I'm really surprised that we haven't heard from the SCA or similar re-enacting groups.
I have no formal training in working with metal at all. I've made a pair of gauntlets that have survived years of intensive training, probably over one hundred hours of use with minimal upkeep. Granted, these were not Masterwork, and I probably don't have skills to make a Masterwork pair. I used only simple tools: cutting shears, pliers, hammer, glue. I made these in less than eight hours total.
I've made a hand-axe. A friend shaped the axe-head from a lump of mild steel over an anvil. We welded hardened steel on for the cutting edge using a modern MIG welder. I cut a branch from an apple tree in my yard, I cured it in flowing water over the winter (actually I cured about a dozen staves). I cleaned and shaped the branch, and fitted the head using simple tools. Again, about eight hours of actual work.
In response to this thread I just rang a bowyer I've bought a longbow from. He is a Paralympic archer, and scoots around his house in his wheel chair going from his polishing room to gluing room to his indoor target. He said it takes him 4-5 weeks to make a MW longbow. He said he only works when he is in the mood, if he is feeling negative about working on the bow then there's no point working at all- I'd call that taking 10.
Where are these ideas that it really does take that long to craft a bow, armour, etc? I read people saying it takes that long in the real world, but I've seen nothing to back it up.
The Craft skill takes an unreasonably long time.
Please test your items against my system.
It needs tweaking and I still need to add the base cost, cost of failure, and tool adjustments. Suggestions are appreciated.
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't see this as sufficiently different to Making Craft Work.
Let's accept that the amount of time is unreasonable for arguments sake. How does this time effect your game play? What is the actual "cost"? If you were making your +4 Mighty Composite Longbow between adventurers surely is going to be ready before you have to save your little part of the world again?
I respect the work from this site and agree with the points he makes, but the article linked above doesn't even touch on why we all believe Craft is broken - that it takes an unreasonable long amount of time to craft items.
Yes, in my current PbP campaign we are basically stuck in the wilderness where I thought it would be most appropriate to craft my own gear, it does make a difference. We are struggling to survive week by week, so it will take years of RL before I get this thing made.
EDIT: admittedly, in most of my campaigns it wouldn't make a difference. It seems to be only when you think that it is an appropriate bit of flavour for your character that you realise how broken it is.
Where are these ideas that it really does take that long to craft a bow, armour, etc? I read people saying it takes that long in the real world, but I've seen nothing to back it up.
The Craft skill takes an unreasonably long time.
Because we can hop in our cars and drive down to a decent hardware store and buy excellent tools and top quality modern materials and work in purpose built spaces with powered appliances.
Because we can hop in our cars and drive down to a decent hardware store and buy excellent tools and top quality modern materials and work in purpose built spaces with powered appliances.
They had those in medieval times too. They were called apprentices.
They had those in medieval times too. They were called apprentices.
So? still took them a long time when not having the benefit of all our mod cons.
How long would it have taken them to make a car? Reckon Mitsubishi does it faster?
Where are these ideas that it really does take that long to craft a bow, armour, etc? I read people saying it takes that long in the real world, but I've seen nothing to back it up.
The Craft skill takes an unreasonably long time.
Because we can hop in our cars and drive down to a decent hardware store and buy excellent tools and top quality modern materials and work in purpose built spaces with powered appliances.
TL;DR?
I mentioned that I used only simple hand tools. Imagine how much quicker it could've been if I had any training in the use of the tools, or had used the gauntlet pattern even once before.I should have mentioned that the bowyer uses Mostly hand tools. He does begin with slabs of timber cut to 2" think, 8" wide and a few feet long. He does cut this with a jig saw into the basic shape, though it is only 'roughing out' the shape.He shapes the bow using a rasp, uses sandpaper by hand, finishes it with a French polishing method by hand.
Starting with rough cut timber, and cutting it out by hand would only add a few days at most, not a few months.
The point is that the time taken by the Crafting skill is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out. I'm not whining about a few hours, or days, but several weeks.
Yet simple hand tools are enough to create pretty basic items, and the items you described are pretty basic.
No full suits of well made armour built up from raw materials there :)
Similarly the bowyer is still taking some time, even with the good quality readily obtainable materials and supplies we have - something that would have not been enjoyed so easily in the 'wayback machine'.
That all being said, the crafting times are whack in PF, for sure, but stuff did take a while to make (if it was complex and detailed). My grandpa was a blacksmith (farrier) and could churn out routine items quickly. Making a quality sword, as opposed to a quality wallhanger, would probably take some time to make.
And lets not get started on the Japanese and their Katanas. Similarly O-yoroi could take 265 days to make, and thats with the previously mentioned apprentices on the case.
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The Japanese had to keep reworking their one design, because despite it being "perfect" it really wasn't, still isn't today.
Most of the time when a person wanted a high-quality bow, in the times when bows were commonly used, they had money, which means they had connections, so they could just ask around a little to find where the best wood for bows came from, then they could take a fairly short journey to get to it, especially since this is Europe, it's not a particularly big place.
They would then go to those places, or if too busy being a responsible nobleperson, would send someone less important/busy to get one made for them. Same deal with armor, weapons, and pretty much anything else. Typically these distances were even shorter, because of politics, they would only have a limited number of places to pick from.
i don't think craft is broken but poisons certainly are my 10th level alchemist has given up trying to use them.
Cost of materials5 lb Iron Anvil : 1 gp (iron is 2sp per pound)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 5 gp (100 copper coins = 1 lb of copper)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 500 gp (100 gold coins = 1 lb of gold)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 5000 gp (100 platinum coins = 1 lb of platinum)(...)
Note that in all situations, you're melting metal and pouring it into a wooden or ceramic mold and letting it harden. You can't just say 'Oh, I'll craft an iron anvil and coat it with gold to get a gold anvil'.
... and lets no forget that gold is more than twice the density than iron. Therefore in order to make an anvil of pure gold of the same volume, you would need close to 2.5 times the necessary weight in gold.
So this is obviously an abstraction, but basing the value used to determine crafting time on an item of non-precious materials is a patch that fixes half of the crafting system's RaW hiccups. I agree that it has other issues however.
But absolute realism aside (rules shouldn't necessarily aim for realism), a system based on market value is basically there to limit abuse from players, because at one point or another, someone will realize that you can double your profit by making rapiers instead of battle axes if both take the same time to make and both have the same craft DC. For the system (and the economic system behind it) to be coherent, a rapier needs to take twice as long to craft as a battle axe or raw materials need to be variable in proportions for each item or the system needs to have a more precise difficulty scale than it has by RaW*.
Basing the system on market value is handy because we have a cost for every item. Otherwise, each item would have to come with extra information like craft DC, proportion of raw materials that you need to pay up-front, time it takes to craft, or the demand on product has within its economic environment.
* That's of course if you care about some items being more profitable than others. Personally I don't and that's why my craft houserules play on variation of time and DCs only.
'findel
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Hama, I tried to PM you but was unable to find a way. I wanted to thank you so much for sharing that link. I have read every page of the entire url. It has helped me as a player and GM. It is now bookmarked and I will be sharing it with other people.
It's the single greatest site about gaming for me. I stumbled upon it by accident completely. It has changed the way i game for the better.
Now as for crafting, i still believe that crafting times should be cut in half or even to one quarter of current listed times. Because they take to damn long, what if there was an orc attack in a few days and my weaponsmith wanted to make a dozen spears? He would need to mould the spearheads, cut the timber, sharpen the spearheads, attach them to the handle and voila. I made a spear. True, i didn't melt steel, i cut it, but then i sharpened it with the old fashioned, leg powered grinding stone and smoothed the handle by hand. It took me about eight hours, and i rested for at least two. Just takes too long. How would a smithy equip an army in two weeks time, even if they worked around the clock, if they took at least two days to craft something? Trust me, weapons could be mass produced very fast. To the rate of dozen or more swords a day. They would be of regular quality, but people generally don't need any better.
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Actually,
A system that just assigns complexity and size would work. It doesn't have to put in something for each item, just examples.
Complexity :
Extremely Simple (Coin, ingot) DC 5
Simple (Club, Quarterstaff, Ring) DC 5
Normal (Sword, Breastplate) DC 10
Complicated (Clock, Chainmail, Lamellar armor, half-plate) DC 15
Complex (Construct, Full Plate) DC 20
Extremely Complex (MW version of Complex) DC 30
Then, assign a base time based on complexity.
Extremely Simple : 1 hour
Simple : 1 day
Normal : 1 week
Complicated : 1 month
Complex : 3 months
Extremely Complex : 6 months
Then, modify the time by the size.
Diminuitive : x2
Tiny : x1.5
Small : x1
Medium : x1
Large : x1.5
Huge : x2
Collosal : x4
Then, modify it for MW by increasing the complexity level one step for MW items, and also setting the minimum DC to 20.
Base time for a MW ring, 2 weeks. Base time for a ring, 2 days. Then, reduce the time to make something by 5% for every 5 pts you make the DC by, up to a maximum of 50% reduction.
So, a master work sword takes a base time of a month and has a DC 20. A professional blacksmith with a 10 check could take 10 and make a MW medium sword in a month. A master blacksmith with a +26 check (+3 Int, 10 ranks, +6 skill focus, +3 trained, +2 MW tools, +2 apprentice ) could make a masterwork sword in 85% of that time, or about 3 weeks.
A collosal warship (complex) would take 2 years to build by an average shipwright (probably less, since he'd have a huge crew working on it, with MW tools), probably around 18 months. Probably not quite real world, but certainly within spitting distance. I'm sure there's corner cases where it breaks down, but, at the very least, it divorces value from time to make.
Actually,
A system that just assigns complexity and size would work. It doesn't have to put in something for each item, just examples (...)
(...) but, at the very least, it divorces value from time to make.
Yes that would be my favored foundations for a craft system (actually, it is the foundation of my homebrewed craft system, except that you have a modifier for size which is not a bad idea*...)
Retooling the system from the ground up, the level of complexity can become part of the equation to establish market prices. I also prefer when craft checks allow you to complete the item in a fraction of set time period, instead of set period of time to create a fraction of the item.
But I still think that the RaW craft system is not ideal, but not broken either.
* size modifiers would have to be in relation of the size of the craftsman: a halfling would have an easier time crafting a Tiny items and a titan would create Colossal items much faster. But I get the idea...
'findel
Crafting is a project. It should list an estimate for effort, and duration, and they need not be the same.
For example, making some chemical based things (acid, for example) requires some effort, plus alot of waiting.
Metals should have different properties for casting and for forging.
Gems should have different properties based on how you can cut them.
This kind of thing.
Creepy-weird thread.
Crafting has never been "broken" for us.
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Here is where your GM should make a ruling to lower the time required for the golden rod.So the craft rules work as long as the GM replaces them with arbitrary value judgements.
Well alrighty then.
Sounds like the rest of the rules to me, when a Player wants to do something not quite covered by the rules. You want rules with no interpretation, try WoW.
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Sounds like the rest of the rules to me, when a Player wants to do something not quite covered by the rules. You want rules with no interpretation, try WoW.Here is where your GM should make a ruling to lower the time required for the golden rod.So the craft rules work as long as the GM replaces them with arbitrary value judgements.
Well alrighty then.
No, it doesn't. MIB is not talking about a rule of thumb ruling by the GM when the Player wants to swing on a chandelier to club the big bad in the head with his boots.
The craft rules are very explicit in how they work, and the proposed solution, by the OP, was to 'fudge how things work by not actually using the rules as presented' to prove they were 'not broken'. In other words, the OPs premise was that the rules were not broken as long as the GM houseruled how they worked. That's what we call in Texas an Ox Moron.
* size modifiers would have to be in relation of the size of the craftsman: a halfling would have an easier time crafting a Tiny items and a titan would create Colossal items much faster. But I get the idea...'findel
Well, I'd say that since the system treats Small/Medium as the default, then both should treat each other's size categories as normal, and both should have the same difficulty as you go up and down the scale.
Now, I'd say that anything other than small/medium would have the size modifier based on how many levels up or down they go, yes. So a Large creature trying to craft a small item has more trouble than a medium person, and less than a huge character has.
Do you realize that kings would order a suit of armor and not see it for nearly a year?
Why must everything be so MMO.
Why are you assuming that campaigns takes months or years? Many times people go from level 1 to 15 or higher over the course of a 2 months or less in an adventure. Should the GM be required to make up some arbitrary reason to extend a campaign just because someone wants to make full plate armor(not even masterwork full plate)?
If Paizo is going to allow a spell to make full plate armor with only a few words then that spell needs to be moved up to 9th level and cost a whole hell of a lot more coin.
I can cast wish and get a magical item. Why would I waste my slot(9th level) on a mundane item. It would be cheaper(resource wise) to drop a slot on teleport to get to a metropolis to buy the item.
...this articleExcellent article. I suggest everyone read it.
As a side point, this would explain why everyone does not become a wizard.
You don't have to be a wizard to be above level 5.
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Why are you assuming that campaigns takes months or years? Many times people go from level 1 to 15 or higher over the course of a 2 months or less in an adventure. Should the GM be required to make up some arbitrary reason to extend a campaign just because someone wants to make full plate armor(not even masterwork full plate)?
Do you realize that kings would order a suit of armor and not see it for nearly a year?
Why must everything be so MMO.
I do not play WoW.
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And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?Of course. If I wanted complete realism I wouldn't be playing a game involving magic. If a skill is not fun due to time constraints and a poor basis for its rules (price?) why bother including it in a product?I am happy it works for you. Use it.
For me though, I prefer something more realistic. I do not want everything to be made at turbo speed.
So it seems craft is not broken for you then. Remember broken is subjective. What works for one game may not work for another.