You don't even want to be convinced on how you are wrong. You are so dead-set, so sure, that you are right, that you don't even want to discuss ways of getting around one ability no one will ever see if they start at level 1.
So explain to me: why should we bother trying to convince you otherwise? I don't think we should frankly, as such you are wasting Paizo's money with this thread.
Silly forum sending me to the wrong thread.
Since I am here could you quote who you are disagreeing with? I am assuming it is Cheapy.
@Cheapy the miracle spell being powered by a deity is fluff. That has no bearing on actual mechanics. Miracle is really no stronger than Wish for the most part. Putting common sense aside since this is a 20 level ability . It does say he can't be detected by any means. RAW I don't see a way around that except to shut the ability down.
I think that can be done since it is intended to work like a spell so dispel magic should work, but others are saying it can't because it is an SU. I did create a thread so people can FAQ it, and get it straightened out, but so far only one other person has done so.
Irrelevant to the specific issue--the question is is there a way to remove ability penalties. The answer is yes, Greater Restoration (and note that Miracle can be used to cast this as a Standard Action).
Restoration, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 1
CASTINGCasting Time 3 rounds
Components V, S
EFFECTRange touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
DESCRIPTIONLesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject's ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
SU is magical regardless of the fact it's also SU.
takes 3 rounds to cast instead of just waiting the minute it takes for the penalty to simply go away.
Greater Restoration "dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities" and so can address this effect.I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
thanks
Again, what other things are you worried about, regardless of the price?
That does not mean it should just turn things off at will. 25000 is not enough to pay to auto turn an ability off.PS:The 25000 gp may be the wrong price.
The fact that your suggestion wants it to turn anything off. Blindsight from the bad guys, gone. Immunity to an ability, gone. DR, gone. Dragons breath weapon, gone. Any other ability, gone.
No spell should automatically turn someone's class features off.I know blur jacks up sneak attack as an example, but it does not turn it off. It is just a symptom of how the 2 interact. That is different than having a spell that just takes something away from anyone without any dice rolls.
Please note that doesn't defeat uncanny dodge though since it doesn't detect anything -- it simply stops me from being denied my dex bonus. Same with blind fight actually."She cannot be detected by any means..." is pretty absolute. If that is not what the designers meant they need to change it. If it was what they meant then they don't need to change it of course.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.
I agree with that, and anything that can foil SA foils this ability since it is based off of SA, well part of it anyway.
Irrelevant to the specific issue--the question is is there a way to remove ability penalties. The answer is yes, Greater Restoration (and note that Miracle can be used to cast this as a Standard Action).Unfortunately it takes 10 rounds to cast. :(Greater Restoration "dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities" and so can address this effect.I think it's supposed to act like ability damage. But that would only concern someone who wants to heal it during combat anyway. All ability penalties disappear over a short time.
My only issue is I don't know how to heal a penalty to an ability score.It might but by RAW I see no way to heal it. It is only about 2 minutes, but that is the entire fight.
This might actually help the ninja since the cleric(other healer) is trying to help a party member instead of making sure the ninja dies.
I was looking for a way to end it in combat. Once the ninja is defeated I am content to wait for things to return to normal. The spell is a good option if you don't have an additional 10 rounds to spare though.
I was looking for a way to end it in combat. Once the ninja is defeated I am content to wait for things to return to normal. The spell is a good option if you don't have an additional 10 rounds to spare though.
Greater restoration isn't a good choice then simply use lesser restoration -- better chance to get the spell off, will handle the penalty just as well. But either way you are waiting at least 3 rounds for the spell... and the penalty only lasts 10 rounds (1 minute).
Please note greater restoration has the same casting time as lesser restoration because it specifically notes it functions like lesser restoration instead of normal restoration (which means you use lesser restoration's spell stats except where they differ).
Peter, I'm curious, how would you word the ninja's 20th level ability, to your satisfaction, while still keeping in mind that we're talking about 20 levels of the stealthiest class in the game, so the rule of awesome still has to apply?
prototype00
I was looking for a way to end it in combat. Once the ninja is defeated I am content to wait for things to return to normal. The spell is a good option if you don't have an additional 10 rounds to spare though.Greater restoration isn't a good choice then simply use lesser restoration -- better chance to get the spell off, will handle the penalty just as well. But either way you are waiting at least 3 rounds for the spell... and the penalty only lasts 10 rounds (1 minute).
Please note greater restoration has the same casting time as lesser restoration because it specifically notes it functions like lesser restoration instead of normal restoration (which means you use lesser restoration's spell stats except where they differ).
Lesser restoration removes ability damage not penalties. Only greater does that.
You didn't get how what I said is pertaining to your complaint about the ninja being overpowered?I'm honestly not sure. I might have not seen it, or I might have just ignored it because it was to inane to even bother to respond.
Fine, I'll illustrate. The ninja gets the equivalent to a capstone ability, at level 10. That is indicative of a very powerful class. There are counters to this, it's just that you then have to deal with a 50% miss chance. Figure out where he's standing, start swinging, eat 50% miss chance, eventually kill him, in theory.
Not melee? Figure out his square, shoot him, don't worry about the 50% miss chance, thanks to improved precise shot.
Caster? Area of effect spells.
If you realize the ninja is there, the fight becomes a lot more even. Otherwise: they are assassins, they kill people, they are notoriously efficient at it, it's a level 20 ability, something most people will never see, and you should stop trying to ruin the fun of others by complaining.
Ok, yeah, I probably ignored you because your entire commentary fails to address the critical problem: how do you know where he is? You take the time to point out how easy it is to beat him once you know where he is. That's great. How exactly do you know where he is? How long does that take? How many attacks does he get off while you try and detect him with true seeing, wish, or invisibility purge?
Ranged attackers are nasty.
To detect an invisible attack it's a DC 20 perception check. Invisibility gives +20 stealth bonus while moving. If the ninja is attacking they are moving. Since you can't use stealth when attacking the DC to notice them with perception is 0. They still have concealment but it's simple to notice them and make an attack. The ninja could then stealth away due to the concealment and sneak in for another attack after healing a bit.
To detect an invisible attack it's a DC 20 perception check. Invisibility gives +20 stealth bonus while moving. If the ninja is attacking they are moving. Since you can't use stealth when attacking the DC to notice them with perception is 0. They still have concealment but it's simple to notice them and make an attack. The ninja could then stealth away due to the concealment and sneak in for another attack after healing a bit.
Now the funny bit is that little sentence that states "cannot be detected by any means" which is really throwing everything off.
In all honestly to me the way you described it would be essentially how it would and should work.
Lesser restoration removes ability damage not penalties. Only greater does that.
I was looking for a way to end it in combat. Once the ninja is defeated I am content to wait for things to return to normal. The spell is a good option if you don't have an additional 10 rounds to spare though.Greater restoration isn't a good choice then simply use lesser restoration -- better chance to get the spell off, will handle the penalty just as well. But either way you are waiting at least 3 rounds for the spell... and the penalty only lasts 10 rounds (1 minute).
Please note greater restoration has the same casting time as lesser restoration because it specifically notes it functions like lesser restoration instead of normal restoration (which means you use lesser restoration's spell stats except where they differ).
Not true. I'll post lesser again (I did once).
Restoration, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 1
CASTINGCasting Time 3 rounds
Components V, S
EFFECTRange touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
DESCRIPTIONLesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject's ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
It's a magical effect that is reducing an ability score.
Please note that greater uses the exact same language but also includes extraordinary things that provide a penalty and then states about all ability damage and drain as well.
Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject's ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
It's a magical effect that is reducing an ability score.
Please note that greater uses the exact same language but also includes extraordinary things that provide a penalty and then states about all ability damage and drain as well.
I never noticed that before. Thanks.
I never noticed that before. Thanks.
Hmm, I'd never noticed that bit either! So, removing the ability penalty from Hidden Master = drink a potion of lesser restoration as a standard action.
So? We're not talking about die rolls here.
It also has rules on what it can do. It can force a re-roll, but not cause an automatic failure.
I know that, you're talking about magic tea party type stuff, but it seemed like the closest analogy would be the ninja auto-failing his stealth roll.
Yeah hidden master is nice... but it's not the end of the world or anything.
I mean really Master Spy gets the "you can't detect me at all" ability earlier than the Ninja does.
And there are simply too many ways to defend against anything the Ninja will do with it, in addition to the fact that almost everyone else's capstone abilities negate his ability to hurt them with sneak attack, (or they have uncanny dodge/blind fighting).
wait could you sneak up on pharisma and murder her ?
So don't detect the ninja. "I wish my companions and I could see whatever weapon is inflicting these horrible wounds." Or all weapons in the room were visible. Or the clothing of the one inflicting these wounds. Or. . .
Other actions have already been shown to counter this, controlling the battle field, holding actions to initiate grapples, teleporting out and teleporting back, having concealment, having uncanny dodge,
That said, I don't have a problem with a character at 20th level inflicting 100 points of fake hp damage on a strike as long as they can't do it with every strike. .
Finally, on the topic of politeness, this is the internet, there's no requirement people be polite, no one's going to arrest you if you aren't, no one's going to take you out behind a barn and whoop you, so yeah, you can talk however big a game as you want to talk. Congratulations. But if you really want intelligent and meaningful discussion, honey works much better than vinegar.
That is just another way to detect the ninja, and the swords are invisible per his special ability.
If "I wish the ninja hadn't done that thing and turned invisible" seems an unreasonable use of the spell to some people, how about "I wish my friends all had Uncanny Dodge for the next 2 minutes"?
Frankly, I think wish is overkill and any number of lower level spells solve the problem (and no, not in quasi-revealing ways -- I detailed a few a bunch of posts up), but I still don't see any way Hidden Master stands up to even moderately creative use of Wish or Miracle, which come out 3 levels earlier, if push comes to shove. 20th level is so far into crazytown, the much-derided Mystic Theurge has Wish and Miracle.
wait could you sneak up on pharisma and murder her ?
Only if it was destiny.
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I removed a bunch of posts. And the replies to those posts. And the replies to those posts. And so on.
Play nice.
Flag it and move on.
It is unnecessary to post to say you're ignoring something or someone. If you're ignoring it, you don't need to reply. If you do reply, then you're not ignoring it, you're just trying to get the last word in.
Finally, on the topic of politeness, this is the internet, there's no requirement people be polite, no one's going to arrest you if you aren't, no one's going to take you out behind a barn and whoop you, so yeah, you can talk however big a game as you want to talk. Congratulations. But if you really want intelligent and meaningful discussion, honey works much better than vinegar.
Actually, "Don't be a jerk." is the most important messageboard rule here. So there is a requirement to be polite.
wait could you sneak up on pharisma and murder her ?Only if it was destiny.
we make our own destiny!
-Sarah Conner
I would allow the Wish to automatically target the ninja with a dispel magic, but not automatically turn it off since that would set a precedent for automatically turning other things off.And this is a problem why? We're talking about Wish, it's supposed to be the most powerful spell, right? And cost a bundle to use as well.
What other things are you concerned about?
That does not mean it should just turn things off at will. 25000 is not enough to pay to auto turn an ability off.
PS:The 25000 gp may be the wrong price.
You seem to be concerned about the balance of it.
With respect, I disagree. Limited wish will bestow a whopping -7 penalty to a saving throw automatically. Turning off an ongoing ability in the short term with ACTUAL wish is NOT more powerful than that.
I agree with the detecting items on the ninja or the weapons said ninja is using. That seems like a legit way to figure out where they may be. It doesn't violate the "undetectability" of the ninja. In fact if he's worried about them figuring out where he is he can just drop the weapon or item. You never detected him you detected an inanimate object currently in their possession that they can discard and still remain undetected. Mind if the ninja was using unarmed strikes I would NOT let it detect as his hands are a part of him and therefor protected by his undetectableness.
1) Anyone with Uncanny Dodge just sort of shrugs at this. 2nd level barbarian? Well, probably a 20th level ninja can beat him in melee, but he can't sneak attack him without a flanking buddy.
This.
And Blind-Fighting.Yes, a simple feat available to all, with no prerequisites, can screw over a 20th level class ability. To all those who say that Blind-Fighting is a dump feat, I say "LOL".
The ability states that they can not be detected, says nothing about the ability not being able to be dispelled. Greater Dispell Magic should do the trick.
Seriously? Why do you even bother posting when you can't be bothered to read the ability? Supernatural ability = no dispel magic.
The OP is right. detection is not just being able to see them. It's about knowing of their existence as well. Thus people couldn't detect him because of the wounds he was giving because they would be violating how the mechanic works. The only thing I have to say about sneak attack can be countered is that guess what. Ninja's nearly always go first and are probably the ones getting the surprise round. The only means you have of defeating a ninja that has that feature would be relying on spells that don't require detection to kill him. However I'll also address that the OP is just flame baiting all of you into an argument about a poorly worded mechanic.
Ninja's nearly always go first and are probably the ones getting the surprise round.
Surprise round... which will be one attack IF the ninja is in place to deliver it. Assuming he's already Hidden Master'd up before getting near you.
The scenario that the OP was trolling with was a 20 ninja fighting a bunch of, say, 17thish level characters. You're not especially likely to beat a whole party of them to initiative on the first full round even if you get one surprise attack off.
Eh. It all sounds very nice on paper but there's about 100 same CR things I'd be more afraid of killing me.
1) Anyone with Uncanny Dodge just sort of shrugs at this. 2nd level barbarian? Well, probably a 20th level ninja can beat him in melee, but he can't sneak attack him without a flanking buddy.This.
And Blind-Fighting.
Yes, a simple feat available to all, with no prerequisites, can screw over a 20th level class ability. To all those who say that Blind-Fighting is a dump feat, I say "LOL".
To be fair, the ninja could go ranged to beat Blind Fight.
But that sort of gets back to what I said about there being various counters to sneak, and various counters to most of the counters, etc. Certainly I'd agree with you that even a fighter has a lot of options that aren't just 'sit there and take it'.
The OP is right. detection is not just being able to see them. It's about knowing of their existence as well. Thus people couldn't detect him because of the wounds he was giving because they would be violating how the mechanic works. The only thing I have to say about sneak attack can be countered is that guess what. Ninja's nearly always go first and are probably the ones getting the surprise round. The only means you have of defeating a ninja that has that feature would be relying on spells that don't require detection to kill him.
Ninjas always go after Diviner wizards. They can't sneak attack most sorcerers (capstone immunity to critical), they can't sneak attack several fighter archetypes. Blind fighting doesn't detect them -- it simply allows you to keep your dex mod so anyone with that can't be sneak attacked (or with uncanny dodge). Alchemist will probably have heavy fortification from class abilities making him mostly immune to sneak attack.
So on and so forth.
Is it a nice ability? Sure -- is it ungodly powerful? No.
After all the master spy gets it faster.
1) Anyone with Uncanny Dodge just sort of shrugs at this. 2nd level barbarian? Well, probably a 20th level ninja can beat him in melee, but he can't sneak attack him without a flanking buddy.This.
And Blind-Fighting.
Yes, a simple feat available to all, with no prerequisites, can screw over a 20th level class ability. To all those who say that Blind-Fighting is a dump feat, I say "LOL".To be fair, the ninja could go ranged to beat Blind Fight.
But that sort of gets back to what I said about there being various counters to sneak, and various counters to most of the counters, etc. Certainly I'd agree with you that even a fighter has a lot of options that aren't just 'sit there and take it'.
Improved and greater blind fighting can help too -- but yes we are in agreement on it being nice but not 100%.
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First of all, this thread is win and has amused me greatly.
Second:
Not melee? Figure out his square, shoot him, don't worry about the 50% miss chance, thanks to improved precise shot.
Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
Just wanted to clear that up, as most people don't pick up on the difference between total concealment (50%) and just concealment (20%).
Third; does "cannot detect by any means" override things like plain old pinpointing of the square the ninja is in? If not then simple things like
"If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him "
will tumble a ninja pretty quick.
Or how about
"A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature's current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown."
is the ninja now literally untouchable?
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Seriously? Why do you even bother posting when you can't be bothered to read the ability? Supernatural ability = no dispel magic.
The ability states that they can not be detected, says nothing about the ability not being able to be dispelled. Greater Dispell Magic should do the trick.
I read the ability, though I did miss the SU next to it. Ok so dispel magic doesnt work, but antimagic field does, so there is your counter, now can we stop crying about it?
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Level 20 Ninja uses Hidden Master !... level 20 Ninja vanishes.
DUNGEON uses level 1/8 Closed Door.It's super effective !
Level 1 Commoner detects Ninja.
Level 20 Ninja faints.
Level 1/8 Closed Door gains 1 XP.
ya its hard to say how you would oounter something until you know the enviroment, this is an easy fix, or if you are outside maybe fly up, blink, teleport, cast invisibilty yourself. This ability is far from being OP, if any thing it finally makes rog/ninja types a bit more on par with the rest.
Level 20 Ninja uses Hidden Master !... level 20 Ninja vanishes.
DUNGEON uses level 1/8 Closed Door.It's super effective !
Level 1 Commoner detects Ninja.
Level 20 Ninja faints.
Level 1/8 Closed Door gains 1 XP.
Sorry. Can't detect the ninja by any means. At all.
Doorfailz.
Lv1 Commoner derps along.
NinjaWin!
"While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means" is such a broad statement that it requires DM adjudication for every specific circumstance. They really could have made it much more specific to remove such silliness as...
"I, McNinjaSan, open the door! You can't tell I opened the door because that would DETECT ME! SO IT WAS CLOSED THE WHOLE TIME!"
or
"Even though I STABBED YOU... you have no idea I stabbed you and can't pinpoint my square because that's DETECTING ME!"
I don't think for a second that any sane GM wouldn't huck a Core Rulebook at a player making those, or similar, statements, but the way the ability is written, it could fly per RAW. Definately not RAI.
At least, I hope not.
Logic fail -- I detect the door opened -- doesn't mean I detect WHY it opened.
Logic fail -- I detect the door opened -- doesn't mean I detect WHY it opened.
Because someone opened it.
Someone is ninja.
You detected that someone opened the door, but you cannot detect the ninja by any means.
Ergo, you do not detect the door opening. For if you did, you would be aware that there was someone there, which by RAW, you can't if it's a ninja using Hidden Master.
Logic does not exist. There is only RAW.
~Friendly Neighborhood Hyperbole Brought To You By TEG~
Really, the case can, sadly, be made by how this ability is written using only RAW.
Would I ever allow a 20th-level ninja that much leeway with the ability? Hells no. That's just plain dumb.
Logic fail -- I detect the door opened -- doesn't mean I detect WHY it opened.
Error 707
Logic fail -- I detect the door opened -- doesn't mean I detect WHY it opened.Because someone opened it.
Again a fail -- did someone open it? Or was it magic -- because you know magic obviously exists in such a world -- and even if someone did I don't know who or what or where they are -- an arcane trickster could do it from across the room while invisible for example.
All I know is that a door opened. That's enough to wonder but not enough to tell me who, how, or why.
Also the door isn't an attended object and as such isn't covered by the ninja's ability since that only covers his attended objects.
I could just as easily say the ninja can't do anything to hurt anyone since that would make him detectable and therefore he can't do it as it would alert someone to his presence and nothing can reveal his presence. If I can't detect the door opening I can't detect the wounds which means they can't happen, since if they happen they have to come from somewhere and that means I'm detecting the ninja.
In fact he himself cannot even acknowledge his own presence since that would be detecting himself.
So in effect by using his capstone he removes himself from reality and doesn't even know it and doesn't know it happened and can't even end it since that would reveal himself and he can't be detected (even by himself) by any means inlcuding revealing himself (since that is a means of detecting him).
Your 20th level ability is to remove yourself from the game -- congratulations.
Logic fail -- I detect the door opened -- doesn't mean I detect WHY it opened.Because someone opened it.
Again a fail -- did someone open it? Or was it magic -- because you know magic obviously exists in such a world -- and even if someone did I don't know who or what or where they are -- an arcane trickster could do it from across the room while invisible for example.
All I know is that a door opened. That's enough to wonder but not enough to tell me who, how, or why.
Also the door isn't an attended object and as such isn't covered by the ninja's ability since that only covers his attended objects.
I could just as easily say the ninja can't do anything to hurt anyone since that would make him detectable and therefore he can't do it as it would alert someone to his presence and nothing can reveal his presence. If I can't detect the door opening I can't detect the wounds which means they can't happen, since if they happen they have to come from somewhere and that means I'm detecting the ninja.
In fact he himself cannot even acknowledge his own presence since that would be detecting himself.
So in effect by using his capstone he removes himself from reality and doesn't even know it and doesn't know it happened and can't even end it since that would reveal himself and he can't be detected (even by himself) by any means inlcuding revealing himself (since that is a means of detecting him).
Your 20th level ability is to remove yourself from the game -- congratulations.
Well, not from reality, but he is undetectable. To anyone or anything.
But don't worry, the ninja will be detectable in about 20 rounds (even to himself). So not all is lost.
Not knowing why the door opened is irrelevant. The fact is that by opening it, the ninja would be detected, and that's not happening with the ability. There's a cobweb in front of the door and he walks through it? Sorry, ripping that cobweb would "detect" him. Doesn't matter if the watcher doesn't know it's the ninja doing it. Does the cobweb not break? WTF? We're talking RAW here, not logic. EDIT: Okay, the door example is kinda reaching, I admit.
But see, he can hurt someone, it's just that the creature wouldn't know where the attack came from because that would be detecting him. They'd just be like "Damn, something shanked me but I can't tell from where even though I was just hit by a knife... I think!"
Things happen, you just can't detect them. The ability doesn't invalidate the actions, it just makes it so that, regardless of what the ninja does, you can't detect him. Period. End of story. He could run at you wearing magical singing tap-dance shoes, screaming at the top of his lungs, then proceed to pee on you for the rest of the round and you still wouldn't have a clue where he was.
He can't even detect himself, as you pointed out!
This is RAW.
And totally insane.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just stating RAW here. Not logic. Not common sense, or DM adjudication. By the wording, iz crazy-go-nuts-awesome as far as not being found goes.