How have players found the Martial Artist archetype for the Monk from Ultimate Combat? Looking at it, I really like it mechanically and having access to Weapon Focus/Specialization really excites me.
The thing I like best about it is that it makes a good reason to multi-class monk more. Barbarian Martial Artists anyone? I can now have a Martial Arts monastery dedicated to Cayden Cailean (Sweet) Gives much love for my Monk/Rogue Strangle build.
Overall I like the Martial Artist Monk and the Qinggong Monk the best.
+1 to what Realmwalker said
Also a Rogue-with-Ki-Pool multiclassed Martial Artist can use his pool to use abundant step (which is retained as a MA Monk) and dimensional feats!
As someone who LOVES old-school martial arts movies, along with anything VanDamme and Jackie chan related... THIS is the class i was hoping for!
Keep all that mystical ki crap... and let me go to town with the flurry of blows and whatever Alignment I want....
Also love the Master of all Styles... would TOTALLY use that one too if it wasn't for the alignment restrictions >.<
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As someone who LOVES old-school martial arts movies, along with anything VanDamme and Jackie chan related... THIS is the class i was hoping for!
Keep all that mystical ki crap... and let me go to town with the flurry of blows and whatever Alignment I want....
Also love the Master of all Styles... would TOTALLY use that one too if it wasn't for the alignment restrictions >.<
i would say that the maneuver master is a better interpretation of jacki chan. very awesome with improved dirty trick (blind), followed by a G-trip, into a stomp then a TWF build. a very flashy, and effective type of fighter.
i would say that the maneuver master is a better interpretation of jacki chan. very awesome with improved dirty trick (blind), followed by a G-trip, into a stomp then a TWF build. a very flashy, and effective type of fighter.As someone who LOVES old-school martial arts movies, along with anything VanDamme and Jackie chan related... THIS is the class i was hoping for!
Keep all that mystical ki crap... and let me go to town with the flurry of blows and whatever Alignment I want....
Also love the Master of all Styles... would TOTALLY use that one too if it wasn't for the alignment restrictions >.<
ROFL
Nice :)
Don't forget some kind of improvised weapon feats in there!!! My main point had always been the 'must be lawful' thing, when every martial arts movie i like has the main hero at LEAST neutral, probably chaotic.
Hence my love for Martial artist. But yeah, i could have a lot of fun with Maneuver master....
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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+1 to what Realmwalker said
Also a Rogue-with-Ki-Pool multiclassed Martial Artist can use his pool to use abundant step (which is retained as a MA Monk) and dimensional feats!
RAI, that was an accidental omission, leaving abundant step in.
RAW, though... go nuts with it until they get around to FAQing it!
+1 to what Realmwalker said
Also a Rogue-with-Ki-Pool multiclassed Martial Artist can use his pool to use abundant step (which is retained as a MA Monk) and dimensional feats!
RAI, that was an accidental omission, leaving abundant step in.
RAW, though... go nuts with it until they get around to FAQing it!
I should have known that! :D Thanks for that BTW
Sorry, but I saw it as a lackluster effort to quell the "Any-alignment-monk" minority out there (of which I'm a part). Even now, I see no reason why the ki-using monk is stuck with a lawful alignment (the two exceptions being Ki Strike (Lawful) and the DR 10/Chaotic aspect of Perfect Self, both of which could have been rewritten to be all-alignment friendly).
I'll acknowledge that they are beginning to think outside the "monks-are-disciplined=monks-are-lawful" box, but this isn't anywhere near satisfactory.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Sorry, but I saw it as a lackluster effort to quell the "Any-alignment-monk" minority out there (of which I'm a part). Even now, I see no reason why the ki-using monk is stuck with a lawful alignment (the two exceptions being Ki Strike (Lawful) and the DR 10/Chaotic aspect of Perfect Self, both of which could have been rewritten to be all-alignment friendly).
I'll acknowledge that they are beginning to think outside the "monks-are-disciplined=monks-are-lawful" box, but this isn't anywhere near satisfactory.
The reason is probably pretty simple: backwards compatibility.
Whether in the end it was a brilliant move or a misguided one, the PFRPG was designed quite intentionally as a successor to its OGL predecessor and its antecedents, and on a great many counts it carried forth legacy design decisions for the sake of tradition. You may find that an unsatisfying reason for "monks = lawful" and similar bits, but that's probably the truest reason.
Now, aside from your philosophical objections to the "monks = lawful" paradigm, is there something specific about the Martial Artist archetype in and of itself that you judge "isn't anywhere near satisfactory"?
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Hmm, I've heard complaints about Paizo using a lot, too much even, existing class features to formulate new archetypes and alternate classes(see weapon training) I reckon some people might not like the new Martial Artist archetype since it feels too samey with, for instance, the Unarmed Fighter archetype. I don't agree, personally. I think actual new mechanics should be used in moderation, since they frequently require testing in order to work and therefore I like the fact that many classes get the equivalent of the Paladin weapon bond, for instance. Be it the Magus arcane pool or the Arcane Duelist bladethirst. It's elegant and flavourful, I feel. Not everyone does, however.
Some unrelated musings:
In any case, there's one thing to be said about alignment and ki pool features: The Ninja. Any alignment and being based on Charisma is paradigm-dictating, don't you think? Like spell-like abilities being based on Charisma? Wisdom and lawfulness walking hand-to-hand and bequeathing mind powers seems to be a design statement, something definite. What about Intelligence then? The Ninja's supernatural abilities are based on, rather irritatingly for some people I might add, his force of personality and kind of subterfuge Paizo had in mind when designing this Eastern assassin. Intelligence could very well be the introspective side of ki. Chaotic alignment? Possible Vudran mind magic? We'll see.
It's okay, but I actually wasn't very happy with how it works for multiclasses. You lose still mind, ergo can't take monastic legacy. You lose the ki pool, and the replacement feature - while cool - doesn't work quite as well for multiclass monks as it's keyed off the MA's class levels.
It's a pity because I wanted to try a monk/barbarian, but at the end of the day you don't need the martial artist for that; any monk can do it if you change alignment, as you retain all monk abilities. Then again, I'd much prefer to remove alignment restrictions on all classes apart from divine casters (whose powers come from a conscious external source, and are thus subject to its approval).
@ Jason - bards lost their alignment restriction in Pathfinder, so it could be done.
Now, aside from your philosophical objections to the "monks = lawful" paradigm, is there something specific about the Martial Artist archetype in and of itself that you judge "isn't anywhere near satisfactory"?
Mostly that you need to use a swift action every round to try to activate Exploit Weakness. It adds another constant roll into the round.
It also makes the action economy of the Martial Artist noticeably worse than many other classes. There are a lot of special abilities which require a swift action to activate.
And that you basically got a 50/50 chance to activate Exploit Weakness every round, for your whole career. I'd have preferred a more reliable method, similar to the Ki Pool, Rage, etc.. The ability may abandon you for a crucial fight through pure bad luck, which doesn't seem very Martial Art-sy to me.
If that could be revised when a FAQ entry comes around, I'd be ecstatic about the archetype.
Exploit weakness is too powerful, IMO.
It's not even 50%. At 4th lvl, you have 4 + wisdom modifier (let's say 2), meaning +6 to beat a DC 10+CR (4 or 5) and if you fail - why, try again next round!
That's what it bothers me, there's no limit whatsoever on the number of uses and is the main reason that DMs in my group will outright ban the whole archetype.
Not to mention that your bonus on that check rises faster than the DC since you're also using Wisdom modifier.
Exploit weakness is too powerful, IMO.
It's not even 50%. At 4th lvl, you have 4 + wisdom modifier (let's say 2), meaning +6 to beat a DC 10+CR (4 or 5) and if you fail - why, try again next round!
That's what it bothers me, there's no limit whatsoever on the number of uses and is the main reason that DMs in my group will outright ban the whole archetype.
Not to mention that your bonus on that check rises faster than the DC since you're also using Wisdom modifier.
So, the fact that you have to potentially waste a swift action each round to try to activate doesn't bother you? You think it too powerful? While giving up the Ki pool and things like the extra attack and all the other benefits?
And the chance to activate the power is way too random. Yeah, against mooks it should activate most of the time at the later levels.
But let's see how it stacks up at, say 10th level against typical opponents:
A Martial Artist built with 15 points will probably start with a 14 or 16 in Wisdom. I personally would only enhance Wisdom via attribute enhancers and I think at level 10 a +4 enhancer can be seen as reasonable.
As such, the check of the Martial Artist to activate Exploit Weakness will be +14 ( Level 10 + Wisdom 18 ) or +15 ( Level 10 + Wisdom 20 ).
The usual encounter for a level 10 group should be CR 12, so the DC is 22. That's a 40% to 35% chance per round to having wasted a swift action. The more epic the encounter, the greater the chance for the Martial Artist to have wasted the swift action, which, uh, seems very strange to me.
And I really don't see the bonuses as so gamebreaking as to have to ban the archetype. It's certainly more powerful in some specific ways than the Monk, but it has other weaknesses which compensate for that- And there are the crippling issues with overcoming DR and enhancing unarmed strikes ( which, grantedly, is an issue for every Monk, until Paizo seems fit to finally fix that ).
I would vastly prefer the Martial Artist to have a limited, but 100% surely activated, resource system, like Ki Pool, Rage, Bane and so on. Which also doesn't eat a swift action every round.
Exploit weakness is too powerful, IMO.
It's not even 50%. At 4th lvl, you have 4 + wisdom modifier (let's say 2), meaning +6 to beat a DC 10+CR (4 or 5) and if you fail - why, try again next round!
That's what it bothers me, there's no limit whatsoever on the number of uses and is the main reason that DMs in my group will outright ban the whole archetype.
Not to mention that your bonus on that check rises faster than the DC since you're also using Wisdom modifier.
So, the fact that you have to potentially waste a swift action each round to try to activate doesn't bother you? You think it too powerful? While giving up the Ki pool and things like the extra attack and all the other benefits?
And the chance to activate the power is way too random. Yeah, against mooks it should activate most of the time at the later levels.
But let's see how it stacks up at, say 10th level against typical opponents:
A Martial Artist built with 15 points will probably start with a 14 or 16 in Wisdom. I personally would only enhance Wisdom via attribute enhancers and I think at level 10 a +4 enhancer can be seen as reasonable.
As such, the check of the Martial Artist to activate Exploit Weakness will be +14 ( Level 10 + Wisdom 18 ) or +15 ( Level 10 + Wisdom 20 ).
The usual encounter for a level 10 group should be CR 12, so the DC is 22. That's a 40% to 35% chance per round to having wasted a swift action. The more epic the encounter, the greater the chance for the Martial Artist to have wasted the swift action, which, uh, seems very strange to me.
And I really don't see the bonuses as so gamebreaking as to have to ban the archetype. It's certainly more powerful in some specific ways than the Monk, but it has other weaknesses which compensate for that- And there are the crippling issues with overcoming DR and enhancing unarmed strikes ( which, grantedly, is an issue for every Monk, until Paizo seems fit to finally fix that ).
I would vastly prefer...
Agree completely. I thought it was pretty good at first myself until I realized that as you get into higher levels the DC becomes more and more nigh impossible to make. Eventually unless you've unreasonably invested into wisdom it becomes quite a terrible ability to waste an action on.
The usual encounter for a level 10 group should be CR 12, so the DC is 22. That's a 40% to 35% chance per round to having wasted a swift action. The more epic the encounter, the greater the chance for the Martial Artist to have wasted the swift action, which, uh, seems very strange to me.
Swift actions are not that important. What else is he going to use it for?
Agree completely. I thought it was pretty good at first myself until I realized that as you get into higher levels the DC becomes more and more nigh impossible to make.
But... He just said that chance for Exploit Weakness to succeed is 65-70%. How is that nigh impossible? Pretty good odds to get a +2 on attack rolls and bypass DR.
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The usual encounter for a level 10 group should be CR 12, so the DC is 22. That's a 40% to 35% chance per round to having wasted a swift action. The more epic the encounter, the greater the chance for the Martial Artist to have wasted the swift action, which, uh, seems very strange to me.Swift actions are not that important. What else is he going to use it for?
Agree completely. I thought it was pretty good at first myself until I realized that as you get into higher levels the DC becomes more and more nigh impossible to make.But... He just said that chance for Exploit Weakness to succeed is 65-70%. How is that nigh impossible? Pretty good odds to get a +2 on attack rolls and bypass DR.
this is why i hate stunning fist
if i were going to multiclass rogue/monk or ninja/monk to get my ki pool back, martial artist with sensei would be an insane build. i would go something like 9 monk 11 rogue/ninja with a monks belt at 20 i would hit just as hard and 35% more often stacking wisdom and using it as my to hit stat. very nasty build with very nasty damage potential.
and if im not mistaken ninja tricks would be a choice for your senei class ability "mystic wisdom"
i wouldn't call it broken though.
Swift actions are not that important. What else is he going to use it for?
There are lots of feats, items and abilities which ask for a swift actions to activate them. Making the activation of Exploit Weakness an additional action tax makes the Martial Artist quite less versatile than it appears at first glance, unnecessarily so, IMO.
But... He just said that chance for Exploit Weakness to succeed is 65-70%. How is that nigh impossible? Pretty good odds to get a +2 on attack rolls and bypass DR.
Paladins ignore DR and get a much higher bonus to attack and damage... on demand. Sure, it "only" works against evil opponents ( so, about 90% of enemies of most campaigns ), but it is on demand and always works when its on... for as long as that particular enemy stays alive.
I'd be ecstatic if Exploit Weakness would be handled like Smite Evil.
this is why i hate stunning fist
if i were going to multiclass rogue/monk or ninja/monk to get my ki pool back, martial artist with sensei would be an insane build. i would go something like 9 monk 11 rogue/ninja with a monks belt at 20 i would hit just as hard and 35% more often stacking wisdom and using it as my to hit stat. very nasty build with very nasty damage potential.
and if im not mistaken ninja tricks would be a choice for your senei class ability "mystic wisdom"
i wouldn't call it broken though.
Uh, Martial Artist doesn't get a Ki Pool? Hence you cannot stack it with Sensei.
Uh, Martial Artist doesn't get a Ki Pool? Hence you cannot stack it with Sensei.this is why i hate stunning fist
if i were going to multiclass rogue/monk or ninja/monk to get my ki pool back, martial artist with sensei would be an insane build. i would go something like 9 monk 11 rogue/ninja with a monks belt at 20 i would hit just as hard and 35% more often stacking wisdom and using it as my to hit stat. very nasty build with very nasty damage potential.
and if im not mistaken ninja tricks would be a choice for your senei class ability "mystic wisdom"
i wouldn't call it broken though.
Strangely enough, since the ability does not exactly require you to have a ki pool, you can still be a martial artist sensei...BUT you will not be able to use your Mystic Wisdom ability, AND you will STILL lose your level 6, 12 and 18 bonus feats. You essentially have an ability that you have no way to use (unless you get a ki pool in some other way).
However, as a dip up to level 4 (or 5 if you really want fatigue immunity), a martial artist sensei is quite viable.
Swift actions are not that important. What else is he going to use it for?There are lots of feats, items and abilities which ask for a swift actions to activate them. Making the activation of Exploit Weakness an additional action tax makes the Martial Artist quite less versatile than it appears at first glance, unnecessarily so, IMO.
But... He just said that chance for Exploit Weakness to succeed is 65-70%. How is that nigh impossible? Pretty good odds to get a +2 on attack rolls and bypass DR.Paladins ignore DR and get a much higher bonus to attack and damage... on demand. Sure, it "only" works against evil opponents ( so, about 90% of enemies of most campaigns ), but it is on demand and always works when its on... for as long as that particular enemy stays alive.
I'd be ecstatic if Exploit Weakness would be handled like Smite Evil.
Smite Evil is a notoriously broken ability and using it as an example doesn't really mean much in comparisson to Exploit Weakness.
Personally, if someone would want to play Martial Artist monk in my campaign, I'd just give them a ki pool (not the real one, just a number of points) and every use gives the bonuses of Exploit Weakness for 1 round. That way you eliminate the potential unlimited uses of it and reduce the number of dice rolls in combat.
Smite Evil is a notoriously broken ability and using it as an example doesn't really mean much in comparisson to Exploit Weakness.
No, it really isn't, if compared to the "on use" abilities of the classes after the core rule book.
Personally, if someone would want to play Martial Artist monk in my campaign, I'd just give them a ki pool (not the real one, just a number of points) and every use gives the bonuses of Exploit Weakness for 1 round. That way you eliminate the potential unlimited uses of it and reduce the number of dice rolls in combat.
If activating it would be a free action and one wouldn't have to roll for it, that might be viable. I'd personally make it last until designated enemy is defeated, like Smite Evil.
Smite Evil is a notoriously broken ability and using it as an example doesn't really mean much in comparisson to Exploit Weakness.
Smite evil...hmm...hey Paladin, before you get to me, say hello to my neutral-aligned mercenary henchmen. Oh by the way...I'm a spellcaster: so quickened true strike and pilfering hand on your holy avenger.
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Uh, Martial Artist doesn't get a Ki Pool? Hence you cannot stack it with Sensei.
you can actually, and ki pool from mixing ninja would allow you to activate your sensei class ability. and since it dosent say, in the sensei ability mystic wisdom, which "class features" can be activated through it, ninja tricks would be allowed to be used in conjunction. so i could make everyone in a 30 foot radius activate "shadow clone". so yeah....
Smite evil...hmm...hey Paladin, before you get to me, say hello to my neutral-aligned mercenary henchmen. Oh by the way...I'm a spellcaster: so quickened true strike and pilfering hand on your holy avenger.
Smite Evil is a notoriously broken ability and using it as an example doesn't really mean much in comparisson to Exploit Weakness.
Paladin: Say hello to the rest of my party, whose abilities aren't dependant on alignment. No weapon? No problem, I'll just take a random weapon Weapon Bond it or cast Holy Sword on it, good as new. Or use a Locked Gauntlet. Good luck on that CMB roll.
So you just traded a quickened spell and a spell for a move action (drawing a weapon) and standard action (weapon bond or holy sword).
No, it really isn't, if compared to the "on use" abilities of the classes after the core rule book.
Hahah. Ok, if you think Smite Evil isn't OP, then I guess compared to it, Exploit Weakness isn't also. But since we have vastly different opinions on what is broken and what isn't, this conversation doesn't have any sense and I'll be removing myself from it.
you can actually, and ki pool from mixing ninja would allow you to activate your sensei class ability. and since it dosent say, in the sensei ability mystic wisdom, which "class features" can be activated through it, ninja tricks would be allowed to be used in conjunction. so i could make everyone in a 30 foot radius activate "shadow clone". so yeah....
Uh, Martial Artist doesn't get a Ki Pool? Hence you cannot stack it with Sensei.
So blatant powergaming wouldn't fly in my game, but to each his own. ^^
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So blatant powergaming wouldn't fly in my game, but to each his own. ^^
you think thats power gaming? wow remind me not to get into your game.
to me power-gaming is fighter 1, wizard 5, arcane archer 4, eldrich knight 10. level 8 spells as a wizard and 50+ points of damage on a ranged attack with 7 attacks per round. that is power gaming, this monk build doesn't hold a candle to that build.
this is an exploit BIIIIIGGGGGG difference between the 2.
So blatant powergaming wouldn't fly in my game, but to each his own. ^^
you think thats power gaming? wow remind me not to get into your game.
to me power-gaming is fighter 1, wizard 5, arcane archer 4, eldrich knight 10. level 8 spells as a wizard and 50+ points of damage on a ranged attack with 7 attacks per round. that is power gaming, this monk build doesn't hold a candle to that build.
this is an exploit BIIIIIGGGGGG difference between the 2.
Blatant powergaming is mixing an archetype which removes the Ki Pool with another archetype which has it, then adding the Ninja and saying "Hey, Ki will be adjudicated with Wisdom, so that I can max out Wisdom and do my attacks over the stat, although the Martial Artist has no Ki Pool."
That's just RAW over RAI rule exploitation at its finest and I quite hate that kind of stuff. YMMV, of course.
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Blatant powergaming is mixing an archetype which removes the Ki Pool with another archetype which has it, then adding the Ninja and saying "Hey, Ki will be adjudicated with Wisdom, so that I can max out Wisdom and do my attacks over the stat, although the Martial Artist has no Ki Pool."
That's just RAW over RAI rule exploitation at its finest and I quite hate that kind of stuff. YMMV, of course.
you cant do that, my monk no longer has wisdom as a ki pool stat, there for only my cha is applicable. and as i said before it is NOT power gaming, if you dont like exploits then petition paizo to word their abilities so that is impossible.
personally exploits are perfectly acceptable so long as what they do isn't a factor for derailing a cr appropriate encounter. this class is NOT a power gaming build.
lets just agree that you meant to say exploit and not power gaming. defing these terms is important because it cuts down on misinterpretation and arguments due to misuse of a term that is derogatory.
The usual encounter for a level 10 group should be CR 12, so the DC is 22. That's a 40% to 35% chance per round to having wasted a swift action. The more epic the encounter, the greater the chance for the Martial Artist to have wasted the swift action, which, uh, seems very strange to me.Swift actions are not that important. What else is he going to use it for?
Agree completely. I thought it was pretty good at first myself until I realized that as you get into higher levels the DC becomes more and more nigh impossible to make.But... He just said that chance for Exploit Weakness to succeed is 65-70%. How is that nigh impossible? Pretty good odds to get a +2 on attack rolls and bypass DR.
Hmmm didnt read the aprt where you add your level to it. Still it's a difficult roll to make and is almost never guaranteed.
The reason is probably pretty simple: backwards compatibility.
Whether in the end it was a brilliant move or a misguided one, the PFRPG was designed quite intentionally as a successor to its OGL predecessor and its antecedents, and on a great many counts it carried forth legacy design decisions for the sake of tradition. You may find that an unsatisfying reason for "monks = lawful" and similar bits, but that's probably the truest reason.
Now, aside from your philosophical objections to the "monks = lawful" paradigm, is there something specific about the Martial Artist archetype in and of itself that you judge "isn't anywhere near satisfactory"?
Tell me about the Bard and the Samurai (at least three (depending on what you define as 3rd edition material, four) different versions in the past edition (OA, Rokugan, and Complete Warrior), all of which had to be "any lawful" and adhere to a specific code of conduct on top of that) before you mention backwards compatibility (and yes, I realize that this is merely your guess as to Paizo's reasoning and does not speak to how highly or not you hold their reasoning, so this isn't really directed at you).
Now, I can take a Samurai of any alignment and fit him with any code of edicts I please (or even pick one and then disregard it regularly AND continue to be able to take levels in the class and use (with a few exceptions) its class abilities. And I've got even more freedom to play a Bard how I will.
Does a player's capacity to play a Bard with a lawful alignment detract from the capacity of any player to still play a Bard in the more traditional view? I would think not, so you are very correct in supposing that I find "backwards compatibility" to be a poor reason to keep a frickin' Sword of Damocles over the head of anyone wanting to play a ki-using Monk, just so they can retain the option to continue the class the next time they level.
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As to the Martial Artist archetype itself, no, I have no objections. It's just the notion of this being Paizo's attempt to throw us nonlawful-Monk-enthusiasts a bone that I object to.
Hmmm didnt read the aprt where you add your level to it. Still it's a difficult roll to make and is almost never guaranteed.
Rolling a 7 or 8 is... difficult? Not guaranteed - sure, but come on, difficult?!
Rolling a 7 or 8 is... difficult? Not guaranteed - sure, but come on, difficult?!
35-40% chance of your major way to ignore DR or buff your defenses to NOT work? I wouldn't say "difficult", but it's not exactly reliable. Sure, chances are you'll try to buff your wisdom asap, but that costs money and slots. Oh, and you burn whatever other options for swift/immediate actions you might have. Remember, the monk's DR bypassing abilities are constantly on as long as they have a single point of ki remaining.
The kicker is that the martial artist's ability is actually LESS reliable when the opponent's CR is higher - as in, in boss fights. I also consider it a minus that it makes multiclassing even less viable as you won't be able to keep up with the opponents' CR, but that need not be a problem for every build.
Personally, if someone would want to play Martial Artist monk in my campaign, I'd just give them a ki pool (not the real one, just a number of points) and every use gives the bonuses of Exploit Weakness for 1 round. That way you eliminate the potential unlimited uses of it and reduce the number of dice rolls in combat.
The offensive and defensive options are imo generally equivalent to the extra attack/AC from the Ki pool option. I still think you might need to do something about the monk DR options.
Overall, I consider the core monk a bit below average in terms of power, with some archetypes being a bit better. The martial artist is about on par with the regular monk.
After reading all the above I decided to comment. Not that this thread is really going anymore but in the first place Martial artist breaks alot of taboos with Monk. Monk/Barbarian are total opposites. First time I played D&D I was like OOOO Monk OOOO Barbarian *evil minds schemes* oh dammit one can be only lawful one can be only chaotic.
Back then Monks didn't even have KI in the first place so seeing that KI is like the only thing they did that really changed monk besides a couple of restricted bonus feats, trading that away for martial artist who has no KI but instead had levels of Barbarian! badassery in my mind and the GM side of me thinks it is somewhat op. But hey I can just make the fights harder.
Well, that's a blast from the past.
However, I was thinking about the archetype during the last days and what else was rubbing me wrong about it ( aside from the stuff mentioned above ).
What I really dislike is that it shoe-horns all non-mystic martial artist types into one archetype. Want to be a wrestling martial artist? Sorry, you need to be a Tetori Monk. Want to be a master of different fighting styles? Then you need to be a Master of Many Forms Monk.
I don't know, somehow it would seem more natural to me if the base Monk were to be an archetype and there would be more of a division where there are different types of martial artists on the non-mystical side and a bunch of mystical archetypes on the Monk side.
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Want a non lawfull monk use an aasimar with the Enlightened Warrior (Aasimar)trait.
Enlightened Warrior (Aasimar)
You have always found it easy to maintain inner peace and enlightenment that translate well to the battlefield.
Benefit: You may take levels in monk even while maintaining a neutral or neutral good alignment.
