Is Golarion the right setting for me?

[Monele]

I am the proud owner of quite a few Game Mastery / Pathfinder modules as well as the Kingmaker AP and a few volumes of other APs (LoF and SD). I have read through most of these (still going through KM) and I've come to really love the background setting based on these products (articles on gods, ready-to-run towns or locales, etc...)

Based on this, I read up a bit of the Pathfinder wiki, waited for the new Inner Sea book (but it's been delayed) and so I went to buy Guide to the River Kingdoms and the Pathfinder Society one.

Yet, reading about the River Kingdoms, I was not as thrilled as I found things to be a bit too dark and gritty for my tastes. A town like Daggermark is the counter-example of what I'm looking for. That is, I'm more of a "pulp" and swashbuckling person. I prefer light-hearted stories full of adventures, feats of derring-do and colorful characters.

And so, while I'm still going through the two setting book slowly, I feel less and less enthusiasm. Thus my question: have I misjudged the tone of Golarion? Have I been looking at the wrong *parts* of Golarion (seems each area catters to various genres -- pirates, arabian tales, etc.)? Is there still a way to get the tone I'm looking for while using the official products? or am I better off coming up with everything myself?
Also, is anyone else going through campaigns on Golarion which are anything but gritty?

Hopeful for answers,
Monele

[TPKiller]

I'd say that you can find somewhere in Golarion that caters to your tastes. The strength of the setting is in its variety.

If you're looking for high-adventure, Taldor might fit you very nicely. It is a kingdom that is built on extravagance, yet has been in decline for some time. The cities there can provide the backdrop for urbane adventures, while the coast can bring in swashbuckling pirates and give access to other areas.

The truth is that you can get just about any kind of campaign out of Golarion. Some areas lend themselves more easily to certain play styles than others, but its really just what your DM makes it into.

[hogarth]

Monele wrote:

And so, while I'm still going through the two setting book slowly, I feel less and less enthusiasm. Thus my question: have I misjudged the tone of Golarion? Have I been looking at the wrong *parts* of Golarion (seems each area catters to various genres -- pirates, arabian tales, etc.)? Is there still a way to get the tone I'm looking for while using the official products? or am I better off coming up with everything myself?

Also, is anyone else going through campaigns on Golarion which are anything but gritty?

It's hard to say. Many different writers have contributed to the campaign setting, so you're going to get different tones depending on who is writing. Some authors definitely have some "This ain't your momma's D&D!" attitude going on, IMO.

Having said that, some of the areas should be relatively good for "generic D&D" play. For instance, Varisia is more of a typical setting, I think. Qadira/Katapesh should be good for Arabian-style adventures and Osirion should be good for Egyptian-style adventures.

I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed that there was no bog-standard "knights and dragons" D&D country. One of the designers claimed to me that Taldor is supposed to fit that role, but every module I've seen in Taldor (so far) emphasises fops and operas much more than swords and sorcery

[Matthew Morris]

I think, so far, the three 'knights and dragons' areas are Taldor, Cheliax, and Andoran.

Taldor -

Spoiler:

Yes we've had fops and opera. But in reading Taldor I see pleanty of 'traditional types' If I can ever put down Dragon Age and pick up a keyboard, I've a thought of a noble of Taldor whining about how the other nobles do this and that, but his family is poor. When he finally gets out of the city, and the farther away he gets, the worse the roads are etc, he eventually discovers that his family is 'poor' because his father is investing so much back into the lands he controls instead of blowing it like other nobles. And it's still not enough to keep his little section of Taldor from going 'feral'.
Picture the small farming community in decaying Taldor. Once great stone bridges collapsed and now shored up with wood cross the rivers, where farmers try to keep old aquaducts clean to irrigate their exhausted lands. Kids play in the street with inflated pig bladders, poor but not knowing a higher standard of living. Roads with paving stones long since pryed out, to build new homes. They see few 'nobles' except for the tax collector, though grandpa still tells tales of the great shining knights. They don't know who their 'lord' is nor do they really care so long as they can get by.

Andoran -

Spoiler:

Definately the Robin Hood vibe comes here, but this was Taldor long before it was Andoran, and even older civilizations left their mark. This is a place of ruins, wild areas, fae and feral. It is in Andoran you might stumble across a village, self sufficient being led by old priests who don't know, nor care, that they're 'part' of a new nation. Eagle Knights prowl the land, defending the common man against lycanthrope and dragon alike.

Cheliax -

Spoiler:

While the land is ruled by Asmodaeus, it doesn't mean the people are. Again, there's a lot of land. No doubt there are places the law doesn't come often and places where they pull the asmodaeus vestments off as soon as the Hellknights leave and go back to their Desna worshipping

As you can tell, I'm more of a Taldor fan. :-)

As for lighthearted swashbuckling, I'd recommend Taldor. Specifically Cassomir for Pirate- er privateer style adventures with lots of bucklers to swash "Strategically located at the mouth of the Sellen
River, Cassomir also serves Taldor as a trade city, connected as it is to all of the kingdoms that call the shores of the Sellen River home. Trade ships from every nation of the Inner Sea and many beyond can always be found at anchor in Star Bay off Cassomir as the Taldan Imperial Navy performs routine searches and taxation." - Taldor, Echoes of Glory, pg 4 Oppara also is very swashbuckly.

[hogarth]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I think, so far, the three 'knights and dragons' areas are Taldor, Cheliax, and Andoran.

Taldor -

Spoiler:
Yes we've had fops and opera. But in reading Taldor I see plenty of 'traditional types'

Which Taldor adventures are you thinking of, specifically? Or is there a specific part of the Taldor setting book that gives you this impression?

[Gorbacz]

Brevoy is pretty close to a knights'n'dragons feel, with a slight George Martin high-charged politics angle to it. But deffo lots of chargning across the hills after the bad guys there.

[TheWarriorPoet519]

If you want Knights and Dragons as well, I'd recommend Lastwall; if ever there was a Fight the Good Fight and Sally Forth in the name of Glory and Goodness Kingdom, it's Lastwall.

[Matthew Morris]

hogarth wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

I think, so far, the three 'knights and dragons' areas are Taldor, Cheliax, and Andoran.

Taldor -

Spoiler:
Yes we've had fops and opera. But in reading Taldor I see plenty of 'traditional types'

Which Taldor adventures are you thinking of, specifically? Or is there a specific part of the Taldor setting book that gives you this impression?

The setting book actually. I'll look and see if any of the modules are set in Taldor.

Edit: Ok, Blood of Dragonscar is set in Taldor. Guardians of Dragonsfall starts in Augustana, in Andoran (which is part of Taldor, they'll figure it out eventually :P ) Flight of the Red Raven is also Taldor, in the Fog Peaks.

[W E Ray]

Yeah, Golarion has been designed with a classic D&D feel first with a bit of everything else second.

Oh yeah, AND.... since Paizo doesn't have to be quite as pc about their material as Hasbro/WotC, they can get a bit "grungier."

This came up half-way in the first AP, Rise of the Runelords where the first volume was a bit gritty and the next two were really borderline R-rated. A number of people expressed a bit of concern about the new tone of Paizo's products and Lisa, Erik and Jacobs all said that, with the freedom of moving away from Hasbro/WotC, Paizo was gonna try and push the enveloppe a little for the first time but NOT TO BE WORRIED, it was more trying out some new options than any kind of "switch."

I think, all in all, MOST of Paizo's stuff is pretty PG or PG-13.

[hogarth]

Matthew Morris wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Which Taldor adventures are you thinking of, specifically? Or is there a specific part of the Taldor setting book that gives you this impression?

The setting book actually.

I meant is there a particular paragraph or sentence in the setting book that springs to mind.

[Cpt_kirstov]

Matthew Morris wrote:

The setting book actually. I'll look and see if any of the modules are set in Taldor.

Edit: Ok, Blood of Dragonscar is set in Taldor. Guardians of Dragonsfall starts in Augustana, in Andoran (which is part of Taldor, they'll figure it out eventually :P ) Flight of the Red Raven is also Taldor, in the Fog Peaks.

a bunch of the PFS scenarios are in Taldor too

[GeraintElberion]

Taldor seems to be modeled upon Byzantium during the period of decline.

I don't see it as very noble, decadent and corrupt is the vibe, it always feels like whoever is writing about Taldor doesn't really approve of the place. Cheliax gets a better press than Taldor from the tone of most Paizo publications (essentially, they make it clear that the man on the street is not responsible for Cheliax' terrible elite but don't make the same clear distinction very often for Taldor.

But, they have created a campaign seed that allows for players to return Taldor to the days of knights on chargers and dragonslaying heroes - Princess Eutropia!

I would quite like to see an AP in which the PCs worked with Eutropia to restore the country's faded glory.

[Matthew Morris]

Hopefully our hosts will forgive the swaths of text.

Taldor, Echoes of Glory wrote:

Modern Taldor is an empire in decline, with a decadent and complicated upper class ruling over an enormous and poverty-stricken lower class. Its prefectures fight border skirmishes, its noble houses joust and ruin one another, and its sparsely populated frontiers have turned lawless and chaotic.

Taldor, Echoes of Glory wrote:

(On the Tandak Plains)Dozens of active and ruined canals crisscross the plains, which are dotted with hundreds of ruined temples, lost castles, and ghost towns.

Taldor, Echoes of Glory wrote:

Taldor was once connected by well-constructed canals and solid, well-guarded roads. As the empire declined, the Taldan Horse and Taldan Phalanx were less able to guard the routes of travel, and the villages and hamlets farthest from Oppara shrank and disappeared. Those that remain are either heavily guarded by local militia or ruled by rogue barons, gangs, or worse. To an outsider visiting Oppara, Taldor appears to be the height of modern society—travel a day south and the rapid decline of Taldor’s once glorious achievements becomes clear.

So yeah, I think of lost towns, grown over roads and lots of adventure.

[Monele]

Thanks for all the replies so far, they're very informative!

Sadly, I think I'm not yet seeing what I was hoping for. Taldor is a good example of an "almost there, but..." situation for me. From the descriptions, it seems I would have enjoyed Taldor-that-was and not the ruins left. I'm getting a clearer feel for what I'm looking for: I like the idea of a cozy home base where it feels good to live and, as a result, that you want to protect. You should feel threatened when you go adventuring, not when you're at home. While I also like the idea of bad towns meant for urban adventures, it seems to me there are *only* bad towns as far as I can see. Falcon's Hollow comes to mind: it feels like whatever you do, the monsters in the forests and ruins are not the worst threat and nothing you'll do will change things.

To be clear, yes, what I'm looking for is cheesy. Not looking for realism but, really, brighter fantasy. Not sure what I'm seeking could be called "fairy-tale like", but it seems it would be leaning that way. It should also be noted that I'm a very late comer to D&D and Pathfinder in general, so while everyone seems to be looking for "something different than the usual"... I have yet to discover what the usual is. This probably explains why I'm looking for something very classic.

That said, I was just reading Erastil's article from Kingmaker this morning and I loved it. I also loved Cayden Cailean's article. Maybe I should just do planar adventures *grins*.

[Werecorpse]

Monele wrote:

Thanks for all the replies so far, they're very informative!

Sadly, I think I'm not yet seeing what I was hoping for. Taldor is a good example of an "almost there, but..." situation for me. From the descriptions, it seems I would have enjoyed Taldor-that-was and not the ruins left. I'm getting a clearer feel for what I'm looking for: I like the idea of a cozy home base where it feels good to live and, as a result, that you want to protect. You should feel threatened when you go adventuring, not when you're at home. While I also like the idea of bad towns meant for urban adventures, it seems to me there are *only* bad towns as far as I can see. Falcon's Hollow comes to mind: it feels like whatever you do, the monsters in the forests and ruins are not the worst threat and nothing you'll do will change things.

To be clear, yes, what I'm looking for is cheesy. Not looking for realism but, really, brighter fantasy. Not sure what I'm seeking could be called "fairy-tale like", but it seems it would be leaning that way. It should also be noted that I'm a very late comer to D&D and Pathfinder in general, so while everyone seems to be looking for "something different than the usual"... I have yet to discover what the usual is. This probably explains why I'm looking for something very classic.

That said, I was just reading Erastil's article from Kingmaker this morning and I loved it. I also loved Cayden Cailean's article. Maybe I should just do planar adventures *grins*.

I would have to agree with your perception of Golarion. My players and I refer to it not being a black & white setting but a black and grey. The Evil is still eveil (probably even more evil than many settings), and the good tends to struggling and not that good

[Gorbacz]

Monele wrote:

Thanks for all the replies so far, they're very informative!

Sadly, I think I'm not yet seeing what I was hoping for. Taldor is a good example of an "almost there, but..." situation for me. From the descriptions, it seems I would have enjoyed Taldor-that-was and not the ruins left. I'm getting a clearer feel for what I'm looking for: I like the idea of a cozy home base where it feels good to live and, as a result, that you want to protect. You should feel threatened when you go adventuring, not when you're at home. While I also like the idea of bad towns meant for urban adventures, it seems to me there are *only* bad towns as far as I can see. Falcon's Hollow comes to mind: it feels like whatever you do, the monsters in the forests and ruins are not the worst threat and nothing you'll do will change things.

To be clear, yes, what I'm looking for is cheesy. Not looking for realism but, really, brighter fantasy. Not sure what I'm seeking could be called "fairy-tale like", but it seems it would be leaning that way. It should also be noted that I'm a very late comer to D&D and Pathfinder in general, so while everyone seems to be looking for "something different than the usual"... I have yet to discover what the usual is. This probably explains why I'm looking for something very classic.

That said, I was just reading Erastil's article from Kingmaker this morning and I loved it. I also loved Cayden Cailean's article. Maybe I should just do planar adventures *grins*.

Perhaps you could take a look at Varisia ? Sandpoint and Magnimar are very good "cozy good towns". Falcon's Hollow is dour, but the nearby Olfden is a rather merry locale, surroundings excepted.

Golarion has places for almost every kind of adventure, including the good old heroic black/white monster stomping.

[Monele]

I'll look up information on Taldor, Andoran and Varisia as they have been mentioned so far. I'm still hopeful!

And I can always use Kingmaker as a way to create that very cozy home town, if it comes to that, right?

[Andreas Skye]

You can always go for Andoran. Definitely, it's pretty heroic in the traditional sense (except for the fact that it's a republic, no kings and princesses, but you do have knights). Andorani ideals of freedom are exported, that is, Knights of Andoran, and other citizens, see a mission in fighting oppression across Avistan and they have support of the authorities and of divine proxies in doing so...

As already said, Varisia is also pretty good, as are some of the northern kingdoms. The series of modules which begins with Crypt of the Everflame is a nice sample of prospectively good pcs given a quest by a good organization (and Nimratas is a CG nation) to oppose the classic evil organization (Church of Razmir).

[golem101]

Monele wrote:

Thanks for all the replies so far, they're very informative!

Sadly, I think I'm not yet seeing what I was hoping for. Taldor is a good example of an "almost there, but..." situation for me. From the descriptions, it seems I would have enjoyed Taldor-that-was and not the ruins left. I'm getting a clearer feel for what I'm looking for: I like the idea of a cozy home base where it feels good to live and, as a result, that you want to protect. You should feel threatened when you go adventuring, not when you're at home. While I also like the idea of bad towns meant for urban adventures, it seems to me there are *only* bad towns as far as I can see. Falcon's Hollow comes to mind: it feels like whatever you do, the monsters in the forests and ruins are not the worst threat and nothing you'll do will change things.

To be clear, yes, what I'm looking for is cheesy. Not looking for realism but, really, brighter fantasy. Not sure what I'm seeking could be called "fairy-tale like", but it seems it would be leaning that way. It should also be noted that I'm a very late comer to D&D and Pathfinder in general, so while everyone seems to be looking for "something different than the usual"... I have yet to discover what the usual is. This probably explains why I'm looking for something very classic.

That said, I was just reading Erastil's article from Kingmaker this morning and I loved it. I also loved Cayden Cailean's article. Maybe I should just do planar adventures *grins*.

Andoran looks like the place you're searching for your home-base (well, maybe with some slight modifications).

Also remember, that the Paizo author very often put a really important note at the start of the PF products: "this is just material for inspiration in YOUR GAME. Use it as you wish, modifying the bits you don't like, etc."

So, even if you're not playing in "canon Golarion", there won't be any problem at all.

[Monele]

golem101 wrote:

Also remember, that the Paizo author very often put a really important note at the start of the PF products: "this is just material for inspiration in YOUR GAME. Use it as you wish, modifying the bits you don't like, etc."

So, even if you're not playing in "canon Golarion", there won't be any problem at all.

I do keep this in mind and it might be the best way for me to enjoy the setting. It is a bit sad (and more work) to "fight" the setting that way, but a perfectly valid alternative. Doing this and using the bits I like should give something nice.

Still interested in knowing what other "nice places" exist in Golarion, so please keep 'em coming :)

[LazarX]

Golarian is gritty, probably because that's what's riding high among most of the gamer populace, being raised a generation after the old school of more simplistic settings. What you're looking for was more typical of Greyhawk and early Forgotten Realms, but most of the current crop of authors for both modules and fiction has gone to the "darker and edgier" side of things because that's what the bulk of players want. I personally feel that such settings make for more heroic adventures. I also have a severe problem with the concept of "good" nations. Nations are concerned first and foremost for thier own survival and advantage, a country that doesn't think of those first, tends not to last very long.

That being said there is room for noble, bright, and true characters. They are going to have a more uphill slog for them though.

As far as areas, I'd definitely would look into the Andorans for you. (although some of their PFS faction missions might be a rude surprise) A Varistan background can inspire anything from gypsy to desert barbarian, if I'm reading the material right.

Qadira is perfect for Mummy "pulp" style adventures.

As for Cheliax, as I've heard from a couple of players of close equation, they tend to think of themselves as the one "honest" faction.

If you're looking for races attuned to the mystic and natural, the Elves of Golarian, while more in touch with nature than Humans, are not quite the race you'd expect to find if you've been weened on TSR/WOTC. The race that occupies the fey niche in Golarian are the Gnomes, who thank the Powers are not the tinker-minded maniacs of Krynn.

Elves in comparison are more like pre-Surak Vulcans.

[Paladinosaur]

You could set your campaign a century in past, a few years before the death of Aroden, and you'd have a very heroic, high-adventure setting.