Most often, when we hear of dump stats, we think of Strength and Charisma. These two can be dropped by many characters, classes, and builds with little repercussion. This means there are a lot of frail, socially awkward heroes in this world (maybe this is a subconscious reinforcement of negative stereotypes associated with gamers). In any case, I'm wondering about other dumps. What is acceptable, what is ludicrous?
ex: I had a CON 6 (after race) PC who did a decent job, but got hit by a heck of an attack at level 2. I think CON is actually something one can survive without. Fort saves are rare enough, and most are replaceable with anti-plague and anti-venom on hand. Hit points are made up for with the toughness feat and favoured class along with larger hit dice.
What do you think about all this?
|
Most often, when we hear of dump stats, we think of Strength and Charisma. These two can be dropped by many characters, classes, and builds with little repercussion. This means there are a lot of frail, socially awkward heroes in this world (maybe this is a subconscious reinforcement of negative stereotypes associated with gamers). In any case, I'm wondering about other dumps. What is acceptable, what is ludicrous?
ex: I had a CON 6 (after race) PC who did a decent job, but got hit by a heck of an attack at level 2. I think CON is actually something one can survive without. Fort saves are rare enough, and most are replaceable with anti-plague and anti-venom on hand. Hit points are made up for with the toughness feat and favoured class along with larger hit dice.
What do you think about all this?
Simple: you dump a stat in one of my games, be perfectly prepared to have it come and hurt on ya. You dump cha, you might anger the local guard. You dump con, fort saves *will* come at you, and you won't like it. Basically: dump anything, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.
Most often, when we hear of dump stats, we think of Strength and Charisma. These two can be dropped by many characters, classes, and builds with little repercussion. This means there are a lot of frail, socially awkward heroes in this world (maybe this is a subconscious reinforcement of negative stereotypes associated with gamers). In any case, I'm wondering about other dumps. What is acceptable, what is ludicrous?
ex: I had a CON 6 (after race) PC who did a decent job, but got hit by a heck of an attack at level 2. I think CON is actually something one can survive without. Fort saves are rare enough, and most are replaceable with anti-plague and anti-venom on hand. Hit points are made up for with the toughness feat and favoured class along with larger hit dice.
What do you think about all this?
I only see strength get dumped by casters, and I have never seen con get dumped without the player dying. I don't like seeing anything below a six, but my players also know I attack in many ways as a GM, so it is up to them if they choose to take the risk. I also tend to play to high levels. There is no chemical repellant for energy drain, and certain other bad fort effects. I do agree that toughness can help out, and so can the favored class bonus, but sometimes it is better to choose the skill.
I played an elven Cloistered Cleric who dumped Con once. Only because the DM had a habit of pulling the 'you are unconcious' trick when characters were supposed to be killed. I wanted to see how far he would go to avoid it. Sadly, the game didn't get going.
I have a habit of messing with GM's that wont kill players also.
Dump stats very with what you are playing and how you want that character to play out. If I am going for an RP angle then I will try to avoid a dump stat, or I will dump one that is a bit strange to play on that RP angle. If I am building the character for power then I will dump something that the character can live without.
For example, on a Paladin with no real RP goals I would dump Dex or Int in favor of Str, Con, Wis, and Cha.
Take that same Paladin, throw in the RP element that he is the runt of the family but his drive and determination have brought him this far and he aspires to be a hero, and champion of his god. Then I would likely dump Str or Con in favor of Dex, Wis, Int, and Cha.
Same basic character, two completely different views on the dump stat.
I must be odd the only stat I have not dumped has been Cha...all the others I have probably dumped at one time or the other. I have even dumped Con twice( and oddly enough I rolled really well for the HP both of thos times so I did not feel it as badly).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Simple: you dump a stat in one of my games, be perfectly prepared to have it come and hurt on ya. You dump cha, you might anger the local guard. You dump con, fort saves *will* come at you, and you won't like it. Basically: dump anything, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.
That makes it sound like you have some sort of vendetta against dump stats and go out of your way to punish players who use them. Is that what you meant?
I must be odd the only stat I have not dumped has been Cha...all the others I have probably dumped at one time or the other. I have even dumped Con twice( and oddly enough I rolled really well for the HP both of thos times so I did not feel it as badly).
I've never dumped Cha either. If fact, I try NOT to have a dump stat if I can help it. If I must, I usually go for Con. Probably not the best choice to dump, but I have my reasons.
I must be odd the only stat I have not dumped has been Cha...all the others I have probably dumped at one time or the other. I have even dumped Con twice( and oddly enough I rolled really well for the HP both of thos times so I did not feel it as badly).I've never dumped Cha either. If fact, I try NOT to have a dump stat if I can help it. If I must, I usually go for Con. Probably not the best choice to dump, but I have my reasons.
By dump stat I mean my lowest roll...so something has to be dumped. I should have explained that earlier.
Simple: you dump a stat in one of my games, be perfectly prepared to have it come and hurt on ya. You dump cha, you might anger the local guard. You dump con, fort saves *will* come at you, and you won't like it. Basically: dump anything, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.That makes it sound like you have some sort of vendetta against dump stats and go out of your way to punish players who use them. Is that what you meant?
Sounds like bad DMing to me. You should try to allow the players to show their character's strengths, not go out of your way to punish them for their character's weaknesses just because you disagree with their priorities during character building.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Sounds like bad DMing to me. You should try to allow the players to show their character's strengths, not go out of your way to punish them for their character's weaknesses just because you disagree with their priorities during character building.Simple: you dump a stat in one of my games, be perfectly prepared to have it come and hurt on ya. You dump cha, you might anger the local guard. You dump con, fort saves *will* come at you, and you won't like it. Basically: dump anything, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.That makes it sound like you have some sort of vendetta against dump stats and go out of your way to punish players who use them. Is that what you meant?
Now to be fair, that may not be what he meant (hence why I asked). Could be he just incorporates lots of tactics/challenges into his campaigns and so your weakness is going to come up eventually by default.
Sounds like bad DMing to me. You should try to allow the players to show their character's strengths, not go out of your way to punish them for their character's weaknesses just because you disagree with their priorities during character building.Simple: you dump a stat in one of my games, be perfectly prepared to have it come and hurt on ya. You dump cha, you might anger the local guard. You dump con, fort saves *will* come at you, and you won't like it. Basically: dump anything, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.That makes it sound like you have some sort of vendetta against dump stats and go out of your way to punish players who use them. Is that what you meant?
You never know, they could have just read Play Dirty by John Wick and misunderstood the section about using the players strengths against them. I see nothing wrong with hitting the player were it hurts, but that needs to be sparingly. Going after them because they reduced their Cha to increase the Barbarians Str is, as you said, just plain bad DMing.
|
I think that a special case must be made for the stats used for the saves. As a Save or Suck caster, I will target you with a spell that aims what I suppose is your lowest save based mostly on your apparent class/role.
I will aim for the Will of a Fighter or a Rogue, the Reflex of a caster (or sometimes its Fortitude).
Assuming your GM plays casters the same way, you should avoid dumping the stats that compensate your weak base saves.
Also, this means, that you can overmetagame by dumping the stat that is used for your highest save and make the bet that the enemy caster will not even try to target it.
It really depends on the character. I dont like dump stats because of my pure anti-min-max standpoint. However there are certain characters who I see as dim witted (Int), weak (Str), or sickly (con). Ive even had a character have severe burns all over her body so she looked like a monster, thus reducing her charisma to 7 made sense.
I think if there is a weakness you see in the character then by all means reduce a stat to show that weakness but I think dump stats that arent supported by proper roleplaying is a good sign of a min-maxer who IMO should not be playing in my games (that said if the GM is fine with a full group of min-maxers go for it, I wont tell someone how to run their game)
If one of my players makes a character that has an organic reason to have a conspicuously dumped stat, that doesn't bother me. If I feel like a player is doing it just to min-max, I'm going to beat them over the head with their dump stat at every opportunity. Call it bad DMing if you like, but I think it's reasonable. If a character is running around with a stat of 7, they should probably be back at the monastery illuminating manuscripts, or working on daddy's farm. Certainly they shouldn't be adventuring. I'm not even sure how someone with a Con below 8 survives a few rounds of combat without collapsing into a wheezing mess.
Funny thing is that our entire party has above 14 CHA and our STR averages higher than normal.
Bard
Cleric
Paladin
Spirit Totem Barbarian
Sorcerer
Most often, when we hear of dump stats, we think of Strength and Charisma. These two can be dropped by many characters, classes, and builds with little repercussion. This means there are a lot of frail, socially awkward heroes in this world (maybe this is a subconscious reinforcement of negative stereotypes associated with gamers). In any case, I'm wondering about other dumps. What is acceptable, what is ludicrous?
ex: I had a CON 6 (after race) PC who did a decent job, but got hit by a heck of an attack at level 2. I think CON is actually something one can survive without. Fort saves are rare enough, and most are replaceable with anti-plague and anti-venom on hand. Hit points are made up for with the toughness feat and favoured class along with larger hit dice.
What do you think about all this?
I have a very successful Paladin who has reached 5th level. She has a 7 Con, and a high Charisma. She has yet to fall into the negatives because of her readiness to play defensively, and the swift-action lay on hands allows her to effectively had more HP than she would appear to in a given day (she recovers an average of 7 Hp per turn, which is more HP than a 12 Con would give, for example). Her Fortitude save is made up by her Charisma. Her endurance comes from her spirit.
Since she's a Paladin of Wee Jass, if she survives to 15th level she gets a grand payoff in the form of lichdom (in D&D lore there are good liches known as archliches or baelnorn) and then her labors will pay off and she'll become a touch as nails champion of justice.
I've seen bruisers dump Dexterity. Not usually one of my favorite dump stats, but if you're going to dump a save stat then Dexterity isn't a bad choice if you have either A) heavy armor, or B) don't care about your AC (which is entirely valid).
Intelligence is a fair stat to dump if you want to represent an under-education, since it means that you can take 10 on Knowledge checks to answer common questions ("I've lived in the woods for twelves years. I haven't the foggiest what the name of the Baron's son is"), and with certain classes like Ranger, it doesn't really hurt very much (Human Ranger with 7 Int gets 5 skill points every level, which is plenty).
Wisdom is a hard pill to swallow on most classes because it's tied to your Will saves. Paladins, however, have the easiest time dumping this stat because their above-average Charisma can more than make up for it. In fact, a Paladin can often afford to dump Con and Wisdom and make up for it with a high Charisma. Doubly so if they cast Bestow Grace on themselves (doubling their Cha to Saves).
Charisma isn't very needed for most classes, and if you want to be social you can invest some of your skill points into it. You won't out preform the bard by any means, but most classes just don't need a good Charisma (barbarians, clerics (yes clerics), fighters, monks, rangers, wizards, druids, alchemist, witch, psion, psychic warrior, soul-knife, etc). For classes that need it, it's the end all-be-all. For classes that don't, it's just a -2 to +2 bonus to a few skills.
Strength is the go-to dumpstat for most spellcasters who have little hope of being very good in melee, don't need to carry much, and are going to fold in combat maneuvers regardless of their strength (most would likely take Agile Maneuvers and Defensive Combat Training if they were reeeeaaaallllly worried about it). Especially since spells like Ant-Haul mean you can carry far greater loads, or more importantly your pack animal or warriors can.
That's Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. Yep, they can all be dumped somewhere around the block.
Humans can do pretty well dumping Int. With a minimum of 1 skill point per level regardless of Int penalty, plus 1 for human, and then even 1 for favored class, you can easily get 3 skill points per level and have a 7 Int. For a Fighter that's enough to spread around over a few levels to get plenty of class skills bumped up to a competent level.
Then just dump Cha and you've got +8 more points to use to crank that Strength up to 20, along with having a decent Dex and Con, or the reverse with Dex at 20 if you're an archer.
This is 100% true. A human Fighter can do just fine with 3 skill points per level. Pathfinder's skill system is very dip-friendly. Drop a point here, a point there, gain a level and dump 3 points into a skill you want to level up faster, etc.
If you have access to the Open Minded feat updated from 3.5 to PF in Psionics Unleashed, you can take a feat to get +1 skill point per level (essentially the skill point version of Toughness) to bring it to 4. Enough to be quite competent, despite your lack of general knowledge.
I am no fan of the dump stat, willingly dumped for build points somewhere else. I am accepting of the poor roll, put somewhere it does the least harm to the character concept. Needless to say, I prefer rolling stats.
I think dumping stats make for more believable characters. I'm not really a fan of Mary Sue types who are good at everything or are at least average at their worst.
If you've ever watched season 1 of Dollhouse, Topher Brink (the mad genius in the series whom everyone lurves) notes that for a person to be a person they are ultimately balanced. If they excel in something they will be poorer in other things. Paraphrasing due to poor memory: "Over achievers are always compensating for something".
Just as I don't want to see Mary Sues, I don't want to see average Joes either. Ok, you got 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Awesome 15 point buy dude. You're above average in everything and equally boring.
A low con will get you killed, especially at low levels before toughness and the Favored class bonuses pile up. If you're a wizard you only have d6 HPs. If you're a rogue, you need to be next to do something to damage it. If you're a fighter with a 6 con, you're on crack.
Not only do you have fewer HP's, but you can only go to a lower negative before being dead. AT first level even an X2 crit can outright kill you.
Unless my concept call for it I can not bring myself to go any stat lower then 10. I just hate it, not sure why it just bugs me.
I see cha get dumped more then anything, caste'd dump str, fighters sometimes dump dex, I have seen wis and int dumped as well from time to time. No one in their right mind dumps con.
A dump stat doesn't bother me. The guy who shows up with 20,16,14,7,7,7 gets the big frown stink eye tho!
heh and dies if they ever run into anything that even drains 1d4 of those. Some times these are self correcting issues if the GM does not hold their hands :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just as I don't want to see Mary Sues, I don't want to see average Joes either. Ok, you got 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12. Awesome 15 point buy dude. You're above average in everything and equally boring.
Wait, so having a +1 in your weak area is enough to be above average? I consider that to be pretty mediocre. Average is +4.
Also, stats don't make a character boring, boring roleplaying makes a character boring.
|
|
Unless my concept call for it I can not bring myself to go any stat lower then 10. I just hate it, not sure why it just bugs me.
I see cha get dumped more then anything, caste'd dump str, fighters sometimes dump dex, I have seen wis and int dumped as well from time to time. No one in their right mind dumps con.
I'd take offense to that last part, if I had ever claimed to be in my right mind. :) Agreed completely on the first paragraph tho.
well if you have a concept sure..I have a player on here who will not be named that is running around with a con 6 bard with no armor :)
But ya know you die at neg con now, not con or 10 which ever is better.
|
A dump stat doesn't bother me. The guy who shows up with 20,16,14,7,7,7 gets the big frown stink eye tho!heh and dies if they ever run into anything that even drains 1d4 of those. Some times these are self correcting issues if the GM does not hold their hands :)
Oh and he did :). The best part was I ran a one shot to give the GM a break and told everyone to use 20pt buy and make lvl 5 characters. The "one guy" says, "20pts?; Thats impossible!" A few min later he said, "never mind I figured it out," and then plopped down his 20,16,14,7,7,7.
To give him credit though he decided to enter the fray when the orc outpost spotted him trying to scout instead of retreating to the party. He said, "its what a 7 wisdom guy would do."
Ah yes, messing with Gm who won't kill pc's. I have seen that, oh yes. Honestly I am amazed the PC is still alive really. I don't fudge rolls and let the dice fall where they may and I did kill the summoner (he was at -20 or 30 something) I guess the dice gods likes that belly dancer :)
I don't mind dump stats as long as they fit the concept.
But if you're going to dump CON in my games, you might be in for a very short adventuring career for those first levels.
Especially if I'm running The Serpent's Skull AP.
Unless my concept call for it I can not bring myself to go any stat lower then 10. I just hate it, not sure why it just bugs me.
I'm the same way. I think it is just a hatred of penalties. It's fine if I don't get a bonus (10 or 11) but anything below starts to actually hurt.
Only rarely will I take that hit. I have a rogue/swashbuckler I made for an upcoming 3.5 game. He has WIS 8. Since it's 3.5 he can still find the traps (search is INT based). He has training in some WIS skills (sense motive, spot), but he is a bit rash and weak-willed. Basically, he's a thief who has trouble keeping his hands out of other people's pockets.
I love low charisma characters.
"What? were you raised by wolves?"
"Yes. They threw me out for bad table manners"
.
..
...
....
.....
Dex!
Dex is for the weak!
If one of my players makes a character that has an organic reason to have a conspicuously dumped stat, that doesn't bother me. If I feel like a player is doing it just to min-max, I'm going to beat them over the head with their dump stat at every opportunity. Call it bad DMing if you like, but I think it's reasonable. If a character is running around with a stat of 7, they should probably be back at the monastery illuminating manuscripts, or working on daddy's farm. Certainly they shouldn't be adventuring. I'm not even sure how someone with a Con below 8 survives a few rounds of combat without collapsing into a wheezing mess.
It is bad DM'ing and DM metagaming(NPC's don't know your stats). The mature thing to do is handle it out of character. You can call it whatever you want, but if a GM can't man up and discuss things with me as a player he give my empty chair to the next guy.
Had a gnome wizard once who had dumped his strength to 6 and felt like he was the king of the world. When he got hit by the Ray of Enfeeblement he dropped to the ground, unable to carry his gear. Now that was a fun scene. :)
That could only happen in 3.5, not in PF. Well at least with no house rules.
Anyway i don't think that dump stats are evil or anything, sure you may have CHA 7 but you know what? if you have a total 8 on diplomacy (7 ranks + class skill - 2 from CHA) and let's say a 10 from a roll it doesn't make that much of a difference. Sure it might mean the difference between success abd failure of the roll but that is true for any stat, having an ability below average isn't THAT important, at least IMO.
It is bad DM'ing and DM metagaming(NPC's don't know your stats). The mature thing to do is handle it out of character. You can call it whatever you want, but if a GM can't man up and discuss things with me as a player he give my empty chair to the next guy.
Well obviously I would handle it out of character. I'm not going to look over a character, give it my approval, and then express my unhappiness passive-aggressively by making the low Can guy save against poison all the time. But if someone makes a highly min-maxed character, ignores me when I caution them against it (as I invariably will) I will definitely create situations where the balanced characters will thrive and the min-maxed guy will fare poorly. And why not? The min-maxed character gets to shine in combat, or whatever it is he/she was built for, while people who made reasonable, balanced characters lag a bit behind. I don't think there's anything wrong with holding people to account for such behavior.
That said, no one has ever made a character like that in one of my games. One person considered doing so after reading one of the class guides here, but stopped after I told them that their character would be too stupid to flank if they had an Int of 7.
just the way my old group played but we always had a dump stat; but we just called them flaws like in Greek myths. Every pc had an Achilles heel, it made easier on the dm to give every one shining moments as well as control even the most "munchkined" out character.
It's not bad DMing to single out a dump (or low rolled) stat. It shouldn't be done just to teach a lesson, but I do think a bit of judicious anti-metagame metagaming is necessary. You can't metagame away a deficient physical stat, so you shouldn't be able to do it to a mental stat.
If you're going to let low Cha characters get away with it it better be because they're rolling crazy Diplo and Bluff checks, not because the player is making a good argument that the character wouldn't have the charisma to sell.
|
All stats EXCEPT con can be dumpable.
Cha is most dumped. It has no actual game effect, you can use int to make up for it with diplomacy skills or just ignore it altogether and be "that shady guy". Regardless, easiest to live without.
Str is 2nd; even a caster with a decent Str is going to get grappled, and there are plenty of things/people to carry stuff. So if you don't hit you don't need it.
Int is 3rd; skills aren't highly game-effecting much of the time. They are more fun to have around, but you can get away without it.
Wis is 4th; after fort will is the most screwing stat, and perception the best skill. Paladins can get away with it since saves are all Cha-based for them, and their few skill points are precious so they can't really perceive.
Dex is 5th; few want a negative here. AC is paramount at low levels, some say it's not at high, but I tend to still prefer it. Regardless, few people are not either front line or wanting to hit with touch.
Con is terrible to dump. HP, and the save most likely to kill you.
And I have no issue with dumping stats as long as they are reasonably RPed.
