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Oh.
(File under category of: "Goofball cheese the DM would kill me if I actually tried to get away with doing it".)
....of course Deathless Initiate (& chain) is a trap anyway since you can use it only once per round (Immediate action dependent), which means you're screwed if you try to "super-cruise" below zero HP, and they are hit with a strong multi-attack.
That particular use is indeed cheese as heck, but even without it that thing is good, as it refreshes rage rounds whenever you hit on a sunder. Like spell sunder. Or enemy equipment. (never to break. If caster level is a worry, sunder their outfit repeatedly. Never seen a magic adventurer outfit.)
It is a sexy feat, but the requirements hinder it a bit. You must be orc blooded and a worshiper of the destroyer. Which basically means CN, unless you want to be CG worshiping aspects or something.
Well, destroyers blessing, just made my half orc build.
Still we need to sort the lethal/non lethal rules interaction.
Same example. Mr HacknSlash is at 50hp and takes 100 damage.
Reduced to 95 from Invulnerable Rager DR.
Which would put him at -45.
Gtr guarded life kicks in. 25 actual damage taken and 20 is non-lethal.
The NON LETHAL damage is further reduced by 10 from Invulnerable rager double
DR vs non lethal.
So he is at -25 lethal and 10 non lethal. Total -35.
Total con score is 28 (+9mod)
He spends 6 rage rounds to subtract 18 damage leaving him at -17 instead (10 of it non lethal)
Still standing and kicking.
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I think you meant 2 rounds of rage (x9=18), and he takes 75 lethal and 20 non-lethal.
Since he actually pegs neg CON from this hit, he's entitled to spend as many rounds of rage as he wants; the only requirement of Ferocious Tenacity (aside from the annoying Immediate action cost) is that he still take at least 1hp of damage -- meaning, in the example above, he could spend 8 round of rage to knock off 72hp worth of lethal damage.
As long as you take only MASSIVE hits that bomb neg-CON from the top side of 0hp, it's an awesome way to Bronx cheer the opponent...but if they henpeck you with Bleed and archery, trickling you slowly to death, then Ferocious Tenacity doesn't help. I.e., if you're 5pts away from neg-CON and your CON bonus is +9, you can't even use it unless the next attack does ten or more -- if it does between 5 and 9, you're screwed.
Rant: I hate the sneaky "self-nerf" wording in about half the feats in the game; and the Immediate action restriction in Ferocious Tenacity is a perfect example. It's as if the developers were devising ways for barbarians with pathetic AC to not suck when mauled by all the new multi-attack monsters, and came up with a cool trade-rage-for-damage idea, but then somebody said, "Naw, too powerful, so we'll sneak in this action requirement which gives the monster more chances to kill them if it has more attacks that round. Not use the word 'heal' either, so it can't take away nonlethal, meaning eventually that eventually they suddenly fall on their face when above zero hitpoints. At the same time, we'll dangle taxed-up-the-wazoo Deathless feat-chain in front of all the munckin hack-n-slashers to tempt them to remain under zero HP so they get killed faster. Ha ha ha! I love being an evil game developer who tricks players into making characters with built-in time-bombs!"
<insert jerk-it smiley>
/rant.
*Sigh*
Back to 43 AC S&B paladins with Lay on out the butt, I guess....
Well, OK; you don't get it cart blanche, but it's more or less built into Dervish Dance (because that feat covers both attack and damage). Thus the "So long as..." proviso.So long as you fight only with a scimitar in melee, take a level of bard[dawnflower dervish] at 2nd level, and pick up finesse and dervish dance for free, and Battle Dance at +2/+2 attack/damage off a move action. Wear a buckler on your forearm (not "hand", which has to stay empty) and enjoy better AC.Interesting Idea, however how do you get Weapon finesse for free, Bard Dawnflower only gives Dervish Dance in place of Bardic Knowledge.Also how are you getting Battle Dance at +2? It uses Inspire courage as its base so you get +1 till 5th level then it goes to +2.Dawnflower bards get double the bonus, but their Inspire only affects themselves.I would also need to find stat points to put into CHA to be able to cast any 1st level spells at 2nd Level.You don't need a positive CHA score for bardic performances (although it certainly helps on your uses per day).In the end I don't think what I'm giving up or delaying is worth 1 feat and 2 first level spells.Spells? What are those? (Answer: something you UMD out-of-combat AKA not-raging, because UMD is on your bard class list.)
Thanks for the reply, I guess I just couldn't read yesterday.
I would still need to get weapon finesse for my claw attacks if I go that route. and I hate to get a class with spells and not be able to cast any. CHA item +2 might be in order earlier.
I think you meant 2 rounds of rage (x9=18), and he takes 75 lethal and 20 non-lethal.
Since he actually pegs neg CON from this hit, he's entitled to spend as many rounds of rage as he wants; the only requirement of Ferocious Tenacity (aside from the annoying Immediate action cost) is that he still take at least 1hp of damage -- meaning, in the example above, he could spend 8 round of rage to knock off 72hp worth of lethal damage.
As long as you take only MASSIVE hits that bomb neg-CON from the top side of 0hp, it's an awesome way to Bronx cheer the opponent...but if they henpeck you with Bleed and archery, trickling you slowly to death, then Ferocious Tenacity doesn't help. I.e., if you're 5pts away from neg-CON and your CON bonus is +9, you can't even use it unless the next attack does ten or more -- if it does between 5 and 9, you're screwed.
Rant: I hate the sneaky "self-nerf" wording in about half the feats in the game; and the Immediate action restriction in Ferocious Tenacity is a perfect example. It's as if the developers were devising ways for barbarians with pathetic AC to not suck when mauled by all the new multi-attack monsters, and came up with a cool trade-rage-for-damage idea, but then somebody said, "Naw, too powerful, so we'll sneak in this action requirement which gives the monster more chances to kill them if it has more attacks that round. Not use the word 'heal' either, so it can't take away nonlethal, meaning eventually that eventually they suddenly fall on their face when above zero hitpoints. At the same time, we'll dangle taxed-up-the-wazoo Deathless feat-chain in front of all the munckin hack-n-slashers to tempt them to remain under zero HP so they get killed faster. Ha ha ha! I love being an evil game developer who tricks players into making characters with built-in time-bombs!"
<insert jerk-it smiley>
/rant.
*Sigh*
Back to 43 AC S&B paladins with Lay on out the butt, I guess....
If you're fighting monsters that have multiple attacks and each one of those can one shot you, without critting, then the DM wants you dead, nothing you can do. The feats are not at fault.
In the case of a monster with a single powerfull attack or against a deastating crit those feats are actually pretty awesome.|
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I would still need to get weapon finesse for my claw attacks if I go that routeNote that you wouldn't be able to use the same limb to make both a claw and a scimitar attack in the same round, and your natural attacks would be at -5 if you also attack with your scimitar (natural attacks become secondaries after manufactured weapon attacks).
I hate to get a class with spells and not be able to cast any.Well, not that a bard gets much in the way of spellcasting at 1st level. Two known spells...big whoop. -- You're better off buying a pile of 25gp scrolls on your list and casting them with UMD at mid-level (or, if it's PFS, using prestige to buy wands).
If you're fighting monsters that have multiple attacks and each one of those can one shot you, without critting, then the DM wants you dead, nothing you can do. The feats are not at fault.
No; it's the nickle & dime multi-attack monsters that'll kill you if you're relying on Deathless Initiate and Ferocious Tenacity.
Guarded Life -- only kicks in when you drop through the 0hp boundary.
Ferocious Tenacity -- only kicks in when you hit neg-CON (once per round max usage)
Deathless Initiate -- only kicks in when you're below 0hp.
So, let's say you're at -2 and enjoying Deathless Initiate's bonuses.
1) Since you're below 0hp, Guarded Life is no longer usable.
2) If a fairly standard monster with four or so mediocre bonus-to-hit 15-20hp natural attacks starts chewing on you, you're probably going to croak. -- You're a sponge type, so your AC is horrid, meaning most or all of the attacks will hit, and the monster only needs to land a couple to drop you to neg CON, and since the attacks don't do much damage, you can't negate very much with Ferocious Tenacity. So, you get hit and drop to -20. You get hit again and go to -39 (burn two rounds rage to go back to -20. Monster hits you a third time, and you're dead.
IOW, Deathless Initiate is a trap because Ferocious Tenacity is nerfed by the requirement of an Immediate action (rather then working automatically like Guarded Life, which is itself nerfed by only working at 0hp rather than also below it).
Since it seems all the barbarian intel is going here anyway it seems, thought I'd ask:
Is playing a two-weapon barbarian a Very Bad Idea?
I was thinking shield and some one-hander, and take the various shield feats and two-weapon fighting feats, and go the elemental rage and beast totem route for rage powers. Which means there will be next to no room for other feats or rage powers, which might be a bit annoying, perhaps.
The whole twohander barbarians I've had to do with often do way to much damage vs mooks, and ends up struggling with mirror images, blur and suchlike (but I have no experience with them over level 10) on top of bad ac, so I thought I'd try it... But since I haven't seen anyone else play a two-weapon barbarian I might be ignorant of something that makes them suck...
Since it seems all the barbarian intel is going here anyway it seems, thought I'd ask:
Is playing a two-weapon barbarian a Very Bad Idea?
I was thinking shield and some one-hander, and take the various shield feats and two-weapon fighting feats, and go the elemental rage and beast totem route for rage powers. Which means there will be next to no room for other feats or rage powers, which might be a bit annoying, perhaps.
The whole twohander barbarians I've had to do with often do way to much damage vs mooks, and ends up struggling with mirror images, blur and suchlike (but I have no experience with them over level 10) on top of bad ac, so I thought I'd try it... But since I haven't seen anyone else play a two-weapon barbarian I might be ignorant of something that makes them suck...
A side note first: Spell Sunder works wonders against mirror images, blur and suchlike as it negates miss chance for the sunder, which then ends the effect.
Back to TWF barbarians. In short, TWF is too feat and dex intensive to be worthwhile on a barbarian, IMO. Bear in mind that the usual purpose of TWF over THF is to milk additional damage out of additional bonuses like sneak attack and such, to make up for the loss in damage per hit from TWF's dexterity requirements and light weapons. This makes rogues decent at TWF when sneaking, rangers decent when dealing with a favored enemy, and fighters maybe to abuse weapon specialization, GWS, and weapon training, which are the same bonus regardless of weapon type. All of the Barbarian's constant damage boosts are to strength, aside witch hunter, and thus the damage output difference is small enough that it's honestly not worth the gp investment or feat investment.
I would still need to get weapon finesse for my claw attacks if I go that routeNote that you wouldn't be able to use the same limb to make both a claw and a scimitar attack in the same round, and your natural attacks would be at -5 if you also attack with your scimitar (natural attacks become secondaries after manufactured weapon attacks).I hate to get a class with spells and not be able to cast any.Well, not that a bard gets much in the way of spellcasting at 1st level. Two known spells...big whoop. -- You're better off buying a pile of 25gp scrolls on your list and casting them with UMD at mid-level (or, if it's PFS, using prestige to buy wands).If you're fighting monsters that have multiple attacks and each one of those can one shot you, without critting, then the DM wants you dead, nothing you can do. The feats are not at fault.No; it's the nickle & dime multi-attack monsters that'll kill you if you're relying on Deathless Initiate and Ferocious Tenacity.
Guarded Life -- only kicks in when you drop through the 0hp boundary.
Ferocious Tenacity -- only kicks in when you hit neg-CON (once per round max usage)
Deathless Initiate -- only kicks in when you're below 0hp.So, let's say you're at -2 and enjoying Deathless Initiate's bonuses.
1) Since you're below 0hp, Guarded Life is no longer usable.
2) If a fairly standard monster with four or so mediocre bonus-to-hit 15-20hp natural attacks starts chewing on you, you're probably going to croak. -- You're a sponge type, so your AC is horrid, meaning most or all of the attacks will hit, and the monster only needs to land a couple to drop you to neg CON, and since the attacks don't do much damage, you can't negate very much with Ferocious Tenacity. So, you get hit and drop to -20. You get hit again and go to -39 (burn two rounds rage to go back to -20. Monster hits you a third time, and you're dead.IOW, Deathless Initiate is a trap because Ferocious Tenacity is nerfed by the requirement...
Okay, now your argument hinges on horrid tactics. You've fought the monster for enough rounds to know he can hit you with most if not all of his attacks AND you're at negative hp. You should know that standing and trading blows, right now, is a bad move. Retreat and heal. If the party has another meleer, let him work the monster a little. Don't blame the feats for bad tactics, blame the noob players. Heck, don't even blame them, teach them.
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Okay, now your argument hinges on horrid tactics. You've fought the monster for enough rounds to know he can hit you with most if not all of his attacks AND you're at negative hp.
I made no presuppositions whatsoever regarding how the character got negative in the first place or what knowledge he has regarding various opponents.
I state only that Deathless Initiate is a trap because Ferocious Tenacity won't help you (enough) due to the Immediate action requirements. Basically, it's one of those feats you can't really enjoy -- because if you do, you're going to kill yourself fast.
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I've been having a great deal of luck with my two-weapon wielding barbarian at the current moment. I'm currently using the feats Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved,) Double Slice, and Two Weapon Rend.
Throw in there both Lesser and Normal Elemental Rage, Smasher, and Knock Down into the fray, while wielding two Flaming weapons (a long sword and short sword,) you can do quite a bit of damage. If you roll right, you're looking at 3d8 with Str bonuses for long sword strikes, add another 2d6 for each of those for the Flaming effect and Elemental Rage, 2d6+ Str bonuses, with 2d6 once again for Flaming and Elemental Rage, then one more d6 for Lesser Elemental Rage. If both your off-hand and regular hand hit you also add in a d10 due to Two-Weapon Rend.
In total if everything goes smoothly, 3d8+Str (Longsword strikes)+2d6+Str (Short Sword strikes)+11d6 (Flaming effect + Elemental Rage + Lesser Elemental Rage) +d10 (Two Weapon Rend), which is a world of hurt. Lots of dice.
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Does no one like the concept behind the grabarian because its not the top dmg dealing build? I have leveled this single class barb focused on grapple since close to lvl 1 and he has dominated the enemies. Grabbing two foes at once and pinning them later on with greater grapple...fun stuff.
Anyways, I had two thing bothering me that I need help answering. Would elemental rage dmg apply to grapple maneuvers?(animal fury bite as well?) The rage power states melee attacks only. I say they do because a CMB is an attack rolls RAW but my group says grapple is a standard action and not a melee attack. I need RAW to back up my arguements.
Second was what is your alls stance on armor spikes and if you add str mod to spike dmg on successful grapples?
BTW my barb went Invulnerable rager instead of the brawler one while focusing on grappling. I am glad I did as well. That DR is king.
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Does no one like the concept behind the grabarian because its not the top dmg dealing build? I have leveled this single class barb focused on grapple since close to lvl 1 and he has dominated the enemies. Grabbing two foes at once and pinning them later on with greater grapple...fun stuff.
Anyways, I had two thing bothering me that I need help answering. Would elemental rage dmg apply to grapple maneuvers?(animal fury bite as well?) The rage power states melee attacks only. I say they do because a CMB is an attack rolls RAW but my group says grapple is a standard action and not a melee attack. I need RAW to back up my arguements.
Second was what is your alls stance on armor spikes and if you add str mod to spike dmg on successful grapples?
BTW my barb went Invulnerable rager instead of the brawler one while focusing on grappling. I am glad I did as well. That DR is king.
Nah, I like the idea, I just like smashing things with flaming/one more elemental swords of fury.
As for your question about Elemental Rage, I don't think it would apply to the initial grapple. But I would think if you continue your grapple and use an attack as your "other action," it would apply. It is a melee attack in my mind, it's just attached to a grapple.
Personally, I don't use armor spikes, but I've considered it. Once again, I don't really grapple much, but I bet someone else would be able to answer the question.
Must admit that after having had a look at the Elemental Rage powers and Beast Totem rage powers a two weapon fighting Barbarian should be pretty good. You've got the elemental rage to give the weapons energy damage and the ability to pounce from the beast totem. Seems pretty good to me.
Pounce does NOT work with weapons, which was stated by james jacobs in a "pounce thread".
Pounce relates to NATURAL WEAPONS only (which makes sense considering that u can attack with a bite and 2 claws at once jumping at your enemy, while only doing one attack with an axe on a charge for example).
Therefore a barbarian can only pounce with his two claws (beast totem) , his bite (rage power or trait) and maybe gore attack (gained by fiend totem).
EDIT: Forget about the gore attack. Since you can only choose ONE totem power, it has to be either pounce by beast totem OR gore attack by fiend totem, not both.
steve
While your more then likley right (I'm not digging 200 pages to find it)
Most DMs are much the same in that they barley look at errata, much less some random thread for a rules clarification.
Unfortunetly untill it hits the FAQ or Errata it may as well not exist for 99.9% of games.
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Must admit that after having had a look at the Elemental Rage powers and Beast Totem rage powers a two weapon fighting Barbarian should be pretty good. You've got the elemental rage to give the weapons energy damage and the ability to pounce from the beast totem. Seems pretty good to me.
Oh, it does throw out amazing damage, even with just the Elemental Rage power line. Throwing in all the stats I pointed to a post or two above, I was easily hitting above 50 damage in most cases, up to the 92 points of damage I hit tops last game. With the new level (we all just hit level 11,) Greater Rage kicks in and you are even more likely to put the hurt on people.
The big one... Bolstered Resilience.
...
It only works for one attack a round, but it's GREAT for the Invuln Rager.
Being fatigued after sucks, so just figure out how to make yourself immune to fatigue!1. Good For What Ails You.
2. Level of cleric for Community domain.
IMO the easiest way for a high-level caster to kill a DR-pimped barbarian is for him to prep up a few summons of monsters (with fewer, but massive, attacks) with Greater Invisibility, them sic them on you to grind down your massive mountain of hitpoints.
IMO the best barbarians are non-iconics: guys who alleviate their worthless armor-class by primarily using pole-arms, bows, or UMD/multiclasses for defenses like Mirror Image.
Yes, an axe barbarian is great, a poleaxe barbarian can be even better.
Okay so if I've got a dual scimitar barbarian with pounce and Animal Fury (Bite) I would be able to get one attack with my primary, one with my secondary and one with the bite. Throw in the elemental bonus damage and it still seems good to me.
What about attacks gained through effects like haste? I'm assuming because Jacobs specifically says "not with iterative attacks" and mentions nothing else that the attack gained through the haste spell still works. Would that be correct?
Either way pounce still you gets two attacks with your weapons on a charge and the elemental rage energizes the weapons. Whats not to like?
James Jacobs wrote:
"Pounce works with all weapons, manufactured or not. You CAN´T take ITERATIVE ATTACKS with a pounce, of course, and in most cases that won't be an option anyway since the vast majority of creatures that have pounce are not manufactured weapon users."
While I get the argument to restrict this to natural weapons, I don't see where the iterative attacks element of this is supported in the rules anywhere. True, most critters with pounce don't have iterative attacks, but to put the "of course" in here is confusing to me. Am I missing something?
You're not. In the interest of putting this to bed in this thread, I will say the following:
1. The jacobs quote I've seen many times. The person he was having this dialogue pointed out to him that it just said full attack, and the response was 'well, there's a reason we generally don't give it to pcs.' That sounds like a gm who made a judgment prior to checkibg the rules, then figuring out later it doesn't with that way.
2. There have been errata opportunities and faq opportunities since that post, and the rule guys gave not fixed it. Faqs come back as 'no issue,' which likely means full attack means full attack.
If that doesn't convince you, then I must assume I never will, which leads to point 3...
3. That's enough for me, and in all fairness I'm the one writing this. So. Nyeh.
That is all.
For good AC, you might want to do Savage Barbarian. True, you lose Damage Reduction, but with a buckler, bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, ghost rager, guarded stance, etc, you can come up with some disturbing ACs, and at the higher levels, not getting hit is more important than soaking ten per hit.
So it has come to my attention recently that Barbarians are, to put it bluntly, completely freaking balls-to-the-wall awesome. I've seen lots and lots of various build-advice guides on spellcasters, and one on rangers.
I haven't seen one on barbarians. Is this a thing that has already been done, or is there room for someone to write one? And if there is, I'm totally going to write one, so feel free to add your ideas and theories for good stuff.
That said? Spell Sunder. It is amazing.
Cool guide.
I haven't read the whole guide, but I just want to share something I've been thing about some time.There have been a lot of threads and advice on picking one level Oracle with the lame cures to get immunity to fatigue. Me I don't like it. I don't like the mix and I don't like losing BAB.
If some like multiclassing this might be an option.
6 level barbarian with Roused Anger + 2 levels Horizon Walker with terrain mastery desert:
Make sure you have Roused Anger.
terrain mastery desert:
Desert: The horizon walker gains immunity to
exhaustion; anything that would cause him to become
exhausted makes him fatigued instead.
So by level 8 you are immune to exhaustion. You still get fatigued but that is no problem because you have Roused Anger.
round 1) Rage
Round 2) end rage = get fatigued = start rage again because you have Roused Anger.
Round 3) end rage = get exhausted, but wait you are immune, so you instead get fatigued for 10 minutes = start rage because you have Roused Anger :-)
etc, etc.
Fatigued isn't really a problem. Wait until it wears of (might take a long time) or have a Paladin, Bard, Cleric with Community Domain or restoration domain (healing subdomain) or use lesser restoration.
Horizon Walker also gives you a lot of cool and class skills. Knowledge geography band Stealth are cool .
While I LOVE the Knockdown and Knockback rage powers, I could see where to fit them. Str Surge Makes you eat an AOO but it gets the job done.
Actually neither Knockdown nor Knockback provokes an attack of opportunity. Str surge sure doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Or did I missunderstand you.With Knockdown and Str surge you can trip anything that can be tripped, unless it is too large.
The great thing with tripping someone/something is that a "prone defender takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
So the sucker is easier to hit with the rest of your attacks and when it stand up you get an AoO. Also forcing the foe to use a move action to stand up means it can't full attack you. In the case of casters, they can't take 5 ft step to cast their spell to avoid the AoO.
Knockdown is great.
Can you guys clarify something for me?
My Con goes up +6 when I rage currently, which translates to a +3 increase in my Fort save.
I also have Superstition, which is currently giving me a +4 bonus to any saves against spells, SLAs or SUs.
Do these stack or not?
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You're not. In the interest of putting this to bed in this thread, I will say the following:
1. The jacobs quote I've seen many times. The person he was having this dialogue pointed out to him that it just said full attack, and the response was 'well, there's a reason we generally don't give it to pcs.' That sounds like a gm who made a judgment prior to checkibg the rules, then figuring out later it doesn't with that way.
2. There have been errata opportunities and faq opportunities since that post, and the rule guys gave not fixed it. Faqs come back as 'no issue,' which likely means full attack means full attack.
If that doesn't convince you, then I must assume I never will, which leads to point 3...
3. That's enough for me, and in all fairness I'm the one writing this. So. Nyeh.
That is all.
Sean K Reynolds puts it to rest for real in a recent FAQ:
"Pounce: If have this ability (page 302), can I make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?
Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12"
Ok I may be really bad at reading but where is the full guide?
Or a list of mini guides?
Thanks for the help.
So, there's a lot to read through. I just want to check if I'm right.
Using just the CRB and APG:
2nd level Half-Orc Barbarian with Toothy and Rage Power: Fiend Totem, Lesser, 20 Str [18 + 2 racial] fighting with Great Axe. Am I right to say that this guy really gets, while raging, three attacks as follows:
Axe +9 [2 BAB + 7 Str] (1-12 + 10 dmg), Horns + 4 [2 BAB + 7 Str - 5 Secondary Attack] (1-8 + 7), Bite + 4 [2 BAB + 7 Str - 5 Secondary Attack] (1-6 + 7)?
So that's:
Axe +9 (1d12+10 -> 16 avg.), Horns +4 (1d8+7 -> 11 avg.), Bite +4 (1d6+7 -> 10 avg.), right?
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Axe +9 [2 BAB + 7 Str] (1-12 + 10 dmg), Horns + 4 [2 BAB + 7 Str - 5 Secondary Attack] (1-8 + 7), Bite + 4 [2 BAB + 7 Str - 5 Secondary Attack] (1-6 + 7)?
So that's:
Axe +9 (1d12+10 -> 16 avg.), Horns +4 (1d8+7 -> 11 avg.), Bite +4 (1d6+7 -> 10 avg.), right?
Secondary attacks halve strength bonuses to damage, so the horns are 1d8+3 and the bite is 1d6+3. Other than that, that looks right.
Well, that's something I had wrong. Thanks, DW. Still, seems like a pretty good deal for the Barbarian, just not as outrageous as I first thought.
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Well, that's something I had wrong. Thanks, DW. Still, seems like a pretty good deal for the Barbarian, just not as outrageous as I first thought.
It's not bad, but it doesn't scale as well as it might, since any Enhancement bonus the extra attacks get is gonna scale well behind the axe (as is their damage, since they only get +1 per -1 from Power Attack). They're also worthless against stuff with DR.
It's not a bad trick at all, but worth a Feat and a Rage Power? Maybe, maybe not.
Sean K Reynolds puts it to rest for real in a recent FAQ:
"Pounce: If have this ability (page 302), can I make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?
Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12"
Best. Ruling. Ever.
BTW the 'Best' (re: Most efficient) manuver combo if for Lunge and Str Surge.
Doesn't matter what the move is. Lunge to trip/disarm/etc from reach+Str Surge means you succeed and an opponent doesn't threaten you so they can't AOO.
The only reason I don't reccomend this past 13 is:
1. Any thing more than 1 size larger than you can't be tripped.
2. Most stuff flys by then.
3. Manufactured weapon carrying enemies aren't common enough at high levels to justify disarm.
4. If you're a CaGM barb, you WANT to provoke AOO's so you can interrupt counter attack them.
CM's are cool before 13, but I'd really only focus on it if
1. You're a Lore Warden. (Free Expertise and Massive always on Bonuses)
2. A barb with a spare feat (for lunge. Str Surge should always be taken, cause it works for CMD as well)
3. You find a way to get free action trips (One of the cavalier orders gets this)
Back to TWF barbarians. In short, TWF is too feat and dex intensive to be worthwhile on a barbarian, IMO. Bear in mind that the usual purpose of TWF over THF is to milk additional damage out of additional bonuses like sneak attack and such...Is playing a two-weapon barbarian a Very Bad Idea?
I was thinking shield and some one-hander, and take the various shield feats and two-weapon fighting feats, and go the elemental rage and beast totem route for rage powers. Which means there will be next to no room for other feats or rage powers, which might be a bit annoying, perhaps.
I think it's viable... maybe not the most optimized usage of Feats, but it can work. There's a Barbarian Archetype that can't wear Armor but can use Shields while gaining Nat Armor bonuses. Alternately, you could Multi-Class with the Thunderstriker (Buckler+2Hander) Fighter Archetype. Ranger is a way to get 2WF Feats (or Shield Feats) without meeting the Pre-Reqs.
But honestly, I think you need to approach it from the perspective that you WON'T be taking ALL the 2WF Feats, nor Shield Feats... Because it IS very Feat intensive to do so, and there's better things you'd prefer to take (like Blind-Fight). Greater 2WF just isn't really worth it IMHO... Even for Rogues it probably isn't, unless they are making Touch Attacks. Realistially, any intelligent enemy will be working to deny you Full Attacks if possible (and they don't expect to insta-kill you in 1 round), so all these Feats are wasted if you can't make Iterative Attacks... Even Pounce-Junkies get denied when they can't Charge.
But base 2WF (Dex15) + Double Slice + some Shield Feats (possibly) is workable. Dex 15 really isn't that high... Even if you don't start with that, you should certainly be able to reach it by mid-level, and start your 2WF thing at that point. I really don't understand advice saying 2WF can't work because of the DEX requirement when there's literally tons of advice on how great Come and Get Me is (which is predicated on taking tons of AoOs, depending on Combat Reflexes and a moderately high DEX score). You don't even NEED to take the Feat that lets you keep your Shield AC when you Bash with it, you just make the decision round-to-round whether you prefer extra AC or using Shield Bash/2WF.
2WF DOES shine when you have lots of extra damage bonuses, e.g. Sneak Attack, but you do get damage bonuses as a Barbarian and the Elemental Rage Powers you mentioned in fact are exactly that type of damage bonus, so I think it's definitely workable... Maybe not 'thee ultimate optimize build' but amazingly enough, you don't need that kind of build to take on APL-appropriate encounters or Paizo APs. The Shield Bash-Bullrush Feat is a convenient way to gain attack-substitutable Bullrush, and isn't limited to 1/Rage like Knockback is.
I would recommend checking out the Thunderstriker Fighter Archetype, it's all about using a Buckler and 2-Handed weapon (removing penalties for doing so), and you could multi-class with that pretty effectively... You don't actually need 2WF to make Shield Bashes, so you could skip those Feats entirely if getting extra attacks (when you Full Attack) isn't actually that important to your concept. On the other hand, multi-classing with Two Weapon Fighter or Mobile Fighter archetype is just what you need to get more usage out of 2WF.
BTW the 'Best' (re: Most efficient) manuver combo if for Lunge and Str Surge.
Doesn't matter what the move is. Lunge to trip/disarm/etc from reach+Str Surge means you succeed and an opponent doesn't threaten you so they can't AOO.The only reason I don't reccomend this past 13 is:
1. Any thing more than 1 size larger than you can't be tripped.
2. Most stuff flys by then.
3. Manufactured weapon carrying enemies aren't common enough at high levels to justify disarm.
4. If you're a CaGM barb, you WANT to provoke AOO's so you can interrupt counter attack them.
re: 3, 'justify[ing]' disarm in what sense? the described strategy doesn't need improved disarm since you are Lunging to avoid the AoO (or NOT Lunging to use CaGM), so there is nothing to 'justify': if they are one of the 'rare' enemies with manufactured weapons, then this tactic is viable, otherwise you don't use it. Lunge and STR Surge are useful for other things.
Can you guys clarify something for me?
My Con goes up +6 when I rage currently, which translates to a +3 increase in my Fort save. I also have Superstition, which is currently giving me a +4 bonus to any saves against spells, SLAs or SUs. Do these stack or not?
Yes.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves.
Superstition (Ex): The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities.
Both of these are Morale bonuses, but the first is a bonus to CON, which only INDIRECTLY affects your Fort Save (as a consequence of your effective CON score), so there aren't 2 Morale bonuses 'competing' to affect your Fort Save Bonus.
You can see that Superstition DOESN'T stack with Rage's bonus to Will Saves though, for exactly the same reason, they are both Morale bonuses 'competing' to affect the exact same thing. If Rage gave a bonus to WISDOM instead of directly to Will Saves, then it work like CON does, but that isn't the case so you only use the highest Morale Bonus and ignore the other one.
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I'm thinking about making a barbarian ninja (with an even level split, mainly for flavor, certainly not for optimal damage). The goal is to make a decent grappler that can also use shurikens for the occasional ranged attack. I plan to use my grapples at a range via the kusarigama...
Still, even though it's certainly not as AWESOMER!!! as a straight barbarian, I would love to see comments on my build, in case I perhaps overlooked something or failed to identify excellent cheese opportunities... :)
level 1: improved unarmed strike, improved grapple
level 3: strangler (ult comb - you get to add sneak damage to your grapple damage)
level 5: hammer the gap (ult comb - for shurikens after I get flurry of stars ninja trick)
level 7: greater grapple
level 9: chokehold (ult comb)
level 11: pinning knockout or pinning rend or rapid grappler (ult comb - not sure yet...)
level 13+ if he survives; TBD but potentially from the following list: power attack, shield of swings, raging brutality (bab 12 prereq on that last one...)
also the following class features will be selected after taking the appropriate levels:
barbarian class features:
brawler rage power (unarmed strikes are more damaging when raging), bloody bludgeon rage power (you can pick up someone and beat other enemies to death with him - this one is for the fun factor only!)
hurler archetype (+10 ft. range inc)
ninja class features:
flurry of stars ninja trick (for the few times when I'll be stuck in deep mud or goo! or unable to pick up someone and beat others with it... oh! and intended to be used with HAMMER THE GAP!)
Ok I may be really bad at reading but where is the full guide?
Or a list of mini guides?
Thanks for the help.
Bump? Anyone?
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If you're an urban dip preceding cavalier, it's awesome. Otherwise, 2hPA is the better bang for the buck.Since it seems all the barbarian intel is going here anyway it seems, thought I'd ask:
Is playing a two-weapon barbarian a Very Bad Idea?
The whole twohander barbarians I've had to do with often do way to much damage vs mooks, and ends up struggling with mirror images, blur and suchlike (but I have no experience with them over level 10)
Try grappling Mirror Image punks -- they really hate that.
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ONE level is the only "safe" amount of Wild Rager.
Why one level? You're going to suffer the confusion effect at first level and not gain any of the benefits of the second level.
Exactly, which means it'll be harder for you to kill your allies as quickly after you've blown the sadistic GM's save-a-thon.