Vienemen's page

Does no one like the concept behind the grabarian because its not the top dmg dealing build? I have leveled this single class barb focused on grapple since close to lvl 1 and he has dominated the enemies. Grabbing two foes at once and pinning them later on with greater grapple...fun stuff.

Anyways, I had two thing bothering me that I need help answering. Would elemental rage dmg apply to grapple maneuvers?(animal fury bite as well?) The rage power states melee attacks only. I say they do because a CMB is an attack rolls RAW but my group says grapple is a standard action and not a melee attack. I need RAW to back up my arguements.

Second was what is your alls stance on armor spikes and if you add str mod to spike dmg on successful grapples?

BTW my barb went Invulnerable rager instead of the brawler one while focusing on grappling. I am glad I did as well. That DR is king.

Can I at least get some hits on list as FAQ? Its right next to the reply clicky, just above and to the left of the favorite +

thx

Can no one answer this or is it just a stupid question?

I ask because I am being told in our game that any combat maneuvers are not melee attacks

Elemental rage says it applies to melee attacks. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls.

The animal fury rage power gives a bite attack during grapples, would elemental rage apply to that bite? Would it apply to the armor spike dmg from a successful grapple? Is the armor spike dmg just additional dmg like sneak attack dice and wouldn't apply the elemental rage?

Whats the new one do?

Bump for more FAQ tags on first post please

The extra spike dmg when you succeed on your CMB check is different than the damage option where you can attack with spikes, light or one handed weapon.

I am trying to determine if the spike dmg "extra dmg" works exactly like sneak attack in regards to adding str mod to it or not. It isnt worded the same. I have two conflicting lines of it being both a light martial weapon and the "extra dmg" text under the armor spike section.

I think it needs to be answered in FAQ because no rules point to either being right.

Extra damage is what?

Sneak attack

Stuff like Bane, Flaming dice dmg

Armor spikes are light martial weapons but the description of them says they deal extra dmg with a successful grapple.

Sneak attack dice dont add str mod to dmg. It makes sense that armor spikes would. The armor spikes description doesnt include any of the not multiplying the dmg on a crit wording like sneak attack does.

So is extra damage some kind of category that I dont have rules for?

Is each extra damage listing its own specific case in regards to multiplied in crit, or str mod added to dmg?

If it wasnt meant to add str mod to dmg it seems to me that they would have said add 1d6 armor spike dmg with a successful grapple. Spelled right out in the text.

If you dont know the answer please pump up that FAQ button in the top right of this post. Thanks.

Unarmed strike avoids the -4, but at that point your better off doing another grapple especially if you have armor spikes.

Jiggy wrote:

Or just keep ignoring anything that messes with your ideas.

That's exactly what he's doing.

Agreed

I would say truely bad form to suggest it has to be turned on after using a swift action to already empower it. The swift turns it on if desired, elsewise your stealing the perk.

Sure you can wield a heavy shield with 2 hands....

You won't get AC from it though since it is not being WORN like a shield woudl be. Since a heavy shield is STRAPPED to ones arm to wear properly adn use a shield you could use it as it was intended, or use it 2 handed in a manner it was not intended to be used.

BS, it IS worn like a shield. Its strapped to a char arm when they shield bash with it. You just making stuff up to prevent it when we are using the one handed martial weapon rules and applying it to the shield with our free hand. And your an imp shield bash away from keeping AC

Could I leave a char I love to play here...seems a good spot. He played up through the levels also so it might be more play friendly than a lvl 20 build

Here is Ljot the Pale: Gutbuster
Build: Invulnerable Rager 6
Race: Dwarf (Chose some racial & favored class alternates from APG)
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Ability Scores: (We rolled with subs sorry)
STR 21 (1@4th, +2 Belt of Physical Might)
DEX 13
CON 22 (+2 Belt of Physical Might)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8

Favored Class Bonus: 2 to skills, 4 to rage per day (24 rage per day)
Traits: Glory of Old and Armor Expert (total of +3 to Spells, SLA, and Poison with Hardy...-1 ACP)
Fort: +13(+15 Rage, +18 Spells or Poison) +2 Cloak of Resistance
Ref: +5(+8 Spells or Poison) +2 Cloak of Resistance
Will: +4(+6 Rage, +9 Spells or Poison) +2 Cloak of Resistance
CMB +11(+13 Rage, +14 vs Orcs/Goblinoids)
CMD 22(24 Rage, 28 Giants, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush)

Fast Movement, Rage, Improved unarmed Strike
DR1/-, Animal Fury
Imp Grapple
DR2/-, Lesser Elemental Rage
Endurance
DR3/-, Fire Resist 1, Good for What Ails ya
RP feat instead of Hero points (We do these in our games): Greater Grapple

(Later levels plan to)
Diehard
DR4/-, Increased DR
Fire Resist 2, Pinning Rend, Rapid Grappler, Stalwart
DR5/-, Flesh Wound
Greater Rage, Pinning Rend, Rapid Grappler, Stalwart, Improved Stalwart
DR6/-, Fire Resist 3, Elemental Rage
Indomitable Will, Pinning Rend, Rapid Grappler, Stalwart, Improved Stalwart
DR7/-, Increased DR
Cold Resist4, Pinning Rend, Rapid Grappler, Stalwart, Improved Stalwart
DR8/-, Increased DR
Tireless Rage, Body Shield maybe?
DR9/-, Rage power
Feat
DR10/-, Mighty Rage, Rage power

We do armor=leathal conversion in our games so that diehard lets us use SA when subdual equal leathal...as opposed to being unconcious.

@lvl 6:
Grapple CMB
To hit +15 (+5 Str, +6 BaB, +4 Feat)
Orc/Gob +16 (+5 Str, +6 BaB, +4 Feat, +1 Orc/Goblinoid)
Maintain+20 (+5 Str, +6 BaB, +4 Feat, +5 Maintain)
Bite +12 (+7 Str, +6 BaB, +1 Enhancement, -2 Grappled)
Fury +24 (+7 Str, +6 BaB, +4 Feat, +5 Maintain, +2 Fury)

Dmg
Spike 1d6+6 Move to and grab
Fury+Spike 1d6+1d4+12 Rage, Maintain w/Move+ other SA
Fury+Spike+Strike 2d6+1d4+20 Rage, Maintain w/Strike + other SA
Fury+Spike+Strike+Fury+Spike+Strike 4d6+2d4+40 Rage, Maintain w/Strike + Greater
Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E+Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E 4d6+2d4+40+6d6 Element

Grapple assumes the following:
-The enhancement bonus for enchanted spikes do not count towards the CMB to make the grapple even though you will take a penalty to that roll if your not proficient
-Armor spikes do 1d6+str mod in dmg when they do the additional dmg with a successful grapple
-Barb rage power animal fury will give the bite attack while raging to each maintain attempt (pretty much every grapple roll past the first)
-Any ability that gives dmg per attack (like the rage power lesser elemental) will apply the extra dmg to the Fury bites, the grapple strikes, and the grapple armor spike extra dmg
-the +5 to maintain the grapple is applied to all the CMB grapple attempts during the round after the initial hold is kept(MA, SA, SW for imp, greater and rapid grapple)
-If you chose to do so in the imp, greater, rapid grapple feat scenario, grapple a buddy and move up to x1.5 your speed for the round selecting the move grapple option for each of the 3 attempts that round (creative find CyderGnome)

Other gear: +1 Armor Razors (slash dmg) want to add furious next
+2 Vital Guard Agile Breastplate
+1 Buckler of Light Fortification (will increse fort later lvls)
We came into a tiny bit more cash than norm

His AC and Touch is crap, his DR should cover for lower/mid levels, and I hope to be pinning most foes to keep them from hitting me.

Whatcha think of the Grabarian?

True they can do a full attack on you when you grapple, but I would be spending all actions I can to cause that person to be pinned before they can do that full attack on me.

Let me recap all the above so far

-The enhancement bonus for enchanted spikes do not count towards the CMB to make the grapple even though you will take a penalty to that roll if your not proficient
-Armor spikes do 1d6+str mod in dmg when they do the additional dmg with a successful grapple
-Barb rage power animal fury will give the bite attack while raging to each maintain attempt (pretty much every grapple roll past the first)
-Any ability that gives dmg per attack (like the rage power lesser elemental) will apply the extra dmg to the Fury bites, the grapple strikes, and the grapple armor spike extra dmg
-the +5 to maintain the grapple is applied to all the CMB grapple attempts during the round after the initial hold is kept(MA, SA, SW for imp, greater and rapid grapple)
-If you chose to do so in the imp, greater, rapid grapple feat scenario, grapple a buddy and move up to x1.5 your speed for the round selecting the move grapple option for each of the 3 attempts that round (creative find CyderGnome)

Thats what I got so far...what other grapple qwirks we got left to cover? Damn, with the 3 big grapple feats thats like 3 attacks at highest BaB+5 after the first hold. And your opponent is likely pinned and prone with a single "full attack". By full atk I of course mean SA, MA, SW use. Has good RP flavor and is effective yet not min/maxxed broken.

hogarth wrote:

Jellyfulfish wrote:

I might be wrong, but isn't the whole "i want to use my shield as a main weapon, with the possibility to apply 1.5x STR mod" the way to go for any Battle Cleric worth its salt?

I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I have seen a PC who used a shield 2-handed and it wasn't as dumb as it thought.

The PC had a spiked large shield with the Bashing enhancement, so it had a base damage of 2d6 (1d6 base, with two "virtual" size increases). There aren't that many weapons out there that do 2d6+1.5*Str mod damage and that still allow you to get the AC benefit of a shield.

A +2 defending greatsword? That's all I got. :P

Its quite fun actually. I am playing a 2 handed shield using Crusader in our 3.5/PF mix game atm. Around lvl 7ish. Add Strongarm bracers to what you have above and I am doin like 3d6+7 a hit. Not shabby for a 6k magic itema and feat, plus bashing is cheap and provides the 2 size increase plus the +1 to hit and dmg. I dont plan to throw it though.

I find it very unimaginative of you to be unable to think of creative ways to use both hands on a shield.

I made a custom shield for a char with a top handle for more 2 handed options. But the simple use of one guide arm (plus some oompf) and the other applying force in whatever angle of attack they needed satisfies the logic part.

Hell use your shield to bash forward with both arms to brace, knock the foe down or unbalanced then move your right arm on top of the shield to apply extra force in a downward strike with the edge of the shield...if you have some shield spikes on the bottom as well, its gonna hurt. Even in real life bro.

Remeber the Grappler (The one controlling it) can only cause dame once per round. Grapple Rules (Don't forget the +5 to maintain the grapple)

Damage as in the strike option when making the grapple check, yes. But dont forget the armor spike dmg is in addition to that upon a successful grapple. And dont forget to repeat the above with greater grapple...and again with rapid grapple...oh and animal fury with a free bite per maintain. I asked above how many of these would lesser elemental rage power apply to without any reply yet either. Anyone want to take a stab?

Think of a exciting RP approach...then it doesnt matter what you do as your melee cause its fun to you regardless.

For example. Gutbuster. Look it up if you dont know.

Went barb, grapple focus, and changed all flavor wording of feats, abilities and items to mirror how I pictured them in my head based on the concept.

Charge in with reckless abandon and try to "survive" while shredding your enemies to little bits will keep you on the edge of your seat for sure.

So we are defaulting to if the weapon doesnt specifically say in its description that is it used in a maneuver that its bonuses and feats etc applied to that weapon dont count towards that CMB. Not sold 100% but its better than nothing.

So whats your stance on the armor spikes when doing extra piercing dmg from a grapple being 1d6+str mod or 1d6+ 1/2 str mod?

Would I be also correct to assume that armor spike enhancement would apply to CMB when attempting to grapple or maintaining a grapple?

reason is, if you take a -4 penalty to grapple attempts when not proficient with the spikes you should also receive the bonuses, including weapon focus and enhancement bonus like things to grapple CMB.

I previously thought none of these bonuses applied because your not using the weapon to do the maneuver...after the discussion above I am thinking differently. Do the rest of you see it the same way?

My 6th lvl barb is gettin a little scary dmg wise. Has animal fury and lesser elemental rage powers with greater grapple and 25 str raged.

Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E+Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E

4d6+2d4+34+6d6 Element @ spikes=+str mod dmg

Fury lets me bite to maintain 1d4+3 (x2 for MA and SA action)

Spikes and strikes are 1d6+7 each (A armor spike and grapple dmg action per action, MA+SA)

then lesser elemental is 1d6 per melee atk for the round (I counted the strikex2 and the bitesx2 and the armor spike dmg from a successful grapple checkx2 for 6d6 elemental dmg that round) as swift action (SW)

This assumes all hits of course. All this is a combined swift+standard+move for the round.

Anyone disagree that armor spikes used in grapple do 1d6+str mod? Shouldnt it be half str mod for a light weapon?

I cant think of a rule that says you can not move more than your speed a round that would stop the Monk Booster.

Another grapple question. Anyone think that armor spike enhancement would add to CMB for grapple? Why or why not? If you automatically get the dmg with a successful grapple why couldnt they assist in grappling?

Guess Monks may have a future as booster rockets for the rest of the party? What a disturbing concept.

Ya, got a laugh from me.

So your take on "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." would include the spikes as a light weapon even if it only states it works as such during regular melee attacks. I might be wrong but I for some reason think of a grapple attempt different than a regular melee attack.

Currently in my game, I have only been dealing the 1d6 spike dmg with no bonus based on other players interpretation. I guess they didnt think it counted as a light weapon when the spikes do dmg during a successful grapple attempt.

So when you grapple and deal the extra piercing dmg with the armor spikes what is added to it? Spike enhancement only? Spike enhancement plus 1/2 str mod? Enhancement plus str mod? Enhancment plus 1 1/2 str mod? Where is the rule that states what it is?

I assume in the case of greater and rapid grapple that you could do armor spike dmg when making a grapple check up to 3 times a round correct? (SW, MA, and SA)

Would the +5 bonus to maintain the grapple count for each of the above three attempts? (SW, MA, and SA)

Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

Vienemen wrote:

Recharge arcane pool on crit?

What is that ability? Arcane Critical only gives you one point to spend by your next round.

Ya thats the one, crit roughly 25% of the time giving a temp arcane pool point can greatly prolong the shocking grasp dmg pool.

Pretty big in my book. Assuming 4 fights a day, mid levels have roughly 2 ish points to spend a fight, one for weapon the other for a recall or magus arcana during fight. This crit one lets you potentially have many more uses of those abilities during a fight. This to me is a large power balance shifter. These pools are meant to be a limited resource, and end up being less with this ability.

Its 3rd party though and most keep those out of optimization talks. I guess its just justified sometimes :P

Alot of those SotM and UO:MA really break the mold that Magus Arcana have followed even up through Ultimate Combat book. I am all for optimization but would feel dirty taking many many of those options.

Recharge arcane pool on crit?

I am looking at you as well "Song of..." arcanas.

A 1 point suppress all conditions with another save after failing?

These are available early, if not from the get go.

Dont get me wrong...this is the kinda stuff I wanted magus arcana to be but...now that it is offered, I dont know if I can take any. I am a firm believer in sharing the spotlight and I would have to ACTIVELY go towards that goal with one or more of these.

Why are these so night and day different to the official ones? I know in general 3rd party is slightly bumped in power but these ones stand out and slap you in the face different.

Simple answer is stay core right? Like usual.

First post...enjoyed the dialogue in this thread so far. Old follower of the CharOP boards and nice to see these handbooks etc still thriving.

V