Should the barbarian get his capstone power at lvl 9? Probably not. That was bad planning by the writers.
Should you punish barbarians and remove their capstone at lvl 17? NO
Compare capstone powers:
Fighters - confirm all criticals (Awesome) and their damage goes up one multiplier (Also Awesome). Boat loads of damage potential.
Barbarians - If you remove the tireless rage what do they get? a +2 str/con bonus. WTH? That's it?
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All you have to do is word the contingency something like, 'when something with the potential to seriously harm or kill me attacks me.' There, problem solved.Orange gives one to caster level, not spell DC's.
The quick Will save DC above was in error.
It's +13 JUST from superstition.
Then +2 Iron Will, +5 Resist, +4 Wis, +6 levels, for +30 Will Save, and Improved for a re-roll.I'd personally like to know what wording in a Contingency spell allows it to know 'when combat begins.' I think it will trigger when you get 'attacked' by a mosquito.
Mages abusing Contingency is another hallmark of bad wizard arguments.
I will note that the barb build isn't mature until level 17, because before then it only gets off 1 spell sunder in combat. That's nice, but the ability to chain get rid of everything the mage does with spell sunders really is the power of the class.
And why is everyone assuming summoning beasts would save them? The barb doesn't have to fight the summoned creatures. He has to kill the wizard.
===Aelryinth
Excuse me, WHERE in the COntingency spell does it have the potential to judge what 'might' be able to seriously hurt you? Is there a Detect CR built in? How does it differentiate from a massively overbuilt CR 20 Stone Golem you are flying above but that can't reach you, and it casts a DC 15 SLOW on you, and the tarrasque, which also can't reach you while flying, but can also seriously put a whammy on you? How about an Arrowhawk, that can 'seriously hurt you' if it crits wiht its ranged lightning attack, but is otherwise inconsequential?
A contingency can only react to something that actually happens to you. It CANNOT ANTICIPATE.
And you are making it anticipate. Seriously, if the fighter takes a swing at you as a lark, and stops his sword an inch in front of your face, your Contingency now has to make an intelligent value judgement in MID STROKE. Where exactly does it get the combat experience and intelligence to do this?
Read the spell. It reacts to something that happens to you, AFTER IT HAPPENS. Not before. And it can't be vague, it must be very specific and concrete, or it's going to react at all the wrong moments.
"REact when I am struck for more then ten hit points of damage," is valid. "React when I am struck" means a bottlefly and rain sets it off.
Eesh. It's a spell, not a freaking intelligent magic item.
==Aelryinth.
Woot! We past the 1000 post line.
I think we have beat the barbarian drums enough. Anyone have an alternative melee class they think can stand against a caster?
I am think the next best thing, strategy wise, is stealth. Any Ninja or Rogue build we could try?
I am think the next best thing, strategy wise, is stealth. Any Ninja or Rogue build we could try?
Aww, but are we using the new stealth rules or not? Access to see invisibility is going to be a problem for anyone sneaky in the former case.
I was tossing around idea's for a halfing archer ranger. There are pretty much impossible to find. Hide in plain sight and Camouflage mean that in there favored terrains the can snipe all day, endlessly.
Stealth Skill 23 ranks + 7 (24 dex) + 8 size (need to get tiny, but that's not hard) +2 favored terrain is 40. Halflings can chose to trade up so that sniping only gives a -10 to the skill, throw on some magic items and they can pretty much take 1 and still beat most perception checks.
Throw on the ability to cast non-detection and freedom of movement, and give themselves a +30 to perception and I think ranger is the stealth killer.
Aww, but are we using the new stealth rules or not? Access to see invisibility is going to be a problem for anyone sneaky in the former case.I am think the next best thing, strategy wise, is stealth. Any Ninja or Rogue build we could try?
Lets avoid the new stealth rules for now. There are good tidbits in it and bad (the whole stealth = invisibility).
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Mr. Fishy's rogue steals all the ink in the land...scribe now you rat bastard.
Mr. Fishy's rogue steals all the ink in the land...scribe now you rat bastard.
...so what are you going to do with it?
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Sell it to the barbarian.
Sell it to the barbarian.
But what is he going to do with it? Corner the printing market?
Sorry guys,
those who think you can voluntarily fail the first save for eater of magic, you cant.
Superstition says you MUST make all saves to resist and cannot willingly accept a spell...
Also, while we have really established how Barbs kick a$$. Vs casters, I'm not sure any other melee class is on the Barbs level. Maybe Pally or Ranger.
Pally's are great, the issue is going to be, either a caster can be evil, and get owned, or not be evil and the pally loses a lot of power. I'm monkeying around the with a stealth killer ranger idea.
Paladins can heal themself as a swift action, at level 20 they heal 60 hp/ round and remove a lot of conditions. I think is the more powerful martial class.
Now, no one mentioned that with some money (and the exemple i read are full of gear and money) even a warrior can be invisible with mind blank.
I can honestly say I have read this entire thread. It is surprisingly worth it, even.
I am a fan of AM_BARBARIAN.
I also enjoy how no posted caster has managed to actually do much to AM on the first posting.
As his one true weak spot has been found, what are additional ways to help out the bat?
As to posting on topic. . .
Casters have more options, certainly, but only much more narrative power when they are allowed to do so. Part of it comes from not having a world that is used to high magic, as opposed to sticking high level casters in an equivalent medieval period. Lead lined buildings. Changeable inner structures (can't teleport to a room that no longer exists). Nobles with non-detection to go with their anti-poison.
And C-M D argument is not magic>no magic, which people switch it to whenever a character that is not the M uses items seem to say. Magic should be > non-magic. Just as in a high tech game technology > no technology.
And, as a DM, master craftsmen is an amazing feat. Not everything has to be the most optimal choice for a player, some things that are actually useful for consistent world building are nice occasionally.
Onestly, AM never told how to see a wizard with invisibility + mind blank (no, the wizard is not so stupid to go in blindsense range).
Maybe the wizard can do few damage a round with summon or similar, but is enough if you can't see him.
That's a grey area. If your ranger would benefit from longstrider or feather step or chameleon stride or aspect of the stag or any of the other helpful ranger spells he's not a non-caster anymore. Or if he is a non-casting ranger would probably be better off being a casting capable archetype.
He's got full martial proficiency, which he will use to solve problems. If a cleric uses a greatsword do they stop being a caster?
I can honestly say I have read this entire thread. It is surprisingly worth it, even.
I am a fan of AM_BARBARIAN.
I also enjoy how no posted caster has managed to actually do much to AM on the first posting.
As his one true weak spot has been found, what are additional ways to help out the bat?
If you go mounted fury instead of invulnerable rager, you get a pretty tough horse, you give up 5 DR and 6 resist fire though. At some point in the horses life, it gets polymorph any object'ed into a dire bat, which is permanent. You grab greater ferocious mount, so your mount benefits from all you permanent rage powers, like supersition, allowing it to make a save once and a while. It can also rage, gaining +8 to con, helping it's hit points. Boon companion will make it an animal companion at your level. Mounted skirmisher allows you to pounce when you do a mounted charge, which would allow you to grab a different totem (he was built around a mounted charge already).
If you go mounted fury instead of invulnerable rager, you get a pretty tough horse, you give up 5 DR and 6 resist fire though. At some point in the horses life, it gets polymorph any object'ed into a dire bat, which is permanent. You grab greater ferocious mount, so your mount benefits from all you permanent rage powers, like supersition, allowing it to make a save once and a while. It can also rage, gaining +8 to con, helping it's hit points. Boon companion will make it an animal companion at your level. Mounted skirmisher allows you to pounce when you do a mounted charge, which would allow you to grab a different totem (he was built around a mounted charge already).I can honestly say I have read this entire thread. It is surprisingly worth it, even.
I am a fan of AM_BARBARIAN.
I also enjoy how no posted caster has managed to actually do much to AM on the first posting.
As his one true weak spot has been found, what are additional ways to help out the bat?
Boon companion gives you + 3 level, so your mount became barbarian level -1 as druid level.
But, this is a 3,5 feats. If we use 3,5 feats wizard cant a lot of more interesting feats. Maybe split ray, exausting you or your mount in one round. But it seems that this wizard just need to make you run until you have no more rounds of rage, and you have to use them also for your mount.
Boon companion is +4, and is from Seeker of Secrets, which looks like it's allowed in PFS play.
Boon companion is +4, and is from Seeker of Secrets, which looks like it's allowed in PFS play.
Interesting, i will search, but this don't change nothing. The barbarian still can't even find the wizard.
It seems that this barbarian have a little too much feats and rage powers, or is only a sensation? :)And remember, bat has not true vision from the stone, and illusions can fool it, since illusions can be also uditive and tactile.
This look as a waste of round of rage.
The range of Summon monster is 75 ft, the range of cat's grace is touch, the range of haste is 30 ft, the range of blindsense is 40ft. Every round the barbarian is doing ride by attack, so his charge goes past whomever his target is. He just needs to find you once. Like maybe the round you cast cat's grace, or maybe the round you cast haste. But probably he simply listens for you casting spells, in a strong voice, invisibility and mind blank don't help against that.
Why I should summon a monster at this range? Monsters can move... And I can cast then move, maybe using blink. And you'r using the bat blindsense? It is not so smart, is is not quite intelligent to discover a wizard invisible with mind blank and maybe with illusions.
No way, if a wizard don't want, you will not find him. The wizard you're describing is an idiot. By the way, in my example I buffed a monster from planar ally, not summon monster. Even if he kill the wizard, he can clone himself. Wizards can make an illusion producing sounds that cover the sound of his voice during casting (you can SEE through illusions, not hear)
The funny thing is that all this stuff can be made even by a warrior, he just need money..
Now it's enough for me, this tread WAS funny. I will tell you what i do as a GM.
Once a rage powers become once an encounter, so rage cycling is not useful (is such a stupid thig for a RPG, this is not a videogame).
Mind blank don't stop see invisibility and similar spells.
And everytime I see a rules that overpower a character I will erase o modify.
But more important, I will not give too much gold or magic items to players. Luckily, since I played for 20 years at rpg this are not problem for my party. None of my players try to use rules to do powerplay, and they want to enjoy and not playing Diablo at table, doing gear, and gear, and gear. And if someone pretends to have his character doing all things, well, there's always a good side in this situation.
He don't play with us :)
Why I should summon a monster at this range? Monsters can move... And I can cast then move, maybe using blink. And you'r using the bat blindsense? It is not so smart, is is not quite intelligent to discover a wizard invisible with mind blank and maybe with illusions.
No way, if a wizard don't want, you will not find him. The wizard you're describing is an idiot. By the way, in my example I buffed a monster from planar ally, not summon monster. Even if he kill the wizard, he can clone himself. Wizards can make an illusion producing sounds that cover the sound of his voice during casting (you can SEE through illusions, not hear)
It's just becoming formulaic, someone says a wizard does something, someone else points out that doesn't work, then the wizard introduces something new.
You can't cast summon monster then move, it's a full round action. The bat is awakened. You haven't said up to this point that you are casting illusions.
I can blink every round, even if I summon. I will summon monster at their run range from you, so if you move in my range you have to run and cannot attack, so then I can move.
You can't have an awakened animal companion. So... this end the discussion about the intelligence of the bat.
I can cast illusion when I want. Mainly, before I begin to attack. This is the advantage of stealth. There's also the programmed image, that I can cast before the encounter (the description don't tell i need to choose the area of effect during cast).
The important fact is that you can't see me until I choose to reveal myself, so I have many rounds as I want (remember programmed image to deceive sounds). Maybe you should spend less gold in weapon and buy a ring of invisibility and a "once a day item of mind blank".
Surrender, general rules need a fix for high level. This is true for some spells (because each is a rule by itself), for some barbarian powers, and so on.
Ok, now I'll stop. There's nothing more interesting in this tread. I just repeat what i wrote in the last post. This is not the way RPG are meant to be played, also is evident that not all rules are clear (like the use of awakening).
So basically the magical creatures from Norse Mythology. They are shown to be magical creatures specifically because they can forge weapons such as the mjolnir, and not the hands of normal mortals. No one in norse mythology uses the kind of magic described in D&D, because D&D is a mish-mash of different fantasy stories and mythologies. You are taking these traditions out of context and acting as though the same principles would apply with you mix these traditions in with other traditions.
While Eitri used magic in a forge that was extremely hot, Brokkr worked the bellows so that the fire would not cool down nor get too hot for the magic.There are also dwarfs in Norse Mythology said to hold up the sky. There should probably be a feat for that. :P
Bruenor Battlehammer made Aegis-Fang, plus a magic mace (+1 or +2, I think) for Regis. I'm pretty sure he's in the D&D game.
And Drizzt's +4 Elven Chain.
==+Aelryinth
Always found that he made the armor amusing, cause he's a dwarf
ah crap, this thread got more posts than my Monk thread (i think)
EDIT: nope, nvm ^_^
NO IT'S NOT. BARBARIANS CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!
(sarcasm)
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Whoa. What just happened here? This place is not a place of honor. After a battle like this, there are no victors.
However, in my mind the debate comes down to three factors and one principle:
"Thus if I determine the enemy's disposition of force while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. Victory goes to the formless."
Factor 1: Initiative. Move first, move decisively, you prevail. Deny the enemy a chance at action.
Factor 2: After initiative, the most crucial capacity in these matchups will always be maneuver. Retain the ability to disengage decisively and any round that is not fatal is a round you may recover from.
Factor 3: Denial. After initiative and maneuver, the ability to resist assault is next in importance. Save-or-sucks end fights, as do 50+ hp hits.
Without digging too far, I am afraid that although I prefer fighting-types, in general the casters have greater ability over the levels to dominate Factors 1 and 2. The only hope of fighting-types over time, when pitted directly against casters is more complete dominance of Factor 3 and high enough damage to totally screw the other guy.
Speaking of, AM needs antagonize to!
CLEARLY, BARBARIAN AM DOING THAT ALL THREAD LONG. AM GET MANY CASTYS IN MELEE RANGE.
BARBARIAN AM MAYBE HAVING SPLATTER OF TROLL BLOOD? AM NOT SURE, BARBARIAN MOTHER AM NOT TELLING HIM ABOUT PREVIOUS INCARNATIONS OF BARBARIAN.
Wizards are not as effective when the scenario is heavily stacked against them. This scenario is definitely stacked against the wizard in several ways:1) Barbarian gets ally. Barbarian is designed to overcome many of the wizard's strengths. Said ally is specifically designed to overcome many of the wizard's strengths. Wizard is alone.
It's a 6HD dire bat with no buffs. It has 36 HP, horrible saves, and no AC. WTH are you talking about. If you want a liability that lets you fly go ahead and grab handle animal and train one.
2) The barbarian is allowed to start with buffs that have a duration measured in rounds / level. The bat is allowed to have buffs that have duration measured in 10 min / level. The wizard is restricted to hour / level buffs.
Another WTH? He starts with no buffs. He can not cast magic! He gets rage...a mechanic of his class that is balanced. His bat has NO buffs, just magic items.
3) The barbarian automatically sees the wizard and is within range to kill the caster in 1 turn.
The barbarian and you probably see each other at the same time. Somewhere in the 300-400 ft distance. In fact he might see you first since perception is a class skill for him and not you. So don't complain. We could have given him a surprise round considering this.
He has a very large charge distance, yep. You just have to deal with that. We gave you initiative so stop complaining.
4) People are introducing house rules against the wizard. (Ie. you can't take out a component as part of the casting of the spell, custom magic items for the barbarian, good beings stand around and allow murder.) I wish there was an unbiased judge we could rely on for this but oh well.
Wow! Not a single house rule here. Rules specifically state that elaborate (10K worth of incense and gems) spell components can not be used as a free action when casting spells. The rule has been quoted to you. Pay attention and stop making stuff up.
No custom magic items. Just magic items that you can buy, AKA they are statted in the book. Name one that was custom.
These are NG planetars that do not know you. All they know is that some guy ripped them off their home plane and brought them here. They are now on the material plane in the flesh and can die permanently. You need to explain to them what you want and negotiate with them. Convince them that your a good guy and an crazy barbarian is trying to kill you. This will take time (1-3 rounds of time, maybe more considering that diplomacy takes ~1 min.) Would I allow them to work for free on this once you explained it to them, probably.
The problem is that you want to skip these steps and use gate as an oh no I'm gonna die spell. Gate has been thoroughly shown to not be a good opening move.
1)Can not be used with time stop because it effects other creatures.
2)Takes more than a standard action to cast because it has elaborate spell components. These components need to be drawn from your backpack (at minimum a move action) and set up (probably 1 rnd). Gate is a ritual spell like planar binding, not a summoning spell. It takes prep.
3)Requires negotiation, which takes time, if you summon more than your caster lvl in HD of creatures.
These are the classic mistakes that spell casters make. They read the key points at the top of the spell and skip the description. The description also contains rules that need to be adhered to.
Planar Binding would work even as RAW. The UM has the "truename" arcane discovery. That allows you to summon an 18hd outsider and not pay them anything since you know their truename. No expensive component necessary. A 20th level Wizard could have 6 truenames.Timestop. Summon 6 planetars using truename. Dimension Door, the Wizard could have the prettiest angel summon up a beer and sandwich. She would be rubbing the Wizard's back while the barbarian flounders.
All your planar bindings do not work. We have explained this. TIME STOP prevents you from casting any spell which effects another creature. You are calling these creatures to you and thus effecting them. You can not use this with time stop.