You remember that part where there's no holes in the versatility of the Summoner's list? Try going up against someone immune to mind effecting spells and tell me how good the bard spell list is. Its fine, I'll wait right here.
I had the same thought.
I think the bard has a really solid spell list for what it is, but combat-wise I think the summoner's is the clear winner, even if it's not better 100% of the time.
Where you'd think that the class that can pour out melee damage in combat without having to sacrifice their own actions to do it would have things a little worse than the bard there.
You mean like:
Tasha's as a 1st level spell.
Heroism and Suggestion (and Enter Image which I like) as 2nd level spells.
Charm Monster, Confusion, and Fear as 3rd level spells.
Apparent Master, Dominate Person, and Hold Monster as 4th level spells.
Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk & mass Suggestion as 5th level spells.
Mass Charm, Otto's, Proj Image, and Greater Scrying as 6th level spells.Then add in a number of traditionally divine spells (Freedom Of Movement, et al) and a slew of class specific spells.
That would BE the bard list. It seems that the Summoner is fairly well in keeping with it.
You say Evard's and I say Confusion. You say Maze and I say Otto's.
I think it's fairly on track. Now there are some that get over-highlighted like Haste, but honestly I don't see them getting it a level before a wizard rather than 2 levels after a wizard as problematic. Personally I could see lowering them on the bard list as well.
Now that said, I find that the bard casting mechanic is flawed and that is where the change should occur if any. At the very least have a defined 'spell' level for each spell that determines the save DC, storage into items, and pricing for items rather than have Charm Monster be a 3rd, 4th AND 5th level spell (as an example).
-James
At low levels, you forgot Daze Monster, a 1st level spell for Summoner.
You remember that part where there's no holes in the versatility of the Summoner's list? Try going up against someone immune to mind effecting spells and tell me how good the bard spell list is. Its fine, I'll wait right here.
I had the same thought.
I think the bard has a really solid spell list for what it is, but combat-wise I think the summoner's is the clear winner, even if it's not better 100% of the time.
Where you'd think that the class that can pour out melee damage in combat without having to sacrifice their own actions to do it would have things a little worse than the bard there.
It is all in how the fight goes down. Each Eidolon form has one bad save, so cast a spell that caters to it. (Metagaming I know) If you are fighting a quadra ped the bad save is Will. So hit the Eidolon with its weakness and try to take it out, or put the summoner to sleep for the same effect.
As for the creatures that the summoner can call as a standard action, they are not a problem if you know the appropriate protection spell Good/Evil/Chaos/Law.(Protection spells also work against the Eidolon when summoned by the Summon Eidolon Spell) Lastly you just have to worry about a few new offensive spells that they added to the summoner list.
If you are really worried use a sleep spell, on the Eidolon or Summoner. The Eidolon has diminished hit die, and can be hit by a level 1 sleep spell until the Summoner reaches level 6.
All I am saying is that depending on who goes first and if the eidolon is already in play the battle could go either way.
You remember that part where there's no holes in the versatility of the Summoner's list? Try going up against someone immune to mind effecting spells and tell me how good the bard spell list is. Its fine, I'll wait right here.
I had the same thought.
I think the bard has a really solid spell list for what it is, but combat-wise I think the summoner's is the clear winner, even if it's not better 100% of the time.
Where you'd think that the class that can pour out melee damage in combat without having to sacrifice their own actions to do it would have things a little worse than the bard there.
It is all in how the fight goes down. Each Eidolon form has one bad save, so cast a spell that caters to it. (Metagaming I know) If you are fighting a quadra ped the bad save is Will. So hit the Eidolon with its weakness and try to take it out, or put the summoner to sleep for the same effect.
As for the creatures that the summoner can call as a standard action, they are not a problem if you know the appropriate protection spell Good/Evil/Chaos/Law.(Protection spells also work against the Eidolon when summoned by the Summon Eidolon Spell) Lastly you just have to worry about a few new offensive spells that they added to the summoner list.
If you are really worried use a sleep spell, on the Eidolon or Summoner. The Eidolon has diminished hit die, and can be hit by a level 1 sleep spell until the Summoner reaches level 6.
All I am saying is that depending on who goes first and if the eidolon is already in play the battle could go either way.
I...
Did you read the post you're replying to?
Because I don't think what you're saying has much to do with it.
@Treantmonk
Although you are correct, keep in mind that summoner's spells are going to have a lower DC than a 9 level spellcaster because his spells go only up to 6th level.
Although you are correct, note that every spell I mentioned does not have a DC :)
I...
Did you read the post you're replying to?
Because I don't think what you're saying has much to do with it.
Sorry may have misread. I thought we were on the subject of a Bard vs Summoner and who would win if they did a full on fight. It may have been someone else and I just clicked the last thing that mentioned bard spells. Sorry.
Specifically I was listing Bard spells that were also higher level wizard spells, as the main complaint was how this was so different from other Bard-mechanic casting classes.. yet the Bard is the prime example.As to comparing 'mind effecting' spells to conjurations... I'm sure that people value the later over the former, so be it. But that wasn't what I was refuting.
Then what were you refuting?
The post I replied to stated "the summoner's spells are pretty bad"
I disagree with this opinion, and I stated why:
- the summoner has a lot of great spells on his list
- unlike other "bard style" casting classes there are no major versatility holes
- A lot of spells they get are early entry
Pointing out the Bard also gets early entry spells really doesn't refute any of these points. The only comparison I've made to Bard style casters (which obviously includes Bards) is a lack of versatility in the spell lists of those classes.
I think all "Bard style" casting classes get early entry spells, but those early entry spells for other classes tend to be non-versatile. Your examples support my point, not refute it.
No, they don't actually a few don't have any lower level spells.
I think all "Bard style" casting classes get early entry spells, but those early entry spells for other classes tend to be non-versatile. Your examples support my point, not refute it.
Didn't know that. Good to know.
But I guess I missed your point.. I thought that it focused on early
Summoners get conjurations, buffs, and transport spells. They also have a few enchantments thrown in to that mix.
But as to your list of spells that you mention:
Haste- 1 level before a wizard
Black tentacles - same level as a wizard
Magic Jar/Wall of stone - level after a wizard/same level as a sorcerer
Planar Binding - 2 levels after a wizard, 1 level after a sorcerer
Maze - 1 level after a wizard, same level as a sorcerer.
What I meant was that they get the spell as a lower level spell. I think we're on the same page on this.
Wow...Haste before a wizard. Crazy.
PS: (Small point, not all the spells you listed are no save... in fact half of them have saves).
Actually more than half have saves technically (Haste, Magic Jar, Wall of Stone, Planar Binding), but the saves for all but Magic Jar should be irrelevant if you are doing it right.
I definitely made a mistake saying "all", the DC for Magic Jar is of course very relevant to it's effectiveness (A summoner should take and use it anyways though, it's awesome)
Although you are correct, note that every spell I mentioned does not have a DC :)@Treantmonk
Although you are correct, keep in mind that summoner's spells are going to have a lower DC than a 9 level spellcaster because his spells go only up to 6th level.
I hadn't noticed that.
By the way, how are using the magic jar in order to make the save irrelevant?
Although you are correct, note that every spell I mentioned does not have a DC :)@Treantmonk
Although you are correct, keep in mind that summoner's spells are going to have a lower DC than a 9 level spellcaster because his spells go only up to 6th level.
I hadn't noticed that.
By the way, how are using the magic jar in order to make the save irrelevant?
I'm not. I think you misread my last post. I said:
the saves for all but Magic Jar should be irrelevant if you are doing it right
The "but" is the key word there.
Yes you are right, i missed it.
By the way, how are using the magic jar in order to make the save irrelevant?Well you could be using it like the new lower level version, marionette possession and using it on summons that you've instructed to accept the spell.
Likewise you could be using it on your Eidolon.
But in general the save is relevant here and for Planar Binding. Likewise for wall of stone if you want the option to wall something in. Haste while technically granting a save, is unlikely to matter unless you want to haste something like a 3e forsaker or eat up some levels on an enemy's spell turning.
-James
Those are some interesting uses of Magic Jar, never considered casting Magic Jar on your own summons, but now that you mention it, I could think of several cases this could be handy.
Planar Binding is an out of combat spell, usually cast in down time. If the outsider saves, you normally just cast again. Exceptions exist (thus the "using it properly")
Wall of stone can have a save if you use it to trap, you are better off just using it as a wall spell (a very good and shapeable wall spell), so that there is no save. Unlike Wall of Ice, it also cannot be interrupted with a save, which is helpful.
Globe of Invulnerability renders a large amount of the Summoner's spells impotent
If I'm playing a master summoner, and enemy casters are using casting actions to raise globes of invulnverability, then I've already won.
Think about it, if your caster is using his spell to protect himself against a caster whose primary ability is summoning creatures, and your spell does nothing to protect you against summoned creatures, then you are in a lot of trouble.
as for Majic Jar, the challenge is in making sure you possess the right target.
Not necessarily. Quite often it doesn't matter who you possess.
Round 1: Ally: throws focus into room. Ally 2: closes and holds the door. Summoner: possess an enemy
Round 2: Start attacking other enemies, die
Round 3: Possess an enemy
Round 4: Start attacking other enemies, die
repeat. If one of them saves, that's the one you keep attacking.
When all remaining enemies have saved, open the door and clean up what's left.
There of course are other strategies, this one is a personal favorite.
That's what UMD and oppossable thumbs are for. It's what prying eyes and preemptive casting is for. There's a lot of ways to get around the action economy issue - particularly for one round.
I'm wondering if I understand the point you are trying to make. It could be one of many things, but none of them are making much sense to me.
If your point is that an enemy caster who used divination to get a drop on a Summoner could cast globe of invulnerability before the combat and then have a significant advantage over a summoner in combat because then he can use other spells or actions to deal with the real power of a summoner, then I don't dispute the point, but it's not much of a point, why even bother making it?
If your point is/was that Globe of invulnerability largely makes the Summoner impotent, you've failed to refute my point about the Summoners primary ability not being affected in any way by the globe. I would point out the various spells that I mentioned earlier that would not be affected by a globe of invulnerability, but that would be overkill I suppose.
If your point is it's not an advantage to have normally higher level spells at lower levels because they may be blocked by a globe of invulnerability...well, I think that can't be your point right?
If your point is that because a Wizard/Sorcerer gets up to 9th level spells, a class maxing at 6th level spells isn't as good a caster, then just who were you refuting (did someone make that claim?)
The point I'm making is that globe of invulnerability really isn't the key to dealing with summoners, nor is it some kind of "achilles heel" because the summoner has more ways than most casters to get around this.
If THAT's the point you are trying to refute, then we can have a discussion.
As long as it isn't one of your allies. I'm not saying that the perfect situation for majic jar doesn't exist, just that it's rare enough to question a spontaneous caster spending a precious 5th level spells known slot on it.
Magic jar is one possession attempt - which is basically a save or lose (and potentially better) - that you can use over and over and over again for the spell's duration - that is a whopping 1 hour per level.
A hypothetical character that had one magic jar spell, and nothing else, will be a force for an entire adventure, up to 1 hour/level.
It's beyond worth the slot.
While this can work at times, it's got a few striking limitations:
1. It seems like you are controlling the engagement, which at levels 10+ is a HUGE benefit.
Absolutely. Keep in mind this is one example, and that I made that point in the post.
2. You seem to have a way to communicate with the jar'd PC in order to know when to 'clean up what's left'
Yes, that would be by mouth. When you can no longer possess anyone, you end the spell and return to your body, at which point you say, "Three left, one is wounded" or some such thing.
3. "Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location." Which would seem that you've made it most vulnerable to such attack. Then the creatures continue to make noise, likely buffing and the like.. and you then come in when its quiet to 'mop up'...
If the enemy even knows what is going on, and how magic jar ends if the focus is destroyed (Knowledge: Arcana 15+ spell level), then the enemy just has to sunder a small diamond. Not impossible, but it's not a massive vulnerability to the plan really.
4. Oh btw.. how do you know which enemy saved?
You don't know for certain, obviously the situation will warrant when it is reasonable to assume everyone has made a save. If one creature is left, then it's really easy, if there are several creatures left, you have to use reason.
I'm thinking your impression of the spell has been colored by how it's been allowed to run.. namely with OOC knowledge.
What OOC knowledge are you referring to? I try to avoid intentionally metagaming.
Magic Jar is an awesome spell, but it does have its limitations.
What are you refuting here? My claim was that Magic Jar was an awesome spell. I don't remember any implication that it was without limitation.
One suggestion I would make as SOP is when going into the Jar work with the party for a minute or so until you cannot possess any of them. At least in that way when going around in the jar (or more likely a familiar going around in the jar) you would just waste an action on a PC rather than successfully possessing one.
Interesting idea depending on the situation. Note that in the hypothetical situation I used, PC's cannot be possessed because magic jar requires line of effect.
If you read back you'll find that I said that Globe of Invulnerability makes the Summoner's _spell casting_ largely impotent (I said nothing about the class as a whole) . Of course, the Summoner had other things besides spell casting.
A lot of the spells on the list is not affected by Globe of Invulnerability, haste, summon monster, etc.
As for DM using Globe of Invulnerability just to make the "Summoner's _spell casting_ largely impotent". Sure he can use Globe of Invulnerability all the time and make sure the villain has it cast even before the fight starts.
The DM can also make sure the paladin always fights neutral villains, hit the barbarian with waves of fatigued or exhausted all the time so she can't rage, make sure the ranger never or seldom fights his favored enemy, etc. etc.
If your DM is a jerk, don't blame the game or the class.
and as james pointed out, Globe makes the caster immobile.
Edit: Even if the enemy caster has a globe up the Summoner and his friends are probably fighting more than just one enemy. Odds are slim the rest of the villains are all casters standing in a globe.
You don't have line of effect to your body.. spell ends.. you die. I'm guessing that you are playing it differently here. But I've always had it interpreted that to move the souls their needed to be line of effect from vessel to host.
Yet the spell says specifically when line of effect is required and line of effect to the casters body is not mentioned. Do you have some specific rule you can refer to, or is this a houserule you play with?
Let's see.. someone throws something into the room then all hell breaks loose. You're somehow trapped in the room where they got the drop on you. Somehow if I can't leave I'll at least smash that object and I don't see that as either far-fetched or requiring of understanding how it is working.
Glad you wouldn't find such a situation confusing. Very well, what are you using to crush the diamond?
It is quite possible (especially with my kind of luck) to select the same target over and over again. You can't distinguish the ones that have saved when in the jar.
I realize your consistent bad luck is very important to the conversation from your standpoint, but not really from mine. What you state is possible, but won't happen most of the time.
If you read back you'll find that I said that Globe of Invulnerability makes the Summoner's _spell casting_ largely impotent (I said nothing about the class as a whole) . Of course, the Summoner had other things besides spell casting.
My original point that was the Summoner's spell list fares well compared to other "bard style" casters.
Do you think Globe of Invulnerability makes the Summoner's casting more impotent than other Bard style casters?
You replied that a caster spending his first round of combat nerfing the Summoner's spell casting is vulnerable to the Eidolon.
Actually I said "The Summoner's primary ability". I meant summon monster actually. IMO Eidolon's are good, but overrated.
As for Magic Jar, you keep ignoring or underestimating the problem of accidentally possessing your team members.
I didn't, and when you pointed out that I did, I explained how I didn't. The Hypothetical I used blocked line of effect to the party members. This was not an accident. I've read how the spell works.
What if you can't just lock all the bad guys in a room
Then the one hypothetical (which I clarified was one hypothetical strategy) wouldn't work and you would need a different strategy.
(let's be serious here and acknowledge that that perfect situation isn't going to be common)
I absolutely acknowledge that.
Will you acknowledge that in actual gameplay situations are far too variable to possibly come up with a one size fits all strategy for any spell?
You possess your party's fighter as the enemy is charging. Now, you must survive one round of combat against someone who is trained to fight with weapons. How much damage are you going to inflict on your poor fighter party member?
At least my situation is possible. That I would forget how the spell works and randomly possess someone knowing that the party members were viable targets while the party being charged isn't.
Are you looking for a strategy using magic jar that fits that situation? If so, I need more details, and I'll let you know if I can come up with one.
It's how I've seen it ruled. You seem to claim that 'within range' travels through barriers unlike any other spell's range.
According to the spell,
ou can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures
The reason it has to specify this is because according to the rules, you need line of effect to the target when casting a spell. That would be line of effect from the caster to the focus when the spell is cast.
The idea that you die if your spell effect ends when that effect no longer has line of effect to your body has no support within the rules.
Do you play with a similar rule if your arcane eye is destroyed when you don't have line of effect with your body?
Sarcasm aside.. think about it. Someone throws something into the room, locks the door and suddenly bad things happen. Yeah time to twiddle my thumbs here...
So I'm obviously attacking the diamond?
I'm probably going to be confused. I might panic. I might try to bust the door. I might try to reason with my friend turned enemy. I might get my friends who haven't turned on me help me grapple the friend turned enemy.
I don't subscribe to your "Your friend just attacked you, obviously you will attack the diamond that got thrown to the floor."
If I was an expert in the knowledge of magic and knew that the diamond could be a magic jar focus, I would react differently of course.
As to 'what do I use'? Well that depends what I have available... anything?.. in this situation where I'm locked in a windowless room...
"Anything" probably isn't going to crush a diamond, so no worries.
Heck if it's a diamond I might pick it up and put it away.. cool thanks for the diamond.
I thought you would obviously attack the diamond with anything you had? Very well, you're not putting it in your pocket or in your money pouch though I assume. You'll put it in something that blocks line of effect?
I know...Obviously.
It'll happen more often than you can surprise enemies that you can trap in a small room behind a door..
Serves me right for dealing in specifics rather than vague generalities I suppose.
Very well, I'll generalize my statement: Magic Jar is really good for sorcerers. Tactics vary based on situation. Don't ask for examples.
It also might be helpful to throw a handful of diamonds into the room, then they may not be able to discern which one is magical without a detect magic going, and then there is that illusionary magical aura spell as well.
Also, it is not far fetched for a heated debate to go on between evil creatures about which one gets the treasure. I mean, sometimes it would work even without an actual spell. Like the orcs killing themselves over a particular mithril shirt when Sam was coming to the rescue.
Not at all, i can make a conjuration based specialist with a wizard that would put the sad excuse for a "summon"ner to shame. The entire ether or thing with the Eidolon or summon monster class ability just pisses me off about this class.
A summoner really should have forgone all the spell list crap, and just dove head first into conjuring beings into existence.
From casting Iron Maw and having damage dice higher than colossal for slam..and it being his only attack form...can you say Vital strike for 18d8 damage Plus triple str mod?Where's the triple strength mod from? Vital Strike does not multiple STR mod to damage, only weapon damage dice.
Taking the bite evolution a second time gives the eidolon's bite attack a x1.5 STR mod., even if it has additional attacks.
I know Summoners aren't technically forbidden from using necromancy, but 7 years - and an unchained remake - is a long time for an answer.
I certainly hope they've solved their issues and made their mind in the meantime.
Besides, we'll eventually get yet another, 2.0 remake of that class. And with 2 controversial versions of it under their belt, Paizo has more to chew on for this than they do for any other class.
A six month auto-lock on this board would be so helpful.
anyone care to post a summoner higher than level 1 to show us how it's done?
To what end? Do you just want to see what a mid or high level summoner can do, or do you want to compare it to some existing character, or what?
If you choose one then it's possible to make a character to match.
all the above, why not.
This has a real, "Dance for me, oh internet monkey!" vibe going on, friend.
I suggest a little respect for the person offering to spend some time and energy to help you out. And, y'know, communicating.
To answer the original post, the summoner really isn't that overpowered. But then again almost every class in PF can get ridiculously "OP" when either studied in a complete vacuum or built so razor thin to specifications. For example; with a little skill and a LOT of splatbook scouring you can make a rogue (unchained or otherwise) by level 14-16 hit a +47 to +55 stealth bonus, that CAN NOT BE SEEN (yay hellcat + hide in plain sight) nor detected with minimal magic item assistance and 0 core 6 magic items