Is the summoner overpowered? And if so is he wizard underpowered or super mega overpowered?
The summoner is in no way overpowered. The eidolon is a bit strong at the first few levels, but as it scales in level its power quickly lowers in comparison. The summoner's spells are pretty bad and if the eidolon gets "killed" he can't use it for the rest of the day and has to use the summon monster x spells he gets as per the gate spell. All things given the wizard is much more versatile and powerful imo.
Is the summoner overpowered? And if so is he wizard underpowered or super mega overpowered?
my god, another one of these?
apparently, chances are the Eidolon you think is insanely awesome was built wrong
and then +1 to everything pipedreamsam said
Nope.
The summoner is in no way overpowered. The eidolon is a bit strong at the first few levels, but as it scales in level its power quickly lowers in comparison. The summoner's spells are pretty bad and if the eidolon gets "killed" he can't use it for the rest of the day and has to use the summon monster x spells he gets as per the gate spell. All things given the wizard is much more versatile and powerful imo.
+1
I will also suggest that if you(OP) are a new GM to not allow the summoner until you get a grasp on the rules.
Another question: Can you make a summoner who doesn't get summon monster? I like the idea of having one pet, not a horde of lame monsters and paperwork
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Another question: Can you make a summoner who doesn't get summon monster? I like the idea of having one pet, not a horde of lame monsters and paperwork
Simply Ignore that you have the ability and focus on your creature; but when you creature poofs or you need something different its not bad to have as a back up, At least Thats what I did. Worked out fine so far.
Is the summoner overpowered? And if so is he wizard underpowered or super mega overpowered?my god, another one of these?
apparently, chances are the Eidolon you think is insanely awesome was built wrong
and then +1 to everything pipedreamsam said
This is exactly my thoughts. I've never seen one of these "SUMMONERS ARE OP OMG!!!" threads that wasn't unraveled by posting a build and having fourteen posters tell them why the build was invalid.
Summoner is just ridiculously complicated and contains more exceptions to the rules than any other class. As a result, summoners are often build incorrectly.
As far as not using summon monster, just ignore it. You can only have your eidolon OR a summon monster out at any given time, and there are plenty of instances where it's better not to use the eidolon.
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Is the summoner overpowered? And if so is he wizard underpowered or super mega overpowered?my god, another one of these?
apparently, chances are the Eidolon you think is insanely awesome was built wrong
and then +1 to everything pipedreamsam said
This is exactly my thoughts. I've never seen one of these "SUMMONERS ARE OP OMG!!!" threads that wasn't unraveled by posting a build and having fourteen posters tell them why the build was invalid.
Summoner is just ridiculously complicated and contains more exceptions to the rules than any other class. As a result, summoners are often build incorrectly.
As far as not using summon monster, just ignore it. You can only have your eidolon OR a summon monster out at any given time, and there are plenty of instances where it's better not to use the eidolon.
Now I HAVE built a Summoner correctly and can say that it is also easy to make what some might consider an OP eidolon but really its up to interpretation (though one of the players in my group spouting nonsense about his Dragon Disciple winning against my Eidolon in Melee ALMOST convinces me to show him the error of his ways.. can you say Vital strike for 18d8 damage Plus triple str mod?
But yeah it will depend on how you build the Eidolon to measure when it should be utilized or not (quick hint Perfect flight wins)
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Its a 4th level Druid/3rd level Ranger Spell that increases a creatures Natural attacks by two steps... I believe its from the APG ..or CRB, you can use the pfsrd or the prd to find the specifics
Oh and balance will probably never be the case in any rendition of Fantasy without stripping every class down and giving them all the same reflavored abilities. plus Wizard...
If it was bite and not slam you can Evo the bite to have a higher Str bonus multiplier as well.
(no idea if it was, but sharing a thought.)
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thing is Eidolon's Slam starts at 1d8 and it already has parameters for damage by size, I use that parameter and the chart to determine what Colossal would be for an Eidolon's slam which is acording to this chart would be 4d8 but I have damage boosting Evolution which just increases Dice size NOT size so either 6d6 or 6d8 (nat weapons are weird) It get that and Vital stike doing (because the damage is doubled) 12d6 (or 12d8) + and additional 6d6 (or 6d8)+ double everything else static because it says double the damage from the attack.
Another thing it says damage from the natural attack is doubled not damage dice, last time I checked damage included everything static that is not extra damage, you also dont need Greater Vital strike only Vital strike, improved would be better, though.
Wizard = Turbo Overpowered
Summoner = Mega Overpowered
Commoner = Hyper Overpowered
House Cat = Uber Overpowered
thing is Eidolon's Slam starts at 1d8 and it already has parameters for damage by size, I use that parameter and the chart to determine what Colossal would be for an Eidolon's slam which is acording to this chart would be 4d8 but I have damage boosting Evolution which just increases Dice size NOT size so either 6d6 or 6d8 (nat weapons are weird) It get that and Vital stike doing (because the damage is doubled) 12d6 (or 12d8) + and additional 6d6 (or 6d8)+ double everything else static because it says double the damage from the attack.
Another thing it says damage from the natural attack is doubled not damage dice, last time I checked damage included everything static that is not extra damage, you also dont need Greater Vital strike only Vital strike, improved would be better, though.
you mind doing a step by step breakdown. As I am reading it, it sounds wrong, but it could just me misinterpretating what you are trying to do.
The dragon disciple might win, but it does not seem likely. He probably has some spell combo he plans to use if he is so sure of victory.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The summoner's spells are pretty bad...
and then +1 to everything pipedreamsam said
+1
You guys are apparently playing a different game then me. IMO, the summoner spell list is superior to any other "bard template" spell list in the game. Not by a little bit either. Haste level 2 spell? Black Tentacles level 3 spell? Magic Jar/Wall of stone level 4 spell? Planar Binding (not lesser) level 5 spell? Maze level 6 spell?
That's early entry to many of the best spells in the game. Also, unlike most "bard template" casters, there are no major holes in versatility.
That said, I would suggest when analyzing the power of a Summoner, WAY too much emphasis is put on the Eidolon. This is a class that casts the most versatile spell in the game (all 9 levels of it) as a spell like ability, standard action, 3+cha times per day. The duration is extended 20 times.
Let's be clear what that means: A Conjurer wizard, specializing in summoning, arguably one of the most powerful builds in the game, casts SM (his primary spell) less, slower, and less effectively than a summoner.
Is the Summoner overpowered? I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely on par with the most powerful classes in the game.
@Treantmonk
Although you are correct, keep in mind that summoner's spells are going to have a lower DC than a 9 level spellcaster because his spells go only up to 6th level.
This is exactly my thoughts. I've never seen one of these "SUMMONERS ARE OP OMG!!!" threads that wasn't unraveled by posting a build and having fourteen posters tell them why the build was invalid.
Now I HAVE built a Summoner correctly and can say that it is also easy to make what some might consider an OP eidolon but really its up to interpretation (though one of the players in my group spouting nonsense about his Dragon Disciple winning against my Eidolon in Melee ALMOST convinces me to show him the error of his ways.. can you say Vital strike for 18d8 damage Plus triple str mod?
cant wait for classic 3 act: [posting of the claimed OP build]
please post that build - you might win the price for the first (corectly build) overpowered Eidolon! :)
IMHO:
The summoner isn't exactly overpowered in the general case, but in the hands of a smart player it WILL run roughshod over any published module run as written that isn't designed with the summoner in mind. In other words, about all of them.
This is in part because of the Eidolon being able to get a really good AC without sacrificing much/any offense, in part because the Eidolon is essentially disposable, and probably mostly because of the Summon Monster ability and not the Eidolon at all. (Yes, a wizard or cleric could cast the same summon monsters. The Summoner dwarfs them in volume and duration. An 11 wizard can't really get a shadow demon to scout a whole dungeon for him and kill all the mooks that can't really even hurt it on the way -- an 11 summoner can, and if something does kill the shadow demon, he's got ten more in the can.)
So: Do you need to ban the summoner in your game? Not necessarily. Do you need to ban the summoner if you, say, want to run Curse of the Crimson Throne as written with little in the way of embellishments or extra work on your part (e.g., you grab the community 3.5->PF conversions for the AP and don't deviate further from there)? Yeah, you probably should.
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I think the summoner is powerful at certain times, mainly in the first 5 levels. And then it starts falling off a bit.
The early attacks from celestial eagles and eidolons make them very strong early. Although I haven't seen it in action, I think around level 6 or 7 they start falling off quite a bit. That level is when most classes have their first massive spike upwards in power (fighters get their +6 BAB, wizards get level 3 and 4 spells, lots of class abilities start kicking in).
I still wish the summoner had less battlefield control spells and debuffs and more buffs. I definitely want more fun eidolon forms and powers instead of a fighting monster that it's highly suited for (like spell casting, or buffing caster, or small stealth forms).
The summoner's spells are pretty bad...and then +1 to everything pipedreamsam said+1You guys are apparently playing a different game then me. IMO, the summoner spell list is superior to any other "bard template" spell list in the game. Not by a little bit either. Haste level 2 spell? Black Tentacles level 3 spell? Magic Jar/Wall of stone level 4 spell? Planar Binding (not lesser) level 5 spell? Maze level 6 spell?
That's early entry to many of the best spells in the game. Also, unlike most "bard template" casters, there are no major holes in versatility.
That said, I would suggest when analyzing the power of a Summoner, WAY too much emphasis is put on the Eidolon. This is a class that casts the most versatile spell in the game (all 9 levels of it) as a spell like ability, standard action, 3+cha times per day. The duration is extended 20 times.
Let's be clear what that means: A Conjurer wizard, specializing in summoning, arguably one of the most powerful builds in the game, casts SM (his primary spell) less, slower, and less effectively than a summoner.
Is the Summoner overpowered? I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely on par with the most powerful classes in the game.
+1 to everything? I think not, you need an amulet of mighty fists for that, an amulet of magic fang will not cut it (Works on a single attack)
Despite the fact that the Summoner can cast a wide variety of summon spells, he lacks the best summoning spell in the game Elemental Swarm. But don't worry, the Druid who has an animal companion can easily pick it up, in fact the druid can actually summon more creatures than a summoner when you break it down with summon nature's ally. As long as we are talking about spells the summoner gets okie dokie.
Haste - Not usable for natural attacks, so unless you want the Eidolon to use manufactured weapons, then you are looking at a spell that gives +1 to armor attack and reflex saves. I would never pick this for my Summoner.
Black Tentacles - Awesome spell.
Wall of stone - In my memory I have never had anyone cast a wall spell. I would much rather have a useful spell such as phantasmal killer.
I am running out of time to type this but you get the point, to get a few spells ahead of time only to be stripped of the most powerful spells in the game is a horrible trade off.
I'm playing a summoner in Serpent Skull and the one thing I am finding is that the real limitation for a summoner is the limited number of spells known.
At lvl 14 and 18 Cha, my spells known is just as high as my spells per day. This is the real limitation of the class.
The other issue I'm having is that my Summoner has more HP than my Eidolon (we do max HP for all HD). An Eidolon has a 3/4 HD/lvl progression and that can become a problem. It has a slower hit progression too. I may be able to do 3d6 dmg per round but I have to hit with all of them, but my to hit is only +5, as opposed to our fighter and ranger who are getting +10 after power attacking.
Also, don't over think it, Will saves. What else would you use against a fighter type?
Haste - Not usable for natural attacks, so unless you want the Eidolon to use manufactured weapons, then you are looking at a spell...
I see why you would say that but it kinda makes the clay golem's haste ability a waste of time or on a monk or a shapechanged druid...has this been clarified? perhaps the "weapon in hand" bit is flavour...
EDIT: Thank you Noah for the link...I was sure I've seen this come up before
Haste not usable for natural attacks?
Are you certain?
THANK YOU. I was looking for that all morning. :)
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?
Not that I have seen...THF with falchion generally does.
Ok, if haste grants an extra natural attack. Is this on top of the Eidolon's maximum attacks or is the hasted Eidolon still limited by his max attacks per round?
On top of...just as 1st level fighter isn't limited by his max attacks a round.
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?Not that I have seen...THF with falchion generally does.
According to Magicdealer's going through the posts in the first Man in Black DPS thread, that isn't true.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDPROlympicsOrImNotTheMechanicHereIronsidesIMostlyJustHurtPeopl e&page=16
I don't know how to link a specific post, and his has lots of spoilers in it, but it looks like the noncontroversial summoner build is doubling the falcion fighters DPR. If you look at the top 10 listing a charging barb beats a charging summoner, but thats pretty much it. Deathdealers Eidolon is out damaging most of the fighters in the thread(though his eidolon has one extra attack).
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?Not that I have seen...THF with falchion generally does.According to Magicdealer's going through the posts in the first Man in Black DPS thread, that isn't true.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDPROlympicsOrImNotTheMechanicHereIronsidesIMostlyJustHurtPeopl e&page=16
I don't know how to link a specific post, and his has lots of spoilers in it, but it looks like the noncontroversial summoner build is doubling the falcion fighters DPR. If you look at the top 10 listing a charging barb beats a charging summoner, but thats pretty much it. Deathdealers Eidolon is out damaging most of the fighters in the thread(though his eidolon has one extra attack).
Well, you can't just dismiss a barbarian, no matter how much you try.
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?Not that I have seen...THF with falchion generally does.According to Magicdealer's going through the posts in the first Man in Black DPS thread, that isn't true.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDPROlympicsOrImNotTheMechanicHereIronsidesIMostlyJustHurtPeopl e&page=16
I don't know how to link a specific post, and his has lots of spoilers in it, but it looks like the noncontroversial summoner build is doubling the falcion fighters DPR. If you look at the top 10 listing a charging barb beats a charging summoner, but thats pretty much it. Deathdealers Eidolon is out damaging most of the fighters in the thread(though his eidolon has one extra attack).
Don't summoner's generally lead the various DPS measuring threads?Not that I have seen...THF with falchion generally does.According to Magicdealer's going through the posts in the first Man in Black DPS thread, that isn't true.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDPROlympicsOrImNotTheMechanicHereIronsidesIMostlyJustHurtPeopl e&page=16
I don't know how to link a specific post, and his has lots of spoilers in it, but it looks like the noncontroversial summoner build is doubling the falcion fighters DPR. If you look at the top 10 listing a charging barb beats a charging summoner, but thats pretty much it. Deathdealers Eidolon is out damaging most of the fighters in the thread(though his eidolon has one extra attack).
Deathmaster: first summoner (summoner) entry 129.35 to 134.07
MM178: first Eidolon (summoner) entry 283.5 DPR debatable use of rulesPinky’s Brain: first Kentaro Miura (summoner) entry 212.4 dpr – rules arguments ensued.
Thepuregamer: first summoner entry 249.5 to 296.9 dpr, uses limited use items, doesn’t follow minimum save rules, exploits some rules vagueness. Much debate followed…
Thepuregamer: second summoner 2punchy 110.46 to 125.083 130.594 dpr, errors were found, build revised.
Thepuregamer third summoner punchy strike back entry 199.162 to 245.55, more debate about legality of the build.
Thepuregamer april 1st build reverse the ridden (summoner) entry 343.242, much, much more debate and argument follows. Revised, dpr remained the same. Then argument over wealth-by-level, and more issues with the build…
Tarantula: first summoner charge entry 218.79 while charging
I noticed there were a lot of errors regarding the Summoner, rules exploits and errata required. I take your point though however it would hold more if the builds you suggest weren't flawed. Your opinion may vary.
EDIT: all it really proves to me is that when people say the Summoner is over-powered they should be saying that the eidolon has been built wrong but we haven't really checked it
Haste not usable for natural attacks?
Are you certain?
Despite this, my DM has put his foot down on this issue. A claw is not a held weapon, so it doesn't count. Much in the same way that an Eidolon is a creature summoned by a ritual and not a spell so he will not get benefits from augment summoning, nor will the spell like abilities of the summoner because they are spell like abilities and not spells. He is playing strictly as written, and as a result it is very difficult to play a summoner.
Life link is useless, because of unconsciousness, ect. Things are taken strictly as written and not as they are meant to be played.
Life link is useless, because of unconsciousness, ect. Things are taken strictly as written and not as they are meant to be played.
I would get him to tell me what the intent of the ability was then.
If he insist on being a jerk you can invite him here and inform that death does not mean you can't play your character if he is going directly by the book.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
There is nothing there that says you can no longer take actions. He can use the rules as written or he can use common sense. That might get you booted, but unless he is the only GM in the area it is not like you are losing much.
Now compare dead to paralyzed which specifically says you can't take actions to prove your point.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Common sense or the words as exactly written? Ask him. :)
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You guys are apparently playing a different game then me. IMO, the summoner spell list is superior to any other "bard template" spell list in the game. Not by a little bit either. Haste level 2 spell? Black Tentacles level 3 spell? Magic Jar/Wall of stone level 4 spell? Planar Binding (not lesser) level 5 spell? Maze level 6 spell?
You mean like:
Tasha's as a 1st level spell.
Heroism and Suggestion (and Enter Image which I like) as 2nd level spells.
Charm Monster, Confusion, and Fear as 3rd level spells.
Apparent Master, Dominate Person, and Hold Monster as 4th level spells.
Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk & mass Suggestion as 5th level spells.
Mass Charm, Otto's, Proj Image, and Greater Scrying as 6th level spells.Then add in a number of traditionally divine spells (Freedom Of Movement, et al) and a slew of class specific spells.
That would BE the bard list. It seems that the Summoner is fairly well in keeping with it.
You say Evard's and I say Confusion. You say Maze and I say Otto's.
I think it's fairly on track. Now there are some that get over-highlighted like Haste, but honestly I don't see them getting it a level before a wizard rather than 2 levels after a wizard as problematic. Personally I could see lowering them on the bard list as well.
Now that said, I find that the bard casting mechanic is flawed and that is where the change should occur if any. At the very least have a defined 'spell' level for each spell that determines the save DC, storage into items, and pricing for items rather than have Charm Monster be a 3rd, 4th AND 5th level spell (as an example).
-James
I agree on the part that spells should have an 'innate' spell level which counts for the creation of magical items and spell like abilities of monsters.
You guys are apparently playing a different game then me. IMO, the summoner spell list is superior to any other "bard template" spell list in the game. Not by a little bit either. Haste level 2 spell? Black Tentacles level 3 spell? Magic Jar/Wall of stone level 4 spell? Planar Binding (not lesser) level 5 spell? Maze level 6 spell?That's early entry to many of the best spells in the game. Also, unlike most "bard template" casters, there are no major holes in versatility.
That said, I would suggest when analyzing the power of a Summoner, WAY too much emphasis is put on the Eidolon. This is a class that casts the most versatile spell in the game (all 9 levels of it) as a spell like ability, standard action, 3+cha times per day. The duration is extended 20 times.
Let's be clear what that means: A Conjurer wizard, specializing in summoning, arguably one of the most powerful builds in the game, casts SM (his primary spell) less, slower, and less effectively than a summoner.
+1
Is the Summoner overpowered? I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely on par with the most powerful classes in the game.
+ 0,5
