I am playing in a four man group, and by process of elimination have been chosen to be the 'rogue' character. I am not terribly fond of the class in general, as I prefer more of a Druid or Wizard type role. What are some good alternatives to playing a core rogue that won't limit my growth at higher levels or overlap other players roles?
P.S. Arcane Trickster is an option I am thinking of, what are the limitations of this PrC?
What were the choices of classes, and what class features do you need to have ?
There are some options to mimic class features of the rogue witout taking rogue, perhaps dipping (urban) ranger and going (vivisectionist)alchemist, to get trap finding, sneak attack and magical ability as per the alchemist.
Arcane trickster is lacking in attack bonus, but very suitable as a skill monkey with magic to fit situations where skills don't do the trick, not a bad character though not very specialized for a specific function.
In your situation, I would either go with an alchemist (vivisection or not, doesn't matter) or a wizard with one level of rogue.
The other players are:
Fighter(offensively inclined)
Cleric(focus not as yet determined, but probably healer/blasty)
Wizard(buffer and blasty)
I will probably end up being face/skill monkey/trapfinder.
Choices are from PF core(APG/UM/UC when it releases).
I am playing in a four man group, and by process of elimination have been chosen to be the 'rogue' character. I am not terribly fond of the class in general, as I prefer more of a Druid or Wizard type role. What are some good alternatives to playing a core rogue that won't limit my growth at higher levels or overlap other players roles?
P.S. Arcane Trickster is an option I am thinking of, what are the limitations of this PrC?
A druid with a decent int score can easily take all of the needed rogue skills. Wisdom plays well to the perception skill, you have a base of 4 skill points per level.You can't disarm magic traps, but you can use spells like stone shape to go around them or dispel magic to end them.
The main disadvantage of an arcane trickster is that it reaaaaly blows chunks for a few levels while you're not advancing your casting.
P.S. Arcane Trickster is an option I am thinking of, what are the limitations of this PrC?
As someone who spent more hours/years than I care to think about now playing a 3.5 AT in a living campaign, I'll offer the following opinions (which Pathfinder rules would adjust a little, but I wouldn't say a lot):
1) Try to think of yourself as a rogue who trades talents and some skill points for extra stuff, rather than a wizard with some rogue stuff. I think this is less depressing. You're always going to be behind the curve of wizard power and rogue combat ability, but you can keep pretty good pace with a rogue's skills and also have a lot of versatility.
2) I think trying to pour out the sneak damage via rays, your stereotypical AT combat routine, is a trap. You can throw a lot of resources at this and still never do very good damage. I think it's better to take more of a support role in combat and focus in general on being the ultimate utility character. No matter what the party's non-combat problems are, you probably have a solution.
That all being said, I think it's a lot of fun to play.
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Why do you have to be a rogue? Play what you want. Trap Sense? There are a ton of archetypes that get this (Bards get a few, rangers too).
Alchemist can do everything a rogue can do, but much better. Especially as a Vivisectionist.
But seriously, play what you want. You don't *need* any set role. Hell, ranger/bards/paladins/witchs can all play the role of healer, not just oracle or cleric. Got a fighter with high HP? Great! He's your trap monkey.
People being forced into roles really ticks me off >:|
Play a Bard, get a ton of skills and cool stuff.
Or an Inquisitor! Or anything but that god awful rogue.
The other players are:
Fighter(offensively inclined)
Cleric(focus not as yet determined, but probably healer/blasty)
Wizard(buffer and blasty)I will probably end up being face/skill monkey/trapfinder.
Choices are from PF core(APG/UM/UC when it releases).
I'm a big fan of Inquisitor for FoP (Conversion inquisition/Infiltrator archetype). You don't get trapfinding, but you also hardly care. Make the Wizard handle it with their spells if you got the short straw. You get solid skills and a fair amount of versatility.
2) I think trying to pour out the sneak damage via rays, your stereotypical AT combat routine, is a trap. You can throw a lot of resources at this and still never do very good damage. I think it's better to take more of a support role in combat and focus in general on being the ultimate utility character. No matter what the party's non-combat problems are, you probably have a solution.That all being said, I think it's a lot of fun to play.
Not true, assuming G.Ivisibility + Scorching ray (minimum caster needed 11 for 3 attacks) and (6d6 sneak attack): you deal 3 attacks that deal base 4d6 fire + 6d6 sneak attack (also fire) =30d6.
Average damage around 94.5 damage (so sometimes 94 and other times 95).Assuming not Fire resistance, you are dealing decent for a 2nd level spell. Add Twin or Quicken for another shot and you deal 190 damage.
It would take time to come into being great though.
I am playing in a four man group, and by process of elimination have been chosen to be the 'rogue' character. I am not terribly fond of the class in general, as I prefer more of a Druid or Wizard type role. What are some good alternatives to playing a core rogue that won't limit my growth at higher levels or overlap other players roles?
P.S. Arcane Trickster is an option I am thinking of, what are the limitations of this PrC?
The easy way to play a wizard but covering the rogue stuff is to play a wizard, Detect Traps and Knock do all the stuff rogues do that no one else can do. I've already heard tell there is a new bard type that gets the trap finding abilities in UC. Play that.
Don't play an Arcane Trickster, it's the worse of two worlds and just doesn't keep up. (I've tried multiple times.)
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Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor... All are good choices.
If you want to be a face, and you've got a cleric and a wizard, there's still space for a sorcerer or oracle, too. Let the party Wizard take care of the wizard stuff, and let the party Cleric do the cleric stuff. Just design your sorcerer/oracle to have sneaky-face-bastard all over it.
For a really outside the box solution, turn your animal companion into the rogue.
Sweeper
Male Animal Companion
N small Animal (Dire Rat)
Init +6; Senses Perception +13, Low-Light vision, Scent
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor (mw leather armor), +6 Dex, +2 Natural), +1 size
hp 22
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft. (usually 50 from Longstrider) Climb 20 swim 20
Melee +10 1d4 bite
Ranged ?
Str 11, Dex 22 (includes bonus from human alternat trait: eye for talent), Con 12, Int 3/5, Wis 12, Cha 4
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 18
Feats Alertness, Skill focus: Perception, Weapon finesse
Traits
Skills Perception +13, +21 with scent (4 ranks +1 wis +3 trained +2 alertness +3 skill focus), Stealth +14 (1 rank, +6 dex, +3 trained, +4 size) Disable device + 13 (5 ranks (headband of intellect +2) + 6 dex +2 masterwork tools)
Languages Common
Combat Gear Masterwork leather armor (no ACP, so no proficiency required) Other Gear Thieves' tools, masterwork, saddlebags, 2 mistletoe sprigs, cheese sandwhich.
- I have class abilities more powerful than your entire class! Muahahahahaahahha!
The archeaologist bard archetype in UC gives some bard talents and trapfinding. Is your GM the kind that doesn't tailor to his party? As in throws traps in when no one can deal with them?
Were I in your situation, I would tack a single level of rogue (solely to get the trapfinding class feature) onto a caster and go to town. If you're the de facto skill monkey/face player, consider a bard for the skill points and use your Charisma modifier for Use Magic Device.
I agree, a level or two of rogue, then whatever you want. But you do need to be able to find magical and otherwise traps. The idea of stone shape or dispel magic is nice, but you won't always have that, trapfinding is forever:)
I agree that it's tough being last man out, but you can still make it work for you. Personally, I'd do rogue then bard, a bard in the party is never a hindrance (in combat, I mean), and makes a wonderful skill monkey.
In PF everyone can find/detect magical traps (a couple of spells are an exception to that) but only those with trapfinding can disable them.
I am playing in a four man group, and by process of elimination have been chosen to be the 'rogue' character. I am not terribly fond of the class in general, as I prefer more of a Druid or Wizard type role. What are some good alternatives to playing a core rogue that won't limit my growth at higher levels or overlap other players roles?
P.S. Arcane Trickster is an option I am thinking of, what are the limitations of this PrC?
Play a Beguiler from 3.5 PHB2. I think that's exactly what you are looking for. It even has a fluff reason for telling everyone you're a rogue...
The following classes get trapfinding:
Rogue
Urban Ranger (at 3rd)
Sandman Bard
Archivist Bard (at 2nd)
Detective Bard (at 2nd)So you've got a bit of a choice.
Archaelogist bard as well. That's about it, AFAIK.
My suggestion would be to go for a Ranger. An Urban Ranger can cover all of the rogues roles and will give you both a strong combatant, and a backup divine caster. In some ways the urban ranger makes a better thief then the rogue.
Another good way would be playing a bard. With versatile performance the bard is the true skill monkey. Yes the rogue gets two more skill points but at 6th level the bard has six skills at max but has only put points into 2. Put one point into every knowledge and by 6th level you will have at least +7 on all of them. Since CHA is your prime stat you will be a much better face then a rogue. As for magical traps Dispel Magic is a Bard spell.
Ninja or Archaeologist Bard.
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If I were to make the character myself, I'd play a Human Sandman Bard with high Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device, Combat Expertise and Improved Steal. Take the Prehensile Whip and Vagabond Child (Disable Device) traits and eventually Improved Disarm.
Big skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Perform(Oratory), Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device. After your first rank of Perform, start taking Knowledges instead.
The strategy is to take as much from your opponents in the middle of combat and use it against them. You can also steal a spell from your friend and spam-cast it while your friend only loses the one prepared copy.
There is also the Trapper Ranger archetype from the Ultimate Magic Book.
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That party doesn't NEED a rogue, but another melee character to stop the cleric and the wizard from getting overrun would be helpful. Pure Rogue is pretty weak in Pathfinder, but a rogue/fighter can maintain most of the rogue's skill versatility AND kick some arse in combat.
Here's my suggested feat/class progression for a tripping (again, more versatility), reach-weapon-wielding (Fauchard) fighter/rogue:
Level) Class - Abilities*Feats*Traits BAB
1) F1 - EWP: Fauchard; Combat Expertise +1
2) R1 - +1d6 Sneak Attack, Combat Expertise +1
3) R2 - Evasion, Improved Trip, Power Attack (Combat Trick) +2
4) R3 - +2d6 Sneak Attack +3
5) R4 - Scout's Charge; Combat Reflexes (Combat Trick); Iron Will +4
6) F2 - Combat Reflexes +5
7) F3 - Armor Training 1 (Tumble w/Mithral Full Plate), Greater Trip+6
8) R5 - +3d6 Sneak +6
9) F4 - Weapon Focus?, Lightning Reflexes +7
10) F5 - Weapon training 1 +8
11) R6 - TALENT; FEAT +9
12) R7 +4d6 Sneak +10
Trait: Heirloom Weapon (Fauchard), focusing on the +2 Trait bonus to trips
This is a STR-focused rogue build: Power attack and sneak attack damage with a 2 handed weapon for very good damage potential. Half-Elf works great for the 2nd favored class (all favored bonuses to HP!) - and the Skill Focus bonus feat works well on Acrobatics, allowing you to move around the battlefield at will. Trip adds a lot of extra versatility. Trip with the reach weapon (Fauchard) gives you an extra layer of defense, which helps because your AC is going to be good, but not great.
Suggested stats (20 pt buy):
18 STR, 14 DEX, 1 CON, 13 INT (for trip), 10 WIS, 10 CHA
If you don't mind dumping CHA or WIS, you can kick the INT up to 14 for the extra skill points. All stat bumps go to STR.
I second playing one of the bard archetypes if you want spells, go with the trapper ranger otherwise.
Unlike most here, I would suggest you consider squeezing in two more rouge levels than necessary,
Why?
I would suggest vivisectionist with 1 level of rogue. Heres an example 11th level build.
Vivsectionist and Internal alchemist archetypes
Human
10 alchemist/ 1 rogue
Abilities 20 point buy
Str 15+2 racial+2 enchantment+1 levels=20
dex 14+2=16
con14+2=16
wis12
Int 13+1 levels+4 magic=18
ch8
(alternatively may dump str focus on dex and use weapon finesse)
Feats:
1st Brew Potion , Feral Mutagen , Toughness
3rd Preserve organs
5th Improved Initiative
7th Tumor familiar (hedgehog)
9th Vestigial arm
11th Mummification
(13th Power attack
15th Preserve organs
17th Preserve organs
19th Extra arm)
Items: 82k
Chain Mail +3 9k
Belt of str/dex/con+2. 16k
natural armor +1 2K,
Ring of deflection +2 8k
ring of counter spells (dispel magic) 4k
Cloak of Resistance +3 saves 9k
Mithral buckler+1 2k
Headband of Intelligence+4 16k
Hewards handy haversack 2,5 k
Potion of greater Magical fang+1 0,75 k
Potion of barkskin+1 0,3 k
Nap stack (potion) 0,3k
Life bubble (potion) 0,75
Mace+1 2k
Ion stone 5k (+1 insight to attack)
wand of cure light wounds 0,75 k
Buckler +2 4k
Gold on poisons Xk
79,35 k spent
Perception
Initiative:+7 Perception +15
Defense:
Hit points:11d8 +33+11+11=108
Ac: 10+4 chainmail+ 1shield+ 6enchantment+3 dexterity+ 2 deflection+1 natural armor+1 shield+=27
30 with potion of barkskin, 32 with feral mutagen
Uncanny dodge, 25% to ignore critical or precision damage
Dies at -26 hp.
Saves:
---------------- Total--- Base---- Ability- Magic--- Feat-----Other
Fort------------13-------7------- 3------- 3
Reflex----------13-------7-------3-------3
Will------------9-------3-------1-------3-----------------2familiar
Immune to poison,disease, cold, subdual damage, sleep and paralysis.
Attack
Full attack:
Mace: +13/+8 1d8+9
Mutagen (str)+ magical fang potion: 2 claws +18 (1d6+10) bite +18 (1d8+10)
Sneak attack +10d6 plus 2 strength damage
Heroism+2 attack/damage
Enlarged +2 damage 10 reach
cannot accidentally poison himself when applying poison to a weapon
Special:
Mutagen for 110 minutes,+4 alchemical +2 natural armor, -2 penalty
Discoveries:
2nd Infusion
4th Lingering spirit
6th Enchance potion
8th Infuse mutagen
10th Crippling strike (rogue talent)
(12th Greater Mutagen
14th Extend potion
16th Grand Mutagen
18th Elixir of life
20th Vestigial tween, Iron will ,Awesome Mutagen)
Extracts:
4th level Freedom of Movement, Air walk
3rd level 5 Amplify elixir ( freedom of movement, heroism, greater magical fang, barkskin), heroism,(open)*2
2nd level 6 Invisibility, See invisibility, alchemical allocation*3 (usually used withfreedom of movement, heroism, greater magical fang, barkskin),(open)
1st level 7 Enlarge person, shield, true strike,(open)*3,
Skills:
114 points
-----------------Total---Ranks---Ability- Magic--- Favored- other
Perception-------19------11------ 1----------------3-------+4
Stealth----------17------11------ 3----------------3
Alchemy----------28------11------ 3----------------3-------+11
Acrobatics-------17------11------ 3----------------3
Disable device---17------11------ 3----------------3
UMD------------- 13------11------(-1)--------------3
Sense Motive---- 19------ 11------ 1----------------3------+4
Appraise-------- 7------- 1-------3-----------------3
Arcana---------- 7------- 1-------3-----------------3
Nature---------- 16------ 11------ 2-----------------3
Dungeon----------7-------1------- 3-----------------3
Local------------7-------1------- 3-----------------3
Fly--------------18------11------ 3-----------------3
Spellcraft-------17------11------ 3-----------------3
Disguise ---------3-------1-------(-1)--------------3
Bluff------------3-------1-------(-1)--------------3
Survival---------5-------1------- 1-----------------3
Linguistics------7-------1------- 3-----------------3
Sleight of H-----7-------1-------3-----------------3
6 unspent
Use Nature as Heal.
May disable magical traps
Alertness from tumor familiar
Can hold breath for 16 minutes or 16 hours if he prepares himself with a full round action.
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I will probably end up being face/skill monkey/trapfinder.
Choices are from PF core(APG/UM/UC when it releases).
Since you say you normally like to be a caster and in this party you will probably end up being face/skill monkey/trapfinder, it sounds like some variety of bard would be PERFECT for you.
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There is also the Trapper Ranger archetype from the Ultimate Magic Book.
I second the Trapper Archetype Ranger.
It can do most of the things a rogue could do, especially when it comes to traps. Also you can go range, meaning you add more damage in fights and no one else will fight with you over the bows and crossbows.
You also get a pet and with the Boon Companion feat, will be equal in level with you, giving you another frontliner.
Plus, having a character with good survival skill for tracking people is quite important in some adventures.
Just remember that you can't cast spells, and so can't use wands of CLW... etc. So make a point to keep your healer alive, cos you can't heal via magic.
Trapper doesn't look worth losing ranger spellcasting. I'd stick with urban ranger.It's a better trade than it looks. Not only is it about setting traps but you get the trapfinding and disabling ability of a rogue as well.
The traps are a little bit weak though, with saves that are quite easy to overcome, maybe I am missing something.. the archetype is certainly flavorful. I'll prolly fix it up a bit for use in my games.
The traps are a little bit weak though, with saves that are quite easy to overcome, maybe I am missing something.. the archetype is certainly flavorful. I'll prolly fix it up a bit for use in my games.Trapper doesn't look worth losing ranger spellcasting. I'd stick with urban ranger.It's a better trade than it looks. Not only is it about setting traps but you get the trapfinding and disabling ability of a rogue as well.
10+1/2 level+Wis bonus, like a spell of the highest level you can cast. And not all of them allow saves.
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Forget the Rogue, it's a redundant class - the only reason people ever claim a Rogue is needed is so that the unloved class still gets played sometimes.
Go with Urban Ranger if you want trapsense and roguish skills but also want to kick butt in combat.
Or go Bard with the Archtype that gains Trapsense if you need to be the party face as well as all roguish skills whilst being able to inspire the team, get some very useful spells and be handy in combat too.
Or go Ninja to be Roguish and the party face and say 'traps? No one cares about them anyway'
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Furthermore, when it comes to traps, there are no/little replacements for rogues. As far as I know (and I hope UM or UC doesn't change this), the rogues is the only class that has access to Trapfinding.
unless you plan to run around a dungeon taking 10 on you perception check, you are not going to have a lot of use from your Trapfinding ihmo.
That already changed in the APG. The Urban Ranger gets full Trapfinding, and a number of Bard archetypes can disable magical traps.
you have 2 magic blasters, play a witch, lower saving throws.
Have a decent charisma, some social spells and you can be a party face aswell and be a very good candidate for leadership if allowed.
And as other have said, if you need be more rogueish, alchemist and bard are good too.
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Sorry, should have been trapspotting.That already changed in the APG. The Urban Ranger gets full Trapfinding, and a number of Bard archetypes can disable magical traps.Furthermore, when it comes to traps, there are no/little replacements for rogues. As far as I know (and I hope UM or UC doesn't change this), the rogues is the only class that has access to Trapfinding.
unless you plan to run around a dungeon taking 10 on you perception check, you are not going to have a lot of use from your Trapfinding ihmo.
Trapspotting is far from enough to justify being a Rogue. Even in a game which is trap heavy (so presumably a Homebrew game)
Esentially it speeds up the process - instead of saying 'I'm checking for traps' in every room and corridor it is done automatically. It is convenient and helps smooth the gameplay but far from essential. In fact many a Rogue won't even take that talent (at least not early in their career as they are busy getting combat orientated Talents to try make up for their lack of ability). I admit in some extreme circumstances it could be a deal breaker, but hardly common enough to make you play a Rogue for a campaignEveryone can find traps, so to try and make the Rogue a worthwhile companion not only does your campaign need to be custom made with heavy traps, it must also have lots of Magic traps...seems like the DM is kindly designing the campaign for the sake of the Rogue.
Add the fact that the Ranger and Bard can still do the job of finding Magic traps too by taking an Archtype and the only thing seperating them is the convenience of Trapspotting (which Rogues lived without in 3.5 easily enough)
So, if the campaign is truly to be Trap Heavy, then you will serve the team best as a Ranger or Bard - assuming it is Magic trap heavy, if it is just traps in general then being a Ninja or a class without Trapfinding will do, though on the off chance there are a few magic traps I would prefer to have someone with Trapfinding (even though an Unseen Servant can be your Trap detector in a number of situations)