Which do you guys prefer? I'm currently running my game with the GMgen portion of PCgen (makes initiative a cakewalk), the character generator is very good IMHO as well, and I'm currently trying out herolab, and I was wondering what you folks think of each program...
Holt
I love using Hero Lab.
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I love using Hero Lab.
Ok... Any reasons, or it's just the one you tried first? I've tried the demo of herolab, but the price tag (30 for the program, 10 for the apg, 10 for ultimate magic, 10 for ultimate combat and like 40 dollars for all the splats...) like 100 dollars all told make me feel like I'm buying the books all over again, vs pcgens price tag of free or the same things... with a little added patience as its all volunteer. By the looks of the demo though you get full functionality from the feats and spells in herolab vs cliff's note versions in pcgen.
Holt
p.s. oh and the full support of PFS in the Herolab program is awesomesauce.
I love using Hero Lab.Ok... Any reasons, or it's just the one you tried first? I've tried the demo of herolab, but the price tag (30 for the program, 10 for the apg, 10 for ultimate magic, 10 for ultimate combat and like 40 dollars for all the splats...) like 100 dollars all told make me feel like I'm buying the books all over again, vs pcgens price tag of free or the same things... with a little added patience as its all volunteer. By the looks of the demo though you get full functionality from the feats and spells in herolab vs cliff's note versions in pcgen.
Holt
p.s. oh and the full support of PFS in the Herolab program is awesomesauce.
Hero Lab. Hands down.
It's the officially supported product, which is nice (not essential, but nice). The interface is intuitive and allows me to create detailed NPCs (which I love to have rather than abbreviated versions) in no time.
As for the price tag, buy it over time. Nothing says you have to buy everything at once any more than you must buy every rulebook all at once.
I don't consider it buying the books again. I'm buying a time-saving tool. (I also like having a PDF version of a physical book b/c when I'm brainstorming while watching TV, I don't have to bring my library anymore. -- Same concept/benefit.)
I also don't see it as cost-prohibitive. That initial $30 buys you a lot. Also, when I buy a new video-game, I'm shelling out $50-$60 a pop. Sometimes, that's a game with 40+ hours of content/play time, but typically, it's 8-10. In comparison, my Hero Lab will get used for the entire life that I'm playing Pathfinder -- and that's already measured in years, not just hours.
Hero-lab
you get what you pay for, there pretty awesome with the speed they get updates out for new products. and even when they can't get it all out they release as much as they've got done.
Hero-lab also includes play tests into its downloadable
I prefer Herolab, as I tend to use the editor quite a bit. The PCgen editor is not as easy to use. Herolab can also be used to GM with, if you place all of the NPCs into a single portfolio. You can even add all the PCs into the same portfolio and roll initiative and track damage, spell use. A little difficult on a smaller screen, but on a 19"+ you should be able to see everything.
They pay attention to bug posts and update the program with fixes regularly. The programmer is active on their forums. The tool is updated very quickly when new books come out. It is very user friendly considering how complex the rule system is.
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... I was wondering what you folks think of each program...
Hero Lab has become my go-to tool for managing my players' character and for constructing NPCs. It runs quickly and smoothly. The interface is nice. Bugs are quickly squashed and updates come often (but not too often). The base package comes with lots of goodies, but the add-on packages are real timesavers and worth every penny. The editor is relatively easy to use (with a small learning curve) and custom content is easily distributed to players. Also, it supports multiple game systems (I also have licenses for Savage Worlds and Mutants & Masterminds 3e). Lastly, it's officially sanctioned by Paizo, which means that all the deities and other IP are already in there.
PCGen, in my experience from a couple years ago, clunky (java-based) with a slow interface. It was difficult to wrangle at times and the editor left me scratching my head more often than not. Also, content is slow to get added.
-Skeld
I prefer HeroLab...and so does my group.
I actually prefer PC Gen (although I use Combat Manager for Initiative tracking, etc.), though in part it's a philosophical thing as I dislike Hero Lab's DRM philosophy and decided I no longer wish to support the product (the license activation in my personal experience is a PITA. YMMV). That's my personal decision and there are threads you can search for if you wish to see more information about it and arguments on all sides; I have no interest in starting an argument about DRM vs. piracy, etc. and will not discuss it further here, as past experience shows trying to do so will end in tears.
I have used both programs, with the caveat that I have used Hero Lab primarily for Mutants and Masterminds (though I've checked out the Pathfinder generator in demo mode since I won't shell out the additional $20 to unlock Pathfinder, since I unlocked M&M on purchase).
General thoughts:
PC Gen
- Versatile generator can allow you to create any character or monster, including hit-die increased, templated, classed monster, etc.
- Can customize your own datasets (and improvements in the LST editors are coming down the line)
- Can output your character sheet in a number of styles and statblocks
- It's free
- Staff are slow to update but friendly and responsive
- Cross platform support (but this comes with the downside that it's Java-based for this reason and can be slow, although you can play with your memory settings to mitigate this)
- GUI is clunky, although the staff are working on improvements for future updates. However, you can easily adjust panels of information per page, to see the information you want to see and hide the stuff you don't.
- Also have free access to ample datasets of various other d20 systems, e.g., 3.5 and d20 Modern and Spycraft.
Hero Lab
- Also very versatile and very customizable re: creating characters, monsters, adding templates, etc.
- Also customizable datasets.
- Limited customization of character sheet output (although I know they were working on improving that and may have done)
- Updates are fast.
- ... I have not been impressed with LoneWolf Labs representatives' communication skills when I have seen them present themselves in public forums. YMMV.
- Online activation required the first time you use and whenever you want to update the product; need to reactivate license if you transfer to new computer, and are limited to one computer with an active license (IIRC).
- PC only
- GUI runs fast and is very intuitive, although I don't like how the panels display across the screen, and I don't like that you are limited in how you can adjust your display and what you see at a time. CAVEAT: I've not used Hero Lab in awhile and they may have changed this since the last time I used it. My favorite part about the program is that it can tell you if you've made an illegal purchase or gone overboard on something (I don't know how that works for Pathfinder, but it's great for Mutants and Masterminds as it carefully tracks your point buy purchases in that way).
- You only get access to 1 game system for your $30 purchase. Unlocking different game systems costs $20 PER game system, and splat material also costs $10-20 per data set. This for my personal lifestyle and budgeting is prohibitively expensive (and while you can program in your own datasets, I do not have time to do it on my own, so I'd rather get it for free from the folks at PC Gen). YMMV.
Ultimately, because what I need is an accessible, on any computer I need, character and monster generator, and because I cannot afford accessing the Pathfinder materials on Hero Lab and disagree with some of their business choices, I go with PC Gen and I am very happy with my decision---I've used it for many years and will continue to do so. I think either way you will have a good program in your hands, and despite my personal objections, Hero Lab is a well designed program. Largely it's up to you.
Which do you guys prefer? I'm currently running my game with the GMgen portion of PCgen (makes initiative a cakewalk), the character generator is very good IMHO as well, and I'm currently trying out herolab, and I was wondering what you folks think of each program...
Holt
I am like most of the others and voting for Hero Lab. I mainly play Pathfinder online with my friends and Hero Lab works really well with D20Pro.
On a side note, I also play with warhammer fantasy miniatures (my wife calls them Dollies) and I like the Army Builder software also designed by Lone Wolf that makes it quick and easy for me to design my armies.
Picked up Herolab from my LGS a few years ago to support my 3.5 and M&M games and havent looked back since. If you want quality and a relatively easy to use interface? Hero lab is it.
PC Gen is alright I've used it a couple of times in a pinch but only because it's java based and can run natively on my Macs. But here's the thing I have parallels and Windows Xp on installed on my MacPro for the most part so that I can run HeroLab. I have Parallels and Windows 7 installed on my MacPro for the most part so that I can run, yep, HeroLab.
HeroLab will be coming out with a OS X native version hopefully by the end of the year. Hopefully it will be no problem to move the liscence over to my macs so that I can lose the Windows installs on both of those computers and get that space back. :-)
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Cheap ass mo-fo checking in and I am PCgen all the way. Herolab is nice but I dont think its worth the money. I can wait for PCgen to release their updates. I also can handle the interface my web designer friends cant. There is no denying though Herolab is popular as hell. It seems like everyone and his kid sister has it and for once in my life I dont have to be a cool kid. Do the demo though and see for yourself.
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Cheap ass mo-fo checking in and I am PCgen all the way. Herolab is nice but I dont think its worth the money.
I never tend to see people who've actually bought it all say that- what I do hear them saying before they buy it is similar 'oh its probably not worth the money' though.
Agreed. If your in doubt try the demo out.
I don't intend to argue with DeathQuaker's opinion, but I would like to point out that you can install HeroLab on two computers with a single license.
Also, they are saying that a Mac version is imminent, but as of right now, she is right: it's PC only.
Also, they are saying that a Mac version is imminent, but as of right now, she is right: it's PC only.
Not "PC only", it's Windows only. There is a difference, I use a PC, but I don't use Windows.
Disclosure: I am a developer on the PCGen project.
I also use Hero Lab. Other posters are correct - it can get pricey when all Pathfinder modules are added, but I can get away with just having the Core + Advanced Player Guide. Your mileage may vary. I don't have a problem with paying for a well-designed program that does exactly what I need it to do and Hero Lab is it. I can't tell you how many times I create a character on paper, then do the same in Hero Lab and realise I made a mistake on my Base Attack Bonus or I calculated my saves incorrectly, but these mistakes were caught by Hero Lab.
But +1 for everybody who is saying try out the demo. That's what demos are for and you can judge for yourself if it is worth it.
As I said before, I use Herolab, but as a caveat, I have found that there are some things Herolab calculates incorrectly. I recently created a mid-level character, purchased a stock darkwood buckler, and Herolab gave it a +2 shield bonus (no, I had no shield enhancement feats either). Deleted the buckler, added it again, and it was +1. Just saying, check and doublecheck, sometimes even the best program (or person) can have a sudden Duh! moment
+1 Hero Lab. I have been using hero Lab since the 3.5 days. It is a great application.
That being said... one of the other player in my group does not like it. I do not know all the reasons but she was clear that she really hates that you can not print-off the only the memorized spell of a cleric spell list.
Therefore, I would have to say the application is not for everyone.
I also think you should get Core Book + Advanced Player Guide and see if you like the application.
As someone running the game I adore HeroLab. Mostly because the ability to add custom stuff is relatively easy (even for a programming dunce like myself). Plus the guys who lurk on their Pathfinder forum are general nice about answering questions, both difficult and plainly obvious.
But take the demo out for a spin. Don't think you can save anything but give their editor a whirl too.
Also, they are saying that a Mac version is imminent, but as of right now, she is right: it's PC only.Not "PC only", it's Windows only. There is a difference, I use a PC, but I don't use Windows.
Disclosure: I am a developer on the PCGen project.
Sorry; misspoke/typed. "Microsoft Windows only." :)
I've used both PCGen and Herolab , and for me it's a close call, with Hero Lab starting to edge out PCGen. I'm not factoring cost here. PCGen is free, Hero Lab isn't. I don't know how much that impacts you.
Where PCGen really shines for me is in the output. Hero Lab is just beginning customized output, any once it is mature it will likely be the end of my PCGen use, but for now, Hero Lab output is still hideous. At this stage, Hero Lab desperately needs good documentation on what items are available to print to character sheets (as well as expanding that list).
If you are not running a relatively vanilla game, Hero Lab customization is pretty arcane, I find messing around with PCGen's .lst files much simpler. I *do* run a relatively vanilla game, and I don't generally use a lot of third-party stuff, so that issue is less important to me than it may be to others.
If you *are* running a relatively vanilla game (Paizo products only), then the data available for Hero Lab is great. Nearly everything I'll ever need is in available, and there are sufficient options for ad hoc customizations that I haven't felt limited in any way.
I'm a big fan of PCGen, and for the same two reasons everyone else who likes it has been saying:
a) Output sheets. They're nice, and customizable.
b) Easily-edited datasets. This came in very handy, for example, when I needed to make a "reincarnated half-elf" race for one of my players recently. Also, I've been able to add my own templates for things, some custom magic items and powers, etc.
Having said that, full disclosure, I've had to use my ability to edit the lists to fix a few data errors in the datasets along the way (for instance, there was a time when the extra rage feat didn't actually give you access to another power - though that's also been fixed in the official version) -- but I know that HeroLab's not without its own bugs - and I kinda prefer the ability to self-fix rather than wait.
[Of course, I really do wish there was a tool to merge in new datasets with old ones to make sure corrections or additions don't get lost in upgrades]
The only things I dislike (once you get past the learning curve) is how cursedly slow it runs (because it's java) -- and the fact that characters made in an older version may not be fully compatible with a new one (this was an issue when the APG dataset was released) -- I really wish that when they do this they'd write a conversion utility - I've ended up having to rebuild the characters from level 1 instead.
But even with those two things, I still highly recommend it.... But that's me -- as others have said, try them out - the HeroLab demo is free, as is PCGen.
Either work on iPad?
I have done a lot of different character management systems in my days, and I must say, just learning how to use Numbers on iPad, I'm done with chargenerators unless I'm GMing. I'll just stick the info I need to know on Numbers for iPad and game light. It's very powerful.
HeroLab. Has added to our enjoyment of the game as an entire group.
I have used and own both PCGen and Hero Lab. The comments and suggestions that other people have made on both sides of the issue are very true.
I have a long history with PCGen and find it "easier" to use. I put that in quotes because of the steep learning curve that PCGen has. I really like the custom output sheets that PCGen provides or allows me to create. I really really like custom data that I can create. That all said it wasn't easy to learn to do that and it wasn't fast. Data sets are community created so they are slow at best and have some omissions or errors at best. Most redeeming value is that it's free! Second most redeeming value is custom sheets and data.
Hero Lab I have less experience with, but datasets are quickly created and seem to be fairly accurate (within normal reasonable limits... bugs always creep in). I looked into custom content and was surprised that it was as difficult as it is. I really looked into custom output sheets and was very bummed that it was that hard.
My needs and POV:
I could care less what's "offical" unless it means that there will be less content for one program over another. I really dig the custom output sheets and the fact that I can create custom content if I really want it.
Kizan
Cheap ass mo-fo checking in and I am PCgen all the way. Herolab is nice but I dont think its worth the money.I never tend to see people who've actually bought it all say that- what I do hear them saying before they buy it is similar 'oh its probably not worth the money' though.
Then you didn't see my post not far above yours, because I bought Hero Lab, and I don't think it's worth the money. Not because it's not a good program, but because of the way they nickel and dime you for datasets and license access. Again, in my personal opinion.
I only point this out to ask you to please speak for yourself and not others. Thank you.
As you note, anyone can download the demo and see for themselves how it works anyway, and determine what it's worth to them.
I don't intend to argue with DeathQuaker's opinion, but I would like to point out that you can install HeroLab on two computers with a single license.
Whoops! Thanks for the correction. And that's good to know!
One free license with the purchase of HeroLab, a third for only $10. And the base package included Pathfinder Society organized play mode, the NPCs from the Gamemastery Guide, all of the AP support content, and toggles for common house rules (no coin weight, no common language, etc etc).
HL does have customizable output now, but I don't know how to do it. It is admittedly not easy, but the developers have taken the attitude that it's now possible to do, and the community has competant people that can and will provide a variety of custom outputs that can be copied and used by others.
And I agree with the poster above, I wouldn't try making an M&M character without it, honestly.
Hero Lab is great. Sure, it has some flaws, but any software will have it flaws. From what I've seen since getting Hero Lab, the lone wolf development team has done a very good job of addressing bugs and pushing out new content.
I've tried PCGen as well and it just wasn't as intuitive as Hero Lab.
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I can't believe how many people throw their money at Hero Lab. I've looked into it several times and found it to be no better than PCgen (I found a bug in the very first character I tried to make with the free trial). And when I added up what it would cost to get me up and going with all the resources I already can use in PCgen for free, it becomes prohibitively expensive - as much as I spent for the books in the first place. No thank you.
Spellbooks in particular are much nicer in PCGen as well - it'll print out lists of all your spells with short description, appropriate DC, range, duration, and any required dice rolls. All of the spellcasters at my table that created their character in HeroLab have asked me to recreate it in PCgen just to print out the spellbook for them.
The GUI isn't really as bad as people make it out to be, it just gives you so many options that people get overwhelmed. Slow down, pay attention to what you're looking at and it's a great tool.
And when I added up what it would cost to get me up and going with all the resources I already can use in PCgen for free, it becomes prohibitively expensive - as much as I spent for the books in the first place. No thank you.
I for one would love to see the math on this one.
I use PCGen, but I cannot really say anything about HeroLab, good or bad. They obviously have their supporters, many on this thread.
I like the fact that I can participate in the community at PCGen and help make the application better. The transparency in how they work and the fact that they are volunteer-run are big positives for me.
And, for those that are curious, major improvements have been made already in the alpha code for the next release. Having the ability to download the new code and try it out and see that they aren't just blowing smoke about the work they've done makes the wait easier. The fact that their "alpha" code is more solid than some closed-source products I've paid for says a lot for the quality of their work, too.
Sorry if I ramble - I've deleted more comments here than I've kept. I like PCGen. It works well and I've felt no need to purchase a product to do what PCGen does.
Main Group for general questions.
Experimental usually for alpha/beta stuff, including Pathfinder currently.
List File Help. Coding personal datasets.
List File Class that contains posts on how to code data sets. This information is also contained in the help files once the program is started.
For your question, try the main group first. Either myself or one of the other Moderators will approve the message(s).
-- david
Papa.DRB
Group Moderator for PCGen (except List File Class), Data Monkey and Admin Monkey.
Where is the best place of finding that community. Ive been having the devil of a time lately. I can create a custom race, and feat, save them and they're gone the next time I boot the program.
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And when I added up what it would cost to get me up and going with all the resources I already can use in PCgen for free, it becomes prohibitively expensive - as much as I spent for the books in the first place. No thank you.I for one would love to see the math on this one.
Have you even looked at their pricing model?
Pathrinder RPG (Core rulebook)
PDF: $9.99 Hero Lab: $29.99
Advanced Player's Guide:
PDF: $9.99 Hero Lab: $9.99
Bestiary 1
PDF: $9.99 Hero Lab: $14.99
This is what I consider the minimum required to get started as a GM. Total cost for the PDFs? $29.97. Total cost for Hero Lab? $54.97. Total cost for the same datasets in PCgen? $0.00.
Add all the sources that are availabe in PCgen such as the Adventure Paths that you can't even buy for Hero Lab.
I really wanted to like Hero Lab. I was gonna give it a try. I was dissapointed when I found out that you had to purchase each ruleset separately, but figured it was ok that the base price at least includes one ruleset. Great, Pathfinder it is. But then to discover it only gives you the Core Rulebook and they nickel and dime you for the rest of the sources until you spend over $100 just for one ruleset?
No way.
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I really wanted to like Hero Lab. I was gonna give it a try. I was dissapointed when I found out that you had to purchase each ruleset separately, but figured it was ok that the base price at least includes one ruleset. Great, Pathfinder it is. But then to discover it only gives you the Core Rulebook and they nickel and dime you for the rest of the sources until you spend over $100 just for one ruleset?
In his defense, you did say "books" in your original comments, even though you've priced out the PDFs. That does make a difference.
Also, all the AP issues and some of the other Pathfinder books (those that are light in rules content) are included in the core package.
This is a good page for finding out what any individual package contains. Plus, there is the pricing information (some data packages are bundled for a lower price).
-Skeld
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Also, all the AP issues and some of the other Pathfinder books (those that are light in rules content) are included in the core package.
Ah, thanks for the correction. So that one's a wash.
As for books/pdfs, to me it doesn't really matter. Once you break $100 just to get a single ruleset, which can be multiplied if I want to go back and play with my group that's still on 3.5, it's just too much. If I wanted to spend that much on a single piece of software I'd go buy something from Microsoft.
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Hero Lab isn't bad for trying out concepts or using keyword searches for things but its crap for its accuracy. Its math is ok as far as I can tell but theirs stuff from the APG that's still has the "will be added later" or doesn't get applied unless you go into the Adjust tab and do it your self. I will use a character sheet from hero lab ONLY after I can double check everything against the books.
Here's a better idea than PC Gen or Lone Wolf's Hero Lab. Encourage Paizo Publishing to step up to the plate and create it's own official stat block generator (which it could sell on it's site)!
Here's a better idea than PC Gen or Lone Wolf's Hero Lab. Encourage Paizo Publishing to step up to the plate and create it's own official stat block generator (which it could sell on it's site)!
Hero Lab is Paizo's official stat block generator, at least for now.
Just over a month ago, Hero Lab became the official character management software tool for the Pathfinder RPG.