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Hi. I'm playing a 15th level wizard in a campaign. Our big baddie so far is a paladin a few levels above us. I find it difficult to do anything useful to the bugger because of his really high saving throws. So, I ask the more experienced casters out there, what are some good spells to have on the list if you are planning on fighting a paladin?
Cheers
Attack his vision: Darkness, invisibility, smoke, fog... whatever. Anything to get concealment.
have you not discovered the myriad of spells without saves ?
Reverse Gravity = floating paladin , pepper with arrows ;) note the ref save onlies applies if there is somthing within reach to grab on to. so if you can this with paly is in middle of stone floor he gets no save.
Waves of exhaustion, makes creatures exhausted no save, -6STR and 1/2 speed is a very nice debuff no save.
Power Word Blind once the paly is under 200HP which shouldn't be too hard again no save and paly is blind making any of his attacks 50% miss chance.
Hellfire Ray with some metamagic offers some ok damage dealing with no save.
Enervation + quicken metamagic rod = 1d4 negative level every round plus you can cast something else. negative levels are quite nasty when they begin to stack up and again NO SAVE.
really there are alot of spells that you can use just spend some time looking through your spell list at spells that either don't offer saves or that still inflict something nasty even with a save. A Paladin is nothing special, Reflex will be his worst save unless GM has bumped it artificially.
Attack his vision: Darkness, invisibility, smoke, fog... whatever. Anything to get concealment.Hi. I'm playing a 15th level wizard in a campaign. Our big baddie so far is a paladin a few levels above us. I find it difficult to do anything useful to the bugger because of his really high saving throws. So, I ask the more experienced casters out there, what are some good spells to have on the list if you are planning on fighting a paladin?
Cheers
15th lvl wizard spell of choice vs vision is power word blind <200HP no save :)
reverse gravity would be awesome except that his race has wings. I think power word blind is a good idea. Mage sword too, because it just seems badass.
Cheers!
oh its a flying race you should have said.
prismatic wall
wall of force
wall of iron
etc etc
you can create walls facing any direction including up/down ie. with a wall of force you can create an artificial ceiling that you can hide under forcing them to fight you on the ground or multipl walls up in the air to make flying hazardous without near perfect maneuverability.
if he's got lackies, walls can split fights making it easier to kill them piece meal.
When in doubt FIREBALL! Can't go wrong with a classic. Saving throws be damned.
Heh sounds nice but
10d6 save for half and the paly will save = 17.5dmg avg pretty meheven metamagic'd like crazy you won't get above 40-50dmg on avg.
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Hi. I'm playing a 15th level wizard in a campaign. Our big baddie so far is a paladin a few levels above us. I find it difficult to do anything useful to the bugger because of his really high saving throws. So, I ask the more experienced casters out there, what are some good spells to have on the list if you are planning on fighting a paladin?
Cheers
Touch attack (especially ranged) is your friend. Touch attack spells as a rule don't call for saves (it's an either/or kind of thing) and bypass armor, which tends to be the Paladin's main AC bonus. DEX is NOT a Paladin's strong point. Even if he has a high dex, it's pretty much wiped out by the full plate.
Scorching Ray just can't be beat. No save, 12d6 dmg. Granted, that's only 36 pts of damage on average. BUT, it's second level, so a 15th level wizard can cast it pretty much all day long, and there's no save.
Stormbolts from the APG is another one you may want to look into, especially if he has minions. Granted, it allows a Fort save for half, but that's still going to be 40 pts on average. It hits everyone you want, no one you don't, and anyone who fails the save is stunned. But you're casting an 8th level spell to do about the same dmg to him as Scorching Ray, a 2nd level spell.
Keep in mind that Paladin's have pretty good Will and Fort saves, but fall down when it comes to REFLEX. Again, especially if he's wearing the classic shiny metal full plate. Area of effect spells are your friend. Your Lightning Bolts and your Fireballs.
Are you Evil? If you're fighting a Paladin, there's a good chance of that. Might I suggest Hellfire Ray from Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness? Almost 50 pts of dmg, no save.
There's a 50/50 chance that Prismatic Spray will fall flat against his Fort and Will saves, but rolling a 3 could shorten the battle by three rounds easy.
If it seems like I'm listing a lot of direct damage spells... it's because that's what works in this situation. Your charms are worthless, and your condition causing spells will be a joke. Let the other party members keep shiny pants away from you, and you take the burden of dealing damage.
However, if you are intent on being a more support role character, might I suggest Waves of Exhaustion or Waves of Fatigue, both of which are area of effect and do not allow for a save. This would be a big aid to the rest of the party if you weaken him.
Try using Forceful Hand to shove him into a Hungry Pit, The Forceful Hand has a pretty badass CMB vs. a guy with no dex, and the Pit is, again, a Reflex save. EDIT: He flies? Ok, nevermind this one. I leave it up here because it just sounded wicked cool.
Or... if you're just into ruining the GM's fun, Geas offers no save. Tell him to go strangle kittens while you loot the place...
Ok, spent way too much time on this for now. Hope it helps...
Geas sounds fun but GM will bring back the Geas creature at a later date with some serious fury if you do ;)
also geas won't let you kill the creature if you attack a geased creature it will defend itself because its reasonable that defending itself is required if it is to complete the task its been given
either way you still have to deal with the creature at some point.
plus the trick only works once on GM's they'll have lackeis ready with spell to break the geas if you throw it on the BBEG again. Or they'll just give the BBEG contingency spells from some source or spell absorbing/reflecting magic items to ruin your day.
heh its a can o worm best left shut ;)
If your good with hitting Touch AC, then Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray. 108 damage if all rays hit, no save.
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Geas sounds fun but GM will bring back the Geas creature at a later date with some serious fury if you do ;)
also geas won't let you kill the creature if you attack a geased creature it will defend itself because its reasonable that defending itself is required if it is to complete the task its been given
either way you still have to deal with the creature at some point.
plus the trick only works once on GM's they'll have lackeis ready with spell to break the geas if you throw it on the BBEG again. Or they'll just give the BBEG contingency spells from some source or spell absorbing/reflecting magic items to ruin your day.
heh its a can o worm best left shut ;)
Bah! He's a paladin! He'll be far too busy saving his pennies to resurrect those poor kitties to come after him!
WON'T YOU THINK OF THE KITTIES?!?
Actually if the BBEG is a paladin
find a baby bring it to the fight, demand his surrender or you'll start cutting off pieces of the baby.
he's lawful good he lives to protect the innocent ;)
better yet bag o babies :P
Geas sounds fun but GM will bring back the Geas creature at a later date with some serious fury if you do ;)
also geas won't let you kill the creature if you attack a geased creature it will defend itself because its reasonable that defending itself is required if it is to complete the task its been given
either way you still have to deal with the creature at some point.
plus the trick only works once on GM's they'll have lackeis ready with spell to break the geas if you throw it on the BBEG again. Or they'll just give the BBEG contingency spells from some source or spell absorbing/reflecting magic items to ruin your day.
heh its a can o worm best left shut ;)
Bah! He's a paladin! He'll be far too busy saving his pennies to resurrect those poor kitties to come after him!
WON'T YOU THINK OF THE KITTIES?!?
meh not really he can just use an atonment spell and bypass the fuss. besides kittens aren't innocent they're just animals he's not a druid ;)
sure he might feel bad but it wouldn't effect his status as a paladin
better yet bag o babies :PMore fun than a sack o kittens!
indeed and then he really would need to atone if he let one die ;)
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Geas sounds fun but GM will bring back the Geas creature at a later date with some serious fury if you do ;)
also geas won't let you kill the creature if you attack a geased creature it will defend itself because its reasonable that defending itself is required if it is to complete the task its been given
either way you still have to deal with the creature at some point.
plus the trick only works once on GM's they'll have lackeis ready with spell to break the geas if you throw it on the BBEG again. Or they'll just give the BBEG contingency spells from some source or spell absorbing/reflecting magic items to ruin your day.
heh its a can o worm best left shut ;)
Bah! He's a paladin! He'll be far too busy saving his pennies to resurrect those poor kitties to come after him!
WON'T YOU THINK OF THE KITTIES?!?
meh not really he can just use an atonment spell and bypass the fuss. besides kittens aren't innocent they're just animals he's not a druid ;)
sure he might feel bad but it wouldn't effect his status as a paladin
EDIT: original response had lost its sense of humor. It was a bigger buzzkill than Buzz Killington...
So yes... Babies, babies are excellent leverage...
find a baby bring it to the fight, demand his surrender or you'll start cutting off pieces of the baby.
Probably won't work. He knows you're evil - you threaten babies - and thus will do his level best to obliterate you.
It's safe to assume that this baby is doomed, anyway. Better to kill the guy who abducts babies, take his stuff, and pay for a true resurrection with it.
Note that not surrendering in the situation you describe is NOT an evil act and will NOT make the paladin lose his powers. It's not the paladin who harms the child, it's the kidnapper.
Explain to your GM that this guy is annoying you, and has to be brought down a peg.
Geas him. "Here is a shovel. Dig a hole right here 30 feet deep by 10' wide by 10' feet wide"
Sit down, relax, watch him dig. Make sure to laugh at him and make the point that he is being humiliated...watch his 'I am the better man' urges surface as he ignores you, or perhaps even tries to lecture you.
At the 20' mark, unload, preferably with prepared scrolls, but whatever works.
First, barred Forcecage to keep him from leaving, then Acid Fog, then as many Cloudkills as you can manage, spaced out to keep draining his Con.
Just before the Forcecage ends, cast Wall of Iron on the edge of the pit, and use an Unseen Servant to dig away at the edge so it falls in...Forcecage ends, and Paladin eats all kinds of extra damage.
...this is all assuming that he is not specc'd to do much more than fight.
I'll add to the general chorus: Targeting his saves will in all likelihood fail. Things that target his regular AC or his CMD aren't that useful, either.
Depending on what other resistances and immunities he got, you still have some options.
Damage spells with ranged touch attacks should be okay to get him. The question is only: Will you get him faster than he can get you? Trying to outperform a paladin (or any warrior, really) in pure damage doesn't work that well really.
So step one should be trying to make it as hard as possible for him to actually attack you. Mirror image, displacement, greater invisibility, mislead, project image - everything that prevents him from even making an attack roll! You might try to boost your AC, too, but that might not work too well - the paladin probably has a really nice attack bonus (especially when smiting).
You might also try hex type magic (i.e. stuff that decreases his abilities or slaps bad conditions on him), but remember that paladins can lay hands on themselves as a swift action, and thanks to mercy, they can get rid of a lot of conditions. So even if you have stuff that doesn't allow a save, you might be out of luck.
Enervation is a good idea - just hope he isn't protected against negative levels. If he isn't, this will really mess him up. It makes him lose a few HP AND slaps a nice, juicy penalty on most of his rolls, especially attack rolls and saving throws. Plus, if he gets too many of them, he'll just die. If you can, apply metamagic to the enervations - quickened, maximised, empowered...
Scorching Ray is not your friend. Resist Fire 30 let's the paladin basically ignore all the scorching rays in the world. Protection from Energy (fire) takes care of the rest.
15th level Wizard, your best friend is a maze spell. Drop this puppy on him and set up to Super Curb Stomp his butt when he pops back out. Buff to the nines, set up for optimal firing range (20-25 ft for most rogues), partial-charge distance for the melee guys, you name it. Your readied action when he pops out: dimensional anchor. You did have greater arcane sight up, right? If so, chain lightning targeting him and the first 14 items of gear you can identify is your next action. If you've stripped his abjurations already and he's survived the readied actions, there's a good chance that his wings aren't working anymore. If he's dead, make as sure as you can that he stays that way. If he's still breathing after you obliterate all of his stuff and dim-locked him so that he has to fight his way out, drop a power word to slow him down. 4th round, since his saves are now about 10 points lower, flesh to stone and enjoy the lawn ornament. Or skip the PW and stone him.
Resilent sphere is a personal favorite for low dex characters. Granted it has a reflex save, but if he cant dispel or teleport you've got 15 minutes (15th level caster) to set up all kinds of nasty crap for him just as you dispel the sphere.
Resilent sphere is a personal favorite for low dex characters. Granted it has a reflex save, but if he cant dispel or teleport you've got 15 minutes (15th level caster) to set up all kinds of nasty crap for him just as you dispel the sphere.
Only two drawbacks: first, he can (probably) see everything being arrayed against him; secondly, he can ready an action too. Many paladins - especially BBGG ones - will have enough proficiency with Spellcraft to have a good idea of what's being made ready against him. As a fallback in case a maze somehow doesn't work, I concur. Bonus brownies if you manage to encapsulate him within some kind of fog first.
Do you have any means to spy out what mercies he uses? It would be a shame to spend a spell causing a condition and then find out that he can remove it with a swift action.
Also a paladins reflex save can still be very respectable if he is geared and statted for saves.
Grasping hand could be interesting. Even if his stats are very good it should have a great chance to succeed at grappling him and even if he is able to grapple out it costs him standard actions. And it can retry to grapple him every round for 15 rounds.
For all the people suggesting Geas...how do you plan for the wizard to live through the 10 minute casting time?
Resilent sphere is a personal favorite for low dex characters. Granted it has a reflex save, but if he cant dispel or teleport you've got 15 minutes (15th level caster) to set up all kinds of nasty crap for him just as you dispel the sphere.Only two drawbacks: first, he can (probably) see everything being arrayed against him; secondly, he can ready an action too. Many paladins - especially BBGG ones - will have enough proficiency with Spellcraft to have a good idea of what's being made ready against him. As a fallback in case a maze somehow doesn't work, I concur. Bonus brownies if you manage to encapsulate him within some kind of fog first.
encapsulate in sphere
block LOS with various killer fog spells and other multi-round no save area effects
Create larger Sphere to encapsulate the various area of effects and the smaller sphere
Dismiss smaller sphere
Eat popcorn
Granted this will take some serious planning and timing, but what else do wizards have to do?
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Scorching Ray is not your friend. Resist Fire 30 let's the paladin basically ignore all the scorching rays in the world. Protection from Energy (fire) takes care of the rest.
I disagree with this assessment because those are not standard Paladin abilities. If we automatically presume he has protection from fire, we must presume he has protection from cold/sonic/force, etc and therefore presume that damage spells as a whole are meaningless. But if that's the case, we should assume he has Dispel Magic and thus duration spells are also moot. We must also presume he has boosted his Reflex to the point of not-sucking and now pretty much all spells are moot. At that point, the only advice one can give is to beg for a merciful death.
I think a couple others said it best: do your research, and find out what his resources are. If he can defend against fire, prepare cold/sonic/acid. If he keeps Dispel handy, skip long duration spells and go for instantaneous.
Paladins are pretty versatile in what they can do, and they don't need to do research to beat on you pretty harshly. They can defend against pretty much everything by 17th level, but not all at once. If you don't know what you are walking in to, you will get stomped, and all the advice in this thread is meaningless.
Smokey the Antipaladin says "Only research can prevent wizard smiting"
Ok, the joke was better in my head...
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Seriously? You are a level 15 Wizard. Drop some Elementals on him. Preferably a half a dozen or more. Better yet, go craft yourself crossbow of (whatver species he is) bane bolts and have a hireling unload into him while you keep him at bay with Forcewalls, summoned monsters, and evironmental effects.
Seriously he is a crowbar, you're the whole tool kit. Be creative.
Geas sounds fun but GM will bring back the Geas creature at a later date with some serious fury if you do ;)
also geas won't let you kill the creature if you attack a geased creature it will defend itself because its reasonable that defending itself is required if it is to complete the task its been given
either way you still have to deal with the creature at some point.
plus the trick only works once on GM's they'll have lackeis ready with spell to break the geas if you throw it on the BBEG again. Or they'll just give the BBEG contingency spells from some source or spell absorbing/reflecting magic items to ruin your day.
heh its a can o worm best left shut ;)
He's playing a level 15 wizard and this paladin BBEG is a few levels higher than him. Paladins gain immunity to compulsion spells by like, 17th or 18th level. Geas (a compulsion spell) may just flat-out fail, depending on the paladin's level.
Maze. So much Maze. Even the most intelligent Paladins are likely to spend a big chunk of time lost in there, which will give you time to get away, if nothing else. Similarly, drop Forcecages, magic Walls, swarm him with minions. Anything to take him out of the fight, or waste his actions on targets that aren't you.
forcecage + cloudkill = slow death :)
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Resist Energy is a 2nd level Paladin spell. For a high level Paladin going up against a Wizard, it's probably going to fall into the standard spell set.
Is he casting it five times to defend against all five energy types? Does he know you're coming? Has he peeked at your spellbook to know which energy types you're packing?
Vary it up a bit, get through his defenses, and move on. I've never been intimidated by Resist Energy as a defense against instantaneous spells because I don't stick to one energy type.
TK his sword away.
Ummmm, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.
Spectral Hand so you don't actually have to TOUCH him yourself...Then go to town with Touch spells.
But really, your big problem, is that all the spells that would allow for REALLY damaging him... Bestow Curse, Feeblemind, Touch of Idiocy which you could totally gimp his charisma with, are all Compulsions or Curses.. which if he's as high level as you say he'll either be immune too or can cure with one Lay on Hands if he has the Mercy Cursed.
Same reason you can't use Geas to cause him to do something he'd have to atone for or take huge penalties. He's immune to Compulsions.
Paladins are actually one of the hardest character types to fight. With a high charisma ALL of their saves get a huge bonus. If you're 15th level and he's several levels higher than you then he's got a minimum of +6 to his weakest save (Reflex) and +11 to his Fort and Will, then he gets his normal ability scores, PLUS his charisma added to them. So yeah, even if his charisma is just a +4 he's got a minimum 15/10/15 and that's assuming he has 10 Con, 10 Dex, 10 Wis, which is pretty doubtful.
On top of that he's Immune too:
Fear
Diseases (Including Magical Ones)
Compulsions
and has DR 5/Evil
Even the book example shows how useful his Lay of Hands is: 12th-level paladin's lay on hands ability heals 6d6 points of damage and might also cure fatigued and exhausted conditions as well as removing diseases and neutralizing poisons. Once a condition or spell effect is chosen, it can't be changed. If this Paladin IS around level 18 then he can cast Lay on Hands a minimum of 9 times a day (plus his charisma) curing 9d6 points of damage and curing 6 Mercy types: Sickened, Staggered, Cursed, Blinded, Deafened, Paralyzed (all options that will ALL be cured every time he uses Lay on Hands) AND if he's curing himself its a SWIFT action. Which means he can Swift cure most crippling effects, THEN move, THEN attack. At least 9 times... which makes Power Word Blind questionably effective.
Add to that a 19th level Paladin has 4 attacks, can smite evil 7/day and has access to 4th level Paladin spells which gives him access to spells like Restoration which will completely negate negative levels.
Frankly, you've got your work cut out for you. The above suggestions about looking into spells that have no saves is a good one. But really, if its just you vs this Paladin I suggest DON'T.
A lot will depend on the make up of your party. Something to consider is Scrying to see if you can learn his habits and weaknesses. Then make plans based on what you learn. But Paladin's are pretty much the ultimate solo spec.
I always thought contiguous flames from APG was just a terrible pain if you have another target near him.
Is this listed as something else? Search fu is hurt by my getting ready for work at same time, but could not find "contiguous" entry that seemed to apply in APG.
Greg
He's referring to Contagious Flame. It wouldn't work the way described, however.
Every round on your turn, a new ray of fire launches from each creature who took damage from the spell in the previous round—these new rays attack as if you fired them, but their point of origin is the previous creature damaged. You can choose the new targets as a free action, all of whom must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) of their new starting point. This contagion of flame continues for a total of three rounds—a creature can be struck more than once by this spell over the course of these three rounds, although never by a ray of fire that launches from itself.
Note that it does not say a new ray launches for each ray that hit, only that any target that took damage launches a new ray. If the original 4 rays (which is what a 15th level wizard would get) all hit one target, only one ray would launch out. At least, that's my reading of it.
get a scroll of imprisonement and pray!
Just cast the Spell Summon Better Paladin ;) and let him win it for you :P
He's referring to Contagious Flame. It wouldn't work the way described, however.
Every round on your turn, a new ray of fire launches from each creature who took damage from the spell in the previous round—these new rays attack as if you fired them, but their point of origin is the previous creature damaged. You can choose the new targets as a free action, all of whom must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) of their new starting point. This contagion of flame continues for a total of three rounds—a creature can be struck more than once by this spell over the course of these three rounds, although never by a ray of fire that launches from itself.
Note that it does not say a new ray launches for each ray that hit, only that any target that took damage launches a new ray. If the original 4 rays (which is what a 15th level wizard would get) all hit one target, only one ray would launch out. At least, that's my reading of it.
Ah okay, thanks. It seemed over the top, but the name was not clicking for me to read up on my own. Thanks for the clairification and the rundown on the spell. Honestly, I don't have the APG spells memorized even by name.
Greg