Just a thought, but maybe the problem isn't the art...but wives?
And children.
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I'll point out that there is precident in the music marketplace for selling censored versions of CDs alongside the uncensored version. Given that precident, Loboluk's question is entirely fair.
No. The music industry and the print industry are two entirely different beasts. The cost to produce a CD in bulk is way lower then the cost to create a book in bulk. Also, the censored CDs are practically required by a marketing/radio release perspective. They actually help sell the non-censored versions.
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Maybe a future option for the Paizo peeps to consider would be to offer a PDF version without any character art... same layout and everything else, just a blank white rectangle as a placeholder for the art? Then the adult purchaser would have the full version, and the kids (or mom or whomever) could view their redacted version on their PC/iPad/whatever.
(I have no idea if this is workable from Paizo's workflow perspective or not.)
And if the art is blank when printed out, it gives the kids a spot to draw/color in their own "iconic" character.
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Wooow, I didn't know that Paizo sells their wares in Iran and Saudi Arabia...
On a slightly serious note: We'll sell them wherever people are buying.
I'm not aware of any game stores in those countries, but we have customers who have their products shipped there.
I'm sure there are also PDF customers there.
Aw, come on guys, the PMG even asked very nicely:
I'm not really qualified to comment on what products we do or do not publish, but I would like to request that this thread not turn into one of those several-hundred-post pile-on/flamewars about sexuality, modesty, morality or the way people choose to raise their own children.
Can we please not go there?
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We also had an alternate cover for #13.The only alternative artwork I'm aware of was on Rise of the Runelords#1.
And so both alternate covers had more sexy not less, lol. (power is sexy, no?)
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Aw, come on guys, the PMG even asked very nicely:
I'm not really qualified to comment on what products we do or do not publish, but I would like to request that this thread not turn into one of those several-hundred-post pile-on/flamewars about sexuality, modesty, morality or the way people choose to raise their own children.Can we please not go there?
Sorry, my debauched, godless, hyper-sexed, violent, Alex-DeLarge-was-my-hero European mind just can't resist.
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this is a tough question. It's always turned me off that they started to take away boobs from the fantasy games. I'm sure there are others out there that must feel the same way. Dnd always seemed more rock and rollish to me than little kiddish.
Me too. I first bought the Red Box after seeing Red Sonja when I was 10, and got into AD&D when I was 12 and my babysitter's older brother gave me a giant box with all of the 1E hardcover books and a stack of issues of Heavy Metal and Savage Sword of Conan magazines.
For me D&D will always be most strongly associated with Heavy Metal, Conan, 80's metal (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.) and chicks in metal bikinis.
I get titchy when people try to suggest that is some form of badwrongfun.
Director of Narrative
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This really isn’t a thread about any kinda sexual morality in RPGs.
A dude (assuming, I apologize) asked a question, and from what I’ve seen it was a genuine question, not some “I’m mad at the world” trollism. It’s been answered, so let’s let this RPG morality discussion die faster than it has for the dozens of other threads where this kinda talk popped up, eh?
What I’m seeing isn’t a guy shielding his family from questionably offensive material, but rather a guy that REALLY wants to play Pathfinder and is looking for something that might make it easier to play with his gaming group. As far as I’m concerned, we can bring in new players, or we can annoy them with what we think the game represents, how it can be used, or who should play it.
i do do most of that actually, lol i dont get why formal ballrooms?
Ballrooms tend to have people with open back dresses and/or slits in the dresses, which contribute to a great deal of skin being shown.
As for the printing, if you have or have access to a laser printer, price will be marginal. The local Office Max offers binding with comb or spiral options, including clear/black covers for around $3 (New York State). I printed out both the Ultimate Magic and Advanced Players Guide at home and took them in. The whole trip cost about $18 (bought 2 reams of paper as well) and maybe 20 minutes while they prepared the pages (AKA hole punched).
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I have shown my rulebooks to my niece and nephew, both still under 10. They have looked thorugh the books, and aside for my sister b*****g at me for showing them the leng spider, which is effing horrifying, there has been no problem. Kids just don't see the world the way we do.
So, to be honest, i don't see what your problem is with a little fanservice, your kids probably won't notice.
A wife is another matter, into which i do not delve, for personal reasons.
I didn't mean to kick off any kind of discussion. I was just taken by surprise and posted a stream of consciousness. Apologies for my part in this man. Happy gaming.
You had just as much right to post your response as the original poster had to create this thread. I, for one, found your point extremely logical in pointing out a disconnect between acceptability levels for sex and violence, and I was glad you made it so I didn't have to.
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Maybe a future option for the Paizo peeps to consider would be to offer a PDF version without any character art... same layout and everything else, just a blank white rectangle as a placeholder for the art? Then the adult purchaser would have the full version, and the kids (or mom or whomever) could view their redacted version on their PC/iPad/whatever.
Actually, screw that. I'd like a version available for me in EPUB format (though I'll take PDF in a pinch) that has *no* images whatsoever, including margin decorations, so I can load it up on my Nook and have pages load some time this week -- and so it won't look like someone took a magic marker to the Nook.
I want the normal PDFs (as I already have them), too, because sometimes I want to see them on my laptop as well. Of course.
Actually, screw that. I'd like a version available for me in EPUB format (though I'll take PDF in a pinch) that has *no* images whatsoever, including margin decorations, so I can load it up on my Nook and have pages load some time this week -- and so it won't look like someone took a magic marker to the Nook.
I want the normal PDFs (as I already have them), too, because sometimes I want to see them on my laptop as well. Of course.
ePub lacks a lot of the formatting options found in PDFs and even basic HTML. I imagine it'd be a significant amount of work to convert any of the PDFs into ePub and still get looking usable.
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Assuming the original poster is still reading...
One of the main causes to crack open the books is to check out the wording of spells and feats.
Have you considered the various brands of spell cards and feat cards?
I know Louis Porter make these, among others.
As well as providing an art-free resource, they also work in their intended role, speeding up play, especially for players learning a new system.
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I'd just like to say, if I can do so without giving offense to other people's wives, that this thread has renewed my awareness of how cool my wife is.
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We also had an alternate cover for #13.The only alternative artwork I'm aware of was on Rise of the Runelords#1.
And thank you for that! Though my disdain for elves is matched only by JJ's disdain for dwarves, I certainly loved Second Darkness =D
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Less destructive book censorship:
- Create a paper book cover from a paper bag, newspaper, printer paper, etc. Google 'paper book covers' for ideas.
- Photocopy pages with artwork you don't like, cut out the offensive artwork from the photocopy, photocopy the result, attach to the book's page with three small paper clips (top, right, bottom). This is not so good for the book's binding over time, but it beats magic marker (which can bleed through) by far.
- Least destructive: buy some clear plastic page protectors (the type that can hold pages in binders), carefully slice the long side open with an x-acto knife, slide the photocopied page in (from the above suggestion), and slide it onto the book's offending page upside-down. Trim the protruding side with 3 holes off, if you want. Carefully tape the open side (which would be the bottom now) closed, if you want.
I don't share the OP's opinion at all, but I understand because I'm guilty of the opposite. If Seoni were a morbidly obese slob instead of a hottie, I certainly wouldn't want to look at her.
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ps, re ballroom dancing: Ballroom dancers typically show way more skin than Seoni. Safe For Work example
Well, she's in great shape...
...my disdain for elves is matched only by JJ's disdain for dwarves...
Oh is it now? >.>
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I don't share the OP's opinion at all, but I understand because I'm guilty of the opposite. If Seoni were a morbidly obese slob instead of a hottie, I certainly wouldn't want to look at her.
So you've read Hook Mountain Massacre I take it?
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So you've read Hook Mountain Massacre I take it?
No. Is that the mountain?
Honestly though, it would be hard to build an able sorcerer if you couldn't stop picturing the iconic double-fisting cheeseburgers.
I have a similar problem with Paul Gustave Doré. I found his Andromeda too naked.
No, wait..
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I have a similar problem with Paul Gustave Doré. I found his Andromeda too naked.
No, wait..
Might want to add a NSFW warning. Same for Ogre. Better safe than sorry for those that might click the links.
I don't understand why this is such a hot topic.
Answer the man, and move on. Whether you disagree with the man or not doesn't really factor into it. You think you're gonna convince him to like the art on a internet message board? Hardly.
To the OP: The short answer is no.
The long answer is.. maybe.
The framework for Pathfinder is open source, so you can find all the rules, spells etc on d20pfsrd.com (as somone already mentioned)
The setting however, is a diffrent matter and might be harder to find a solution to. But you could always just buy PDFs and print the few pages you actually need. With or without images.
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I apologize in advance if I seem to stress my point too strongly.
It's just that as much as I love US's cultural production (music, movies, RPG, games ,etc), as a brazillian I just can't swallow this false moralism when it comes to sex.
Sex is just out there: magazines, TV, the internet, at the beach, on the street. And still the USA insists on treating it as something "unnatural". Oh, c'mon. Seeing a sorcerer dressed like it is on the book won't turn your kids into perverts. Not just that, they'll have sex one day, right?
It's just better to raise them presenting it as something natural but also giving all the right information. As much as you hide the hideous and scandalous Pathfinder artwork from them, at school they might just play doctor with their friends, and you'll probably never even know it!
11 out of 10 pornography websites are from the USA. So why pretend that sex is this God forbidden thing, that no child should be aware of? I'm not telling you to have sex in front of them, but it is not the artwork of a fantasy book that'll break your kids.
Treating sex as a huge taboo will only make them more curious about what it is, and maybe even traumatize them later on.
Just control the information so that they take each information step by step, as they age, but never treat is as forbidden.
Paizo, the artwork of the books are GREAT, and there is absolutely no reason to soften it. It is not inappropriate for children at all.
Dammit, I just put my popcorn down.
I apologize in advance if I seem to stress my point too strongly.
It's just that as much as I love US's cultural production (music, movies, RPG, games ,etc), as a brazillian I just can't swallow this false moralism when it comes to sex.
Sex is just out there: magazines, TV, the internet, at the beach, on the street. And still the USA insists on treating it as something "unnatural". Oh, c'mon. Seeing a sorcerer dressed like it is on the book won't turn your kids into perverts. Not just that, they'll have sex one day, right?
It's just better to raise them presenting it as something natural but also giving all the right information. As much as you hide the hideous and scandalous Pathfinder artwork from them, at school they might just play doctor with their friends, and you'll probably never even know it!
11 out of 10 pornography websites are from the USA. So why pretend that sex is this God forbidden thing, that no child should be aware of? I'm not telling you to have sex in front of them, but it is not the artwork of a fantasy book that'll break your kids.
Treating sex as a huge taboo will only make them more curious about what it is, and maybe even traumatize them later on.
Just control the information so that they take each information step by step, as they age, but never treat is as forbidden.
Paizo, the artwork of the books are GREAT, and there is absolutely no reason to soften it. It is not inappropriate for children at all.
There exist some pretty big arguments for cultural relativity on a moderated scale. I wouldn't dream of telling a strict Muslim woman to lighten up and show a little skin once in a while.
Is it time for a smurf yet?
better than fake tea parties.
TEA PARTIES ARENT FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!
Do not reply to this post!*
Why not?
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Might want to add a NSFW warning. Same for Ogre. Better safe than sorry for those that might click the links.I have a similar problem with Paul Gustave Doré. I found his Andromeda too naked.
No, wait..
Ack. Sorry about that.
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Ack. Sorry about that.Might want to add a NSFW warning. Same for Ogre. Better safe than sorry for those that might click the links.I have a similar problem with Paul Gustave Doré. I found his Andromeda too naked.
No, wait..
No problem, it didn't bother me. But it could be a issue for some if they opened it at work. :)
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Maybe a future option for the Paizo peeps to consider would be to offer a PDF version without any character art... same layout and everything else, just a blank white rectangle as a placeholder for the art? Then the adult purchaser would have the full version, and the kids (or mom or whomever) could view their redacted version on their PC/iPad/whatever.
(I have no idea if this is workable from Paizo's workflow perspective or not.)
And if the art is blank when printed out, it gives the kids a spot to draw/color in their own "iconic" character.
I could have sworn that there were some companies that put out their pdfs with a "no art" option to keep the file size down.
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I like this guy's art style and a few of the other pieces of his work I've managed to find. Any chance Paizo could get him to do some artwork for their books?I have a similar problem with Paul Gustave Doré. I found his Andromeda too naked.
No, wait..
As soon as they will be able to time-travel to mid-XIX century, sure ;)
So to answer your question, NO. They don't offer any alternative artwork. And I can't imagine a world where a publishing company would. The costs to them would be crazy. I can't even imagine what possessed you to think they would offer such a product. I mean, who does that? Seriously, name one single game company who does what you're asking about/for(publishing different versions of role-playing game system with alternative art.)
I didn't think so.
I will point out that Silver Age Sentinels did have two versions of their core book out. The standard hard back with all the pictures and the "Stingy" paperback version without the pictures at about 1/4 of the cover price. So I don't think the idea is beyond any consideration of a print press, just not a common practice.
Also in the electronic age, it may be slightly easier coming up with a non-image version of a pdf file, so that may also be a possibility.
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I won't be an hypocrit on this : I have found that I enjoy books with good art more than books without.
I like the current Paizo art, and there are other RPG companies showing much more skin out there.
I also buy RPG books with much less art, or B&W art, and strangely enough ... they don't quite get my attention as much.
So for me : don't change anything.
Best,