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Apparently those pictures arent as sexual as a bit of exposed cleavage and or leg. Because women (and gay guys)dont get as uncontrollably turned on by shirtless d00ds with ripped abs and what not.
No, no, no. It's because men are towers of iron will and self-confidence, and being constantly exposed to images of men with physiques they could never hope to achieve has no effect on them. But women, see, women are delicate little flowers whose self-esteem is easily crushed, and images of sexy, buxom women with tiny waists cripples their sense of self-worth and causes them to become anorexic and starve themselves to death.
What? I mean, that's the argument, right? You've got the "Women's ankles are dirty and sinful!" crowd on one side, and the "Women are killing themselves because they can't hope to compete with cheesecake!" crowd on the other side. Am I ridiculing their arguments? Sure. But don't these kinds of arguments deserve a bit of ridicule?
[Spelling Nazi]Nein, es ist geschrieben "we're!"[/Spelling Nazi]At this point were quibbling about something that neither of us are going to change our minds about regarding the specific examples I brought up. There is a whole slew of speculative BS we can throw at each other about characters about why they are or aren't wearing clothes. But I've got to hammer this home for you, all the objections I and the people who have spoken to me have are not moral. Perhaps you're not directing that towards me, but I just want to make that clear.
Also, I think you meant droves rather than troves. Unless they're running away towards treasure :)
Your German is terrible. it should be "Nein, es wird 'we're' geschrieben." :P
I think I got the d/troves thing wrong once before. Experience is the ability to recognise errors as you repeat them!
So wait, if you went to a great restaurant and they served one thing on your plate that you didn't like, would you ask (politely obviously) for something you do like instead or would you just walk out?
When I eat at some place like Jackson Hole and order let's say one of their tasty burgers it comes with a pickle and a side order of cole slaw. I don't like or eat whole pickles or Coe slaw. When they bring me my burger (the one that I asked for) if the burger is fine I could give a crap about the stuff that I dont like or wasnt going to eat anyway. Nor am I gonna sit there and complain (politely) about the fact that I got cole slaw or a pickle with my meal. In fact if I'm eating with someone I offer the cole slaw and pickle to them to see if they want it. But I'm not going to request that Jackson Hole STOP serving pickles or cole slaw because I dont eat them.
So in answer to your question, I'd probably neither as for something else NOR walk out. I'd eat the meal that I ordered and make a note to have them to next time hold whatever I didn't like. If they for some reason couldn't or wouldn't do that? I'd try something else on the menu the next time I went. If the food and / or the service were exceptionally bad I wouldn't go back.
Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Not at all. In some cases, clothes really make no sense. I'm not saying I want gratuitous nudity (though that would be awesome! ;-)), but if nudity makes sense, I'd like it to be there.
I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing.
The problem really is those prude Americans. A country that has a major crisis when someone accidentally exposes her boob on live TV for a moment is not a country that is very tolerant of nudity.
The whole thing has been discussed to death and back again killions of times, but until stuff like that won't put Paizo at risk we probably won't see any nudity.
I do think that Pathfinder material has a pretty good handle at discussing the whole theme, even if its more in the written word than in pictures.
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I feel that the art only becomes a problem when it starts driving players off from the game. Some amount of this is inevitable, yes, like KaeYoss says. But the girls I game with are not exactly repressed — they just react badly to a small number of very specific pieces, ones where I feel they have a point.
No, the girls you game with are ideological. They've bought into the Beauty Myth Myth.
I get that you think they have a point, but really...they don't. They don't like some of the art. Everyone doesn't like some of the art. The only difference between your friends and everyone else is that everyone else is expressing what is clearly a personal opinion, and your friends are masking their personal opinions behind a layer of what is, frankly, ideological nonsense in order to give their opinions the illusion of moral weight.
Paizo isn't going to sell one more book by giving into the demands of the ideologically motivated. Because that's a rabbit hole that has no bottom, and the only proper response to those kinds of complaints is to ignore them and focus on the people who are receptive to what you're doing.
People made these exact same complaints about D&D art way back when TSR regularly featured images of naked women being presented as sacrificial offerings and prizes to be pried from the hands of monsters. Thirty years later and the art has changed dramatically, with women no longer being presented as overly sexualized prizes to be taken. But you know what hasn't changed? At all? The nature and tone of the complaints. Now instead of complaining legitimately about naked women laid out on altars (which is a bit egregious), they complain that you can see Amri's bellybutton. Oh noes!
And they will never stop complaining. It will always be something. Because once you start giving people's opinions the illusion of moral force, they get addicted to the power of complaining. So they don't ever stop. The only way to deal with that is to ignore them.
And kudos for paizo for making a fantasy game for fans of fantasy, instead of caving into pressures from people who are just fans of complaining.
Edit: Upon further reflection, it would be interesting to see the views of Calistria's followers contrasted against those of Shelyn and Desna (among others).
There might not be too much about it, but the books do tell about the tension between Shelyn and Calistria: Shelyn thinks that sex is a form of love and should be connected to romantic feelings (she isn't flat-out against casual sex, since it can lead to romantic feelings), while Calistria's motto is "Love the food, not the chef!"
Since those two have an actual stake in the matter, they have strong opinions about it - Shelyn as goddess of Love, Calistria as goddess of Lust.
Other deities also have stated opinions about the whole matter, but apparently they don't get into rows about it as much as the two goddesses above.
Erastil is mostly against casual sex, since he's all about family, and traditional (some call them hopelessly outdated) family roles: You don't sleep around, you find a match, you marry, you have children, and then the man works (usually as a farmer or hunter, though of course other craftsmen like smiths, bakers, tailors and the like contribute to the community, too) while the woman cares for home, hearth, and the children.
Cayden Cailean is all for the occasional (or frequent) tumble in the hey. His herald Thais sometimes sleeps with mortals she meets during her dealings on the material plane if she thinks they're good people.
I don't know of a direct statement about Desna, but I guess that she has no problems with either love or lust. If you want to marry, go ahead. If you just want to have a fling, go ahead.
1) I don't think there is an equal amount of flesh shown on men as there are on women in Pathfinder. In the APG not a single Iconic male shows any skin (besides face and hands) while the women are just bursting out of their clothes.
Page 242 Sieltiel (sp?) is showing some man cleavage. ON page 213 (which is an action shot from the side) the same character is leaping toward an opponent chest exposed.
HA! I just noticed this one, on page 313 there's a picture of the male iconic wizard apparently in the middle of a curse that's changing his sex. His chest is obviously female, but his head is still that of his male persona.
page 261 there's a picture of a female Battle Herald who is fully armored and clothed with not a stich of skin showing other than her face.
page 245 there's a picture of the iconic cleric turning a staff into a snake and aside from her arms and face she's fully covered. Unless the fact that you can see that she is in fact a woman by her breasts is offensive.
The male monk Sajan I think his name is is also pretty bare chested through out most of his pictures.
Like I said, the forest has gotten lost among the trees. I'm done quibbling. Dismiss away!
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So wait, if you went to a great restaurant and they served one thing on your plate that you didn't like, would you ask (politely obviously) for something you do like instead or would you just walk out?
Except, Robert, this isn't a restaurant where we can swap out another "side" just for *your* entree. We can't publish a book with the art the way we like it, *and* provide you with that same book with different art in its place. We either leave the art the way it is, or we change *all* the art in *all* the books to comply with this request.
So what is being asked is not, "can I get fries instead of cole slaw?," it's "can you stop serving cole slaw to everyone just because I don't like cole slaw?"
And we can't do that.
It's probably been mentioned earlier in the thread, but the easiest solution seems to be buying the PDFs, then getting a color laser printer and a three-ring binder. Is X monster too naughty for your family? Don't print her out.
In a previous game, I had a player who had sworn to his grandfather that he would not play in any roleplaying game that included demons or devils. I was not going to change my world, nor was I going to force a player to go back on a vow, so I told him that the party would never encounter demons, devils, or any other fiendish plot or plotline unless they specifically went out of their way to look for one. Admittedly the players were wondering why they were running into so many evil necromancers and wicked enchantresses after that, but that's a side issue.
The point is, if you want to have a book without X, the only person who can really censor it to your personal standards is yourself.
In a previous game, I had a player who had sworn to his grandfather that he would not play in any roleplaying game that included demons or devils.
That's a weirdly-specific promise, like promising not to marry someone born on a Wednesday. :p
I think I'll ask some friend of mine to make a new thread about how he wants pretty much the same thing due to his wife being a devout Muslim and ANY revealing female dress is a no-go for her. Not just oversexualized boobies.
I'm pretty bloody curious if that will get the same level of support, back-patting, appreciation and care from the forum dwellers as the Christian gentleman who started this thread.
I'm an atheist. The girls I refer to are committed atheists, and scientists to boot.
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[Spelling Nazi]Nein, es ist geschrieben "we're!"[/Spelling Nazi]Your German is terrible. it should be "Nein, es wird 'we're' geschrieben." :P
I think I got the d/troves thing wrong once before. Experience is the ability to recognise errors as you repeat them!
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I thought about trying proper German, but that would be boring!
In a previous game, I had a player who had sworn to his grandfather that he would not play in any roleplaying game that included demons or devils.That's a weirdly-specific promise, like promising not to marry someone born on a Wednesday. :p
Agreed. I think it goes under the old "speak of the devil" business from folklore, where merely mentioning the devil is enough to get him to show up.
Of course, that leads to another fun bit from another game where the players were having trouble with Titivulus, the demon presiding over transcription errors and people who fall asleep in church. He appeared, at which point the player protested that they'd purposefully misspelled and mispronounced his name.
I then pointed out that this was Titivulus we were talking about. Misspelling the name of the demon lord of misspelling?
So wait, if you went to a great restaurant and they served one thing on your plate that you didn't like, would you ask (politely obviously) for something you do like instead or would you just walk out?
No, I would have read the menu first, and trusted the chiefs judgement. It is my experience that chiefs at great restaurants know their business, and that dishes work as a whole, not as a series of separate items.
I see no reason to inconvenience the kitchen staff, so that I can eat an incomplete and sensually unbalanced meal that is likely to be worse than one of the other very tempting dishes on the menu.
I mean seriously, if the lime, coriander and white wine viniger dressing is their to cut through the fat of the duck breast and black pudding, I am not going to say 'can i have ketchup in stread of lime, coriander and white wine viniger dressing please, no matter how much I hate lime, coriander or white wine viniger and love ketchup. Incidents I love them all.
Al doing so would do is make the starter taste like arse, and deprive me of having a different starter that I would have liked without pissing off the kitchen.
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Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
Still, it's just not a safe business decision. There are too many greedy lawyers out there.
For the record, I consider depictions of careless violence to be much more harmful. And that's why I shield my 4-year-old from certain news, films and pictures.
Would I mind seeing nudity or sex in Paizo books? Definitely not as long as it is part of context.
However, the original poster asked about different thing - he wanted his significant other and kid avoid being slighted by apparent objectification of fairer sex. I think that asking the ladies would be for the best. Speculation or mocking his fears is unlikely to be helpful.
Regards,
RuemerePS. I don't think that Arnold S. or Jason M. are objectifying male sex by posing as Mr C.
Does his family watch television? The objectification of woman in pathfinder is considerably less than much of the media out their, including media aimed at young people. Especially in advertising.
Moreover, the general message of pathfinder with regards to gender, as far as I can see is this 'Girls kick arse.' When I have children, that is a message I very certainly want them to pick up on.
I then pointed out that this was Titivulus we were talking about. Misspelling the name of the demon lord of misspelling?
That's like a Fiend of Hatred. Do you hate that fiend? You're playing right into his hand. Or do you love him? That will ruin his aeon, but then you're the fiend lover and people will shun you for it. You're basically screwed.
Now, I think I shall invent a Fiend of Not Thinking About Pink Elephants.
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Moreover, the general message of pathfinder with regards to gender, as far as I can see is this 'Girls kick arse.'
Definitely. Who are the female iconics?
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you know glamoured armor is pretty cheap and it makes sense to appear like your wearing alot less when your actually wearing alot more, any edge you can have over an opponent is worthwhile.
In a previous game, I had a player who had sworn to his grandfather that he would not play in any roleplaying game that included demons or devils.That's a weirdly-specific promise, like promising not to marry someone born on a Wednesday. :p
Not really...
I remember getting 'the talk' about how D&D was a scary evil game because it involved demons and devils...
My general argument has always been... 'yeah... and I KILL them!!!"
Regardless, I can picture many players having to have made similiar 'promises' to their parents in order to play.
Which is really my only arguement against overly sexy artwork... (NOT that Pathfinder HAS it. LIke Kayeoss just posted, there's a list of like 9 females... and only 2 could be considered 'sexy'...)
but yeah, if I got started with the EARLY games with actual 'nudity' in the graphics... I wouldn't have been allowed to play. I beleive that the 'packaging' of the game should ENCOURAGE people to play... Not scare them off.
Some arguements are just not worth fighting... and trying to convince people/girls/parents that NO these games are NOT for the emo 'demon worshiping' guys who wear capes in their parents basements, who like ot look at naughty pictures...
it's just a fight that isn't needed. If you got people who go to see Lord of the Rings and then show intrest in the game... only to roll their eyes at the artwork and dismiss it... Something went wrong.
Regardless, I can picture many players having to have made similiar 'promises' to their parents in order to play.
"I won't have anything to do with demons and devils."
"I won't have anything to do with entertainment that mentions demons and devils.""I won't play games that mention demons and devils."
"I won't play in roleplaying games that include demons and devils."
The fourth is unusually specific, and KAM's post sounded like his player was specifically swearing that last one, instead of one of the earlier ones, thus my comment. :)
Moreover, the general message of pathfinder with regards to gender, as far as I can see is this 'Girls kick arse.' When I have children, that is a message I very certainly want them to pick up on.
I think it is more accurately, "Attractive Women Kick Arse." (though not necessarily sexualized)
Unfortunately, I don't think we have yet reached the point where a woman can have less than perfect face or body proportions (whether she shows them off or not) and still be admired. Even the 18 Str barbarian looks more like a run way model and less like a female bodybuilder or (strength dominated sport) athlete based on her body proportions (again, not necessarily on her clothing).
Regardless, I can picture many players having to have made similiar 'promises' to their parents in order to play."I won't have anything to do with demons and devils."
"I won't have anything to do with entertainment that mentions demons and devils."
"I won't play games that mention demons and devils."
"I won't play in roleplaying games that include demons and devils."The fourth is unusually specific, and KAM's post sounded like his player was specifically swearing that last one, instead of one of the earlier ones, thus my comment. :)
Exactly. Negotiations between a roleplayer and an extremely conservative Christian minister grandfather at the tail end of the "Satanic panic" from the 80s that brought us such unexpected delights and Tamari and Battyzoo or however they were spelled in 2nd edition.
I somehow suspect Titivulus had something to do with those names.
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I was just wondering what the results would be if you polled say 1000 average people in the streets of a american big city (LA/NY/Huston. I'm betting that probably less than 1% would object to the art in the books. Paizo is probably fine with that number of people that are turned away from their game due to the art work being to risque.
I think it is more accurately, "Attractive Women Kick Arse." (though not necessarily sexualized)
Unfortunately, I don't think we have yet reached the point where a woman can have less than perfect face or body proportions (whether she shows them off or not) and still be admired. Even the 18 Str barbarian looks more like a run way model and less like a female bodybuilder or (strength dominated sport) athlete based on her body proportions (again, not necessarily on her clothing).
Ehhh There are different opinions of 'attractive'. I don't have the books in front of me... but as I recall, it took me a couple of looks to realize that the barbarian WAS a woman...The short hair, and the covered up... and the big sword... looked a bit more anime-boy to me than 'attractive woman'...
Also the gnome looks a bit to childish... and I'll NEVER find a half-orc attractive ;)
And... that Half-orc looks like she could kick some SERIOUS butt... :P
Rogue and witch were more creepy than hot... Really... The only 'HOT' looking one in the core that "I" remember was the sorceress...
I think it is more accurately, "Attractive Women Kick Arse." (though not necessarily sexualized)
Unfortunately, I don't think we have yet reached the point where a woman can have less than perfect face or body proportions (whether she shows them off or not) and still be admired. Even the 18 Str barbarian looks more like a run way model and less like a female bodybuilder or (strength dominated sport) athlete based on her body proportions (again, not necessarily on her clothing).
Ehhh There are different opinions of 'attractive'. I don't have the books in front of me... but as I recall, it took me a couple of looks to realize that the barbarian WAS a woman...The short hair, and the covered up... and the big sword... looked a bit more anime-boy to me than 'attractive woman'...
Also the gnome looks a bit to childish... and I'll NEVER find a half-orc attractive ;)
And... that Half-orc looks like she could kick some SERIOUS butt... :P
Rogue and witch were more creepy than hot... Really... The only 'HOT' looking one in the core that "I" remember was the sorceress...
As I said, body proportions.
As for the half-orc. Well looking at this image. If you take away the tusk and replace the green skin with pink, she could very well be an elf.
And yes, these females do "kick butt", but that wasn't my point. We have gone from attractive females (based on body proportions) are fine for damsels in distress to now are fine for butt kicking heroes. I just welcome the day that not so perfectly proportion females are fine for butt kicking heroes as well.
How many female players are kicking down the door to play female dwarves (generally described as short and bulking != Barbie dimensions)? Especially as compared to those that want to play elves, half-elves, and humans? I hope one day, that it is comparable to the number of males do.
And yes, these females do "kick butt", but that wasn't my point. We have gone from attractive females (based on body proportions) are fine for damsels in distress to now are fine for butt kicking heroes. I just welcome the day that not so perfectly proportion females are fine for butt kicking heroes as well.
Like Shelyn's art in Gods and Magic. :)
How many female players are kicking down the door to play female dwarves
Well, my wife's playing a female dwarf barbarian (who talks and looks much like a trucker...).
(BTW I've heard that Blizzard says in World of Warcraft, the least-played race/gender combo is female dwarf, so this isn't just a Pathfinder/D&D issue.)
How many female players are kicking down the door to play female dwarvesWell, my wife's playing a female dwarf barbarian (who talks and looks much like a trucker...).
(BTW I've heard that Blizzard says in World of Warcraft, the least-played race/gender combo is female dwarf, so this isn't just a Pathfinder/D&D issue.)
No doubt there are some women that do play such characters, it is just not very common, which should make you value your wife all the more.
And indeed, this is not a problem restricted to PF/D&D or even fantasy in general. This is something our culture(s) have not yet moved beyond. I remembering hearing that skinnier women and heavier men (up to a point) made more money than heavier women and skinnier men. So, yeah, I definitely agree this is not a "problem" limited to the art work in a RPG product.
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Moreover, the general message of pathfinder with regards to gender, as far as I can see is this 'Girls kick arse.' When I have children, that is a message I very certainly want them to pick up on.I think it is more accurately, "Attractive Women Kick Arse." (though not necessarily sexualized)
Unfortunately, I don't think we have yet reached the point where a woman can have less than perfect face or body proportions (whether she shows them off or not) and still be admired. Even the 18 Str barbarian looks more like a run way model and less like a female bodybuilder or (strength dominated sport) athlete based on her body proportions (again, not necessarily on her clothing).
Attractive they all are, but they come from a wide range of body types and ethnicities. They are hardly 'the beautiful people'
I hardly think Paizo should be held responcible for an issue that almost no aspect our society has managed to get to grips with. Would I prefer their to be less attractive Iconics, sure, but frankly, I am happy that they for Paizo seems to be trying to avoid epic gender fail, and be glad of that.
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Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.Not at all. In some cases, clothes really make no sense. I'm not saying I want gratuitous nudity (though that would be awesome! ;-)), but if nudity makes sense, I'd like it to be there.
I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing.The problem really is those prude Americans. A country that has a major crisis when someone accidentally exposes her boob on live TV for a moment is not a country that is very tolerant of nudity.
The whole thing has been discussed to death and back again killions of times, but until stuff like that won't put Paizo at risk we probably won't see any nudity.
You´are not alone "Zombieneighbours"
There is a goddess of sex and lust, with sacred whores, and there is another pregnant furry-lover evil goddess of monsters, but beware with the cleavage in the artwork...wow...
I´m from Spain, and almost everyday, when I´m going home after work, I see nipples (beaches with girls in topless). And if you turn on the spanish tv, it´s the same. Only in America this thread could exist...;)
Does his family watch television? The objectification of woman in pathfinder is considerably less than much of the media out their, including media aimed at young people. Especially in advertising....Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
Still, it's just not a safe business decision. There are too many greedy lawyers out there.
For the record, I consider depictions of careless violence to be much more harmful. And that's why I shield my 4-year-old from certain news, films and pictures.
Would I mind seeing nudity or sex in Paizo books? Definitely not as long as it is part of context.
However, the original poster asked about different thing - he wanted his significant other and kid avoid being slighted by apparent objectification of fairer sex. I think that asking the ladies would be for the best. Speculation or mocking his fears is unlikely to be helpful.
Regards,
RuemerePS. I don't think that Arnold S. or Jason M. are objectifying male sex by posing as Mr C.
i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night rider was "the car is on fire we had better take our clothes off to survive longer oops i just happened to be wearing my most sexiest underwear possible silly me"
and the same goes for movies we go to kids-in-mind.com to see if it is good for us, and if it is just me and my wife we avoid movies with nudity. EDIT :in general i stick to my belief system pretty closely and do what I need to do to avoid what I call the over-sexualazation of society. just because it is there doesn't mean i need to agree with it or be a willing participant.
Wait you people are still having this conversation?
...
do i need to say that monks dont suck or full BAB is not all it's cracked up to be to get the conversation to change?
It's the nature of conversations that they spin-off into tangents and that related issues get discussed. Personally, I find it interesting to note where others are coming from rather than demanding a strict adherence to only the topic as originally stated.
Actually, I think it's kind of ironic that you'd suggest trying to force a topic change when that's basically what has already happened. I also thought it was ironic that someone with 5-posts to their name flamed me last page for judging you (in my initial post) when I was actually responding to someone completely different. Guess they missed that I addressed the post specifically to that person.
Gotta love the Internet, huh? ;)
i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night rider was "the car is on fire we had better take our clothes off to survive longer oops i just happened to be wearing my most sexiest underwear possible silly me"
ROFL!!!!
Yeah... I've just been catching up on some of the shows I wanted to see.... (I ALSO don't watch cable tv. It's just not worth the money with DVDs and netflix.)
I just got done with the first 2 discs of the modern 'knight rider.' Nearly EVERY episode they find SOME way to get those two in their underwear.... in the shower... sweaty and fighting... SOMETHING sexy ;)
i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night rider was "the car is on fire we had better take our clothes off to survive longer oops i just happened to be wearing my most sexiest underwear possible silly me"
ROFL!!!!
Yeah... I've just been catching up on some of the shows I wanted to see.... (I ALSO don't watch cable tv. It's just not worth the money with DVDs and netflix.)
I just got done with the first 2 discs of the modern 'knight rider.' Nearly EVERY episode they find SOME way to get those two in their underwear.... in the shower... sweaty and fighting... SOMETHING sexy ;)
exactly were they reading my journal or my mind when i was 15?
Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
Still, it's just not a safe business decision. There are too many greedy lawyers out there.
For the record, I consider depictions of careless violence to be much more harmful. And that's why I shield my 4-year-old from certain news, films and pictures.
Would I mind seeing nudity or sex in Paizo books? Definitely not as long as it is part of context.
However, the original poster asked about different thing - he wanted his significant other and kid avoid being slighted by apparent objectification of fairer sex. I think that asking the ladies would be for the best. Speculation or mocking his fears is unlikely to be helpful.
Regards,
RuemerePS. I don't think that Arnold S. or Jason M. are objectifying male sex by posing as Mr C.
i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night rider was "the car is on fire we had better take our clothes off to survive longer oops i just happened to be wearing my most sexiest underwear possible silly me"
and the same goes for movies we go to kids-in-mind.com to see if it is good for us, and if it is just me and my wife we avoid movies with nudity. EDIT :in general i stick to my belief system pretty closely and do what I need to do to avoid what I call the over-sexualazation of society. just because it is there doesn't mean i need to agree with it or be a willing participant.
Just so I can understand your position better. How old are your children?
As adults; why avoid nudity? You and your partner must surely see one another undressed, you must surely see other adults undressed, or in near undress when you go swimming. Nudity and sexuality while closely related, are not always tied. There is nothing unnatural about being in a state of undress.
...i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night rider was "the car is on fire weWeird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
Still, it's just not a safe business decision. There are too many greedy lawyers out there.
For the record, I consider depictions of careless violence to be much more harmful. And that's why I shield my 4-year-old from certain news, films and pictures.
Would I mind seeing nudity or sex in Paizo books? Definitely not as long as it is part of context.
However, the original poster asked about different thing - he wanted his significant other and kid avoid being slighted by apparent objectification of fairer sex. I think that asking the ladies would be for the best. Speculation or mocking his fears is unlikely to be helpful.
Regards,
RuemerePS. I don't think that Arnold S. or Jason M. are objectifying male sex by posing as Mr C.
my kid just turned 1 and took her first step!
of course not! you are taking what i am saying to the the nth degree between 2 married it is fine i am not a never-nude like tobias funke! just i am the only man on the planet who doesn't want to see naked women except his wives because i take my marriage vows seriously, and my faith clearly states "if you look upon a women with lust in your heart you have committed adultery" not to get all cleric on you.|
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I am trying to get my family involved in to role playing and am looking for more family friendly covers. i don't want my eife and child to have to be exposed to giant breasted scantly clad females.
my kid just turned 1 and took her first step!
Well there's your problem. Pathfinder is not an appropriate game for infants.
..
.
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Also, I call shenanigans.
Also, I call shenanigans.
Seconded.
wow your fricking literal
when she is older i want to have a family run pathfinder night. but now i will attempt to get my wife involved...... do i need to clarify anything else? i am not actually a monk either.
EDIT
i am not going to go over hundreds of posts but i did say it was mostly for me and my wife.
i still dont think the artwork is appropriate for either though. i cant take 20 minutes to type a huge long explanation, because i am at work and have to do my job.but usually i do and people just get more confused so i figured the less info the better. geesh
wow your fricking literal
You're
It's never too soon to start teaching proper English to the children.
What? I mean, that's the argument, right? You've got the "Women's ankles are dirty and sinful!" crowd on one side, and the "Women are killing themselves because they can't hope to compete with cheesecake!" crowd on the other side. Am I ridiculing their arguments? Sure. But don't these kinds of arguments deserve a bit of ridicule?
This is a dreadful oversimplification, and completely ignores my carefully stated situation above. Thanks for reducing a nuanced argument to polarized points.
A 298-post wind up...
Well played sir.
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The problem really is those prude Americans. A country that has a major crisis when someone accidentally exposes her boob on live TV for a moment is not a country that is very tolerant of nudity.
Just FYI, "those prude Americans" is a little offensive and many people in the US are as liberal and open minded as you can get. Try not to judge a whole country based on a particular subset of it's people. Keep in mind that "those prude Americans" are also responsible for the world's largest pornography industry.
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Just FYI, "those prude Americans" is a little offensive and many people in the US are as liberal and open minded as you can get. Try not to judge a whole country based on a particular subset of it's people. Keep in mind that "those prude Americans" are also responsible for the world's largest pornography industry.
"Those prude Americans" are also the ones who will throw you in the slammer to do hard time for urinating in your own backyard, or going topless at the local beach (except in NY and one or two other states). And who turn a tenth-of-a-second "wardrobe malfunction" into a $250M lawsuit.
Yeah, the more liberally-minded of us who reside here might resent being lumped with the Puritans, but as long as we allow the latter to make the laws, we have to accept the jeers of our neighbors across the pond and north of the border.
...i cant believe i am getting into this again but no my family gave up on cable a few years back when the 1st episode of night riderWeird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
Still, it's just not a safe business decision. There are too many greedy lawyers out there.
For the record, I consider depictions of careless violence to be much more harmful. And that's why I shield my 4-year-old from certain news, films and pictures.
Would I mind seeing nudity or sex in Paizo books? Definitely not as long as it is part of context.
However, the original poster asked about different thing - he wanted his significant other and kid avoid being slighted by apparent objectification of fairer sex. I think that asking the ladies would be for the best. Speculation or mocking his fears is unlikely to be helpful.
Regards,
RuemerePS. I don't think that Arnold S. or Jason M. are objectifying male sex by posing as Mr C.
As far as your kid goes, it is probably a little early to be worrying about roleplaying games.
I have no lust in my eyes when I look at The Birth of Venus by Botticelli, rather i feel awe at transcendental nature of the creative genius.
I felt no lust when I watched the rape of Lisbet Sallander in Niels Arden Oplev version of the girl with the dragon tattoo, if felt many other things, and I will not forget the scene, or especially desire to rewatch it in the near future, but it helped me to grasps a horror at an emotional level, that I had only been able to approach in an intellectual manner.
My life has been influenced for the better by both pieces of media. You are, cutting from your life, and potentially your child and wife's, the opportunity to experience a range of wonderful pieces of art. It looks to me like you are stunting your self, for the worst of reasons.
Nor are cloths any kind of protection against lust. My eye is drawn to the female form as often by fully clothed woman as not fully clothed. Unnaturally coloured hair , piercing, tattoos, and combat boots are as likely to draw my attention as bare leg. And I suspect that your as easily drawn to some aspect female appearance that is not covered by normal clothing, or is part their off.
More over, the very idea that thinking something means that you have done it, is stupid. On those occasions that you have caught your self looking at a woman other than your wife, and realised your sexually attract to them. You have not committed adultery, this is not a celestial version of 1984 with seraphim and cherubim acting as the thought police. It is beyond illogical, and your stunting your own potential to experience wonderful bit of human culture, for terrible and stupid reasons. Love your wife, remain as faithful to her as you can,but seriously, lying to your self, and hiding from some amazing pieces of culture isn't going to help.
The reason not to watch Knight rider is that it is bad, the removal of clothing because oh look we are in a car on fire, is that it is lazy and crass, which is not how I would describe pathfinders art.
Look, you have a few years before you need to worry about your kid and roleplaying.