FLGS Open Letter


Paizo General Discussion

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Shifty wrote:
Robert Hawkshaw wrote:


There are what, 307 million people in the US and 21 million in Australia? And Australia has 34 GW stores by my count. They are doing well down there.

Compare it to Canada, here we have 15 GW stores total, and 33 million people.

That is pretty much the sum of it.

Per capita they are doing great in Asia/Pac, specifically Australia.
They have taken an obscure hobby that only the nerds in science class knew about and it's now a mainstream hobby in this country.

I can't comment on the stores outside my region as I haven't gone into them to compare the difference, and by the sounds of the landscape being painted there might well be one.

Sydney is a city of 5 million, have a look at how many GW stores we have in NSW servicing that 5 million.

I reckon LGS owners would be giving over their firstborn for that sort of 'failure' :p

Iphum I wonder what the gaming market is like in India. Seems like that would offer the largest English speaking population outside the US.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Remorhaz wrote:


info sent. it wouldnt be hard to miss stores in seattle. unfortunately there are only a couple left. Amazon is eating them for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I can think of a half-dozen comic stores that sell Pathfinder (including the Comic Stop nee Zanadu next to the Egyptian and The Dreaming about four blocks from there). In the city itself there's Gamma Ray Games on Capitol Hill and the new Card Kingdom in Ballard (where I live), which may be best game stores ever. There's also Gary's Games in Greenlake, long a Free RPG Day sponsor and occasional haunt of the Paizo staff.

If you're willing to go 10 minutes down 520 you've got Dragon's Lair off 148th. And if you're willing to limit yourself to only D&D and board games (I'm not), you've got even more options.

Most of these places seem to be doing pretty brisk business.

You're right, though, in that not enough of them are hosting Pathfinder Society events.


Erik, I think the Pathfinder Society stuff is rolled gold for retailers, what a great support tool handed to them on a platter - win/win.


I agree. A store manager/owner needs to encourage the volunteer reps that some companies promote to his store (the PFS, Press Gangers, Henchmen, whatever), which in turn will bring in associated players. If the locality doesn't have such a representative then the manager should become one himself.

Cheers
Mark

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Erik Mona wrote:
including the Comic Stop nee Zanadu next to the Egyptian

Urrrrr, make that The Neptune.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

To be fair I think Paizo has some more work to do on evangelizing, explaining, and implementing Pathfinder Society events in retail stores. The venture-captain volunteer coordinator effort is a big part of that, but it is still in its infancy and some regions do not yet have a coordinator.

So right now I'd say Pathfinder Society is rolled gold presented on a pewter serving tray with a few dents in it and a tiny leak, but it's a lot better than the plain brown paper bag it used to be presented in.

So we're getting there.


Sure, that's fair enough :)

On the other hand, I can't say I have seen anything like it in this country before (or if it did, no one noticed), so here it is rather new and a great opportunity that actually has some traction. PFS is in the game stores that ARE here, and is a feature of the Games Con scene.

Never happened with Paizo's competitors.


carmachu wrote:
Brian E. Harris wrote:


See, no response to an FLGS ad doesn't mean that the gamers aren't there. It just means that they're not responding.

ENworld's "Gamers Seeking Gamers" locator is another story - they're most definitively there or not there.

In my case, they're NOT there. There's a total of 5 or 6 people in a 50 mile radius of my location, and the closest one is ~25 miles away - not to mention, we're both looking to play different games.

I wish online was where it's done, but it isn't - at least, not in Oregon.

In some cases, yes there arent any gamers. Because in my experience the FLGS drove them out and away. Three times actually, in my experience, on the wargaming side. RPG side, not very helpful either(although now maybe, but since I wrote them off, who cares- I have the internet).

In my further case, FLGS around here are worse then useless. Their utter POS. Devode of any use or help. Yes thats plural in FLGS. In all my decades of RPG and wargaming, they have not only less then helpful, but actually getting in the way of gaming, as far as I can tell for me.

Very proud basement gamer.

At least here in middle of NY.(not in NYC)

I'm in the Albany area, and there are 4 game stores within easy driving distance. Foam Brain in Troy, Grimfoe in East Greenbush, and Zombie Plannet and Flights of Fantasy in Albany. If your looking for magic or comic book stores, you have alot more. Each one hosts gaming of various types multiple days a week.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

gamersgambi wrote:
we offer PFS games (though have a lot of trouble finding DMs for them)

I've sent a message to your nearest venture-captain to see if he can offer any assistance in growing your PFS group and increasing your GM pool. Hopefully we can get Pathfinder Society organized play running at full speed in short order ;-)


Quote:


Iphum I wonder what the gaming market is like in India. Seems like that would offer the largest English speaking population outside the US.

Non existent, though i think parts of indian culture make it an easier target market to penetrate (prevelance of mythology, fantasy), other parts of the culture make it a lot more difficult (RPGs are unknown, have no base, cultural issues with allocation of free time).

Dark Archive

Shifty wrote:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2008/gw_year_en d_08.pdf

OK so not the most recent, but now scroll through to see about what they think of Asia Pacific, and the Hobby stores there. Have a look at the sell rate of store v retailer.

When you are done, we can continue.

Simply put, the trends are POSITIVE here and in Asia.

Nothing anecdotal, theres the figures.

EXPANSION

You are welcome.

Well I read that one 4 YEARS AGO.

You realized you pulled up 2008's year end report right? Not 2010 end year, nor 2011's half year, right?

As I said before, you dont know what your talking about. Its not 2008 anymore.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Enough with the back and forth. One doesn't need to prove oneself right to make a contribution to the thread. Can we steer away from the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand, which began as how a particular retailer could incentivize sales in his store while competing with online distribution options? I'd much rather the thread remain helpful instead of antagonistic, even if no one's being antagonistic to the OP.

Thanks!


With due regard to Marks comment above,

2008 was not a good year for GW, However at that point they began to recover and turn the business around significantly.

If I can draw your attention to the 2010 and 2011 interim statements, you will note that the metrics for Australia are particularly good, especially when contrast against the size of consumer base in that market.

You will also note that of all the stores, only two are 'lone man' shops, with over thirty still running the 'full staff' model.

Sales are still doing well out our way, and this has been a constant, and this is despite having no real Marketing or PR activities in the mass market, and despite them having no real presence at Games Cons or the like, they are trading solidly on word of mouth and other similar strategies.

Now I can only surmise that there is some difference between what they are doing here and what they are doing overseas, but the local stores tend to display:

Staff who have a business/retail background.
Staff who are familiar with the Product (system as well as stock).
Staff who have an identifiable uniform.
VERY clean, very well maintained stores.
Located in the 'CBD' type areas.
Well laid out gaming facilities to host games.
The theme and design of all visual marketing material is consistent and high quality.
They have good merchandise, well displayed.

The way they pick and choose staff is obviously a factor in their success, but clearly the visial impact of the stores has been well considered.

I really do think there's a fair bit that can be learned from GW.

On a different tangent, I have been having a look at who is running our local Games Cons. We have a few kicking around this fair city, which is a good and great thing, yet I note that whilst these events are usually 'sponsored by' or 'in affiliation with' the links appear to be pretty tenuous at best.

Clearly the games cons make money (or people wouldn't run them) so is there an opportunity for the stores themselves to run larger scale events, where their input to the scene might be far less ambiguous (and also act as a sideline money spinner?) - I reckon PFS is almost a defacto minigamescon type activity, could that be expanded upward?

Lantern Lodge

I can't paint at sydney GW anymore because I prefer other brands of brushes and palletes, and put all my paints and mixes into dropper bottles...
I'm more than happy to travel an hour and a half to paint at Good Games in Burwood though, and always try to buy at least $20 worth of paints,drinks, munchies, and then minis on top of that (even though i can get them cheaper from overseas) because I think that the atmosphere, banter with the staff, and service are absolutely worth the extra.
That said, I get my pathfinder stuff by subscription, not because it's cheaper, or because of the free pdf, but because the customer service is the best I have ever encountered, I massively approve of the way paizo do things, and subscribing is the best way to support that.
All up I spend about the same amount each month at my FLGS and from paizo. I may be in a minority, but my dollars go to companies and stores that I can call my friends. This is why i doubt I will ever spend another cent in a games workshop store, or from amazon, etc


That's some pretty interesting further feedback Dave.

Every business has a few 'less desirable' factors (I came from senior management in retail banking) and clearly by what you are saying GW stores are very prescriptive on what customers can/cannot do, which I can understand on some level.

It's interesting the comments you make about GoodGames in Burwood, I haven't been there but the themes in your comment still reflect the staff/service/facilities - and similarly a connection you feel to their 'brand'.

What would be good to get to is a distilled version of what makes a FLGS a great retail experience that will draw in potential customers.
There are some themes coming through that are pretty straightforward, but I've just completed my latest marketing qualification, so don't need a new case study yet (I just did a breakdown of the Martial Arts industry in 'local suburbia' that was a lot of fun)


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Shifty wrote:

On a side note, I got asked by a local council if I could cobble enough gamers together to have a games day in their community spaces on some sort of regular basis... simply put there's a lot of people with room to let crying out for people to occupy the space. I was tossing up pitching an offer to a FLGS to sponsor the space and maybe have a 'bookstand' or similar, but then there's no games store within a bajillion miles of Sydneys North Shore.

Would you as a Gamer be happy to pay a couple of dollars to use a nice airconditioned conference style room with WiFi thrown in and close to all amenities and a great coffee shop next door, loads of free parking and ready public transport access?

Possibly, I already play often (on average three times a week). A group of us are coordinated under Darkwhite (Australian VC) and Al to support game days etc..

What suburb are you considering?


lastblacknight wrote:
What suburb are you considering?

The question came from a Council on the Lower North Shore, so Willoughby/Chatswood/Artarmon/Lane Cove area. As I say, it was something put to me in passing, I haven't discussed it much more with them since yet.

I lease facilities on behalf of a few not for profit groups who have premises they seek short term hires for, hence why I was asked if I knew of possible uses for similar Council facilities.


Mark Moreland wrote:

Enough with the back and forth. One doesn't need to prove oneself right to make a contribution to the thread. Can we steer away from the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand, which began as how a particular retailer could incentivize sales in his store while competing with online distribution options? I'd much rather the thread remain helpful instead of antagonistic, even if no one's being antagonistic to the OP.

Thanks!

Throw in one of the $10 Paizo products with each hardback purchase. It gives a bonus to purchase locally, only costs the retailer the wholesale on a fairly cheap product (meaning the retailer is out of pocked something like 10% of hardcover sale price) and gets people hooked.


The Forgotten wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:

Enough with the back and forth. One doesn't need to prove oneself right to make a contribution to the thread. Can we steer away from the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand, which began as how a particular retailer could incentivize sales in his store while competing with online distribution options? I'd much rather the thread remain helpful instead of antagonistic, even if no one's being antagonistic to the OP.

Thanks!

Throw in one of the $10 Paizo products with each hardback purchase. It gives a bonus to purchase locally, only costs the retailer the wholesale on a fairly cheap product (meaning the retailer is out of pocked something like 10% of hardcover sale price) and gets people hooked.

I really like this idea. It lets the buyer know that there is a whole line of support produts they might be interested in and ammounts to roughly 10% off for the retailer. Getting a player invested in the product is worth much more than $5.

One of the problems I have heard with game stores is you only get a customer once. Any customer only needs 1 core rule book or copy of any game, and most players will only play so many games. New product is what keeps people coming back, but everyone has a saturation point where they have enough.


Dragnmoon wrote:
Really there is nothing a FLGS can do short of matching Amazon prices or Book/PDF bundles to get the business of a purchaser like myself.

I don't mean for this to soudn antagonistic, just trying to offer a different point of view.

Why ordering on-line, regardless of price, PDF/Book bundling, and free shipping - quite frankly sucks:

I have yet to have Amazon not have an issue where what I order gets lost or misplaced during shipping.

Too often, shipped items get damaged.

No face to face interaction when there is a problem.

PDF format is great for on-line gaming, however as a dinosaur that does not allow digital media at gaming tables I run, PDFs are pointless. Yes, I still have tons of dead-tree material at my table and will keep it that way. My loathing of PDFs is further demonstrated by my willingness to spend money to purchase ink, paper, sheet protrectors, and binders to print PDFs I am given, just so I can HAVE a dead-tree copy - The PDF gets deleted shortly thereafter. YES, I AM WIERD.

All in all, I am not a fan of mail/internet order sales. Call me a curmudgeon or stupid or not savvy with my finances, as well as my gaming group - we'd much rather be able to physically VISIT a store and spend our money than point and click and add something to our digital cart to make a purchase. I personally value face to face interaction, it's why I am not a fan of MMO games or XBOX Live or any game in which the other gamers are not sitting in the same room with me.

On a side note. Another issue I have with internet sales, is that Billions are spent on-line every year, yet no SALES TAX. The presence of a physical store in your home state as being the only requirement to enforce sales tax is complete horse dung. No slaes tax on-line is something else that puts a burden on the seller which ends up getting passed along to regular shoppers. TAX it and be done. Then see how much gets evened out. It won't stop internet sales, but it will help equalize things between digital stores and physical ones.


Gendo wrote:


Why ordering on-line, regardless of price, PDF/Book bundling, and free shipping - quite frankly sucks:

I have yet to have Amazon not have an issue where what I order gets lost or misplaced during shipping.

Too often, shipped items get damaged.

My experience with online orders has been the exact opposite. I've received a monthly order from Paizo since the first adventure path and several years of Dungeon and Dragon magazine prior to that. Combined with dozens of individual book/minature orders from Amazon, Ebay, and other gaming sellers, I've had only a handful of orders ever go missing or show up damaged. In every case, I had no issues with obtaining a replacement order. Paizo has been the absolute best about this, which is why I have zero concern with receiving all of my Pathfinder books directly from them through the mail.

I can understand that some people don't like to order without first being able to look at their purchase, or don't care about PDF's. Those are individual preferences. But I can't agree that ordering on-line is a poor option because of the occasional lost or damaged orders.


Wasteland Knight wrote:
Gendo wrote:


Why ordering on-line, regardless of price, PDF/Book bundling, and free shipping - quite frankly sucks:

I have yet to have Amazon not have an issue where what I order gets lost or misplaced during shipping.

Too often, shipped items get damaged.

My experience with online orders has been the exact opposite. I've received a monthly order from Paizo since the first adventure path and several years of Dungeon and Dragon magazine prior to that. Combined with dozens of individual book/minature orders from Amazon, Ebay, and other gaming sellers, I've had only a handful of orders ever go missing or show up damaged. In every case, I had no issues with obtaining a replacement order. Paizo has been the absolute best about this, which is why I have zero concern with receiving all of my Pathfinder books directly from them through the mail.

I can understand that some people don't like to order without first being able to look at their purchase, or don't care about PDF's. Those are individual preferences. But I can't agree that ordering on-line is a poor option because of the occasional lost or damaged orders.

Agreed on that last part, especially when I have brought books FROM TH LGS that have been dinged up or damaged as well.

Look to each thier own, but I've been ordering from Amazon for at least 10 years and have yet to have them lose a package on me. I've been a AP subscriber since the beginning and an RPG subscriber since the Core rulebook and have yet to recieve a damaged book have had to fuss over a lost package or shipment.

I'm a Gm who travels to his game and you know what? Lugging the Core Rulebook ALONE was getting old. FAST. not to mention lugging the Bestiary, the APG and occasionally the GMG (for the ready made NPC's of course) to the game. now I pretty much have all of my Paizo Purchases on my iPad, which is MUCh lighter than the actual books. in fact my last few sessions have pretty much been run from my iPad using a combination of GoodReader, Pages and the PFSRD app.

I still bring printed maps, mini's (both paper standees and actual plastic/metal ones) and cards (oh do we love the Crit/Fumble decks. Although I wont be picking ip iCrit and iFumble. Sorry guys we just like actually drawing the cards...)to my games but even wth that stuff it's still a million times lighter than deada trees.

Also easier to prep for a game using electronic materials. Instead of hand copying stuff, it's a matter of cut and paste. need to show the players what an NPC looks like? Cut and paste the picture into a separate document and when needed just show it to the players.

My FLGS (the Compleat Strategist) is pretty good when it comes to selection and ordering things for thier customers. While I really dont buy books from them anymore, my 5 players DO. They also buy dice, mini's and other things from them as well. Right now we're trying to find somewhere else more convinent to play becasue it's hard running a campaign like COTCT with a full room of mini's gamers and other RPG's going on around you.

If the Strat discounted more I'd definintely consider buying more from them. Back in the early 2000's between D&D 3rd Ed, HERO System and Warhammer 40K I spent probably hundreds of dollars a month in there. Once I found out I could get some of the same stuff cheaper on Amazon and other places (like the Warstore)? and at the time there was no sales tax (that has since been changed) I would just buy from Amazon instead. At the time there was no space to play games at the Strat so why would I pay more there? Out of the kindness of my heart? The place is located in midtown manhattan which is not my neighborhood. All I'm doing is helping them pay thier way over priced rent.

I'll buy the occaisonal Paizo card deck or mini from them becasue I run a game there, but as soon as I dnt have too I wont. It's a good store in terms of selection as I said before. But there's nothing there that I couldnt find elsewhere for cheaper on-line. If it were one of these mythic AWESOME well lit gamestores that I hear about in other parts of the country I'd probably be supporting the HELL out of it. But the owner of the Strat had to be cajoled into opening up the gaming space in his basement. In fact the local wargaming group were the ones who cleaned it and fixed it upon the promise that they can run games there. If they hadnt lost thier space at the now defunct Neutral Ground, that basement would STILL probably be unusable as a game space.


I'm afraid my LGS has essentially lost me as a consistent customer. Although I may still occasionally purchase gaming supplies (dice, map packs etc...), their prices just can't compete with Amazon.

On top of that, the store recently underwent something of a revolution in philosophy. Before, I could come in on any day and find the usual crowd, a few people playing warhammer, a table full of Magic players, even a group playing some version of D&D at the back table. But then, the owner, in a ill-advised attempt to consolidate his revenue streams and encourage people to purchase more instead of just hanging around (a legitimate concern) has organized all the various forms of gaming into a very strict and limited schedule. i.e. If it is not Wednesday night, which is the D&D encounters night, then you are not using the gaming tables for playing D&D. If it is not Sunday afternoon, then you are not playing Warhammer fantasy there.

While I understand his frustration at the typical LGS loitering, I'm of the opinion that the first function of the store is helping to foster that local gaming community. I myself loved hanging out there a couple of times a week, and while I couldn't always buy something, I usually tried to at least pick up a pack of magic cards or a pack of dice or something. Plus, my constant presence allowed me to browse a lot, and led to me deciding to purchase things, even if I had to save up a week for it and come back.

tldr; My lgs has lost all sense of community. It's basically a ghost shop 80% of the time now and it makes me sad...

Dark Archive

Wasteland Knight wrote:


My experience with online orders has been the exact opposite. I've received a monthly order from Paizo since the first adventure path and several years of Dungeon and Dragon magazine prior to that. Combined with dozens of individual book/minature orders from Amazon, Ebay, and other gaming sellers, I've had only a handful of orders ever go missing or show up damaged. In every case, I had no issues with obtaining a replacement order. Paizo has been the absolute best about this, which is why I have zero concern with receiving all of my Pathfinder books directly from them through the mail.

With the exception of amazon, since I dont use them, mine is the same as yours. Nothing but good things, rarely, if ever, something gets lost(only so far frog god games, and he's replaced anything gone into the void). Good communication with whoever, whether trading board, ebay, gaming sites, paizo, chaos orc, miniature market.....

Its been easy and painless.

Liberty's Edge

Sadly, our FLGS just closed its doors. Among the varied reasons for closing the doors was the feeling of "competing with Paizo" for the same customer base. The discounts offered elsewhere (not just from paizo directly, but from major book sellers and Amazon) led to an unfortunate down-slide in Pathfinder sales, which had been a tremendous product in terms of sales numbers. Don't get me wrong; it was far from the only reason... but it was a contributing factor. Not that I think they are, but this is something that can't be ignored by Paizo.

I am currently looking for another venue to host PFS, but having very little luck, since the nearest game store is now a 45-55 minute drive. I tried with our local library and was told we don't meet the criteria to use the community rooms. I welcome any suggestions.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Arnim Thayer wrote:
Sadly, our FLGS just closed its doors. Among the varied reasons for closing the doors was the feeling of "competing with Paizo" for the same customer base. The discounts offered elsewhere (not just from paizo directly, but from major book sellers and Amazon) led to an unfortunate down-slide in Pathfinder sales, which had been a tremendous product in terms of sales numbers. Don't get me wrong; it was far from the only reason... but it was a contributing factor. Not that I think they are, but this is something that can't be ignored by Paizo.

I remember your store owner going ballistic on theses boards about that, I do not agree with him, but I still remember that.

Edit: What town/State do you live in and what is your average player count?

Liberty's Edge

Dragnmoon wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
Sadly, our FLGS just closed its doors. Among the varied reasons for closing the doors was the feeling of "competing with Paizo" for the same customer base. The discounts offered elsewhere (not just from paizo directly, but from major book sellers and Amazon) led to an unfortunate down-slide in Pathfinder sales, which had been a tremendous product in terms of sales numbers. Don't get me wrong; it was far from the only reason... but it was a contributing factor. Not that I think they are, but this is something that can't be ignored by Paizo.

I remember your store owner going ballistic on theses boards about that, I do not agree with him, but I still remember that.

Edit: What town/State do you live in and what is your average player count?

We are based out of Cape Girardeau, Missouri with a current player count of 43 players. Out of our FLGS, we regularly seated a minimum of two tables per slots, two slots per day, every other Saturday... not counting the outlier events like local conventions. We have a very good showing at Cape Comic Con this year (thanks, Jason Roeder!) with a minimum of 35 players per slot and a maximum of 42, not counting GMS. Full tables of seven for most of them, with a pick-up table of brand new players filtering in for We Be Goblins and Masters of the Fallen Fortress at least twice through the weekend.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Arnim Thayer wrote:
We are based out of Cape Girardeau, Missouri with a current player count of 43 players. Out of our FLGS, we regularly seated a minimum of two tables per slots, two slots per day, every other Saturday... not counting the outlier events like local conventions. We have a very good showing at Cape Comic Con this year (thanks, Jason Roeder!) with a minimum of 35 players per slot and a maximum of 42, not counting GMS. Full tables of seven for most of them, with a pick-up table of brand new players filtering in for We Be Goblins and Masters of the Fallen Fortress at least twice through the weekend.

What is sad is that you have more players then me, in an location that has about 2 million less people near by then me.

I have at the Max 17 current players in a City with a Metro Population of 2,142,508, you have 43 (really 43!?) with a Metro Population of 134,051. What the hell!!! ;)

Researching your options, If I come up with something will post it here.

Edit: Any of your players attending Southeast Missouri State University or know gamers that Attend Southeast Missouri State University? Gaming Clubs can get space at Universities sometimes.

Liberty's Edge

Brian, I've been neglecting my duty as an Oregonian gamer. I'll check out Gamer Connection. But outside Corvallis is difficult.

Edit: Not coming up with a search?


Irontruth wrote:


The problem with this attitude though is that our hobby is small and is not leaning towards growth. If people decide all they care about is cheaper books, the hobby will continue to contract, fewer books will be published, meaning the hobby contracts more until all that remains is a hobby, with no business.

Well, the thing is, a lot of people aren't deciding anything. For them, it's "all I can afford is cheaper books". The problem is that their purses are small. They can't afford to pay more for a product.

Irontruth wrote:


Gaming is about hanging out with people and interacting. You don't do that at normal retail stores.

I don't really do that at any store. Gaming is about hanging out with friends, not clerks. While a store where they know about the hobby is nice, in the end, it's all about quality time with friends.

Irontruth wrote:
You don't go to Wal-mart or Amazon and ask people about they're favorite activities, or watch them.

I do go to Amazon and read what people think about the products (and, in the case of Marketplace deals, the seller).

Irontruth wrote:


There's more at stake here than just the price of books.

I don't agree that the stores are needed. After all, I don't have a store within 30 kilometers or so (and even those aren't that great), and I still get my fix. I still play in two different groups.

I'm convinced that the hobby would be able to manage without retail stores.

I don't say they should go away. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be put on the protected list, either. Those who adapt will probably survive (maybe not forever - maybe there will come a day when all shopping will be done online), those who don't will fail. That's as it should be.

I'm hearing many "success stories" on the boards, like what Drogon posted up there. It seems that if the stores don't complain about what they don' have but work with what they have, and try to put the F into FLGS, they'll strive.

Conversely, I've heard/red enough "horror stories" on the boards, on other boards, from friends and so on to know that some stores deserve to fail. One of the stores around here isn't that stellar - though still better than some of those I hear about. The store does have prices that are significantly higher than what Paizo or Amazon can offer (and in the case of Paizo, the 15% advantage is off-set by the intercontinental shipping and the Damocles sword that is customs).


Berik wrote:


After moving to London I visited one of the local game stores here.

You're talking about this now? Where were you a few weeks ago? ;-P

I was in London last week. I must admit I didn't prepare properly (well, at least not in the FLGS department). I did get one address that was only a few minutes away from our hotel, but I couldn't find the store - I think it had been gone for years.


Gendo wrote:


I have yet to have Amazon not have an issue where what I order gets lost or misplaced during shipping.

I don't know which Amazon you're dealing with, but I'm regularly ordering stuff from amazon.de (and sometimes from amazon.co.uk), and I have no complaints. Their delivery is so fast it borders on witchcraft, and the only damaged product I can remember was the cell phone I bought my god-daughter for Christmas. The SD slot didn't work, and I don't think amazon.de or the postal service was to blame.

Still, I went to the website, said I wanted to return the phone (/have it replaced) because it was broken. I got shipping labels for the free-of-charge return, and the replacement was there a couple of days later (literally - I think it was two days).

Gendo wrote:


Too often, shipped items get damaged.

I had that with Paizo shipments. dented corners. I didn't complain (not that big a deal), and they took steps to prevent it.

Gendo wrote:


PDF format is great for on-line gaming, however as a dinosaur that does not allow digital media at gaming tables I run, PDFs are pointless.

In our games, the players don't use PCs, either. One guy has a tablet computer, but that's it. However, the GM usually uses a laptop at the table (with an extra monitor to display the maps - with MapTool, you can even conceal/reveal the stuff they have seen), and PDFs are very useful then (combined with the PRD page). Combine that with session preparation and character generation, and they're not just not pointless, but indispensable!

It's definitely a way to have my whole Paizo library with me when I run the game outside my own house.

Not that I don't want the print versions - far from it. When reading through a book, I will accept nothing but a print version. And an essential basis of books will travel with me when I go to run the game somewhere else - the adventure module, the Core Rulebook, the Bestiaries, and essential Splat and setting material.

I'll answer the question "What is better - Print or PDF" with a resounding "BOTH!"

This is a situation where I can have my pie and eat it, too!

Gendo wrote:


All in all, I am not a fan of mail/internet order sales. Call me a curmudgeon or stupid or not savvy with my finances, as well as my gaming group - we'd much rather be able to physically VISIT a store and spend our money than point and click and add something to our digital cart to make a purchase.

That's a nice sentiment as long as you're able to get the stuff somewhere.

Gendo wrote:


On a side note. Another issue I have with internet sales, is that Billions are spent on-line every year, yet no SALES TAX. The presence of a physical store in your home state as being the only requirement to enforce sales tax is complete horse dung. No slaes tax on-line is something else that puts a burden on the seller which ends up getting passed along to regular shoppers. TAX it and be done. Then see how much gets evened out. It won't stop internet sales, but it will help equalize things between digital stores and physical ones.

That's none of my concern. Where I live, there is no difference between retail and online shopping - you pay the same taxes either way. Online shopping will still kick retail's backside a lot of the time.


Erik Mona wrote:
Remorhaz wrote:


info sent. it wouldnt be hard to miss stores in seattle. unfortunately there are only a couple left. Amazon is eating them for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I can think of a half-dozen comic stores that sell Pathfinder (including the Comic Stop nee Zanadu next to the Egyptian and The Dreaming about four blocks from there). In the city itself there's Gamma Ray Games on Capitol Hill and the new Card Kingdom in Ballard (where I live), which may be best game stores ever. There's also Gary's Games in Greenlake, long a Free RPG Day sponsor and occasional haunt of the Paizo staff.

If you're willing to go 10 minutes down 520 you've got Dragon's Lair off 148th. And if you're willing to limit yourself to only D&D and board games (I'm not), you've got even more options.

Most of these places seem to be doing pretty brisk business.

You're right, though, in that not enough of them are hosting Pathfinder Society events.

i hit gary's once a month and dreaming bi-weekly. i've heard card kingdom is awesome but i havent gone yet. i have purchased all my pathfinder stuff at both those stores but its pretty hard for me to continue to ignore the considerable discount i could have buying from amazon if the stores don't provide me with something other than the warm fuzzy feeling i get from support local business. Conversely if i owned the FLGS why would i run a pathfinder events if people are just buying the books from amazon and playing in my store ?

As a store owner I would only run a pathfinder event if Paizo helped me generate interest in their game and provided support. That could mean books with alternate cover art, promotional minis, battlemats,crit decks or dice that players could win or earn by attending pathfinder events. It could mean an appearance by a venture captain on a monthly basis to run a society adventure or it could just be a package of materials that paizo provides to get a store employee running society events.

i say all this suspecting full well you guys probably have some stuff planned to coincide with the release of the beginner box set at the end of the year. i just thought it was odd that pathfinder events seemed scarce in seattle of all places :)

-remorhaz


Remorhaz wrote:
As a store owner I would only run a pathfinder event if Paizo helped me generate interest in their game and provided support.

Can I just ask why its Paizo's responsibility to help you generate business to stay in business?

Isn't your job to attract potential customers into your stores and then put yourself in a position to sell to them?

Do many of you guys actually work in retail or...?

Grand Lodge

The LGS closest to me here in Orlando doesn't stock a lot of Paizo stuff. The two times I went there specifically purchase new Pathfinder stuffs they didn't have what I was looking for and couldn't tell me when they'd get it. I've never been one to just hang out at the game store. I know what I want and I go looking for it specifically. If you have it there's a good chance I'll buy something else while I'm at it. If you don't have it then I'm probably just gonna leave without buying anything.

In a perfect world I would have no problem paying full price for the pdf from Paizo and paying retail at the LGS. I can't do that if it isn't stocked.

I haven't had a steady gaming group in years. I'd love to jump in on some organized games but i haven't had time to research them and/or find time to play.

SM


KaeYoss wrote:


I'm convinced that the hobby would be able to manage without retail stores.

There are several posts after the one you quoted. Basically I just had this discussion with someone else.


Remorhaz wrote:

hit gary's once a month and dreaming bi-weekly. i've heard card kingdom is awesome but i havent gone yet. i have purchased all my pathfinder stuff at both those stores but its pretty hard for me to continue to ignore the considerable discount i could have buying from amazon if the stores don't provide me with something other than the warm fuzzy feeling i get from support local business. Conversely if i owned the FLGS why would i run a pathfinder events if people are just buying the books from amazon and playing in my store ?

As a store owner I would only run a pathfinder event if Paizo helped me generate interest in their game and provided support. That could mean books with alternate cover art, promotional minis, battlemats,crit decks or dice that players could win or earn by attending pathfinder events. It could mean an appearance by a venture captain on a monthly basis to run a society adventure or it could just be a package of materials that paizo provides to get a store employee running society events.

i say all this suspecting full well you guys probably have some stuff planned to coincide with the release of the beginner box set at the end of the year. i just thought it was odd that pathfinder events seemed scarce in seattle of all places :)

-remorhaz

Why would you not want to attract potential customers to your store? Sure, not all of those people are buying their pathfinder product from you. But if you never get them in your store they never will be. A free event costs you next to nothing (mostly opportunity costs). If it generates 1 sale, even if it is unrelated to the main product, that event just turned a proffit. If it convinces 1 person to come to your store and buy something who normally wouldn't have, it has more than paid for itself. Generating foot traffic is the most important part of running the store. If you can't do that, no one will be coming by to make impulse purchases. Just because they aren't doing their pre-orders through you doesn't mean they wont be interested in some other random product you sell. Most gamers I know are interested in a wide range of different games.

Just because they are getting pathfinder from amazon doesn't mean they wont see that Dresden Files RPG on the shelf that they didn't know existed and pick it up. Or the latest expansion to Arkham Horror. Or a box of dice. Or they may hear about your Warhammer night and start coming to that, perhaps picking up a few minis along the way. What you need to do is have events that get people into your store, and then incentives for them to spend money there instead of some place else. Without these, the store will never survive.


I'll suggest that a really sweet electronic tabletop for gaming might be a draw as well.


You know what would be an awesome draw for me and my group, that will never actually happen?

If our FLGS got a liquor license for their basement gaming space and sold beer.

I am realistic enough to know that, at least in Ontario, this opens up a WORLD of problems and difficulties for a store owner. But it's still a hell of a potential revenue stream!


Feegle wrote:

You know what would be an awesome draw for me and my group, that will never actually happen?

If our FLGS got a liquor license for their basement gaming space and sold beer.

I am realistic enough to know that, at least in Ontario, this opens up a WORLD of problems and difficulties for a store owner. But it's still a hell of a potential revenue stream!

Damn.

I'd be in.

Plus, think of all the replacement copies you'd sell from the spills!


Feegle wrote:

You know what would be an awesome draw for me and my group, that will never actually happen?

If our FLGS got a liquor license for their basement gaming space and sold beer.

I am realistic enough to know that, at least in Ontario, this opens up a WORLD of problems and difficulties for a store owner. But it's still a hell of a potential revenue stream!

My friend recently opened up a new LGS next to a pub. We told him he needs to tear a hole through the wall. I know lots of people who would love to see this type of thing.


Caineach wrote:
Feegle wrote:

You know what would be an awesome draw for me and my group, that will never actually happen?

If our FLGS got a liquor license for their basement gaming space and sold beer.

I am realistic enough to know that, at least in Ontario, this opens up a WORLD of problems and difficulties for a store owner. But it's still a hell of a potential revenue stream!

My friend recently opened up a new LGS next to a pub. We told him he needs to tear a hole through the wall. I know lots of people who would love to see this type of thing.

It's kind of funny, because once someone points it out it seems so obvious, right? But those movie theatres where you can get a beer seem to really hit a niche market, and they seem to do pretty well. I wonder what the profit margin on a bottle of beer is?

I think the largest problem with this idea is actually the fact that most licensed places in Ontario can't allow minors (under 19s here) into the licensed areas, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

I suspect the largest perceived problem with this idea is the same thing that has been brought up a few times in this thread - owners of brick and mortar stores - not just LGS - who want to compete with alternate retail models like the internet have to step out of the 1990s (or 1950s!) mentality of retail ownership. If you can't offer prices lower than internet retailers, then find some other way to stand out. Many customers these days choose to go to a physical store for the experience of being in that store, rather than for the low prices. Those that don't aren't going to be convinced no matter what you do.

Frankly, and I apologize in advance if the following paragraph offends retail owners that might be perusing this thread, there seems to be an awful lot of "These newfangled internet businesses are ruining my store! Rar!" It reminds me of the music industry in the late 90s. Change with the times, and adapt your business. If you try to keep working within a model that doesn't work, you've no one to blame but yourself when your business fails.

Dark Archive

psionichamster wrote:

Wow. I just checked the retail locator & PFS event listing.

There is not a single place listed in the whole of Connecticut.

Sad.

Hmm... wonder why the below shops aren't showing up. They all sell PFRPG and I know the ConnectiCon PFS crew hold events at all three fairly regularly, since I get the invites whenever one happens:

Sarge's Comics

The Citadel

The Time Machine

We're trying to get into The Battle Standard, but it's pretty miniature centric and doesn't seem too interested in RPG's.

Contributor

Somebody did that recently in Ballard - read about it here.


Liz Courts wrote:
Somebody did that recently in Ballard - read about it here.

See? Now that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.


Everett, Wa has the AFK Tavern which is a gamer diner with a bar. I've only been there once and they were still getting their place up and running. They do serve alcohol for gamers.


Damn. I thought me and my wife had an original idea. We eventually want to open a FLGS/pizza parlor. Of course, we'd try and get a liquor license as well. Oh well. Still a good idea. And it's a dream anyways. Got a LONG ways to go before we can seriously think about it.


Guardian Games in Portland, OR got their liquor license, and was doing beer & pizza nights prior to remodeling. Dunno if they've started it back up again or not...


Liz Courts wrote:
Somebody did that recently in Ballard - read about it here.

I bet they dont sit there moaning about how Amazon is killing them, how Paizo owes them a living, and how they don't want customers loitering in their stores...


Shifty wrote:
Remorhaz wrote:
As a store owner I would only run a pathfinder event if Paizo helped me generate interest in their game and provided support.

Can I just ask why its Paizo's responsibility to help you generate business to stay in business?

Isn't your job to attract potential customers into your stores and then put yourself in a position to sell to them?

Do many of you guys actually work in retail or...?

i dont work in retail at all but i think its in paizo's best interest to offer support. If you owned a gaming store would you run a pathfinder event with no support or a 4E/magic event with wizards spoon feeding you formats, prizes and promos ?

tabletop roleplaying is a niche hobby and if i were publishing books that catered to a niche i would want to dominate that niche. i would want to give brick and mortar outlets selling my products no choice but to put my product on the top shelf and keep that shelf fully stocked.i would make sure the people in that store were playing my products at the gaming tables by providing format and prize support and letting the store owner know if he took care of me i'd take care of him.

now the question of if a brick and mortar gaming and comic store is a viable business at all is an entirely different matter. they do still exist and in my opinion are invaluable for promoting the hobby.

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