I've gotten a few expanding class options for the sorcerer, witch, and oracle. Haven't had a chance to use them yet, as I haven't had a chance to really play any of those classes more than once yet, so the options in the book were sufficient for existing characters but I can see how someone could easily make good use of them after running the same type of character multiple times.
I love good 3PP. Kobold Quarterly/Open Design, Rite Publishing, and Super Genius Games are some of my favorites.
I for one would by a set of epic/ascension rules if a 3PP took up the challenge.
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I LOVE 3rd party support... and have since the beginning. I'm all for using them in every possible context. I haven't made a PC YET without the use of 4 Winds Fantasy Games' Book of Arcane Magic, for instance. Stuff like the Book of Monster Templates and Forgotten Foes really add valuable options to the game, and Tripod Machine's Fistful of Denarii is a standard resource for all my NPC creation needs and half of the players at my table lift from it as well. So count me as a big booster... 3rd party publishers are a lot more likely to hit the esoteric and specialty areas that I'm excited by the most than even Paizo itself is, and the quality of most of what I have is on the same scale as they are.
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I love it. Paizo has created a great atmosphere for 3rd party products and the 3pps have responded in kind. Super Genius Games, Rite Publishing, 4 Winds Fantasy gaming, and Dreamscarred press all see regular use at my table.
I dont feel the trepidation I once did with 3rd party material, and the slower pace of paizo's releases has left more room for the smaller and more agile 3PPs to fill niche roles. Really pathfinder has broken me completely of the 'official' rule concept. Any piece of content, whether from paizo, 3.5, a 3rd party, or house rules should be judged on the same merits for your game, and that is what I do.
As it stands a ton of 3rd party material see's use at my table, and in the pathfinder game I am playing in. We have been playing some incarnation of this ruleset for a very very long time, so new ideas and options is always a good thing in my opinion. Those of us that crave the cool new thing can seek out other publishers that fill our cravings, while paizo can focus on their bigger and less frequent books.
As for Society play, I cant really speak to that as I dont touch organized play. There is a need to keep things contained so it isn't a nightmare for DMs in pathfinder society, where a normal dm in a normal game can easily adjust to new material. Though I have seen at least a couple requests from SGG fans wishing they could use their material in society play.
As a Pathfinder subscriber, I get all the material I can read and more.
I'm beginning to feel the rule bloat, but I really enjoy the flavor and fluff of all the Pathfinder lines.
I will pick up a few 3rd party products if they grab my interest, such as the Free Port Companion and Tome of Horrors, but I tend to stay away from the short option/crunch books. Refer back to bloat.
The 3rd party Kingdom Building guide captured my attention, has been getting good reviews. Best of all it expands on material that does not suffer in anyway from bloat and will likely be my next 3rd party purchase.
As a Pathfinder subscriber, I get all the material I can read and more.
I'm beginning to feel the rule bloat, but I really enjoy the flavor and fluff of all the Pathfinder lines.
I will pick up a few 3rd party products if they grab my interest, such as the Free Port Companion and Tome of Horrors, but I tend to stay away from the short option/crunch books. Refer back to bloat.
The 3rd party Kingdom Building guide captured my attention, has been getting good reviews. Best of all it expands on material that does not suffer in anyway from bloat and will likely be my next 3rd party purchase.
I think that is the biggest plus of the current 3rd party model for pathfinder. The products are small and easily digested, so those that want an influx of crunch can buy up a bunch, and those only looking for specific stuff can cherry pick. It is a big difference from when 3PP was often almost always as big as 1st party books.
The 3rd party Kingdom Building guide captured my attention, has been getting good reviews. Best of all it expands on material that does not suffer in anyway from bloat and will likely be my next 3rd party purchase.
Yea I keep hearing good things about that book. If you get it, please share what you think. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
;)
Seriously though, I'm really conscious about rules bloat as well. We prefer to focus on specific themes like the faith of particular characters or campaign/setting specific material.
I am not a fan of 3PP crunch and would not allow it in my game.
I am not a fan of 3PP crunch and would not allow it in my game.
Why?
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I think you do your game a dis-sevice by not at least checking out the Pathfinder Third Party Companies, at least the major ones.
Each one needs to be evaluated on its own merrits, but I can say that the ones I have had the priviledge of working with repeatedly are every bit as concerned with balance, playability, quality etc as the good folks at Paizo.
I would absolutely give companies like Kobold Quarterly, Super Genius Games, Rite Publishing, Raging Swan, Jon Brazer Enterprises etc a serious look
I really like 3PP support for GM materials. I'll buy up the gazeteers, the adventures, and monster books. In particular, I'll single out Open Design as a *great* publisher that I think I'll be getting a lot more from in the years to come.
However, I find myself shying away from 3PP material for PCs. It's too many rules, too much bloat, and opens the door to players finding some weird synergy that blows up mid-game. If a player is really passionate about taking on a certain 3PP "whole hog" (ie not just cherry picking the one broken feat, but fully taking on all the class options and concepts therein) then I'll usually allow it after review.
However, I find myself shying away from 3PP material for PCs. It's too many rules, too much bloat, and opens the door to players finding some weird synergy that blows up mid-game. If a player is really passionate about taking on a certain 3PP "whole hog" (ie not just cherry picking the one broken feat, but fully taking on all the class options and concepts therein) then I'll usually allow it after review.
I would recommend taking a look at super genius' base class line. They are a great way to allow new material into your game without the cherry picking that can sometimes lead to balance problems. In fact owen and company are superb at frustrating my inner muchkin. Its a relatively short, and self contained set of rules that can be used to spice up your available player options.
I would recommend taking a look at super genius' base class line. They are a great way to allow new material into your game without the cherry picking that can sometimes lead to balance problems. In fact owen and company are superb at frustrating my inner muchkin. Its a relatively short, and self contained set of rules that can be used to spice up your available player options.
However, I find myself shying away from 3PP material for PCs. It's too many rules, too much bloat, and opens the door to players finding some weird synergy that blows up mid-game. If a player is really passionate about taking on a certain 3PP "whole hog" (ie not just cherry picking the one broken feat, but fully taking on all the class options and concepts therein) then I'll usually allow it after review.
Also, Owen is credited in UM as a Designer. If that doesn't lend credence to the way his stuff interacts with Paizo, I don't know what will.
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I like them for the same reason I liked them in 3.x. options they give a lot more options. You can buy what you want and then pick and choose from each PDF on what you want to allow in your games. Lets you customize your game a bit more. Want more feats, there is choices. Want more spells? You have choices. Want a class like the main character in Prince of Persia? There is a PDF for that. Etc.
The big advantage this time is the avg quality is much higher than it was in 3.x and the few that have put out bad products tend to disappear rather quickly. While the rest steadily get better. Of course my views are fairly obvious all one would have to do is check out my reviews.
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My friends and I like it so much we're about to bring our own stuff to the table.
And i must say it's unlike anything else out there.
I love the *idea* of 3rd party support and have always loved the open game license that makes it possible. BUT I always approach it with caution, as there is a large amount of 3rd party publishing that is poorly written or designed.
The worst offender that I've come across is Adamant Entertainment's Artificer class which, by all appearances, wasn't playtested even once before its release and needed significant rewrites to make it playable (let alone balanced). Other products like Super Genius Games' Dragonrider class have some major issues (some balance, some of flavor - why is the red dragon's breath weapon a line? Why doesn't it have cold vulnerability?)
That doesn't mean all 3rd party material is bad, however. I like the flavor of Super Genius Games' Death Mage, for instance, and wouldn't mind trying it out in the future. I use and allow 3rd party material the same way I use converted 3.5 material or homebrew: on a case by case basis.
I remember reading that the Tome of Secrets was released the same day that the Core Rulebook was released. Take from that what you will, but I wasn't too happy with that purchase.
Also, Owen is credited in UM as a Designer. If that doesn't lend credence to the way his stuff interacts with Paizo, I don't know what will.
As well as Advanced Player's Guide, Bestiary 2, Guide to Absalom, Campaign Guide, Inner Sea World Guide, Gnomes of Golarion, Escape from Old Korvosa.. I'm sure I missed some.
Clearly, Owen is a designer who is trusted by Paizo to get it right.
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Third party Pathfinder support is an excellent thing. The fact that it isn't authorized for PFS play doesn't bother me, because I don't play in Society games. I just game. Since I have my own home-brewed world, I welcome fresh ideas from other people, because a lot of Golarion flavor, however cool, just doesn't fit in my Wounded Earth campaign. I like having a lot of options.
I am more inclined to allow 3rd party support in pathfinder, because the quality in eneral is alot better than it was in 3.x, Still the rules and balance issues are a bit off and require some GM allowances and modification typically, which personally I do not mind doing if the material is compelling
Mostly I use it as GM inspiration at the moment but not adverse to allowing bits and pieces into my campaign as player options, Dream Scarred Press seems pretty solid, kobold quarterly, 4 winds and SGG seem to put out decent work, usually I do not consider buying till I read some reviews though, thank you for that by the way Dark Mistress and other regular reviewers as well ofcourse
Third party Pathfinder support is an excellent thing. The fact that it isn't authorized for PFS play doesn't bother me, because I don't play in Society games. I just game. Since I have my own home-brewed world, I welcome fresh ideas from other people, because a lot of Golarion flavor, however cool, just doesn't fit in my Wounded Earth campaign. I like having a lot of options.
This!
Though I also read that Owen from SGG suggested Paizo do a "Year's Best Third-Party Support" book, taking the 3pp they thought was balanced, republishing it, and making the stuff from that book Society-legal.
I'd love to see that, just because I cant go through *all* the 3pp, and I hate to be missing something really good.
I'm glad that Paizo supports it and I've read some really great 3PP stuff but from the player's side of things, we don't touch it.
I remember reading some great Dragon magazine articles but after 50+ issues, no one could rememeber which one had that Houdini PrC in it (for example). Feats/Skills/Spells get spread out over so many sources that character creation takes 10 times longer just to flip through everything to find what you were looking for (and even worse when you found it and realised it didn't quite do what you thought it did and so back to square one).
For the GM side of things its much better though I still prefer fewer big products to lots of little ones. You can never have too many monsters but it's still annoying to flip through book after book after book trying to remember where the Exzubarco Beast is listed.
Also, I just don't have the time that I used to and it gets harder and harder to justify spending the time and money looking through tons of sites/product to find something that may or may not be useful.
@Dale: What's the difference between the Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building and the Exploration and Kindom building books?
SJ
Love it! I think the 3PP support for PRPG is second to none, especially the "big ones" like Rite Pub., SGGs, and Open D. I have no problem allowing the PC options in my games, because the quality and passion is quite high.
@Dale: What's the difference between the Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building and the Exploration and Kindom building books?
The Complete Players Reference for Kingdom Building contains:
Exploration and Kingdom Building,Mass Combat, and
Feats, Spell, and Secret Societies.
Plus
It contains expansions like Castle Additions and Magic Items,
Farmland is now 1 option among many that you can use to develop your open space,
More tables and charts to for easy reference and understanding,
Game Mastering sections
And more in one handy volume.
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@Dale: What's the difference between the Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building and the Exploration and Kindom building books?The Complete Players Reference for Kingdom Building contains:
Exploration and Kingdom Building,
Mass Combat, and
Feats, Spell, and Secret Societies.Plus
It contains expansions like Castle Additions and Magic Items,
Farmland is now 1 option among many that you can use to develop your open space,
More tables and charts to for easy reference and understanding,
Game Mastering sectionsAnd more in one handy volume.
HIGHLY recommended, by the way! A must have if you are playing, or plan to play Kingmaker.
Just wanted the thanks the fine folks mentioning their support of Rite Publishing
Steve Russell
If the products are good, fun, and actually add something to the game, then I'm all for them. During the 3.5 heyday, there was a LOT of crap floating around the pool. Super Genius Games, Dreamscarred Press,Open Design/Kobold Quarterly, and Rite Publishing make some great products, and I use their supplements alongside the "official" rules in nearly every game.
I remember reading that the Tome of Secrets was released the same day that the Core Rulebook was released. Take from that what you will, but I wasn't too happy with that purchase.
Drop me a line ( gms@adamantentertainment.com ), and I'll figure out some way to refund your purchase price.
Sorry that you didn't find anything in the multiple topics covered (races, classes, chase rules, stunts, etc.) that you could use.
There's just about the right amount out there... a lot of it high quality. Could use more actual print products, though.
Kobold Press
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Open Design does a lot of print releases, most recently Book of Drakes, Complete Advanced Feats, Streets of Zobeck, and Northlands. These are well-designed, professionally-edited, and favorably reviewed titles created with a lot of love for the Pathfinder RPG.
But you know, print is a lot riskier and a lot more difficult for a small press publisher to pull off. Print costs and distribution costs raise the bar. It's hard to match Paizo's print pricing when a 3PP is unlikely to print in China. It is, frankly, a small victory every time Open Design ships a printed book or magazine.
So I understand why more and more companies go PDF-only. It's just becoming harder and harder to justify the time, difficulty, and risk of major print releases (the business case for print keeps getting worse, which just leads to a spiral of less releases, etc). The lure of PDF-only is strong.
If you love print, I would encourage you to pick up the print 3PP books that interest you right along with the monthly Paizo releases. Every sale matters for the 3PP!
Thanks to everyone that has mentioned 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming!
As much as it can irk me to see terrible materials up for sale (with seemingly no other goal than to bilk the gullible out of a buck or two), it does help the good and great stuff stand out like very not-sore awesome thumbs.
Thanks to the talented 3PP's out there (you know who you are:-). My thumb-drive groans under the weight of your cool offerings.
I haven't really checked out a whole lot of 3PP stuff yet, although the book of the River Kingdoms does sound pretty awesome...
One thing I haven't heard anyone mention nor seen at my FLGS is any 3PP adventures... Have there been any good ones released yet?
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Kobold Press
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The one adventure collection that people keep mentioning as "perfect with Kingmaker" is Tales of the Old Margreve. Authors include Tim Connors and Richard Pett, among others, so it makes a certain amount of sense...
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I remember reading that the Tome of Secrets was released the same day that the Core Rulebook was released. Take from that what you will, but I wasn't too happy with that purchase.
I am pretty sure that Adamant (and other 3PPs) had seen the rules pre-release, so why is a simultaneous release a problem?
If you love print, I would encourage you to pick up the print 3PP books that interest you right along with the monthly Paizo releases. Every sale matters for the 3PP!
Like a subscription to Kobold Quarterly? And the odd Open Design patronage? ;)
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I wanted to ask the community how they felt about Pathfinder RPG's 3rd Party Support. Do you like the products non-Paizo companies put out to support the Pathfinder RPG? Do you use any non-Paizo books in your own games? There are a lot of 3rd Part companies and a lot of products. Given they are not authorized for Society play and are not an official product, I've always been curious how well people beyond myself have received them and how much use they get. Are they useful? A waste of time? Let me know.
I love the support 3PPs provide for the PFRPG. While I don't use everything from the products I've purchased (pretty much as I don't use everything from the Paizo books such as the APG or UM), I find that a whole lot of stuff is incredibly useful to add further customization, options and exotic tools at the hands of both the players and the GM.
I heartily recommend Open Design and Raging Swan Press for adventures and background resources, along other fine publishers such as Spes Magna Games, Super Genius Games, zombie Sky Press, the Games Mechanics, Tricky Owlbear Publishising, Rite Publishing and 4th Dimension Games.
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I'm mostly familiar with Green Ronin's Pathfinder Companion to Freeport, a few Open Design projects (Sunken Empires and From the Shore to the Sea) and a metric short ton of SGG PDFs, and find these things well-designed and worth the price.
There may be occasional rules mechanics I would tweak, but the same can be said of stuff in the core rules, APG and Ultimate Magic, so that's not exactly a condemnation, so much as an admission that I'm impossible to please and like to tinker with stuff. :)
I think it is interesting to try and break it all down and peel back all the layers to see whats lurking under the whole notion of Official and Third Party. To some extent this kind of brand identity game has been going on for as long as there is commerce. Though it seems to me the way the game licences work now is new as companies invite others to contribute to the core brand as official 3rd party offerings.
Ultimately when you peel back all the layers, you find some people. Writers, artists, editors and producers who make the products. Sometimes that's just one guy, sometimes its a whole group. When push comes to shove that is where quality comes from. Folks that have both the talent and the motivation to do a good job. One or the other generally isn't good enough.
There is a struggle between compromise and getting the job done. Often to meet budget and deadline you have to do less than you wanted. Often to make a product something special you have to do more than you wanted to. I think the best publishers are those that struggle and fight in that zone. Anyone not making compromises probably isn't actually putting out many products and anyone who doesn't feel a bit over worked and put upon somewhere in the process isn't going to make a top quality game book.
Game companies live and die on their rep, and their ability to make money (sometimes substituting love and second mortgages for making money). So do the individuals that make the products the companies sell. And that is as it should be.
I guess I feel like the brands and the game are two separate things. Intertwined but not inexorably. I like saying "Pathfinder is D&D". And in the hearts of paizo fans that's completely true, yet its something Paizo can't say out loud. This fact speaks to the notion that the game and the brand are not one in the same. It also means that everyone making material for pathfinder is also the game, even if they are not entirely the brand. I'd like to think its the game we all love, not the brand even if we are also fond of the brands we enjoy or produce.
Ok... enough rambling from me.. I can't seem to come to a real conclusion here. :)
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I like saying "Pathfinder is D&D". And in the hearts of paizo fans that's completely true, yet its something Paizo can't say out loud.
[tangent]
I catch myself doing that a bit, as well. Ultimately, I'm trying to break the habit, since Pathfinder is it's own thing, and with new classes like the Summoner, and new systems like Words of Power, I think it's going to continue to 'find it's own path' and become more of it's own thing.I called a very different game in the '70's and '80's 'D&D,' with multi-classed demihumans with level limits and clerics with seven levels of spells and fun little titles at each level, so that one could progress from a curate to a prefect. 3.X was *wildly* different, in many ways, and it was 'D&D,' too. The rules of 'D&D' have changed again, and I'm playing Pathfinder now.
I'm okay with letting those letters go, so long as I'm still playing the game I want to play.
[/tangent]
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My highest level of recommendation would go to Frog God Games. I'm not really sure why they tend to be ignored as much as they are on threads like these, but they put out some of the best damn adventures availible for the PFRPG (as well as supplying almost all those adventures for Swords & Wizardry as well). Maybe it's because Paizo itself is so adventure focused, but I think that FGG fills a couple of niches that Paizo doesn't really fill: adventures that are between a 32-page module and a full AP in size, and very short adventures that can be run in just a night or two. And they've got a fully Pathfinder-compatible version of the Tome of Horrors: Complete comming out before too long...and the Tome of Horrors is probably the 3PP that Paizo itself uses more than any other.
I don't buy any 3PP material, not in 3.5, not in Pathfinder.
From what I read from the blogs, they have quite good ideas, however I don't really need them.
Sorry 3PP developers, I respect your work, but when I decide for a game, I only buy from that game, or invent myself.
Hmm . . .
I've been fortunate enough to write a few things for 4e and Pathfinder, and it is clear to me that Pathfinder has a larger appetite (or a table more open to) 3rd party offerings.
That being said, I think it is a tricky proposition of filling in the niches. Paizo puts out a lot of quality offerings that cover a lot of ground:
Adventures: They have the much-loved AP, modules, and PFS offerings. Seems like directly competing with Paizo in this regard could be tricky. Are there 3rd party adventures out there that are doing well?
DM Material: Monster books, Campaign Settings, etc. I've worked on a few of these, and they've seem to do well. But again, Paizo puts out new monsters with every adventure, and a bestiary once-a-yearish . . . How are campaign settings and these books doing? I know Open Design is rolling with the Midgard setting, but I wonder if the patronage aspect is what grants them the freedom to complete something that competes with Golarion.
Player Material: Options, Feats, new classes, etc. From what I've seen this is the biggest 3rd party offering, which leads me to believe it is doing well. I also imagine it is the source for the complaint of 'rules bloat.' Still, it is not like Paizo doesn't offer lots and lots of player options.
None of the above should be misconstrued as reasons why not to publish 3rd party material, obviously a handful of companies are doing very, very well. I imagine aside from solid creativity and production, these companies excel at hitting niches in the space that Pathfinder/Golarion present.
And, as often happens when I write longish forum posts, I've completely lost my train of thought . . . I guess for those of you who buy 3rd party material, is there a secret to what you buy? Brand loyalty, certain types of books, etc.
A little thought came to me, what would it take for a person who doesn't normally pick up and support 3PP to actually check one out? Does it have to be free? Is it the writer? Is it the topic? Or have you just said it has to be Paizo or nothing? Just curious about what the answer would be.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Lou,
Adventures are adventures. I will pick up a good adventure from a great writer, no matter the game system.
I have never picked up a 3rd-party rules supplement, and I have no intention of doing so. I'd be willing to change my mind, 30 seconds after Mark and Hyrim rule they're allowed in PFS Organized Play.