This thread has been quite interesting, a few options I had not thought of for my current barbarian. I am playing a barbarian with prestige in Horizon Walker (fav terrain desert) for 3 levels for immunity to exhaustion and fatigue so that I will be able to rage and unrage every other round. We play with a house rule that Rage hit points are regular temp hit points, as a draw back, we do not allow a barbarian to start and end a rage in the same round.
Anyway, I had never looked at Come and Get Me before, and it is pretty amazing, but I have a question. Does it get around the 1 AoO a round and allow you to take as many AoO at turn as you like, or do you still need to take Combat reflexes for something like that?
I had most of build planned out, trying out an elemental kin archtype, but I think I might have to scrap a some of my feat choices for extra rage power and take Come and Get Me.
How a Barbarian beats a Fighter... ;)
This comic kind of annoyed me.
Roy is an intelligent fighter. The intelligent fighter is supposed to take Expertise (he must have it, he has improved sunder).
And so he should have superior expertise.
He's at least 15th level. Total defense + Sup Expertise is +21 to AC. He should have just dodged Thog until Thog's rage ran out, and then proceeded to own him again.
meh.
===Aelryinth
This thread has been quite interesting, a few options I had not thought of for my current barbarian. I am playing a barbarian with prestige in Horizon Walker (fav terrain desert) for 3 levels for immunity to exhaustion and fatigue so that I will be able to rage and unrage every other round. We play with a house rule that Rage hit points are regular temp hit points, as a draw back, we do not allow a barbarian to start and end a rage in the same round.
Anyway, I had never looked at Come and Get Me before, and it is pretty amazing, but I have a question. Does it get around the 1 AoO a round and allow you to take as many AoO at turn as you like, or do you still need to take Combat reflexes for something like that?
I had most of build planned out, trying out an elemental kin archtype, but I think I might have to scrap a some of my feat choices for extra rage power and take Come and Get Me.
It's just like Robilar's Gambit. You get one AoO for every seperate attack tossed at you. That generates a lot of free attacks for you if you've any kind of dex bonus and Combat Reflexes.
So, yes, you need Combat Reflexes to take more then one AoO.
==Aelryinth
It's just like Robilar's Gambit. You get one AoO for every seperate attack tossed at you. That generates a lot of free attacks for you if you've any kind of dex bonus and Combat Reflexes.
So, yes, you need Combat Reflexes to take more then one AoO.
==Aelryinth
Alright, thanks. I figured as much, but just wanted to make sure.
Come and Get Me and Unexpected Stike are going to make things very fun :D
How a Barbarian beats a Fighter... ;)This comic kind of annoyed me.
Roy is an intelligent fighter. The intelligent fighter is supposed to take Expertise (he must have it, he has improved sunder).
And so he should have superior expertise.
He's at least 15th level. Total defense + Sup Expertise is +21 to AC. He should have just dodged Thog until Thog's rage ran out, and then proceeded to own him again.
meh.
===Aelryinth
Sunder has Power Attack as prereq.
But I agree. I've seen an high level fighter and does not work in that way (Oots is 3.5, so barbarian had far less compared to fighter).
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How a Barbarian beats a Fighter... ;)This comic kind of annoyed me.
Roy is an intelligent fighter. The intelligent fighter is supposed to take Expertise (he must have it, he has improved sunder).
And so he should have superior expertise.
He's at least 15th level. Total defense + Sup Expertise is +21 to AC. He should have just dodged Thog until Thog's rage ran out, and then proceeded to own him again.
meh.
===Aelryinth
Sunder requires Power attack, not Combat expertise. Whats superior expertise? is it the feat from 3.5s complete warrior that lets you use combat exp up to your BAB?
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Joking aside, I actually think the strip makes a good point (if it were based on Pathfinder, which I know it's not, but still...) that a 'specialised' Fighter archetype - like a Two Handed Fighter - can be somewhat screwed by getting disarmed... Barbarian uses Strength Surge to make sure the disarm works, then goes to town wrecking the Fighter with his superior rage-fueled brawling abilities... But yeah, Roy... dude... Total defense until he's out of rage! ;p
Yes, Superior Expertise lets you use Expertise up to your Full BAB. Basically, if a high level fighter didn't want to get hit, he didn't get hit.
But basically, the last few strips have been all about the OoTS getting pwned. Wonder what he's setting them up for?
=Aelryinth
Good point. Barbs do more damage than fighters cause they can get more strikes via come and get me and pounce. Damage PER hit, nothing beats fighter (smite etc can, but not all day).
So they must do more damage per strike and get more strikes?
No. It should be a or proposition, not a and.
I agree, actually MY preffered idea is the Barb should hit the hardest PER strike. Fighters should hit more.
I don´t get it... are there any other non power gamers out there? After all it´s a ROLEplaying game, right?
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I don´t get it... are there any other non power gamers out there? After all it´s a ROLEplaying game, right?
This is a thread about the relative combat prowess of the Barbarian.
Not about role playing.Take your trolling elsewhere please.
Joking aside, I actually think the strip makes a good point (if it were based on Pathfinder, which I know it's not, but still...) that a 'specialised' Fighter archetype - like a Two Handed Fighter - can be somewhat screwed by getting disarmed... Barbarian uses Strength Surge to make sure the disarm works, then goes to town wrecking the Fighter with his superior rage-fueled brawling abilities... But yeah, Roy... dude... Total defense until he's out of rage! ;p
Hopefully OOTS gets updated to PF. :)
That same argument can be thrown at THE barb. Thog made the disarm attempt without a weapon since Roy had already sundered it.
Improved Combat Exp would be a good feat for PF (reworked so it made combat expertise like PA. Subtract a number for x3 AC) make it fighter only...
Thing is...from nearly any story arc, Thog would likely be an Optimised CaGM, Pounce, Reckless Abandon Barb-doing damage seems to be his only trick.
Roy on the other hand, I would not lay money on a feat list for him. Pretty sure he doesn't have spring attack. The sunder line is all I'd bet on. I see him eat alot of AOO'S so he likely doesn't have lunge.
In any case, as fun as a comic comparison is (I'll be making 20level Roy and Thog progessions for fun), it's less relevant to actual game play.
One thing about optimal barbs is they encourage hyperspecialising. Fighters usually have at least 1extra backup combat option.
IE Barb is Unstoppable Pouncer
while a fighter can be a
Two Handed Warrior Deadly Stroker + Decent Bow user.
My major problem with the barbarian is that I want more rage powers in my build and I want them now! Too many good ones to choose.
use feats :-)
I've been giving your arguments some tohhts and I agree on the part of the barbarian out powering the fighter. Not on every hit, but CAGM, Pounce, Unexpected Strike,Hurling Charge, Witch Hunter etc make the barbarian more powerful.
Then we have fun things like , Clear Mind, Scent, Animal Fury, Superstition, Intimidating Glare, and Knockdown. I really like Knockdown.
Finaly we have Roused Anger that lets the barb re-rage once during battle.
I guess fighters might be easier to role play, but Barbs are more powerful. At least from level 8 or 10.
FRIENDLY SARCASM- your point is invalid. My Samurai kicks both the.Fighter and Barbarians tushes with his 1000 yard stare. Honourable Stand!!
Lo, my Wolf Brothers !!
The Skalds in my area have been slow to impart news of new powers for us warriors of Rage. (my UC is in the mail) So what new powers beckon us in our anger? Can we abandon the path of Invulnerability and Come and Get Me?? Have any Barbs read UC yet?, I know reading is a womanish skill but still......
Well the Skald has arrived, now gather by the fire.....
It looks like the Pouncing Inv Barb has some good legs to him yet. Wild Rager gives an extra attack but drawbacks exist { eg the Bloody Nine}. There are some nice archetypes, however I will leave that for the guide peoples.
Lots of new Rage Powers.
Auspicious Mark grants a once per rage ability to add a bonus to a d20 roll after it is seen. May be good, may be great??? Does a 1 on a d20 with a 1-6 bonus roll remain a 1, or is it a 2-7?
A whole whack of powers chain off Powerful Blow and Suprise Accuracy. Suprise Accuracy ones seem nice but in the main depend on critting off your one "Suprise Accuracy" strike, not sure how that will play out. The Powerful Blow related powers may be more easily applied and can give bleed and other effects.
Superstious RP also gets a chain. Ghost Rager seems nice, can eat various incorpreal things and a boost to Touch AC. Eater of Magic lets you reroll failed saves and if successful you are unaffected and gain temp HP. Nice but forget about healing??? (have your 20th level cleric cast 1st level spells at you for 20 temp hit points?? [or brokenly Orisons??}}
Two APG feats are given some love with RP chains for Guarded Life and Renewed Vigor. I am not convinced that these will work better but do mitigate some of the RPs issues[ eg mitigation of temp negative levels, extra lethal damage conversion,fast healing]
LOL Body Bludgeon!!! Very funny and good for RP stuff!
Some new RPs deal with Superstious Barbs using their powers to destroy spell effects and Magic abilities: Spell Sunder, and Sunder enchantment. I am not sure re these.
The new totems in general seem meh to me.World Serpent may be the best of the bunch but on first look APG ones are better. I am thinking in conjunction with Wild Rager some new and effective Barbs may work [eg Savage Barb or True Primitive with Wild Rager and Fiend/Chaos totems?? }
A couple of new feats seem intersting...
Bolstered Reselience lets you double DR vs one attack at the cost of fatigue at the start of your next turn. Tireless Rage likely would not help here but a level of Oracle might!!!!
Fortified Armor Training??? but how many shields will you carry??
Raging Brutality: the Barbs Smite or Challenge using rage to allow additonal damage based off of Con. A must buy??
Raging Deathblow: recover rage rounds by killing and critting foes. Raging Brutality will suck up rage rounds so this may help
Lots of new feats but Barbs are feat challenged so the two ragings are likely it. With the new rage powers non-raging Barbs wont have many feats to enhance combat!
All in all some nice goodies in UC for Barbs so I would recommend it. This is obviously not an exhaustive discussion but just an attempt to highlight some Barbarian material in UC. I look forward to the new builds that will be presented and peoples opinions of the new RPs and feats!
I've kind of been bouncing around bringing back the 'spring attacking' barb idea. Bestial Leaper allows you to take a move action, and somewhere along it, take a standard, so now you can Vital Strike with 'spring attack' (with a little power tax, you have to take raging leaper first). Also there is a feat in UC that allows you to end your rage to do max damage on a vital strike, think it's called Furious Finish(though I seem to recall that you get fatigued for ending rage even if you are immune) so you could do a fair amount of burst damage with that combo. If they fix Titan Mauler, it might work really well.
The Urban Barbarian looked kinda cool too, you can add your stat boost to one stat, including dex, instead of str and con, and you have a few less restrictions on what you can do while raging. A dervish dance Urban Barb combined with Ghost Rager will have a pretty solid touch AC.
Superstious RP also gets a chain. Ghost Rager seems nice, can eat various incorpreal things and a boost to Touch AC. Eater of Magic lets you reroll failed saves and if successful you are unaffected and gain temp HP. Nice but forget about healing??? (have your 20th level cleric cast 1st level spells at you for 20 temp hit points?? [or brokenly Orisons??}}
Don't have UC yet. However, the temp HP idea behind superstition sounds awesome. One biggy is that a superstitious barbarian must save against his allies healing. So basically, a superstitious barbarian would save, take half healing and then get a bunch of temp HP on top of that. Totally sweet. No more need for clear mind.
Agree on the feats problem. Most rage powers are better than feats so a lot of barbarian feat trees grab power attack and the extra rage power over and over and over again.
Eater of Magic requires you to have failed a save, then reroll and succeed on the save to get the temp hp, I think. So it's cool, but not an infinite temp hp trick. Also I think it's once a rage. It is a cool power though, a barb can end up with quite a few re-rolls each rage now.
Auspicious Mark, Clear Mind, Eater of Magic.
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Good For What Ails You is so bloody awesome that I'd take it a lot earlier. Very synergistic with Drunken Brute archetype.Hit Like a Truck Barbarian:
<snip>
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Unexpected Strike
Mighty Swing
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for what Ails you.
Your attack at 20 is 20 +4(Mighty Rage) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +6(Reckless Abandon)+6(str)+2(Furious Weapon)- 6(PA)= 40/35/30/25 Damage with +5 Furious, Sonic, Menacing, Keen, Ghost Touch Greatsword is 2d6 +19(1.5 x str w/belt, Mighty Rage)+18(PA)+ +5(enhancement)+1d6(sonic)+ 2(Furious)= av 54 per hit, 60 vs Casters
Any Furious weapon is at least +4 to hit and damage while raging.
...is Sonic a purchasable weapon enhancement in Pathfinder (which source)?
Apologies. Sonic cannot be purchased, so go with frost.
Checked furious.My entry is correct. Treat Wpn enhancement bonus as 2 better than normal while raging.
The build needs updating now, Brutal Rager will go in somewhere.
I'm sad to say Barbs are DEFINITELY better melee damage dealers than fighters....
Why, oh why, fighters got no real love in ultimate COMBAT is beyond me.
I mean, pin down is the ONLY fighter only feat in the book. It's pretty nice, But where is the fighter only re-roll save feat,
pounce,
Melee Wpn mastery, supremacy
Two Wpn Pounce (allowed as ranger TWF combat style feat)
Leap attack
High sword/low axe
Iron Heart Surge
Obviously, I'm copying these but they're just a few examples of stuff only fighters should do.
I have faith in PF, i really do, but it seems they've made Pally's and Barbs into unstoppable juggernauts in terms of damage and saves. Add samurai to that list as well.Fighters can keep up, damage wise and have no limited resource to chew like smite, challenge or rage. But their saves suck and they have no way to really mitigate this (the combat focus chain from PHB2 was good).
Barbs, Pally get MASSIVE saves
Samurai get re-rolls, with bonuses.
Monk, Ranger get high saves.
They're all comparable, damage wise, AC wise, HP wise. But when It comes to the resisting spells bit-fighters are hosed.
If Spell Sunder works with Strength Surge, the barbarian can dispel almost any effect once he has access to microrages.
And since it's a normal sunder attempt, it can be used as part of a full attack.
Heck yeahs! I see your summon monster 9 and raise you a single bad ass sunder to dispell it. That is the most bad ass rage power ever. You have a freaking magic key against all defensive magic. By-By prismatic wall. (Note: There are no restrictions on this power. If you own the CMB sunder check the spell is dispelled period. No need for a staff with all the silly spells to get through a prismatic wall/sphere just sunder the thing and watch the mage stand there dumbfounded.) AWESOME! This rage power puts the barbarian at the top spot for a mage killer. Period.
1 lvl of Oracle and the lame curse gives you immunity to fatigue at 9th lvl. That's the quickest way to get it for only 1 lvl dip out of barbarian. As a bonus you also get one mystery and some of those are pretty decent.
Also check out Ghost Rager. You get your superstition bonus to touch AC. Thats a huge bump for a maxed out superstition (+13 to my touch AC = Best touch AC in the game). Good luck touching me mr. mage with your negative level no save spell.
A two level dip in oracle might be best, as it will give you access to Enlarge Person, which you could use on yourself at least 4 times a day. (as a battle oracle)
You would also then get fatigue immunity at level 8.
Speaking of a Battle Oracle Barbarian... which mystery would people think is ideal?
I was thinking either Warsight (roll twice for Init), Weapon Mastery (for free Weapon Focus), or Surprising Charge (1/day immediate action move).
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How about the Metal or Flame Mysteries? Enlarge Person isn't that great, taking a full round action to cast and only lasting a minute. The option to gain extra movement isn't bad.
The two extra revelations from the dual cursed oracle are very useful, but I'm not sure if a barbarian is allowed to use them while raging. If so, tongues might be a good secondary curse.
Surprising Charge, for when you won't be able to pounce, it insures another full attack.
BARBARIAN AM BEST THERE IS AT WHAT BARBARIAN DO. BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL ALWAYS. AM SHOW UP ON DIRE BAT WITH AM LANCE AND AM SMITE ALL WITH FURY. AM HAVE SUPER FEATS AM CALL RAGE POWER.
AM NO CASTER-MARTIAL DESTRUCITY.
AM BARBARIAN-NOT BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
BARBARIAN AM BEST THERE IS AT WHAT BARBARIAN DO. BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL ALWAYS. AM SHOW UP ON DIRE BAT WITH AM LANCE AND AM SMITE ALL WITH FURY. AM HAVE SUPER FEATS AM CALL RAGE POWER.
AM NO CASTER-MARTIAL DESTRUCITY.
AM BARBARIAN-NOT BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
Thanks Trinam. You make an excellent point that a lvl of oracle would be bad character design for squishy caster killers like ourselves.
A lvl of oracle at most is all I would want. I am not trying to make a gish, just become immune to fatigue. That, and I don't want to loose more rage powers than I have too. They are too damn good.
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I'm sad to say Barbs are DEFINITELY better melee damage dealers than fighters....
Why, oh why, fighters got no real love in ultimate COMBAT is beyond me.
Because they don't need it.
<put on Gloves of Dueling and pound the purple-snotted tar out of everything in sight>
-- You just try and find one measly item at any price in a Paizo Pathfinder source that amplifies rage. Good luck. But the fighters, for 15k, can duplicate all the rich, creamy, weapon-badassing goodness of your rage while suffering none of the drawbacks. Worse yet, they can even sneak into your barbarian training seminars and spend one level and one feat (Extra Rage) learning how to get really mad -- and it'll all stack.
Did they change Gloves of Dueling to give Pounce, Spell Sunder and Superstitious?
I'm sad to say Barbs are DEFINITELY better melee damage dealers than fighters....
Why, oh why, fighters got no real love in ultimate COMBAT is beyond me.
Because they don't need it.
<put on Gloves of Dueling and pound the purple-snotted tar out of everything in sight>
-- You just try and find one measly item at any price in a Paizo Pathfinder source that amplifies rage. Good luck. But the fighters, for 15k, can duplicate all the rich, creamy, weapon-badassing goodness of your rage while suffering none of the drawbacks. Worse yet, they can even sneak into your barbarian training seminars and spend one level and one feat (Extra Rage) learning how to get really mad -- and it'll all stack.
Well lets see.
A level 11 fighter with a +2 weapon+ gloves +wpn training 2 and gtr wpn fcs has an attack bonus of
BAB11+2(enhancement)+4(wpn train+gloves)+2feats= 19 before STR.
A Barb with a +1 Furious Wpn+Gtr Rage+Wpn Fcs+Reckless Abandon is a total of
BAB11+3(For +1 Furious)+3GTR Rage+1Wpn Fcs+3Reckless Abandon= 21 before STR
Advantage Barbarian when both same STR, same value weapon, same number of attack bonus feats.
But I wasn't lamenting the lack of +'s for fighters, I agree they get enough. What I was dissapointed in was there was only 1 fighter only feat.
For a class that has 1 thing, they need more stuff like Deadly Stroke, Rolibar's Gambit, Bounding Assault, Iron Heart Surge.
THAT's what I was annoyed about. The ULTIMATE COMBAT book didn't give fighters any badass stuff only they could do.
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How about the Metal or Flame Mysteries? Enlarge Person isn't that great, taking a full round action to cast and only lasting a minute. The option to gain extra movement isn't bad.
The two extra revelations from the dual cursed oracle are very useful, but I'm not sure if a barbarian is allowed to use them while raging. If so, tongues might be a good secondary curse.
Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th level, you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion). At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor. At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition....
Cinder Dance (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 5th level, you receive Nimble Moves as a bonus feat. At 10th level, you receive Acrobatic Steps as a bonus feat. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats. Oracles with the lame oracle curse cannot select this evelation.
...
Dance of the Blades (Ex): Your base speed increases by
10 feet. At 7th level, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a metal weapon in any round in which you move at least 10 feet. This bonus increases by +1 at 11th level, and every four levels thereafter. At 11th level, as a move action, you can maneuver your weapon to create a shield of whirling steel around yourself until the start of your next turn; non-incorporeal melee and ranged attacks against you have a 20% miss chance while the shield is active. You must be wielding a metal weapon to use this ability.
Cinder Dance has been errated to remove the possibility to increase the base speed of a lame Oracle. I suspect that Dance of blades will be errated too as soon as someone at Paizo notice the combo.
The idea is that there should be no way to overcome the oracle curse effect by taking abilities granted by the Oracle class.
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I'm sad to say Barbs are DEFINITELY better melee damage dealers than fighters....
Why, oh why, fighters got no real love in ultimate COMBAT is beyond me.
Because they don't need it.
<put on Gloves of Dueling and pound the purple-snotted tar out of everything in sight>
-- You just try and find one measly item at any price in a Paizo Pathfinder source that amplifies rage. Good luck. But the fighters, for 15k, can duplicate all the rich, creamy, weapon-badassing goodness of your rage while suffering none of the drawbacks. Worse yet, they can even sneak into your barbarian training seminars and spend one level and one feat (Extra Rage) learning how to get really mad -- and it'll all stack.
Well lets see.
A level 11 fighter with a +2 weapon+ gloves +wpn training 2 and gtr wpn fcs has an attack bonus of
BAB11+2(enhancement)+4(wpn train+gloves)+2feats= 19 before STR.A Barb with a +1 Furious Wpn+Gtr Rage+Wpn Fcs+Reckless Abandon is a total of
BAB11+3(For +1 Furious)+3GTR Rage+1Wpn Fcs+3Reckless Abandon= 21 before STRAdvantage Barbarian when both same STR, same value weapon, same number of attack bonus feats.
But I wasn't lamenting the lack of +'s for fighters, I agree they get enough. What I was dissapointed in was there was only 1 fighter only feat.
For a class that has 1 thing, they need more stuff like Deadly Stroke, Rolibar's Gambit, Bounding Assault, Iron Heart Surge.
THAT's what I was annoyed about. The ULTIMATE COMBAT book didn't give fighters any badass stuff only they could do.
it holds true from about 10th level to 20th. Barbarians get 2-4 more "to0hit" but fighters end up with 4-6 more damage.
it makes sense from a DPR stand point, but looks weird on paper
barbarians get the edge from beast totem and pouncing. with reckless abandon, power attack, furious focus, and the one that give a NA bonus you end up keeping your ac the same, balancing out the negative from power attack, and actually getting a 'bonus' to hit on your first attack. combine with pounce, and you drop most things i 1 round
Yes, Barbs are freakin awesome now.
I find it odd that the furious dude is actually more accurate than the trained warrior.
I find it even odder the fighter usually hits harder than the Barb (though NOT against casters. THX Witchunter. OR if the Barb has Raging Brutality)
Barbs can now 1round most things if done right.
Yes, Barbs are freakin awesome now.
I find it odd that the furious dude is actually more accurate than the trained warrior.
I find it even odder the fighter usually hits harder than the Barb (though NOT against casters. THX Witchunter. OR if the Barb has Raging Brutality)
Barbs can now 1round most things if done right.
Explain, "done right"
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How about fighter in full-plate is AC+6 over reckless raging barbarian in breastplate)?A level 11 fighter with a +2 weapon+ gloves +wpn training 2 and gtr wpn fcs has an attack bonus of
BAB11+2(enhancement)+4(wpn train+gloves)+2feats= 19 before STR.A Barb with a +1 Furious Wpn+Gtr Rage+Wpn Fcs+Reckless Abandon is a total of
BAB11+3(For +1 Furious)+3GTR Rage+1Wpn Fcs+3Reckless Abandon= 21 before STRAdvantage Barbarian when both same STR, same value weapon, same number of attack bonus feats.
The ULTIMATE COMBAT book didn't give fighters any badass stuff only they could do.
You mean besides the new archetypes?
Tower Shield Defense (Ex): At 9th level, while using
a tower shield, a tower shield specialist gains his shield
bonus against touch attacks. This ability replaces weapon
training 2.
<eyeballs pop out of head and do boingy-oingy cartoon bouncing>
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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That shield bonus to touch attacks count as only 4 or enhancement bonus apply as well.That is bigg difference.
Problem with tower shields is that they allow only +2dex bonus which in the end give less AC(because armor training provide +5 dex bonus to AC even in Full Plate)and plus 2 hit penalty.
The tower shield fighter archetype he references in UC deals with that issue as well.
How about fighter in full-plate is AC+6 over reckless raging barbarian in breastplate)?A level 11 fighter with a +2 weapon+ gloves +wpn training 2 and gtr wpn fcs has an attack bonus of
BAB11+2(enhancement)+4(wpn train+gloves)+2feats= 19 before STR.A Barb with a +1 Furious Wpn+Gtr Rage+Wpn Fcs+Reckless Abandon is a total of
BAB11+3(For +1 Furious)+3GTR Rage+1Wpn Fcs+3Reckless Abandon= 21 before STRAdvantage Barbarian when both same STR, same value weapon, same number of attack bonus feats.
The ULTIMATE COMBAT book didn't give fighters any badass stuff only they could do.You mean besides the new archetypes?
Tower Shield Defense (Ex): At 9th level, while using
a tower shield, a tower shield specialist gains his shield
bonus against touch attacks. This ability replaces weapon
training 2.<eyeballs pop out of head and do boingy-oingy cartoon bouncing>
1. Nearly EVERY class got archetypes. Rogues got talents, Barbs got more awesome rage powers. Fighters got 1 fighter only feat! WTF! Hell, Barbs got more Barb ONLY feats that are freaking awesome: Raging Brutality? Sure I'll take +12 damage per strike to my next full attack (Happy Dance!)
Raging Deathblow- Gain a rage round when you drop a foe. Hell yeah, Barbarians flip out and kill people all the time! That's worth maybe 4 to 8rage rounds back per day!
Hmmm they are comparable AC wise?While raging and using reckless abandon they loose 8(eight) AC.Fighter have armor training+full plate +5=19ac from that.Barbarian with breastplate +5 have 14AC which is 5 less.So we are already at 13 difference.Dont even to mention if fighter have shield with both shield focus and greater shield focus.If dwarf,iron hide,dodge as well.Fighter have so many feats that he can afford to take all those,plus even if barbarian go with shield and OH weapon(what is very bad for barbarian to go into(and that isnt case with fighters IMO))he still cant take greater shield focus and wont use most probably his few...Apologies. Sonic cannot be purchased, so go with frost.
Checked furious.My entry is correct. Treat Wpn enhancement bonus as 2 better than normal while raging.
The build needs updating now, Brutal Rager will go in somewhere.
I'm sad to say Barbs are DEFINITELY better melee damage dealers than fighters....Why, oh why, fighters got no real love in ultimate COMBAT is beyond me.
I mean, pin down is the ONLY fighter only feat in the book. It's pretty nice, But where is the fighter only re-roll save feat,
pounce,
Melee Wpn mastery, supremacy
Two Wpn Pounce (allowed as ranger TWF combat style feat)
Leap attack
High sword/low axe
Iron Heart SurgeObviously, I'm copying these but they're just a few examples of stuff only fighters should do.
I have faith in PF, i really do, but it seems they've made Pally's and Barbs into unstoppable juggernauts in terms of damage and saves. Add samurai to that list as well.Fighters can keep up, damage wise and have no limited resource to chew like smite, challenge or rage. But their saves suck and they have no way to really mitigate this (the combat focus chain from PHB2 was good).
Barbs, Pally get MASSIVE saves
Samurai get re-rolls, with bonuses.
Monk, Ranger get high saves.They're all comparable, damage wise, AC wise, HP wise. But when It comes to the resisting spells bit-fighters are hosed.
Yes fighters can be better armored. Please stick to a comparison of 2hander fighter vs 2hander barb to keep things even (swordnboard not valid unless both builds do it.)
Now, we're getting into corner cases here but generally a Barb with reckless abandon will be an Invulnerable Rager so he won't need as high an AC.
The point was all the melees get thier jobs done within an acceptable range of HP, AC.
what the Barb may lack in AC over a AC optimised Fighter is alot. Barbs don't generally optimise for AC- they go for damage. Now a Two Handed warrior archetype or even core fighter going for 2handed will be alot closer in terms of AC, damage output (except he won't have pounce) and HP. In terms of Saves, if the Barb CHOOSES superstition, the fighter is not even close.
Fighters cannot effectively optimise Saves.
Pally's and Rangers, have it alot better naturally.
Barb's have to pick for high saves but they at least get the option.
An 'Iron Heart Surge' type fighter only feat would have helped this alot.
Once again, I'm not bagging fighters here. I love em. I'm saying it would be nice if they got some help in the save department and some cool fighter only feats.
We allow 3.5. I have no trouble making Kick ass Barbs using all PF. With fighters however, I find my self going back to Combat Fcs, Combat Vigor, Combat Stablity (Fast Heal 4, +4Will, +8CMD) and Iron Will so I can reliably make my will saves.
I could see a ´Fighter only´ Feat that people might like would be with the pre-req of Weapon Training class Feature.
The Feat lets you, instead of a Weapon Group, choose a Saving Throw type as the subject of your Weapon Training.
You get a scaling bonus to that Save type when that ´Weapon Group´ goes up (with your level).
Fighters that only want one Weapon Training group in an actual weapon can allocate the rest to all their Saves (at different levels), and you can even allocate your HIGHEST Weapon Training to a Save if you so wish (which is pretty reasonable, you don´t really need all of Weapon Training to have a good to-hit, esp. with Weapon Focus/Grt Weapon Focus, not to mention the Gloves that boost Weapon Training by +2.. which may also apply to the Saves, though perhaps that would be too much and wouldn´t be allowed with the Feat)
The thing about Gloves is that they don´t work with MANY of the Archetypes which swap out Weapon Training.
Some still have Weapon Training, but just restrict it, e.g. 2-Handed Fighters, but Mobile, 2WF swap it out.
I think Fighters still do OK, though I personally prefer Barbs.
Fighters will almost always have crappier Saves is basically their weakest point. But if the enemy is targetting the Fighter´s will save, they aren´t doing something else. And a competent party can protect against / counter stuff that targets the fighter´s will save. There are definitely alot of good feats floating around (i like rhino charge in Sargava companion) that a Fighter can fully leverage. It´s more a matter of a small group of people who LOOK for what class is most optimized who notice stuff to complain about. Normal players can get great mileage out of either class, while destroying APL+4 threats.
Hmmm dont have book here atm but can you tell me what it actually improves?Armor training basically provides +4 on AC which is kinda awesome.It's much better than armor training when you are using a tower shield.
Yea but that replaces armor training x so basically it is same.
If there is enough Dex.