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I see it as the barbarian tapping more into his primal instinct, allowing him some stunt more frequently.
This at expense of defense, or of more energy (rage).
As said above, wizard is stopping time at the moment. Barbarian is...? Tripping someone 1/round and not 1 rage.
ZOMG THE BORKENNN!
Hindsight is a Wonderful thing.
Perhaps paizo should have said at 17 a barb is immune to fatigue and all 1/rage powers can be used 1/round.
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As long as you realize you'll be hurting the barbarian from a mechanical standpoint. If you run a lot long combats, those lost rounds will start meaning something. And then it might invite an unwelcome debate why the DM choose to overrule the book, especially if this is not brought up before the character is made.I hate surprise house rules, because often times they are direct bad reactions to something that was previously not realized, but perfectly legal. Like Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper in 3.5
It all depend if you go with Quandry opinion that you pay to keep the rage going on from the last turn, then you switch it off and then on again to use a "once for rage power", and so you spend 2 rage round if you do that, or if you think that the rage "goes off" automatically if you don't maintain it and so you don't spend rage round at the start of the new round.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action ...
As far as I can see unless the barbarian stop her rage at the end of her action in round 1 and restart it at the beginning of her action at the beginning of round 2 Quandry is right.
To get the rage advantage while using AoO and other off turn abilities she will be burning an extra rage round every time she stop and restart it.
Barbarians starting or stopping there rage is a free action, not a swift, you get limitless free actions in a round, on your turn. So a barbarian at the beginning of his turn ends the previous rounds rage, and starts a new round of rage, only costing him one rage per round.
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Barbarians starting or stopping there rage is a free action, not a swift, you get limitless free actions in a round, on your turn. So a barbarian at the beginning of his turn ends the previous rounds rage, and starts a new round of rage, only costing him one rage per round.The problem is this. The next round starts at the beginning of your turn, before you can do any action. Therefor, at the beginning of the barbarians turn he is raging and is charged a round of rage. Then as his first action he turns it off and then back on, charging himself another round of rage. It will cost 2 rage rounds, but that's not a bad deal to get all your 1/rage goodies back.
I think the only way to be charged only one rage round per round is to turn it on at the beginning of your turn and then turn it off at the end. This unfortunately is not a great idea, too much is lost by not raging.
Ah I see. Yeah that's basically using 2 rounds for 1 round of rage. That's fine. Don't know why I didn't see that.
I'd probably do the same as I do want my rage advantages between my rounds. Maybe every once in a while I'll take a chance and go start/end on the same round if I think I need rages.
If we are going with charging the Barb two rages per round for using the Tireless Rage ability then i suppose we could imagine an attack routine like this....
Pounce [if you will] attack fire off Suprise Accuracy plus Powerful Blow, next attack gets a[crit] so Mighty Swing. Aha good as time as any drop Rage,reactivate rage now use [on third attack] Suprise Accuracy and Mighty Blow, final attack is Trip with Strength Surge if required. As rage powers are per rage not round this would all seem legal as well??
I dont think Barbs really want this but unless we consider the free action to be small enough that it's time falls to a limit, and we can go to one rage/round then....
Perhaps there are reasons to have only one rage/round chargeable!
Okay so im missing something here with this whole off/on switch because after you turn it off you are fatigued and can't rage for at least two more turns so is this strategy only viable after Tireless Rage or what?? I feel like im missing something here.
You are perfectly right.. up until level 17. Read the relevant class feature, Tireless Rage.
This is why i said the most impressive capstone of barbarians is level 17, not 20.
The problem is this. The next round starts at the beginning of your turn, before you can do any action.
Where do you see this rule?
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Okay so im missing something here with this whole off/on switch because after you turn it off you are fatigued and can't rage for at least two more turns so is this strategy only viable after Tireless Rage or what?? I feel like im missing something here.You are perfectly right.. up until level 17. Read the relevant class feature, Tireless Rage.
This is why i said the most impressive capstone of barbarians is level 17, not 20.
Whew okay, I thought there was some big secret i have been missing all along...thanks
It`s actually pretty clear by RAW.
All 1-round (or n-round) duration effects end JUST BEFORE the subsequent round on the Init turn they were started on. If this principle isn`t understood, hundreds of other effects would have the same problem.
I think people get hung up because THEY as players are focused on game mechanics, so they think everybody in the game world must also be, and be aware of the exact details of those mechanics. What is the problem with a Barbarian focusing more on offense than defense for one round, or vice-versa? Aren`t there already a bunch of Feats and Rage Powers which work on the same premise (Combat Expertise, Reckless Abandon)? Like I wrote, FROM LEVEL 1 the rules ALREADY envision using multiple Rages per battle, so increasing the frequency of these separate rages is just a very minor deal in the scope of things, certainly when compared to Pearls of Power, not to mention other Classes` Capstones.
I DO think that trying to `cycle` Rage TWO TIMES per round (to gain on- and off-turn benefits, at double cost) is not RAI (on similar basis to you can`t take infinite number of speaking actions in one round), and it would be nice to have word from Paizo confirming that. Even if it were allowed, it really isn`t the worst thing in the world, IMHO. You can use Come and Get Me round after round, after all, and I don`t think that`s signifigantly less powerful.
I`ve ALWAYS played with this in effect, and I don`t think it`s all that disruptive. Even when I CAN I`m just not all that motivated to `Re-Rage every Round` because I`m missing out on half the benefits... Since it`s pretty easy to pick up SEVERAL 1/Rage powers, you might as well use them all before `re-starting` Rage, since that is really the most `efficient` approach. In actual effect, it`s something that lets you pull off 1/Rage Powers TWICE per SOME battles, not EVERY ROUND like people seem to assume here.
I also don`t see any flavor issues...
Rage already lets you selectively Rage or not Rage per Round, so going in and out of Rage isn`t disruptive to thatg, you`re just acting appropriately to NOT BEING FATIGUED... In fact, it can be MORE flavorful if you look at it as `waves` of Rage approaching and receding. WHY NOT look at it that way? Nothing forces anybody to visualize that their character`s self-image includes `light switch` mechanical abilities. That`s also what I don`t understand about complaints like this, where people claim some conflict of rules and fluff, but then refuse to `visualize` things in the way that IS compatable between those.
It`s actually pretty clear by RAW.
All 1-round (or n-round) duration effects end JUST BEFORE the subsequent round on the Init turn they were started on. If this principle isn`t understood, hundreds of other effects would have the same problem.
I don't think that is true. If it was then power attack would say the effect lasts for one round, not 'until the start of your next turn'.
And if it is clear per RAW, find it.
You seem to be suggest it is clear per RAI, which is fine, but then it comes down to a table by table basis.
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One round of rage is still one round long though, right? Usually if you take a free action to turn rage off you can't turn it back on again in the same round 'cos of the whole fatigued thing, but once you can turn it on again in the same round... isn't it still the same round of rage? Rounds of rage are rounds in duration, not rounds in a gun. Get Tireless Rage and turn the thing on and off as many times as you like in a single round, it still only costs you one round of rage to rage that round, and you can still only use 'once per rage' rage powers once - 'cos it's still the same round of rage... it's still the same 'rage'.
Cycling between rounds is a little trickier - if the rage is turned off for 'no time at all' at some point, is it still the 'same' rage or a 'different' rage? Personally I'd go with - he's level 17, give him a break already! If this is actually the thing to worry about in your high-level game then something took a left turn quite a while back... ;)
IMHO, natch!
Matt Beatty wrote:
"Edit: The only thing I can consider would substantiate my claim is the Full-round actions end just before the beginning of your next turn. So a rage round starts when you turn on rage and ends just before your next turn. Therefor at the beginning of your next turn you have started your second round and been charged for it."
The above is patently untrue for Barbs because if rage is ending before the turn fatigue rules would kick in. So the citation may not apply to Barb rage? I still think one has to think of free actions as approaching the limit [in the mathematical sense] of no time and thus allowing single round drawing of rage power duration with the on/off effect.
The Reductio ad Absurdum, to two rage round expenditure/round, is that to every action there is a cost, ie a use of a round of rage, so why not turn rage off/on after every attack? This would "cost" the Barb up to four rounds of rage in a single round, surely not overpowered as the powers are being paid for by rage expenditure.
ps too tired to format the quote ;)
Kindly note that it doesn't say he can end his rage at will...it has to cycle out that round.
He chooses either to continue the rage from last round, or end it. Then, he can choose to start a new rage. This essentially takes place at the start of his turn.
If you charge him a rage point for raging 'into' the next round, you effectively make a one round rage impossible, and you'd get into negative rage points when he runs out of rage points and it's his next round.
Kindly note that Come and Get Me is nothing more then Robilar's Gambit statted up as a Barbarian ability.
Also note that Aldori Swordlords get a superior version of it, and a level sooner.
A level 20 fighter can easily get his walk around AC to 50, and with only slight effort approach 60. Also, a simply cloak of displacement makes those AoO's impossible.
The real advantage to the barbarian is the save mods. Bravery has got to be the single lamest class feature of the FIghter. One level of chevalier gets you immunity to fear, and fighters spend 4 level benefits on it? Riiiiight.
===Aelryinth
A level 20 fighter can easily get his walk around AC to 50, and with only slight effort approach 60. Also, a simply cloak of displacement makes those AoO's impossible.
Why does a cloak of displacement turn off AoOs? 1)It's only total concealment that prevents AoOs which Blur doesn't provide 2)There has been much debate whether Cloak of Displacement actually provides concealment 24/7 or not.
Not picking a fight, just making sure we are all debating with the same facts.
The real advantage to the barbarian is the save mods. Bravery has got to be the single lamest class feature of the FIghter. One level of chevalier gets you immunity to fear, and fighters spend 4 level benefits on it? Riiiiight.
===Aelryinth
Bravery should have been a scalable bonus to will saves, or at least a broader category of saves, "capping" to an IHS effect at higher level. Frankly, the APG has shown us that fighter simply have too few class features once again. :D
Good catch on AOOs and CaGM. Nevertheless, is quite sad that the weaponmaster class answer to a fighting technique is a magic item.
no wait. Is not sad - is really sad.
Also note that Aldori Swordlords get a superior version of it, and a level sooner.===Aelryinth
From SRD:
At 11th level, an Aldori swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach. This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
My Bold. The way I read it the fighter can only counter ONCE using an immediate action. Not superior to CAGM.
CROM!
Never do that again!
Also note that Aldori Swordlords get a superior version of it, and a level sooner.===Aelryinth
From SRD:
At 11th level, an Aldori swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach. This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
My Bold. The way I read it the fighter can only counter ONCE using an immediate action. Not superior to CAGM.
This goes both against what attacks of opportunity are and the flavor of the aldori swordlord (cutting down foes in a whirlwind frenzy of swords). Attacks of opportunity define themselves. If they weren't following the normal rules for AoO's, then it would read,"As an immediate action/Once per round, the Aldori swordlord may attack someone who just hit them with a melee attack', which would take the whole repeatable aspect of AoO's out of the picture.
Your call on which has precedence, AoO's or 'immediate action'. I refuse to believe the barbarian gets a classic fighter ability and no fighters get the same. By citing AoO's, they default to the AoO rules.
It also really cripples the infamous Aldori, heh.
===Aelryinth
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Also note that Aldori Swordlords get a superior version of it, and a level sooner.===Aelryinth
From SRD:
At 11th level, an Aldori swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach. This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
My Bold. The way I read it the fighter can only counter ONCE using an immediate action. Not superior to CAGM.
This goes both against what attacks of opportunity are and the flavor of the aldori swordlord (cutting down foes in a whirlwind frenzy of swords). Attacks of opportunity define themselves. If they weren't following the normal rules for AoO's, then it would read,"As an immediate action/Once per round, the Aldori swordlord may attack someone who just hit them with a melee attack', which would take the whole repeatable aspect of AoO's out of the picture.
Your call on which has precedence, AoO's or 'immediate action'. I refuse to believe the barbarian gets a classic fighter ability and no fighters get the same. By citing AoO's, they default to the AoO rules.
It also really cripples the infamous Aldori, heh.
===Aelryinth
Its a design choice. it works similar to a feat from modern "agile repost" it lets you make an AoO, but only 1 a round.
its a special AoO, and it takes your immediate action.
mmm, another thing getting clarification.
Also, meant Major Cloak of Displacement, grants total conceal, apologies.
Also note that Robilar's and CAGM's biggest melee problem was that the +4 th/dmg to enemies could be turned by someone with expertise into a +4 AC bonus. A raging barbarian could increase this even further.
An Aldori player seeing this stance should go into Defensive Fighting and Expertise for -7 to hit and +10 to AC, +4 dmg. The +4 th and -4 AC for the reckless raging CAGM barbarian means he's still hitting at +1 net, and his AC is now about 58ish or so, meaning the barbarian is going to miss 3/4 of his AoO's, and all of his iteratives.
==Aelryinth
Barbarians starting or stopping there rage is a free action, not a swift, you get limitless free actions in a round, on your turn. So a barbarian at the beginning of his turn ends the previous rounds rage, and starts a new round of rage, only costing him one rage per round.
You do not get unlimited free actions per round.
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Free actions are the province of the DM to adjudicate in a reasonable manner like many things in the game.
For example, talking is a free action within reason.
As far as how I run rage as a free action in my games. You get one free action to start it and one free action to stop it in the same round if you so choose to do so. I do not allow multiple stop and starts. Since adjudicating free actions is ultimately up to the DM, it is both by RAW and RAI for me to choose what you can do with free actions in a given round beyond what free actions are already spelled out.
If a DM wants to allow multiple stops and starts. They can do it within the rules. If a DM only wants to allow one stop or start, he can do that within the rules. If a DM wants to allow one start and one stop as I do, he can do that as well. All are equally viable options for DMs to adjudicate how many free actions they'll allow with rage.
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+1 to Maddigan...
That is exactly how I rule it myself, and how I see it played most often
(amongst those dealing with the issue, rather then ignoring it, possibly because nobody even plays a Barbarian)
It DOES seem like something that should be clarified for PFS purposes at least.
As a tangently aside, how does that happen?
A level 20 fighter can easily get his walk around AC to 50, and with only slight effort approach 60. .
Sword and board fighter. +5 Full Plate (14) +5 tower shield and Shield Focus (10) 18 Dex and Dodge (5) +5 Amulet of Natural Armor (5) +5 Ring of Protection (5)+10 base=49. Boots of Speed for haste means 50. But that's a clunker of a fighter who does *tickle* damage. Make him a Stalwart Defender and give him expertise you can easily crank it to 60. That's pretty nearly the hard cap though.
I have to say that the best idea that has come out for how to deal with Come and Get me has been a cloak of major displacement. Take away the AoO and you take away Come and Get ME.
However, combat does not occur in a vacuum and any character with out a cloak of resistance is leaving themselves open to some serious Save or Suck action from the barbarians friendly neighborhood wizard.
Come and Get Me is a potent, but also easy to deal with ability. I try not to screw my barbarian player when he uses it, but occasionally he needs life made hard on him. He can't just go around and smash everyone.
So I'll toss how I've dealt with Come and Get Me:
1. Reach: Come and Get Me is a very dangerous ability. So enemy warriors taking Lunge or Giant creatures using reach should be a no brainer.
Smart barbarians will counter with Step Up and its subsequent feats. Reach will still be effective for opening attacks and from flying creatures unless the barbarian gets a solid means to fly himself.
2. Grappling: A barbarian's CMD is usually very low if he is using Come and Get Me and other abilities like Reckless Abandon. Anything that provides a bonus to hit adds to CMB and anything that lowers AC lowers CMD. So you can grapple him and make his Come and Get Me fairly useless with a two-handed weapon, the prime weapon choice for barbarians. If he has a one handed weapon, then this tactic doesn't work.
Barbarian will usually counter with a Ring of Freedom of Movement or cleric casting the spell on him.
Strength Surge can help on this one as well since grapplers don't get multiple opportunities to grapple. So grappling isn't hugely effective unless the creature is so unbelievably strong he can hold a raging barbarian easily.
3. Disarm: This is probably the most effective way to deal with a weapon using Come and Get Me Character. You can create disarm specialists that laugh at most CMDs. They can leave the barbarian wandering around without a weapon forever. They also usually have high ACs which make them extraordinarily hard to hit.
I've found this to be the most effective means to deal with a Come and Get Me Barbarian. He usually gives them an immense bonus to disarm him. Any creature can do it by taking a big hit and then taking the barbarian's weapon. The barbarian is usually giving the Disarmer a +4 on the roll as well as taking -2 off his CMD while raging and -5 off his CMD for Reckless Abandon. Giving the disarm specialist a total of +11 on his roll. Disarms can be done in place of a melee attack for multiple attempts.
I don't do this too often as it is mean. But it is the most effective method I've found that a barbarian is not easily able to counter for making Come and Get Me fairly irrelevant.
This week I'm trying a new method. I'm putting him up against a two-weapon warrior with Deadly Defense. I'm not sure how I'm going to adjudicate this.
Every time the barbarian hits, the two-weapon fighter gets an AoO that is an attack with both weapons. So every attack with both weapons sets off another two Come and Get Me AoOs. Which sets off another two AoOs from two-weapon fighter guy and 4 attacks. It should be interesting.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
It will certainly be a QUICK fight- be sure the give the Two Weapon Warrior Stunning Assault (to lay on his AOO'S) and Gtr Penetrating Strike. :)
I still give it to the Barb since come and get me interuppts the TWW attacks. It also depends to how you rule dazing assault
Either 1save per hit (which we found Overpowered- 4saves per full attack)
or
1 Save per Attack routine so:
1 save per full attack
1 save per AOO
This still forces 2 or 3 saves a round when used with CAGM or Deadly Defense. Personally I think it needs FAQ'ing
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This week I'm trying a new method. I'm putting him up against a two-weapon warrior with Deadly Defense. I'm not sure how I'm going to adjudicate this.
Every time the barbarian hits, the two-weapon fighter gets an AoO that is an attack with both weapons. So every attack with both weapons sets off another two Come and Get Me AoOs. Which sets off another two AoOs from two-weapon fighter guy and 4 attacks. It should be interesting.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.
an attack, not an attack for each of his weapons
But who cares at that point. There is a soft limit to max AC too. Its the point at which you have devoted so much to AC that everything else sucks and I just go around you with my superior maneuverability and kill your buddies while laughing at your measly damage.
Couldn't agree more. Which is why I feel AC is largely irrelevant, especially past about level 7-9ish. The cost to raise each source of AC increases geometrically. Past a ring and amulet +2 those are utterly not worth it, and the opportunity cost for wielding a shield is far too high.
I was simply answering the question "how happen?" to the best of my ability.
Seriously? The chance to avoid some iterative attack is worth nothing?
How often do you fight a classed NPC vs. monsters? Monsters typically have multiple attacks at maybe -2 for secondary attacks.
And yeah, it's not worth much. AC is relevant until about level 7-9 depending, at which point the opportunity cost is too high. You're much better off spending your money on getting a really pimp weapon, max cloak of resistance, maybe cloak of displacement (at least that scales), some way to fly/a secondary ranged weapon, and sundry other non-combat things.
Say you're level 7, and you have 23,500g worth of stuff. You're a fighter. You have +2 Full-plate (5800g) +11 AC total, a +2 weapon (8400), Belt of Str +2 a +1 Ring of Protection +1 AC (2000g) and +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2000g). Your AC is, assuming like 14 Dex, about 25. Monsters you're fighting have a little under 50% chance to hit you. You run into some money, about 10k going up to level 8. Do you increase your Ring by +1 (6000), Amulet by +1 (6000), or armor by +1 (5000). Each of these effectively increases your HP by 5%, since monsters hit you 5% less often. Though not really, because spell, and traps, and pits and stuff bypass your AC entirely. And those pesky touch attacks. So if HP is important, increase your Con. Buy a Con item for 4k or so, at 8th level it gives you 8 HP. Assuming average rolls and a con of 16, you just added 10% to your HP in all scenarios for less than half the price of doing the same through AC, with the added benefit of a +1 on fort saves.
As items get more expensive (+5 ring is 50k, right?) the discrepancy gets bigger.