By ”other rage powers” do you mean other Totem rage powers or do you mean they can only pick the following rage powers:
I believe they mean, beyond not being allowed to possess two totem lines simultaneously, it is an opportunity cost: by taking a totem power at level 6, for example, you lose the ability to take some other rage power that level instead.
Edit: minor vocabulary changes to clarify meaning.
Yes, I was referring to the opportunity cost, i.e. with the Rage Power from Level X (or Feat) you could have chosen another Rage Power... Which isn`t different than any other Rage Power`s opportunity cost.
There aren`t any class features that are replaced like other Archetypes do, and ultimately no real reason the word `Archetype` should be invoked in this case (given it`s other usages in the rules). But it doesn`t make the game unplayable, so I´m not that bothered about it (I personally was never confused by it`s usage, but I can see how it could be potentially).
@Zark: I´d say that I personally wouldn`t have taken the `aghast at disregard of RAW` line as any personal affront. It was a bit of a dramatic take, but nothing really aimed against you personally, nor anything to qualify as being a jerk... At most it would be what is called `a tease`. IMHO. I think people were taken aback by your tendency to not acknowledge or down-play information that is tangential to your agenda... which doesn`t contribute to a discussion. I know that I always try to mention both sides or interpretations, and make clear where things lie in my opinion, but acknowledge that others may have different preferences. You obviously did try to do that, but I think it was just a case of `too little, too late`. Fortunately, we can all try again to be better! :-)
Pretty sure that in Pathfinder they've cracked down hard on Pounce. Any class that gets it can only use it with natural weapons, and that includes barbs.
For monsters its a moot point, they only have natural attacks if they've got Pounce.
Now if you bust open 3.5, sure you can break stuff.
==Aelryinth
Yes, I was referring to the opportunity cost, i.e. with the Rage Power from Level X (or Feat) you could have chosen another Rage Power... Which isn`t different than any other Rage Power`s opportunity cost.
OK.
@Zark: I´d say that I personally wouldn`t have taken the `aghast at disregard of RAW` line as any personal affront. It was a bit of a dramatic take, but nothing really aimed against you personally, nor anything to qualify as being a jerk... At most it would be what is called `a tease`. IMHO. I think people were taken aback by your tendency to not acknowledge or down-play information that is tangential to your agenda... which doesn`t contribute to a discussion.
Good points, but subtle, ”tendency to not acknowledge or down-play information that is tangential to a agenda”and being diplomatic goes both ways.
I'm not upset by anyone. It's the internet.I don't have an agenda by the way. I like barbs,...now, after the APG. The sucked in the Core book, but the AGP fixed them. I still think they are not the best damage dealers, but they don't have to be. When it comes to damage they are good enough and thats fine by me. On top of that they get 4 skills per level, and get great class skills and they got a lot of cool abilites. They are just fine.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Pretty sure that in Pathfinder they've cracked down hard on Pounce. Any class that gets it can only use it with natural weapons, and that includes barbs.
For monsters its a moot point, they only have natural attacks if they've got Pounce.
Now if you bust open 3.5, sure you can break stuff.
==Aelryinth
+1
hmmm what other classes get pounce? Are there any other weapon using classes with pounce? It seems kinds a stretch to say that because animals pounce with natural weapons, all creatures must pounce with natural weapons. [for example some animals dig with their claws,therefore Dwarfs Orcs and Humans who dig are limited to only using their claws] Sentience has a purpose!
Mobile Fighter`s Rapid Attack/WW Blitz is equal or better to Pounce (no Charge requirement), along with 2WF and Dawnflower Dervish Fighter Archetypes are ones I can think of off the top of my head that accomplish `mobile full attack` for melee... Also Battle Oracle and Magus Spell Combat w/ Force Hook spell.
I`ve never seen any suggestion (besides here) that RAI was for requiring Natural Attacks only.
Mobile Fighter gets better than Pounce eventually (losing Charge requirement),
along with several others (2WF, Dawnflower Dervish) I can think of off the top of my head (Oracle as well).
I`ve never seen any suggestion (besides here) that RAI was for requiring Natural Attacks only.
I've been wrong before, but I've ben right before too. Hit the faq.
It isn`t really something that I think needs a FAQ, but I will hit it anyways...
Just remember to hit the FAQ button on my posts :-)
Seriously FAQ this? Dont you think Paizo would have written in the Beast Totem line something like: "like all pounce abilities the Barbarian Pounce is only useable with natural weapons..." Give them some credit, note the other pounce-like abilities using weapons
I`m pretty sure that Bestiary Pounce itself doesn`t have any manufactured weapon limitations...
I.e. if you Polymorphed or Anthroporphic Animal´ed a Lion,
they would still have the Pounce ability and it would apply to wielded weapons.
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Having played the 13th level Barbarian with combat reflexes, 16 dex and "come and get me", my Barbarian could out damage any BBEG up to 16th level.
His normal damage per round was in the 150-200 point rage without a crit...it was sick. He had a +18 willpower save during rage, +14 reflex and a +21 Fort save.
I was able to finish off the BBEG in Legacy of Fire in 2 rounds....of course he almost dropped me in the exchange, thank god for HEAL at 17th (150hp's) level due to incense of mediation...
just looked at the Beast Totem Greater power, which is POunce.
While it keeps alluding to claw damage, there's actually nothing in the description that limits your pounce attacks to your claws, and of course, nothing in Pounce itself that does.
I stand corrected. Take beast totem, ignore the claws, use a Weapon, get Pounce at level 10. You waste a Rage Power, but Pounce is pretty much worth it.
They should have restricted it explicitly to natural weapons. Don't know why they didn't.
Also, Rage powers are the equivalent of feats. Don't know why a fighter has to be an archetype and not just take a feat tree to get a similar benefit.
===Aelryinth
Having played the 13th level Barbarian with combat reflexes, 16 dex and "come and get me", my Barbarian could out damage any BBEG up to 16th level.
His normal damage per round was in the 150-200 point rage without a crit...it was sick. He had a +18 willpower save during rage, +14 reflex and a +21 Fort save.
I was able to finish off the BBEG in Legacy of Fire in 2 rounds....of course he almost dropped me in the exchange, thank god for HEAL at 17th (150hp's) level due to incense of mediation...
You were using Superstitious? ANd failed the Will save? Cause if you made it, you got no healing at all...and you HAD to make the will save...
And yes, Robilar's builds rocked in 3.5, and are alive and well in PF now.
==Aelryinth
Kudos to Aelryinth! I appreciate your gracious response re Pounce. I agree that Heal with Superstitious would not seem to allow a save and healing for half.... Barbs need cures while raging not Heal!
Also, Rage powers are the equivalent of feats. Don't know why a fighter has to be an archetype and not just take a feat tree to get a similar benefit.
All the Totems are mutually exclusive... So I definitely wouldn`t say this is the same as some `Feat Tree` that ANY Fighter can take (along with any other Feat trees). Beast Totem is probably the most useful totem for PCs currently, but I expect Ultimate Combat to make each tree more enticing on it`s own, as well as add new ones to make it hard to choose :-)
Question: Why should they have restricted Beast Totem Pounce to Nat. Weapons? When Bestiary Pounce doesn´t? How do you read BT:G to `allude` to claw damage re: Pounce? It mentions claws only as an additional, unrelated sentence starting with `in addition`.
Pounce only exists on monsters normally. There are no spells, feats, or other abilities that give away Pounce. It is ONLY referenced in a Beast Totem build that uses natural weapons. You're led to a cause and effect relationship, is all.
Pounce is one of the most powerful effects in the game. The ability to do a full attack on a charge basically allows Melee characters the ability to move and do full damage every round. You know, like casters can. It's the core ability of many, many builds in 3.5 once barbs could swap out Fast Movement for Pounce with level 2 lion totem from Complete Champion. Uberchargers became standard builds.
Note that the Mobile Fighter and Dervish give up their Highest attack when moving and doing multiple attacks...or, lose one attack and the rest are at -5. That is nowhere near the power of Pounce at 10th. Sure, at 20 the Mobile Fighter gets a great capstone...when the Barb's been playing with it for TEN LEVELS.
I'm just not seeing the justification.
==Aelryinth
I´d also say the 2 Weapon Warrior is on par with this, since they are getting 2 attacks at their highest BAB (w/ max Weapon Training) as a Standard Action, not to mention getting 2WF AoO`s (and 2 Weapon Rend applies to all of those presumably). Magus can also use Force Hook with a Full Attack from Level 7 (though it likely provokes an AoO, since it isn`t your own movement you can Tumble for). Oracles don`t get `real` Full Attack+Move until 20th, but have the Surprising Charge from Level 1 (which can also be used defensively to avoid things like Pouncing Barbarians), albeit only several times per day. Likewise, Guide Rangers have bonus Move Action w/ Auto-Crit Confirm from 10th level, along with Skirmisher`s double 5` Steps as Swift Action. Maybe Beast Totem`s Pounce can do Pounce better than some of those, but I don`t think the rules are broken just because one class can do something particularly well.
Mostly, I`m surprised people are complaining about it at this late of a juncture, as I have never seen or heard complaints about it since APG was released... And PFS has had this in action for pretty much that entire time with no alteration from Paizo. Pounce only works on a Charge, which can be impeded by many means... breaking the straight-line movement is enough, or difficult terrain like Black Tentacles (or just regular difficult terrain). ...I guess I`m saying that it`s not that there could be no possible justification to have some additional restriction that normal Pounce doesn`t, but that the current wording doesn`t seem particularly problematic to me as-is...
Pounce basically obviates the need for Vital Strike. as long as you can move 10' in a straight line, you can get all your attacks.
It's long been argued that it should be a standard ability of all Melee classes. One of the great things about To9S was giving the melee classes the ability to do full attack damage on standard actions with strikes...it's something the other classes should have had all along, and could only access via Pounce.
If Paizo seriously wants to control the power of Pounce, they should restrict it to natural weapons. Otherwise, they should open it to all classes, and not just some archetypes.
==Aelryinth
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Nearly any martial class can get an ability to move and full attack, usually around 10th level. The magus gets it at 7th level while ranged rangers and paladins get it even earlier. Cavaliers have to wait till level 14, but than, they don't really need it since their charges are devastating even without pounce.
The monk is probably the class most in need of such an ability right now.
Barbarian: Greater Beast Totem
Fighter: Mobile Fighter and Dawnflower Dervish
Cavalier: Mounted Skirmisher feat
Paladin: Mounted Skirmisher feat
Ranger: Mounted Skirmisher feat (can be taken at 10th level with the mounted combat style)
Magus: Force hook charge spell
Druid: Pounce
Clerics, oracles and sorcerers with an animal companion can use Mounted Skirmisher, too.
I removed a post. Please don't evade the profanity filter.
Nearly any martial class can get an ability to move and full attack, usually around 10th level. The magus gets it at 7th level while ranged rangers and paladins get it even earlier. Cavaliers have to wait till level 14, but than, they don't really need it since their charges are devastating even without pounce.
The monk is probably the class most in need of such an ability right now.
Barbarian: Greater Beast Totem
Fighter: Mobile Fighter and Dawnflower Dervish
Cavalier: Mounted Skirmisher feat
Paladin: Mounted Skirmisher feat
Ranger: Mounted Skirmisher feat (can be taken at 10th level with the mounted combat style)
Magus: Force hook charge spell
Druid: Pounce
Clerics, oracles and sorcerers with an animal companion can use Mounted Skirmisher, too.
Of all your examples, only ONE is about a full attack,and that's Mounted Skirmisher. That takes 14th level, and you MUST be mounted...and it's single move speed for a mount, not the double move of a charge, although it is NOT restricted to a straight line.
Dawnflower and Mobile Fighter do NOT get Pounce. They give up an attack, and take the rest at -5 to hit. Distinctly far less effective then Pounce (like, probably half the damage). Mobile Fighter capstones with a better then Pounce effect...at level 20, vs 10.
There are also no Fighter archetypes that overlap, unlike the Barbarian. For a barbarian, he gives up three rage powers and changes a couple things, but after 10th, free to do other things.
So in short, the only real comparison here is Mounted Skirmisher against Greater Beast Totem. Next time you're mounted in a dungeon and can do the same thing the Barbarian has been doing 4 levels ago, that'll be balanced.
===Aelryinth
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Just FYI, Rangers can ignore prereqs so can get Mounted Skirmisher at 10 with the mounted combat fighting style, not sure if Cavalier follows the same rules.
Also, I saw it mentioned that the Skirmisher archetype can get Stag's Leap and move+full attack at level 5
Stag's Leap (Ex): As a free action, the ranger can attempt a running jump without moving 10 feet before the jump.
Probably with a very liberal interpretation of "As a free action" in the above phrase.
As I see it the jump movement don't become a free action. The free action is the fact that it is a stag leap (i.e. a jump that don't need the running start but allow you to jump as you had it).
The distance moved should still count as movement and so if you jump more than 5' you can't make a full attack.
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Of all your examples, only ONE is about a full attack,and that's Mounted Skirmisher. That takes 14th level, and you MUST be mounted...and it's single move speed for a mount, not the double move of a charge, although it is NOT restricted to a straight line.
It might be worth noting, that a single move of a mount might well be more than a double move of a normal character.
Dawnflower and Mobile Fighter do NOT get Pounce. They give up an attack, and take the rest at -5 to hit. Distinctly far less effective then Pounce (like, probably half the damage). Mobile Fighter capstones with a better then Pounce effect...at level 20, vs 10.
They don't take -5 to hit. Read the rules.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish gets the ability to gain an extra attack for a -2 penalty on attack rolls. So, at 15th level, you only take a -2 penalty for moving while full attacking, even while being fatigued.
There are also no Fighter archetypes that overlap, unlike the Barbarian. For a barbarian, he gives up three rage powers and changes a couple things, but after 10th, free to do other things.
This is just wrong, the Dawnflower Dervish can be combined with the Savage Warrior. It's not a combination I would take, but it exists.
So in short, the only real comparison here is Mounted Skirmisher against Greater Beast Totem. Next time you're mounted in a dungeon and can do the same thing the Barbarian has been doing 4 levels ago, that'll be balanced.
That's why you play a small ranger and don't ignore the mounted combat style.
And druids gain pounce much earlier than the barbarian, especially lion and saurian druids who can pouncerake at 6th level.
Dawnflower and Mobile Fighter do NOT get Pounce. They give up an attack, and take the rest at -5 to hit. Distinctly far less effective then Pounce (like, probably half the damage). Mobile Fighter capstones with a better then Pounce effect...at level 20, vs 10.
They don't take -5 to hit. Read the rules.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish gets the ability to gain an extra attack for a -2 penalty on attack rolls. So, at 15th level, you only take a -2 penalty for moving while full attacking, even while being fatigued.Pretty much the reason the Dawnflower Dervish is probably the best type of fighter, bar none.
Getting Rapid Attack, Normal weapon training (Falchion, Bows- no special conditions need to be.met) and Lighting Strike (that's 6two handed attacks, with boots of speed vs a TWF who suffers the same -2 to hit for one handed PA damage and had to blow 3-5 feats to do it) has it topping and builds DPR with no feats expended (so room to archery switch hit).
I'll be suprised if it doesnt top AMIB's new DPR thread.
stuff
Still, with the exception of druids in wildshape they don't get pounce. And when druids use pounce their BAB don't grant them iterative attacks.
Mounted Skirmisher is very good, but mounted combat is hard to play and is very campaign depened.
Dawnflower and Mobile Fighter give up their best attack so it's nothing close to Pounce with weapon.
Battle Oracle capstone ability is move + full attack. That's even better than pounce with weapons but:
A) how many AP runs to level 20? Most end much earliere. 17 or even earlier.
B) The oracle isn't a full BAB class.
It would be really nice to have an official answer on pounce with weapons, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
It's good, true, but you can use it only once or maximum twice per fight, unless you are level 17.
Even if you are level 17, it's up to your DM to say if it fine to end and start your rage at will.
True the barbarian becomes great at level 17, but you have to wait 16 level until you get there and all AP doesn't even run as high as level 17.
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@STR Ranger:
Could you please fix the quotations? It was Aelryinth who wrote that, not me.
I also think that the Dawnflower Dervish is probably the best fighter archetype, in fact, I made a thread about it a while ago
The reason why it didn't top in the DPR thread is pretty simple, it doesn't get those abilities before levels 11 and 15.
You lose the ability to move at full speed in heavy and medium armor, but a single level of oracle of metal should fix that.
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Dawnflower and Mobile Fighter do NOT get Pounce. They give up an attack, and take the rest at -5 to hit. Distinctly far less effective then Pounce (like, probably half the damage). Mobile Fighter capstones with a better then Pounce effect...at level 20, vs 10.They don't take -5 to hit. Read the rules.
Also, the Dawnflower Dervish gets the ability to gain an extra attack for a -2 penalty on attack rolls. So, at 15th level, you only take a -2 penalty for moving while full attacking, even while being fatigued.
Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a Dawnflower dervish can combine a full attack with a single move. She must forgo the attack at her highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during her movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3.
They give up the best attack. For a two handed weapon fighter that mean that he get to attack only with his iterative attacks.
When she gets to 15th level she get one extra attack at her highest bonus but get a -2 to all of her attacks. So if she move she get to make the normal number of attacks for her level but with a -2 penalty.
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They give up the best attack. For a two handed weapon fighter that mean that he get to attack only with his iterative attacks.
When she gets to 15th level she get one extra attack at her highest bonus but get a -2 to all of her attacks. So if she move she get to make the normal number of attacks for her level but with a -2 penalty.
Yes, that's how it works. Boots of Speed are also nice for a Dawnflower Dervish.
I wouldn't say that Pounce is better, though. Granted, Pounce plus Spirited Charge is certainly nice, as is the ability to get a full attack in a surprise round and while being staggered, but there are also some severe limitations, like straight lines or the inability to charge through difficult terrain or while being fatigued. You are also limited to attack one creature while Rapid Attack allows you to use each attack against a different target.
Giving up your primary attack and taking the rest is mechanically -1 attack and -5 TH with the rest.
That doth suck. So, no, I did it exactly right. Understand what I wrote.
Archetypes that give absolutely no benefits to one another effectively do not stack. I don't see benefits of enhancing natural attacks working too well with a scimitar build.
The Dawnflower Dervish gets a Half-Pounce at 10th. Lose your best attack, take your iteratives (meaning, it's worthless until 11th, great job!)
At 15th, they basically 'get the attack back', but now all attacks are at -2 to hit...which still basically means they are at about 80% of a Pounce...
Except for the fact the archetype is in light or no armor, and is designed to not use a shield, and loses out on some armor training, so they tend to have an AC 3 to 10 points lower then a normal fighter...and are encouraged to go Dex builds, so they aren't going to Two hand, either.
Really, they are only effective if they don't use their level 10 ability, and just get the extra attack 'flurry' at 15th...but it blows the hole in their whole mobility argument, by something that can be emulated with a single feat in TWF. Sure, they can charge over dunes and sands...wahoo. Really not impressive for higher levels.
---
And Mounted Skirmisher /= Pounce. There are many places you can't take a Mount, you aren't always going to fight on a mount, and not everybody is going to be a halfling on a war dog or a gnome on a dire badger. And yes, the Mount may well have more move then a slow fighter...except Pounce is a charge, which is a double move, and Boots of Striding and later Fly spells take care of the base movement problem, so that's not an argument either (esp post-10th). The Skirmisher benefit is that it is NOT a charge, and so you don't have to move in a straight line, NOT the higher speed of the Mount (esp at the levels you take it at).
If Mounted Skirmisher were available at level 2, then you might have cause for a movement argument...except being able to do the full attack wouldn't be that useful unless you were the horse or wielding two weapons pre-6th level.
==Aelryinth
Except for the fact the archetype is in light or no armor, and is designed to not use a shield, and loses out on some armor training, so they tend to have an AC 3 to 10 points lower then a normal fighter...and are encouraged to go Dex builds, so they aren't going to Two hand, either.
So The Dawnflower Dervish can't use heavy armor?
The Archetype is a light/no armor wielder...mechanically, they can. However, heavier armor cuts into their movement rates.
Dervish Dance is specifically designed for the scimitar, uses Dex instead of str, and doesn't let you use your free hand.
They also lose 2 pts of armor training.
Light armor is -2 AC over heavy.
2 pts of armor training is 2 pts of AC.
No shield is 1-6+ pts of AC (potentially -13!).
So, in reality, they are going to have -3 to -10 AC vs a normal fighter. On top of their penalties to hit, this isn't going to work out well for them...no wonder Taldan kicks their arses. Mobility doesn't mean squat if I can still hit you harder and more often then you hit me.
==Aelryinth
which is why the penalty ranges from -3 to -10, depending how far they go into the archetype.
==Aelryinth
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I'm a little confused... The Dawnflower Dervish archetype has no restrictions on the armour or shields used by the character. All it loses (armour-wise) is replacing armour training 1 to 4 with other stuff. Armour training itself doesn't grant you any extra AC, it just allows you to access more of your Dex bonus to AC, if you happen to have any. So how does the Dawnflower Dervish end up with such a low AC in comparison to a vanilla Fighter? Is the assumption that both characters will have Dex scores granting a bonus 4 over their armour's max Dex bonus to AC? Doesn't that still mean that a Dawnflower Dervish, all things being equal, is still only a maximum of 4 AC behind any other Fighter?
Or is the assumption that the Dawnflower Dervish has to take the Dervish Dance Feat (which they don't, of course, although it's in the 'suggested' Feats for the archetype), which is another kettle of fish completely?
A human fighter with 13 Dex can max out the Dex allowed bonus for mithral full plate (+7, 24 Dex req) with +5 inherent bonuses and a +6 Dex booster.
I was being generous, it should actually be -4 to -13. Remember, we are talking all other things being equal...the Dervish is going to give up 4 pts of AC to the fighter who doesn't get their movement/attack abilities.
If they go into the Archetype, light armor max is 2 pts less AC+Dex then Heavy Armor (and MUCH more Dex intensive, esp. early on, so lower AC early in career).
If they go one handed for Dervish Dance, they lose shield benefits, which is another +1 to +7 (potentially +13).
So, the penalty to AC is -4 to potentially -19, depending on how you treat the shield. They are giving up that AC for their movement abilities.
==Aelryinth
A human fighter with 13 Dex can max out the Dex allowed bonus for mithral full plate (+7, 24 Dex req) with +5 inherent bonuses and a +6 Dex booster.
I was being generous, it should actually be -4 to -13. Remember, we are talking all other things being equal...the Dervish is going to give up 4 pts of AC to the fighter who doesn't get their movement/attack abilities.
If they go into the Archetype, light armor max is 2 pts less AC+Dex then Heavy Armor (and MUCH more Dex intensive, esp. early on, so lower AC early in career).
If they go one handed for Dervish Dance, they lose shield benefits, which is another +1 to +7 (potentially +13).
So, the penalty to AC is -4 to potentially -19, depending on how you treat the shield. They are giving up that AC for their movement abilities.
==Aelryinth
I don't buy what you say. No, they don't lose anything if they haven't planned to get it in the first place.
A WHF don't use a shield so no big deal if a scimitar wielder don'y have a shield.
Also, It sounds like you're talking about the Archetype as a PrC. It's not. You can't play a Archetype fighter and then multiclass info a core fighter. If I missred you I'm sorry.
I'm not at all understanding your logic. A DD will have an escalating AC disadvantage to a core Fighter, absolutely. It gets worse if you go with the flavor text archetype.
==Aelryinth
I'm not at all understanding your logic. A DD will have an escalating AC disadvantage to a core Fighter, absolutely. It gets worse if you go with the flavor text archetype.
==Aelryinth
They don't lose anything if they haven't planned to get it in the first place.
I want to play a THF. Shoudl I flay a core fighter or a Dawnflower Dervish.
I plan to start with dex 13.
I don't lose my shield bonus if playing a DD because the shield was never an option in the first place.
The campaign runs to level 15 or 16 and we don't get enough cash to get +5 inherent bonuses and a +6 Dex booster.
I don't lose what I never could get in the first place.
just looked at the Beast Totem Greater power, which is POunce.
While it keeps alluding to claw damage, there's actually nothing in the description that limits your pounce attacks to your claws, and of course, nothing in Pounce itself that does.
I stand corrected. Take beast totem, ignore the claws, use a Weapon, get Pounce at level 10. You waste a Rage Power, but Pounce is pretty much worth it.
They should have restricted it explicitly to natural weapons. Don't know why they didn't.
Also, Rage powers are the equivalent of feats. Don't know why a fighter has to be an archetype and not just take a feat tree to get a similar benefit.
===Aelryinth
A lycanthrope retains all the special attacks, qualities, and abilities of the base creature. In hybrid or animal form it gains the special attacks, qualities, and abilities of the base animal. A lycanthrope also gains low-light vision, scent, and the following:
Hybrid form weretigers can pounce with weapons.
Though with a weretiger rogue with sneak attack, it's just as nasty to pounce with natural weapons and rake.
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This...
If they go into the Archetype, light armor max is 2 pts less AC+Dex then Heavy Armor (and MUCH more Dex intensive, esp. early on, so lower AC early in career).
... is what confuses me.
There's no limit on the type of armour or shields the Dawnflower Dervish can use, so what do you mean by 'go into the archetype'? If you mean 'base the character on the fluff text', then sure, light armour isn't as much AC as heavy armour... but that's the exact same choice any other Fighter makes - nothing in the Dawnflower Dervish archetype itself forces that choice upon the character, and none of the archetype's class features rely on wearing a certain type or armour, or not.
When quoting the AC difference between two differing characters, I'd suggest it's a good idea to seperate the fluff from the crunch, just to make it clear to everyone involved.
As far as I can tell, the only potential AC loss for the Dawnflower Dervish over the vanilla fighter is up to 4 AC from excess Dexterity, if the character happens to have that much Dexterity in the first place. So rather than -4 to -13 (or -19) AC compared to a vanilla Fighter, in actual crunch terms the archetype has -0 to -4 AC compared to a vanilla Fighter. Whether other choices made when creating such a character further reduce the AC is neither here nor there, IMHO - the archetype itself is -0 to -4 AC due to the loss of the armour training feature, and that's it.
Whether other choices made when creating such a character further reduce the AC is neither here nor there, IMHO - the archetype itself is -0 to -4 AC due to the loss of the armour training feature, and that's it.
+1
That is, if he chooses to have a high dex
For what its worth...from James thread.
Pounce works with all weapons, manufactured or not. You can't take iteratie attacks with a pounce, of course, and in most cases that won't be an option anyway since the vast majority of creatures that have pounce are not manufactured weapon users.
My bold.
edit twice: turns out I was wrong, sort of ;-)but since you can't take iteratie attacks with pounce, it isn't that über, but it's still good.
The way I read, a hasted barbarian with a great axe would still get her haste attack and if she got the animal fury ability she would be able to use that one as well.
One axe attack at her highest BAB, next an bite attack at BAB -5 and then the haste attack with the axe at full BAB.
Not bad.
Quoting James Jacobs on rules matters is just not that smart an idea IMHO.
You might notice that he makes absolutely no effort to reconcile the fact that Pounce accomplishes a `Full Attack` with the fact that if you are using Manufactured Weapons, Iterative Attacks are exactly the result of a Full Attack.
And btw, I have totally lost this thread... If I have it right, Aelrynth is bouncing around between insisting that unless other classes have EXACTLY the same feature that Barbs CAN get that there is a major problem (meanwhile thousands of PRPG games succesfully continue), and using PVP comparisons between various archetypes to either show that move+multi-attack options available to other classes are bad compared to Barbarian, or bad vs. each other for some reason (for some extraneous reason like comparative AC levels), along with other archetypes being able to allegedly neutralize a Barbarian `no matter what`. When did PVP become the agreed measurement? What ever happened to non-Pounce Barbarians? I mean, there`s still alot of cool stuff you can do with Feats/Rage Powers that doesn`t involve the Beast Totem chain, or Pouncing. I`m sure the answer to that involves some comparison to a specific archetype, but last time I checked you can still `win` an AP without using a Beast Totem Barbarian. ...In any case, I think some of these issues would do better in a different thread.