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This week I'm trying a new method. I'm putting him up against a two-weapon warrior with Deadly Defense. I'm not sure how I'm going to adjudicate this.
Every time the barbarian hits, the two-weapon fighter gets an AoO that is an attack with both weapons. So every attack with both weapons sets off another two Come and Get Me AoOs. Which sets off another two AoOs from two-weapon fighter guy and 4 attacks. It should be interesting.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.an attack, not an attack for each of his weapons
You might want to read the Equal Opportunity ability of the 2WW archetype, just FYI.
And I'd put decent odds on a two-weapon type having more Dex than even a CaGM barbarian, which means the barb is likely to run out of available AoOs faster than the fighter will.
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Seriously? The chance to avoid some iterative attack is worth nothing?How often do you fight a classed NPC vs. monsters? Monsters typically have multiple attacks at maybe -2 for secondary attacks.
Often.
And yeah, it's not worth much. AC is relevant until about level 7-9 depending, at which point the opportunity cost is too high. You're much better off spending your money on getting a really pimp weapon, max cloak of resistance, maybe cloak of displacement (at least that scales), some way to fly/a secondary ranged weapon, and sundry other non-combat things.Say you're level 7, and you have 23,500g worth of stuff. You're a fighter. You have +2 Full-plate (5800g) +11 AC total, a +2 weapon (8400), Belt of Str +2 a +1 Ring of Protection +1 AC (2000g) and +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2000g). Your AC is, assuming like 14 Dex, about 25. Monsters you're fighting have a little under 50% chance to hit you. You run into some money, about 10k going up to level 8. Do you increase your Ring by +1 (6000), Amulet by +1 (6000), or armor by +1 (5000). Each of these effectively increases your HP by 5%, since monsters hit you 5% less often. Though not really, because spell, and traps, and pits and stuff bypass your AC entirely. And those pesky touch attacks. So if HP is important, increase your Con. Buy a Con item for 4k or so, at 8th level it gives you 8 HP. Assuming average rolls and a con of 16, you just added 10% to your HP in all scenarios for less than half the price of doing the same through AC, with the added benefit of a +1 on fort saves.
As items get more expensive (+5 ring is 50k, right?) the discrepancy gets bigger.
You decrease incoming damage by 30%, not 15%.
50% of enemy attack hitting become 35%. A reduction of 15 points over 50 is a 30% reduction.
You might want to read the Equal Opportunity ability of the 2WW archetype, just FYI.
Nice. I stand corrected.
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I've found this to be the most effective means to deal with a Come and Get Me Barbarian. He usually gives them an immense bonus to disarm him. Any creature can do it by taking a big hit and then taking the barbarian's weapon. The barbarian is usually giving the Disarmer a +4 on the roll as well as taking -2 off his CMD while raging and -5 off his CMD for Reckless Abandon. Giving the disarm specialist a total of +11 on his roll. Disarms can be done in place of a melee attack for multiple attempts.
This bring up something I`ve never been clear about,
and has never been answered when I post about it here on the boards.Normally, using CMBs without `Improved X` Feats provoke an AoO whose damage increases the DC/target CMD. Now, what I`m not sure of, is if a Barbarian has Come and Get Me, which makes attacks (including CMBs) provoke, does that mean any dmg should increase the DC of the provoking maneuver? This isn`t relevant to AoO`s for moving before attacking or anything, but CaGM AoO`s are directly provoked by the attack itself.
This also goes for any other ability which `forces` attacks to provoke, specifically the Pugilist ability says Grapples always provoke AoO`s (and that ability is specifically dealing with the AoO from CMB check, as opposed to CaGM which doesn`t specifically mention the PARTICULAR AoO related to Maneuvers with the dmg>CMD aspect).
I can see two ways to deal with it: the AoO from non-Improved Maneuvers is `special`, and thus `generic` AoO`s, even if triggered by the Maneuver attack, don`t apply DMG to CMD (though as above, Pugilist vs. Grapple seems to specifically evoke the `normal` CMB AoO).
OR... the general CMB rules can be read as saying (all) AoO`s triggered by the CMB apply DMG to CMD, in which case CaGM would qualify.
The dmg>DC aspect seems very similar to Casting being disrupted, and if the CMB is itself provoking (as opposed to moving before an attack, etc), it seems reasonable for the DC/CMD to be affected... ???
You decrease incoming damage by 30%, not 15%.50% of enemy attack hitting become 35%. A reduction of 15 points over 50 is a 30% reduction.
No. Every point of increase is 1 higher the opponent must roll. On a d20 there are 20 possibilities, each thus representing 5% of the probability spectrum.
Look, this isn't the first time you've said something utterly baffling and brain-frying that I've tried to respond reasonably about. In fact I think that's all you post. I'm just going to do my best to ignore you from now on for my own sanity's sake.
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You decrease incoming damage by 30%, not 15%.50% of enemy attack hitting become 35%. A reduction of 15 points over 50 is a 30% reduction.
No. Every point of increase is 1 higher the opponent must roll. On a d20 there are 20 possibilities, each thus representing 5% of the probability spectrum.
Look, this isn't the first time you've said something utterly baffling and brain-frying that I've tried to respond reasonably about. In fact I think that's all you post. I'm just going to do my best to ignore you from now on for my own sanity's sake.
Guy A do 1 point of damage each attack.
He it 50% of the time vs AC 11.He do 100 attacks.
he do a total of 50 hit point of damage
You increase your AC to 14.
He hit 35% of the time.
Still 100 attacks.
He do 35 hit point of damage.
He has dealt 15 hp less damage.
15/50=0.3
That is a reduction of 30% of incoming damage.
Got it?
To put it another way, if someone hit you only with a 19 or 20 and you increase your AC by a +1 you have halved the damage you get by that enemy.
In play it is not so linear as you aren't hit 50% of the time by all enemies, but unless you are hit only with a 20 or the enemy can hit you with a 1 and still has modifier to spare, every increase in AC give you more than a 5% reduction in incoming damage.
stuff
I see what you're doing, but it's not the right way to figure stuff, because not everything is going to hit you 50% of the time. What if something hits you 75% of the time, and a +3 AC changes that to 60% of the time. Then its 15/75 or .2 or 20% not 30%. By your measurement AC is less effective against enemies that are more likely to hit you.
The difference between being hit 50 times and 35 times is not a 30% difference but 15, as you are preventing an additional 15% of the attacks coming at you, regardless of how good you were previously.
Furthermore, as I was saying, armor bonuses don't stop other effects against you like spell damage or touch attacks, so AC is not an effective increase in health at all.
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stuff
I see what you're doing, but it's not the right way to figure stuff, because not everything is going to hit you 50% of the time. What if something hits you 75% of the time, and a +3 AC changes that to 60% of the time. Then its 15/75 or .2 or 20% not 30%. By your measurement AC is less effective against enemies that are more likely to hit you.
The difference between being hit 50 times and 35 times is not a 30% difference but 15, as you are preventing an additional 15% of the attacks coming at you, regardless of how good you were previously.
Furthermore, as I was saying, armor bonuses don't stop other effects against you like spell damage or touch attacks, so AC is not an effective increase in health at all.
Increasing hit point was your example.
Each of these effectively increases your HP by 5%, since monsters hit you 5% less often.
I did say "decreasing incoming damage".
And yes, as explained above, the increase is less effective if you are hit with very low numbers, but it still decrease the damage you get and unless you are hit on a dice roll of 1 with modifier to spare or only on a roll of 20 the reduction in incoming damage is (from attacks that require a to hit) is always above 5%.
Slightly above if the reduction is from being hit 95% of the time to being hit 90%, a lot if it is from being hit 10% of the time to 5% of the time.
You feel that the extra protection is not worth the GP cost, I disagree.
Probably it is more dependant on what enemies we are used to meet than on some "absolute truth".
Different gaming stiles.
Side note:
the 15%-30% comment in the first post is born by a hastyreading of your post, I thought you were adding all the items you cited.
As you were speaking of a +1 only AC increase it should have been:
"you get to reduce incoming damage by 10%, not by 5%"
That is using your example of being hit roughly 50% of the time before the AC increase.
Furthermore, as I was saying, armor bonuses don't stop other effects against you like spell damage or touch attacks, so AC is not an effective increase in health at all.Certain armor bonuses can stop touch attacks, though it's typically very hard to get a touch AC that matters at all at high levels. AC can prevent non-HP damage effects that are linked to attacks as well, like energy drain. Additionally, while in combat healing is considered an inefficient use of time high defense types get more out of it than high HP types, since healing isn't percent of HP based.
Being curious and a little bored I took the to hit and average damage from the monster guidelines for creatures CR 5 to 10 and ran them against your sample fighter with either +1 AC via a dex belt or +1 HP/level from the con belt at levels 7 and 8 (incidentally the belts also cost 6000 gp, not 4000, since you have to pay extra to have a belt of two stats, and the fighter already has a strength belt). Using the rough metric of just taking monster average damage per round both fighters lasted the same number of rounds against the monsters at both levels, with the exception of the CR 5 fight, where the AC fighter lasted one more round. The CR 7 at level 7 fight both had the two fighters at positive HP, but the HP fighter was not above a whole HP(0.8 HP). I took it a step further and pretended that the fighter took either toughness or dodge as his 8th level feat and the AC fighter could take 4 more rounds of the CR5 dpr than the HP fighter and one more round of the CR6 while both still lasted an equal amount at all other CRs.
The results may be an artifact of this particular set up, I don't know.
On topic: I'm fairly certain a barbarian can out mounted murder a cavalier once they can pounce. They're not too bad at it before 10 either, though I think the cavalier is ahead around levels 4-9. So that's something not come a get me related a barbarian could do if the campaign allows for it.
Few things. I was specific to say armor bonus, not AC bonus. Armor bonuses do not add against touch AC, but Deflection (Ring of Protection) does.
The belt thing is off. You can have gloves of strength. There is no longer language in the SRD about off-slotted items costing 1.5 the cost, so there's no point in buying one item with two stats when two items will do just fine for less. I mean you'd have to craft it custom, or have your wizard do it, but still.
Toughness is not a combat feat and can't be taken as a fighter bonus feat.
Your math does show that AC is useful against multiple lower CR combatants. My examples are not fool-proof, I may have simply chosen a level too low for the breaking point. I did say between 7 and 9 is where it starts getting iffy, and in this particular scenario you concocted it is still marginally useful in some circumstances. Again though, between these two hypothetical warriors who can last the same against purely physical threats who attack AC, one is better against spells (+1 fort save, extra HP) and other attacks.
I'd still rather have class-based DR than store-bought AC however.
Your example.may not work
a Pouncing Barb does awesome damage and MAY outdo a Can's spirited charge (I haven't run the math)
the cav also has the option of going mounted skirmisher, rather than spirited charge (probably a better option if the CAV is a Sword/Shield TWF using challenge)
I wonder if said CAV is better with Spirited Charge (getting all the class bonuses that synergise with it)
OR
Getting a mounted TWF pounce (8 attacks, with boots of speed) with challenge.
This week I'm trying a new method. I'm putting him up against a two-weapon warrior with Deadly Defense. I'm not sure how I'm going to adjudicate this.
Every time the barbarian hits, the two-weapon fighter gets an AoO that is an attack with both weapons. So every attack with both weapons sets off another two Come and Get Me AoOs. Which sets off another two AoOs from two-weapon fighter guy and 4 attacks. It should be interesting.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.an attack, not an attack for each of his weapons
You might want to read the Equal Opportunity ability of the 2WW archetype, just FYI.
And I'd put decent odds on a two-weapon type having more Dex than even a CaGM barbarian, which means the barb is likely to run out of available AoOs faster than the fighter will.
Apparently the official ruling is that the AoO is only per creature that hits rather than per hit. Basically, a lvl 19 ability is inferior to a lvl 12 ability.
I found another means to deal with the barbarian in Pushing Assault.
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from what i can find, barbarians end up with a higher "to hit" than a fighter by 2-6 points (depending on level) if evenly statted and equiped. the extra weapon training item is balanced by the furious weapon ability. weapon training makes up for rage str.
a fighter has about -2-8 boints damage difference(based on level)
so a raging barbarian is more accurate, but a well honed fighter hits harder...
that seems backwards
Sword and board fighter. +5 Full Plate (14) +5 tower shield and Shield Focus (10) 18 Dex and Dodge (5) +5 Amulet of Natural Armor (5) +5 Ring of Protection (5)+10 base=49. Boots of Speed for haste means 50. But that's a clunker of a fighter who does *tickle* damage. Make him a Stalwart Defender and give him expertise you can easily crank it to 60. That's pretty nearly the hard cap though.As a tangently aside, how does that happen?
A level 20 fighter can easily get his walk around AC to 50, and with only slight effort approach 60. .
Not quite.
Sword and Board Fighter with Heavy Uber Shield +5 Bashing/+5 Defending spikes (+13 AC); Mithral Full Plate +5 with 24 Dex (+20); +5 Nat Amulet, +5 Prot Ring (+10).
Walk around AC is 53...with no TH penalty. Your barbarian with his +40 to hit while doing his Power Attack thing will miss 2/3 of the time with his primary attacks nad AoO's, and pretty much with all his iteratives.
With a +5 sword, 30 Str, +4 Weapon Training, Spec tree +2/+4, and 20 BAB, the fighter is starting at a +41, and your raging, reckless, CAGM barbarian is giving him a further +11 to hit and +4 damage.
So, he's starting the fight at +52 to hit, and +27 to damage.
With expertse and defensive fighting, he can give himself +8 to AC for -9 to hit. This leaves him at +43 to hit, he triggers his boots for +1 th, +1 AC.
Final Stats: +44 to hit, d10 or 2-12 +27/22 dmg, AC 62. Without excessive investment in AC, your barbarian hits him on a nat 20. If the Barb abandons Power Attack, he hits him on a 17 with an AoO...20% chance. The fighter will miss on a 1 with his Primary, Secondary, Shield bash, and has a 25 and 50% chance of hitting on extra iteratives.
If the Fighter uses Power Attack on top of all this, he's at +39 to hit with his primaries, but is now dealing +37/+32 dmg, and with a crit or two will be doing 200+ a round...and the barb STILL can't hit him.
The barbarian is not going to outrun him, because there's no meaningful way to avoid someone on a battlefield when the fighter takes no move penalty for being in armor, and likely has flight, definitely has haste. If the barb goes for anyone else, the fighter can reach him.
If they duel, the fighter is going to REAM him. If they trade full attacks, the fighter is going to reliably be doing in excess of 100 dmg/rd, and the barb will be lucky to hit ONCE. Start figuring in critical feats, and the barb has a problem.
Yeah, some people consider being able to kill any opponent in one round with a full attack the nadir of level 20, but being unable to BE killed in one attack by a level 20 is another definition of uberness.
==Aelryinth
I would like to point out that in a trade of AoO's, a barb is going to get an AoO for every attack by the TWF.
And the barb is using a THW with a huge Str bonus.
(Let's you think about that).
So, when TWF pokes him with two short swords during one AOO, the barb gets TWO swings back with his greatsword.
This generates 4 shortsword attacks.
Which generates 4 Greatsword attacks.
Which generates 8 shortsword attacks, except at a minimum of 300 dmg at excellent chances to hit, TWF guy is already dead. You don't trade AoO's with a 2H build unless you can make him miss all the time.
It's not unreasonable for a barb who has this feat to have Combat Reflexes (it's pretty much a given), nor to get an inherent bonus to Dex. If he can swing a +5 Dex booster and start at 13 Dex, that's a 24, and 8 Ao0s.
I don't think the TWF guy has a prayer. The only way to really beat a Robilar's 2h build is make him miss.
Jack B Quick did this over on the WoTC Char Ops board (AoO TWF build). I took away all the TWF feats and stuff, did a vanilla Greatsworder based on the same idea, and devastated the build. His little swords didn't answer well to my big one...all he basically did is let me get my AoO's off faster then his.
==Aelryinth
I think the biggest, and most commonly overlooked ability of the barbarian is the ability to get will saves equal to or higher than casters. Only paladins have that ability, and they have to pump points into charisma to do where the barbarian need not do so.
The other thing about barbarians is staying power. No other melee class has the capacity for ignoring conditions and shrugging off effects (I do not include monks as a melee class, but that's another tale)....again, except for paladins. But paladins have that whole code of ethics problem, which is the real reason Paizo hasn't brought back a paladin for every alignment - because you do that and here isn't any point in being any melee class except paladin.
I think you're talking HUMAN barbarians that can pump superstition with Favored Class benefits, right? Because that's certainly not true of ALL barbarians.
===Aelryinth
which is why you fight him with a shield fighter and not a TWF.
You could also really annoy him by hitting him with a Covering Strike from Tome of 9 Swords, but that's not Paizo :)
==Aelryinth
"AC is relevant until about level 7-9 depending"?
Lies. Not everything you meet will have +35 (or whatever) to hit. Even at level 15 AC matters.
"Barbarians end up with a higher "to hit" than a fighter?"
No, a barb can never match a fighter. If you want to do damage, don't play a barb. Play a fighter or Paladin. Even ranger might outdamage a barb. Clerics, Druids and summoners will probably outdamage barbarians to. Barbarians cane be fun, but they are not the best damage dealers.
superstition a good rage power? I say it's one of the worst in the game.
A lame bonus that doesn't stack with other moral save bonuses such as heroism, heroes feast, bard performances, The barb rage bonus to will saves, etc. The downside - having to save vs. friendly spells - is huge.
Pouncing Barbs are overrated. Nice if you fight foes with no DR and low to average AC.
As for totem warriors. I don't get them. What does the archetyp do?
which is why you fight him with a shield fighter and not a TWF.
You could also really annoy him by hitting him with a Covering Strike from Tome of 9 Swords, but that's not Paizo :)
==Aelryinth
I never understood that maneuver BTW. Whi if I hit you you cannot make AOO anymore? You should not make AOO every turn I hit :D
ToB was awesome but was an enemy of logic.
@Zark: in my hum le opinion, your conception of barbarian is stuck with pre-APG.
In my games, fiend totems would be pretty much restricted to NPC barbarians, due to the evil, or would be a social anchor on the PC, due to same. I'm not sure that would be worth the trade-off.
And, having played with a Superstitious Barbarian, that rage power definitely has its minuses: the better your saves, the less likely you're going to get hasted or any other 1 rd/level buff. After a certain point, the casters stopped bothering to waste actions that had a 35% chance of not working at all.
Did you rage before being buffed?
which is why you fight him with a shield fighter and not a TWF.
You could also really annoy him by hitting him with a Covering Strike from Tome of 9 Swords, but that's not Paizo :)
==Aelryinth
I never understood that maneuver BTW. Whi if I hit you you cannot make AOO anymore? You should not make AOO every turn I hit :D
ToB was awesome but was an enemy of logic.
@Zark: in my hum le opinion, your conception of barbarian is stuck with pre-APG.
You smack your enemy, and jangle his nerves and reactions with your own internal power. He can see an opening but can't respond to it fast enough to take advantage of it...he's stuck with attack patterns hard-wired into his system (normal and full attacks).
Really shuts down a Robilar's build hard;) It's also the 'anti-manuver' for the anti-movement stance from Devoted Spirit...doesn't matter if you can take AoO's on anyone who moves if you can't take AoO's at ALL.
==Aelryinth
superstition a good rage power? I say it's one of the worst in the game.
A lame bonus that doesn't stack with other moral save bonuses such as heroism, heroes feast, bard performances, The barb rage bonus to will saves, etc. The downside - having to save vs. friendly spells - is huge.
How is a +9 to will saves (what superstition gives in addition to the moral bonus from rage) and a +13 to fort and reflex not absolutely overpowering? (Note: this is if your human and take the favored class option for superstition.) You are now a barbarian with paladin like saves. None of these other spells and such give you that kind of a bump. You also would not be getting bumps from those spells anyway because of the inherent bonus built into rage.
In addition, a barbarian can just delay action till after the cleric, grab a buff, then rage into battle. Or with a little recon, buff before you even open the door. Problem solved. Getting half healing can suck a little bit, but you have the hit points to weather through the encounter and get the healing after you end your rage.
Whoa there. Superstition does NOT stack with Rage. Furthermore, having to save against beneficial spells means you aren't getting buffed, and you're hard to heal. Not sure where the reflex bonus is coming from, although the FOrt save comes from Raging. Buffs don't come so easy, and delaying until after the cleric means giving up your initiative bonus.
So, not so smooth. Also, remember that the others are getting morale bonuses on top of what they already have, so they can build up...you're more 'self-contained' is all.
===Aelryinth
Whoa there. Superstition does NOT stack with Rage. Furthermore, having to save against beneficial spells means you aren't getting buffed, and you're hard to heal. Not sure where the reflex bonus is coming from, although the FOrt save comes from Raging. Buffs don't come so easy, and delaying until after the cleric means giving up your initiative bonus.So, not so smooth. Also, remember that the others are getting morale bonuses on top of what they already have, so they can build up...you're more 'self-contained' is all.
===Aelryinth
I didn't say it stacks. What I said was that because rage gives you a moral bonus to will saves, that the bonus from superstition to will is technically smaller than to your other saves. A human barbarian with favored class superstition gets a +13 moral bonus to ALL (Fort, Reflex, and Will) saves against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Because rage gives you a +4 moral bonus to will, superstition only nets you a +9 above that. That's what I was getting at. In addition, the increase in Fort save stacks with rage because the rage increase is due to an increase in Con, not some named bonus.
Secondly, yes you are tough to heal. You will more than likely own any will save to heal. This isn't a loosing situation though. You only get half healing instead of full. Healing can still help you out in a jam. For this you remove the biggest danger to a barbarian, the wizard, out of play.
Lastly, yes others are getting that moral bonus to saves. This increase is not a +13 to all saves. Not even close, no way in hell or any other plane you may be visiting. Nothing adds such a huge increase to saves as superstition.
Channel Energy is Su and doesn't allow a save for half. So only single target touch healing you have to worry about.
Also, there's not a lot of morale bonuses floating around for you to not stack with. Bless? Meh. Heroism, sure, but that's only +2 anyway. Bard's inspire courage is Competence now, not Morale.
For the record, delaying at higher levels is probably the best tactic for a melee since the battlefield will change after turn 1 with SoS spells anyway. If you want you can always take moment of clarity if you NEEEED a specific buff/heal but you probably won't.
To everyone who believes a barbarian should have to use 2 rounds of rage every turn, would you make a barbarian use a free action to turn off rage on his turn if he only had 1 round of rage remaining?
I don't like it, but the rules define a round as ending at the beginning of your turn, before you act. I dont know that many people play rage that way, that unless you end it at the end of your turn, you get charged for a whole extra round, but that's the rule. With rage cycling you could make the case that they don't give a minimum unit of rage, so you can use half rounds of rage, but that's a little weak.
@Zark: in my hum le opinion, your conception of barbarian is stuck with pre-APG.
No. I got the APG.
Did you rage before being buffed?
You don't always chose the time a fight start.
Channel Energy is Su and doesn't allow a save for half. So only single target touch healing you have to worry about.Also, there's not a lot of morale bonuses floating around for you to not stack with. Bless? Meh. Heroism, sure, but that's only +2 anyway. BBless? Meh. Heroism, sure, but that's only +2 anyway. Bard's inspire courage is Competence now, not Moral is Competence now, not Moral
I was talking save bonus. Bard's inspire courage is Moral.
Heroes feast is moral too.As for healing in battle. Channel in battle is nice at lower levels. At mid levels it's only good after battle. Healing in battel sucks unless you use heal or mass heal. Do you really want to save vs. heal? Sure you can use clear mind and cry for healing, but then the enemy casters can target you as well.
IF you always get your buffs before battle and you don't need buffs or other spells during a fight. Good for you. Then Superstition is great.
As for saves greater than the Paladin, no. The Paladin got better will saves and immuneties and protective spells. Reflex save are selldom a problem. Fort. saves will only be a problem if you roll 1.
Anyone can create a Paladin with XX char that would give the Paladin a XX bonus to saves at level 20 and then add Heroism or Greater Heroism to the Paladin. (With use magic devise a high char he can use any scrolls or wands he wants.) And the Paladin don't need to save against beneficial spells. His bonus would be always on unless in a antimagic field. He would have a better AC and could heal himself the same round as he use a full attack.
Problem with threads like this is they don't reflect real game play. Sure. Anyone can sit at home and create a ûber level 20 char, but if you hade top play it from level 1 and make sure it survived, it would be something totaly different.
Pouncing Barbs are overrated. Nice if you fight foes with no DR and low to average AC.
I don't quite understand this statement. What does DR (I have a two handed weapon with power attack goodness - no worries here) and low AC (charge will give me a +2 to hit) have to do with gaining a full attack on a charge.
Pounce is all kinds of win. The main reason that ranged characters do more damage than melee is that they get more full attacks. The more full attacks you have the better. In any fluid combat you are lucky to get a couple full attacks in because you are moving around. Pounce gives you the best of both worlds: Mobility and Full attacks.
The barb can use Pounce with his claw attacks.
Claw attacks are natural weapons and don't give additional attacks due to high BAB. And you have to use charge with pounce.Pounce don't let you charge with your sword. You use your claws.
You can't cast align weapon or bless weapon on claws and you need spells or an amulett to boost the attack and damage to your claws. Spells won't help you with DR.
By if your DM let you use Pounce with a greatsword or other weapons, Good for you.
crap
Zark. Pounce is a full attack on a charge, does not stipulate what weapons you need to use. You can use a Falchion as much as you want.
Also, as I said, and you quoted but ignored, INSPIRE COURAGE IS A COMPETENCE BONUS not a Morale bonus.<---------
COMPETENCE BONUS not a Morale bonus. Other than the saves vs. fear.
And heroes feast is only a +4 against poisons and fear.
Also, yes, I buff either a)before combat or b)the first round of combat.
I mean if your wizard casts haste on round 5...he's wasting his slot.
If buffs get handed out at all it's round 1. Just delay.
I have played a totem/superstition/invulnerable/cagm rager barbarian, this isn't theorycraft stuff. I do holy crap damage and have amazing saves and can seriously take a hit (DR 9/- while raging).
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Actually if your DM doesn't let you pounce with other weapons, that's too bad for you. Pounce lets you make a full attack when you charge, that's all there is to the text. Greater beast totem does not restrict it further.The barb can use Pounce with his claw attacks.
Claw attacks are natural weapons and don't give additional attacks due to high BAB. And you have to use charge with pounce.Pounce don't let you charge with your sword. You use your claws.
You can't cast align weapon or bless weapon on claws and you need spells or an amulett to boost the attack and damage to your claws. Spells won't help you with DR.By if your DM let you use Pounce with a greatsword or other weapons, Good for you.
yup. pounce has no restriction. its just "full attack(+ rake if applicable)"
no "natural attacks only" clause
you may wanna sue your DM :P
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crapZark. Pounce is a full attack on a charge, does not stipulate what weapons you need to use. You can use a Falchion as much as you want.
Also, as I said, and you quoted but ignored, INSPIRE COURAGE IS A COMPETENCE BONUS not a Morale bonus.<---------
COMPETENCE BONUS not a Morale bonus. Other than the saves vs. fear.
Crap, Nice tone we're using.
No,it did not ignore you, but I was talking about save bonuses."An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects"
Yes I know "Pounce is a full attack on a charge, does not stipulate what weapons you need to use". So far I have never seen a monster / animal / creature in any adventure using pounce with anything other than a natural attack. By RAW you are right by I'm not sure you a right by RAI. A good FAQ question. I will hit the FAQ button. Hope you do to, so I can say you are right when Paizo says I'm wrong ;-)
And heroes feast is only a +4 against poisons and fear.
I know, but at level 11 that's quite nice.
mean if your wizard casts haste on round 5...he's wasting his slot.
If buffs get handed out at all it's round 1. Just delay
True, haste on round 5 is a waste. Heal on round 3 isn't. Especially if you are paralyzed or stunned.
I have played a totem/superstition/invulnerable/cagm rager barbarian, this isn't theorycraft stuff.
Good. So you can explain the Totem Archetype. What does it get that other barbarians other doesn’t get and what does it have do trade for it?
Yes, Paizo COULD not have labelled it an `Archetype`, and just put a Pre-Req `you may select this Rage Power if you have any Rage Powers with a Totem Descriptor different than this one` and it would have the exact same effect (though that would result in alot of redundant boiler-plate in every Totem Rage Power). Or ideally, just establish a `Rage Totem` sub-system, that puts that Totem-exclusivity wording in a sub-text subsumed to the Rage Power section, rather than confusing (some) people with the `Archetype` wording. It`s kind of like the Racial Traits vs. Racial (category) Traits (half-Feats) thing... Rule 1 of designing a rule-based game: don`t call different things by the same name, even if it works in an English-meaning-of-the-word sense.
You are giving up: other Totem Archtypes (i.e. entire Rage Power chains), and other Rage Powers you could have selected. I think it is a good mechanic to selectively have some `exclusivity`/specialization while letting you choose how deep to go into that specialization... though Beast Totem is really the only one I would use for a PC at the moment (the others DO seem useful for NPCs...). Jason Nelson mentioned elsewhere that a Celestial Totem MAY make it into UC, and I definitely expect other Totems to be published there. Personally, I think some of the existing Totems could use some `branching out`, PERHAPS extending them to 4+ deep chains, but mostly allowing alternative progressions... I could also see stuff like magic items that work specifically if you have a Totem, or have an alternate effect if you do.
Superstitious Rage Power IS a benefit/draw-back type of thing, and if you can`t stand drawbacks, it`s not for you... Kind of like Reach Weapons (though Feats and Classes always seem to appear to negate the drawbacks of those). I can DEFINITELY understand anybody not wanting to take it, and I myself wouldn`t always take it... Though I can also accept a character`s whose strengths are off-set by some things that may make life more difficult... like Oracle Curses. An interesting option is that you can actually take the Superstitious Archetypes WITHOUT taking that Rage Power... I personally find that a good trade-off for what you give up. As Zark perhaps less-than-diplomatically tried to communicate, IF you have a buffing Bard in your party (some Bard archetypes may not offer all the standard buffs), the save bonus from Superstitious provides less benefit than without a Bard (and the down-side stays the same) so your evaluation may be different dependent on party composition.
Yes I know "Pounce is a full attack on a charge, does not stipulate what weapons you need to use". So far I have never seen a monster / animal / creature in any adventure using pounce with anything other than a natural attack. By RAW you are right by I'm not sure you a right by RAI. A good FAQ question. I will hit the FAQ button. Hope you do to, so I can say you are right when Paizo says I'm wrong ;-)
I'm aghast at your disregard for the RAW.
There were plenty of things in 3.5 that had pounce, such as the supercharger fighter, Psionic Lion's Charge, etc.Also, a small morale bonus to fear and charm are pretty insignificant and not worth not raging for. If Iron Will gave a morale bonus to Will saves it'd still be worth taking.
Also, a small morale bonus to fear and charm are pretty insignificant and not worth not raging for.
You`re mis-reading his point. You don`t GAIN anything by not raging (in this sense, you do gain +2 AC), he`s just saying that the morale bonuses over-lap, so WHEN other morale bonuses are in effect the `upside` of Superstitious isn`t as big (though it may still be a net bonus `on top` of other bonuses), yet the negatives are the same. So IF you have consistent morale-bonus `buffs`, there is less net benefit vs. the negatives.... Though having uber-saves vs. merely nice saves can certainly save you in some cases (and Superstitious applies to everything magical, not just mind-affecting, etc), so some people will still like it enough to deal with it`s down-sides (which can be done via delaying when a Caster ally announces they will cast a buff you want, or `integrated` into Rage cycling you would have done anyways). As well, you are more `self contained` as he mentioned, so when the Bard or Buff Caster is Mazed or whatnot, you still have your own `self buffs`.
I'm aghast at your disregard for the RAW.
still act like a jerk.
By raw druid could wildshape and keep their shield bonus until jason expalined that by RAI they couldn't. I was the one to asked him to set things right and he did. My "disregard for the RAW" proved me right that time.Put your money where your mouth is and hit the FAQ button, or are you chicken?
There were plenty of things in 3.5 that had pounce, such as the supercharger fighter, Psionic Lion's Charge, etc.
I'm talking and playing pathfinder, not 3.5.
Also, a small morale bonus to fear and charm are pretty insignificant and not worth not raging for. If Iron Will gave a morale bonus to Will saves it'd still be worth taking.
LOL! Contradiciting yourself and you can't even se it. LOL
As for delay, that's when the enemy casters hit you, or when they go first and you are not raging.
again: Put your money where your mouth is and hit the FAQ button.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying barbs are bad. I like them. They got as lot of cool things going for them. I'm just saying they are not as good as some people think.
Thanks for your answer. True I need to work on my diplomacy. I better put some ranks in diplomacy.
As for the totem warrior it confuses me. I do understand you can only take powers from one totem.
”You are giving up: other Totem Archtypes (i.e. entire Rage Power chains), and other Rage Powers”
By ”other rage powers” do you mean other Totem rage powers or do you mean they can only pick the following rage powers: animal fury*, low-light vision*, night vision*, raging climber*, raging leaper*, raging swimmer*, and swift foot*?
I love how you put it: 2don`t call different things by the same name, even if it works in an English-meaning-of-the-word sense .”
To me, as a non native english speaking person, it's very confusing. The word ”trait” has caused some of my friends much confusion.
Thanks again for your help. And thanks Momar, too :-)