
Daltaren the Magnificent! |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |

Here's a thought....
What does the community think of this?
The Spell Perfection feat reads...
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Do you think that this would apply to the benfits of Intensified Spell?
An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Increasing the number of damage dice by 5 levels is by definition a "set numerical bonus" is it not? If the arguement is that Intensified spell doesn't include the words "provides +x bonus" well, then neither does Greater Spell Foucs and Spell Focus was specifically mentioned.
Just saying that if this qualifies, then double wow @ 15th level!

DreamAtelier |
Hmm... I'd never thought about that particular reading of the feat.
My gut is that most people would argue that intensify isn't actually a "set numerical bonus" because the actual number of damage dice that are added can be variable: If you only have enough CL to add 3, you only add three. And on some spells it adds up to 5 dice, on some spells only two, etc.
There's also the can of worms question: if intensify qualifies for causing that to go off, does empower? "Add 50%" is just as technically a set numerical bonus as raising the damage cap. What about Extend? Doubling is a fixed numerical bonus. And if we're doubling the modifier, we'd end up at a quadruple duration. Ditto that for widen.
On the one hand, I like your reading of spell perfection: It makes it a truly kick-ass feat for anyone who takes it, and could really put a bit more punch back into blaster builds of all sorts, which have been always been a bit lack luster. On the other, I'm leery of the potential implications, particularly since they will touch on classes which are a lot more world-shatteringly powerful than the magus in end game.
Of course, I suppose a counterpoint to my concern is that there is almost no possibility of a character ever taking the feat more than three times (at 15th, 18th, and 20th level if they were a wizard), so it would never apply to that many spells for any given character.

Banatine |
There's also the can of worms question: if intensify qualifies for causing that to go off, does empower? "Add 50%" is just as technically a set numerical bonus as raising the damage cap. What about Extend? Doubling is a fixed numerical bonus. And if we're doubling the modifier, we'd end up at a quadruple duration. Ditto that for widen.
I don't see any worms here. you can't apply it to empower because +50% is not a set numerical bonus. it is not a set numerical bonus because it's affect can apply differantly to differant spells, all differant spells have differant base numerical values.
Same for widen, all spells have differant AOEs, and thus the bonus from the feat is not a set numerical bonus. if widen said 'increase the spell's radius by 10 feet', then it would become a set numerical bonus, and be valid for spell perfection.
However +5 to maximum damage cap IS a set numerical bonus, as it always applies a specified 'set number' to the same 'location' of any applicable spell (as the mentioned examples do). it doesn't matter if you use it on shocking grasp or Disintigrate, it always applies the same effect.
At least, this is how I interprit it.

![]() |

AS far as I can tell, you can only pick it up on one spell, though.
Spell Perfection doesn't have a "Special" section stating you can take it more than once.

DreamAtelier |
Fair point Edgar.
Banatine, I know that if I had a DM who said it applied to Intensify spell, I'd argue that x2 (double) or x 1.5 are equally set numerical bonuses. It doesn't matter whether the spell started off at 1d3 or 20d6: I'm doing the same thing to both of them to follow the rules of the feat, just as I'd be adding +1 from Weapon Focus (Ray) to hit with each of them. The variable portion of it is what I'm multiplying, not the multiplier.

Banatine |
Fair point Edgar.
Banatine, I know that if I had a DM who said it applied to Intensify spell, I'd argue that x2 (double) or x 1.5 are equally set numerical bonuses. It doesn't matter whether the spell started off at 1d3 or 20d6: I'm doing the same thing to both of them to follow the rules of the feat, just as I'd be adding +1 from Weapon Focus (Ray) to hit with each of them. The variable portion of it is what I'm multiplying, not the multiplier.
I understand what you mean.
Now that i've checked, double-checked, and done it all over again, i guess the 'Set numerical bonus' means only like the bonuses it mentioned.
I can see why it applies to spell penetration and such and NOT intensify and the like, but i'm not sure how to articulate it beyond 'it obviously isn't intended to apply to metamagic'. anyone else any better as explaining than me?

![]() |

Hmm...
Even worse, if you take it with a touch spell (and you should, as a magus), do the bonuses (Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Crit (Scimitar)) further affect the spellstrike, AKA your high crit-range weapon? That's a real can of worms. Weapon focus isn't that bad, but Improved crit, if in any way improved, is likely to be broken.
However, Improved Crit doesn't seem like a set numerical bonus to me. It doesn't add on or two to your crit threat range, it doubles your existing crit threat range. If Empower/Maximize are affected (which I don't believe to be the case), then Imp Crit would be affected, although not necessarily on the weapon when spellstriking, and definitely not while not spellstriking, as there isn't a spell to affect.

Arcaleth |

Hmm...
Even worse, if you take it with a touch spell (and you should, as a magus), do the bonuses (Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Crit (Scimitar)) further affect the spellstrike, AKA your high crit-range weapon? That's a real can of worms. Weapon focus isn't that bad, but Improved crit, if in any way improved, is likely to be broken.
However, Improved Crit doesn't seem like a set numerical bonus to me. It doesn't add on or two to your crit threat range, it doubles your existing crit threat range. If Empower/Maximize are affected (which I don't believe to be the case), then Imp Crit would be affected, although not necessarily on the weapon when spellstriking, and definitely not while not spellstriking, as there isn't a spell to affect.
I don't think those matter. The feat description seems to imply specific spell effects not weapon feats. "if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell".

james maissen |
From the examples given, it seems that it has to give a bonus that is expressed by a number. This is still an awesome feat, and makes even blasting an option with elemental focus.
If you plan on playing a magus as a shocking grasp (or other similar spell) machine gun then it really is a must have feat.
Getting a quickened shocking grasp to give you another attack is a huge ramp up for them, so I would not advice against not being able to do so if this is where you were going with your magus.
-James

Keneth |
You guys are forgetting that if you have two multipliers to the same effect, they're not applied arithmetically. If you double something twice, it is instead tripled, not quadrupled.
Also, maximize and empower don't stack like that. It wouldn't be 180 damage, it would be 120+10d6 damage (assuming a crit of course).
Actually, they do. Empower spell multiplies the result by 1.5 as far as I know. If you empower an intensified shocking grasp, it deals (10d6)*1.5 damage, not 15d6, although the end result may be the same. But even if that weren't true, the player may opt to apply the effects of his abilities in whatever is the most beneficial order for him (this is one of the basic rules), so you can always apply maximize at the end and reach the same result.
The 15 foot reach isn't actually 15 feet. It's 10. However, if the enemy moves towards me, close enough to attack, they will usually have to move 10 feet, thus negating any chance of getting attacked multiple times by THEIR full attack. Plus, I get a free AoO when they do come at me.
This is entirely false. With a 10-foot reach, the enemy is standing 10-feet away from you and can close in with a single 5-foot step, avoiding your AoO and making a full attack. You only receive this perk once, when the enemy is farther than 10 feet away and at that point he may just choose to ignore you because closing in on creatures with reach is a bad idea. Even once you can attack from 15 feet away, this trick only works once, because once the enemy closes in, you won't be moving away more than 5 feet, thus effectively reducing your reach to 10.
My spell combat is still a viable option, I just don't get the spellstrike feature. which, really, for the extra 1d6 of rapier damage....I don't feel like I'm missing out on much.
You're not spellstriking with a rapier, katana, or scimitar for the 1d6+X extra damage, although it certainly helps on a dexterity-based build to even out the slightly lower damage yield. The whole point of spellstriking through those weapons is the low critical threat range. At the end, having a 10% more chance to crit (assuming the keen property), far outweighs the minor damage boost of the falcata

galahad2112 |
@ Keneth
Right on the 15 ft vs 10 ft reach. I was saying that with the 10 ft reach, I can still be 15 ft away and have the chance to 5 ft step for a full attack, or, if they come to me, get an AoO. Perhaps they won't come to me. I'm ok with that. Mohommed and the mountain, and all that. However, if they do come to me, not only to I get an AoO, but, on my turn, I can back up 5 ft, cast grease via spell combat (I know it's not a shocking grasp, but it is fun), and still get my full attack. Next round, if he moves at all, I get a AoO again, and if he moves towards me, NOW I can do the 5 ft back, full attack (with shocking grasp this time), rinse and repeat.
In the example quoted for spell combat vs spellstrike, we were discussing the lv 2 magus vs the level 1 magus/lv1 barbarian. And I totally agree that the katana is the better choice for exotic weapon. The damage output considered was the full magus spellstriking with his rapier and a shocking grasp (1d6+1d6+2d6) vs my barbarian striking for 2d6+5 and whatever 1st level spell I feel like. Or no spell at all, which means 2 hand str. and I'll probably power attack as well, giving 2d6+10. The "extra d6" in question was for the rapier delivering the shocking grasp, since 2d6 + 5 is roughly equivalent to 3d6. Not to mention, at this point (lv 2) I'd consider the falcata to be at least as good as the katana, since the extra 5% crit chance would be offset by the massive damage of the falcata crits that do happen. That being said, If I did take EWP, I'd still get the katana, because I don't rely on crits, but I do want as many as possible. Really the falcata is just a style thing.

galahad2112 |
So, when you say "marginally more damage", what does that really mean? at level 1, I'm doing AT LEAST +4 damage, before rage, before power attack, before crit. Since we're talking 2d6 vs 2d6+5, that's approx 60% more damage, hardly "marginal". Let's say that I do rage, and power attack, and, just for yucks, Not using a shield. We're looking at 2d6+13, an addition of more than the max damage of a dervish magus. Even if the straight magus crits twice, his max damage is only 1 point higher than my regular damage. For another damage imbalance, what happens when I DO crit with that falcata? 3x 2d6+13 is SUBSTANTIAL, even at mid-to-later levels. But at this low level, even his non-raging, non-power attacking crit is 6d6+15. His MINIMUM damage is just shy of the straight magus' MAX damage on 2 crits!
As to the straight-up stength magus, you're probably right, that would be more effective. Then level of Barbarian is to give extra HP, earlier access to medium armor (Mithral breastplate, anyone?), Buckler proficiency (again, mithral), the ABILITY (not the requirement, as many seem to think) to rage, access to more class skills (I like perception, not to mention +2 skill points), and an additional 10 ft to base speed. If we're not talking PFS, I'd also take magical knack (not lineage, as my shocking grasps are just fine regular style, what with the extra weapon damage), so that my caster level doesn't lag.
As I've said before, this probably isn't the best and only way to build a magus, but I think that it does quite a nice job.

Keneth |
To get a mithral breastplate and a mithral buckler, you'd need to be at least level 4 (more likely level 5) and that's only if you get the standard WBL and the market is favorable. And what exactly do you gain by using a breastplate at that point? With their high dexterity bonus, a dervish magus likely has just as much AC as you at that point, plus a shiny +1 keen weapon (assuming level 5), so he gets an additional +1d6 elemental damage (or +1 attack and damage with a straight bonus) which increases to twice as much at next level. Not to mention that if you enlarge yourself, you lose 2 points of armor class, whereas a dex magus will likely be reducing himself, putting him even farther ahead of you.
And yes, the damage is marginal. Comparing the damage percentually at such low yields is pointless. The first few levels, every magus, even strength-based ones, should be color spraying and coup-de-grace-ing everything. So whether you do slightly more damage at first level, and it's expected since you're just a barbarian at that point, is irrelevant. If anything saves against the sprays, its hp should be low enough anyway that both the magus and barbarian should be able to kill it with relative ease.
Your argument is kinda moot since a normal barbarian is always gonna outdamage a magus at lower levels (and likely at higher ones if properly optimized). After level 5, your minimal perks of multiclassing will be unnoticable but the loss of one level is gonna weigh on you the whole time.
Like I said, could be fun if you're playing a quick low-level adventure, but not worth considering if you're gonna keep playing after that unless you want to intentionally sabotage your character.

Dekalinder |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Shocking grasp at level 1 is a waste of a spell slot. Shield and Color Spray should be your weapon of choice for the the first 2-3 levels. Shocking starts to be actually good only after you stacked some caster level, like from 4-5 onward.
With Spell Specializzartion you are going to see Maximized Intensifyed SG a first level spell, wich is awesome. With a spell storing weapn, you can go in a single round for a full attack + stored SG (60 dmg) + casted SG (60 dmg + attack) and a quickned Intensifyed SG (10d6, still a 1° level spell). That's 10d6+120+6 attacks if hasted, 4 of witch are at max BAB. Pretty dang hard to beat that as of pure damage when you consider a 30% chance of critting for double damage on each of his attacks and spells.
And if you are worring about resources expended, this are 3 first level spells, like 3k worth of pearl of power. You can have easly like 10 of those at level 15.

galahad2112 |
@ Keneth
By using a mithral breastplate I suffer no ACP, unlike a comparable level magus. Anyway, at later levels, I'll also be using mithral full plate, so a good bit of that AC disparity is gone.
So, how is it that being 1 level behind is so crippling? And how is it that the bonus "increases to twice as much at next level," if we're talking level 5? When I enlarge myself, I get to make AoOs many times more often, not to mention rarely having to make concentration checks to cast defensively.
With a raging power attack, I'm netting at least 13 damage. %difference aside, at low levels, that's huge. When PC's are often in single to low double digits, a 15 damage minimum is beastly.
When you say "after lv 5" do you really mean "AT lv 5", because at lv 6, I'm down an arcana and 1 CL. Oh, and 1 arcane pool point. I really don't see that as being uber-critical.
As far as my argument being moot, since it's in response to your post, does that invalidate your original statement?
Like I've stated in the past, my build is not intended to disparage the dervish build, or even the strength magus build. Walter had asked, way back when, whether any multiclass options were any good, and THAT'S what this build was trying to answer. Of course the Dervish build is good, even great. That's why it has become the predominant build. I'm not disputing that. My argument is that this can compete with that build, surpassing it at low levels, lagging behind a bit later on, but still being effective throughout.
@ Dekalinder
Absolutely, lv 1 shocking grasp is pretty worthless. Shield and Color Spray are great options, although I also favor Grease. Even at later levels, it can be an effective spell, as it makes the area difficult terrain, even when all saves and checks are made. And right you are about the metamagic shocking grasps. They are NASTY. I'd probably take Elemental spell, though, just to give me some flexibility with resistance/immunity.
At the point where I can cast the metamagic shocks, I'm usually not too worried about resource expenditure, anyway, especially for the reasons that you mention. And at level 15, I'd even be willing to apply elemental spell on top of the quickend-intensify, just because with improved spell recall, what's an arcane pool point between friends?

Zark |

Close range allows you to use Acid Splash and Ray of Frost in such a way to make this accessable (and deal a whopping 1d3 damage to boot *sarcasm*).
Not Acid splash. It isn't a ray.
@OP. Very nice guide, but I'm surprised the guide focus so much on one spell, Shocking Grasp and neglect such spells as Corrosive Touch (or even Scorching Ray).
Edit:
There are monsters with electricity resist. Then there are those with electricity immunity. Then most foes buffed with energy resist. Most have usually cast electricity or fire. There are lots of monsters with resist electricity immunity to electricity.
Sure Shocking Grasp is usually better, but plan B seems to be lacking somewhat in your guide.
Intesified Corrosive Touch at level 10 deals averedge 25 point of damage. With a crit that's 50. If the monster has electricity immunity and resist acid 10, that is still 40 points of damage. 40 is better than 0 :-)
Same goes for fighting undeads or constructs. You got to have a plan B fighting stuff immune to mind affecting and ability damage and drain.
Color Spray is worthless when fighting fighting undeads or constructs.
When fighting incorporeals magic missile is actually a good one. Notice that last game session.

![]() |

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:From the examples given, it seems that it has to give a bonus that is expressed by a number. This is still an awesome feat, and makes even blasting an option with elemental focus.If you plan on playing a magus as a shocking grasp (or other similar spell) machine gun then it really is a must have feat.
Getting a quickened shocking grasp to give you another attack is a huge ramp up for them, so I would not advice against not being able to do so if this is where you were going with your magus.
-James
My current Hexcrafter Magus in Serpents Skull will take it, no question here. I am not 100% sure which spell though. I have the trait to improve my shocking grasp with intensify, but since this feat would allow me to quicken 6th level spells, it seems wastefull (vampiric touch looks mighty fine at this point).
So if you are a Magus and will come high enough to take it, there is really no reason not to plan for it (and take a 3rd metamatic feat - intensify and quicken expected).
When I mentioned blasting, I though more about full casters, with elemental focus, greater elemental focus, spell focus evocation .... and all that times 2, you could really scale your DC high enough that even rogues will have problems.
That said right there you have a great argument why highten should not be further enhanced by spell perfection, it would be wayyy to good.

Robot_nachos |

My current Hexcrafter Magus in Serpents Skull will take it, no question here. I am not 100% sure which spell though. I have the trait to improve my shocking grasp with intensify, but since this feat would allow me to quicken 6th level spells, it seems wastefull (vampiric touch looks mighty fine at this point).
So if you are a Magus and will come high enough to take it, there is really no reason not to plan for it (and take a 3rd metamatic feat - intensify and quicken expected).
When I mentioned blasting, I though more about full casters, with elemental focus, greater elemental focus, spell focus evocation .... and all that times 2, you could really scale your DC high enough that even rogues will have problems.
That said right there you have a great argument why highten should not be further enhanced by spell perfection, it would be wayyy to good.
Just a quick note, Perfected spell wouldn't allow you to quicken 6th level spells
pell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Emphasis mine, on another note saying that this spell perfection applying to metamagic feats is too good seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
Let's assume that all of this cheese gets allowed at a table, a spell striking magus with spell perfection (shocking grasp) spell striking with a 15d6 maximized X2 shocking grasp would deal 180 damage on top of his normal attack routine with twice that if he gets a critical hit (also this is electricity damage which is the second most common resistance, second only to fire in my experience ). mean while a twf, rapid shot ninja with guns, sneak attacking will be doing about 60d6 (average 210) damage in addition to his bullet damage, normally I'd argue that hitting with all of your attacks in a round, especially with two weapon fighting but you are shooting for flat footed, touch AC -2 at that point it becomes a don't roll a one contest. keep in mind that that ninja has invested the same number of feats as the magus to do that and has not even gotten items like sniper goggles or rouge talents like powerful sneak to boost his average damage.
ShoulderPatch |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

... I've been in contact. Currently he's in the works on another project and hasn't gotten around to UC's material, but he said once he did that he'd get his guide updated...
I'm a big fan of Walter's guide and several of the discussions on this thread off of it, but I'd noticed it was short a detailed sections about Spellblending options.
I've added a post...
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5bne?Which-Spells-To-Add-Spellblending-Arcana-Y our
...here on the advice section specifically to discuss spell choices to be taken with Spellblending (note: or Greater Spell Access).
I thought I'd mention/link it here in the hopes some of you might stop in and post some logical opinions on "Must Have", "Should Have", or "Looks Good But You Probably Don't Want/use a wand" additional spells to take for a Magus.

james maissen |
Edit:
There are monsters with electricity resist. Then there are those with electricity immunity. Then most foes buffed with energy resist. Most have usually cast electricity or fire. There are lots of monsters with resist electricity immunity to electricity.
Sure Shocking Grasp is usually better, but plan B seems to be lacking somewhat in your guide.
It boils down really to demons (who are immune electricity) and how common they are for you.
Baring electricity immunity there isn't often more than a 10 point disparity between electric and acid resists. In essence corrosive touch is a built in 10 resist in comparison to shocking grasp.
It is a call however, and one to make with an eye for later levels.
To the other poster.. with magical lineage and spell perfection a quickened 6th level spell is 9th level.. which is what I assume was meant.
-James

james maissen |
Since we're talking 2d6 vs 2d6+5, that's approx 60% more damage, hardly "marginal".
At level 1 you're comparing a barbarian to a magus first of all.
Secondly the magus is going to be making his weapon +1, so it would be 2d6+2, so it's 9 vs 12, or 33% more damage.
Third, the strength magus is going to field the similar numbers to your barbarian. The barbarian can rage for +2/+3 while the the magus can make his weapon +1/+1 the later lasting longer than the barbarian rage.
This is of course the weakest point for the dervish magus and where a dip into another class (which is BEING the other class at this point) is going to be seen the most.
By 2nd level this is mainly a wash as the barb dip doesn't get much from it, while the magi get spell strike.
And by 3rd level, the time the dip gets spell strike, the dervish magus is pulling comparable numbers.
As to your using a mithril breastplate/full plate.. at what levels are you doing this and how are you living with the ASF?
-James

![]() |

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:My current Hexcrafter Magus in Serpents Skull will take it, no question here. I am not 100% sure which spell though. I have the trait to improve my shocking grasp with intensify, but since this feat would allow me to quicken 6th level spells, it seems wastefull (vampiric touch looks mighty fine at this point).
So if you are a Magus and will come high enough to take it, there is really no reason not to plan for it (and take a 3rd metamatic feat - intensify and quicken expected).
When I mentioned blasting, I though more about full casters, with elemental focus, greater elemental focus, spell focus evocation .... and all that times 2, you could really scale your DC high enough that even rogues will have problems.
That said right there you have a great argument why highten should not be further enhanced by spell perfection, it would be wayyy to good.
Just a quick note, Perfected spell wouldn't allow you to quicken 6th level spells
psfrd wrote:
pell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Emphasis mine, on another note saying that this spell perfection applying to metamagic feats is too good seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
Let's assume that all of this cheese gets allowed at a table, a spell striking magus with spell perfection (shocking grasp) spell striking with a 15d6 maximized X2 shocking grasp would deal...
My mistake I intended to write 5th level spell - I guess with magical lineage you could quicken one 6th level spell.
You example is a good one, but empower is fine, intensify might be too, but my problem would be with heighten spell.
A level 15 Oracle of Heavens with a Charisma of let's say 32 Spell Focus Illusion, Greater Spell Focus Illusion with Spell Perfection should have a DC of 25. From a first level slot, if you heighten it to 7th level it's a DC 31 Will save.
If you argue that heighten should work double the DC jumps to 37.
A dedicated blaster sorcerer could throw a mean Fireball:
Spell Focus Evocation, Greater Spell Focus Evocation, Elemental Focus, Greater Elemental Focus Fire, Spell Perfection Fireball, Dazing Spell .....
With 32 Charisma and heightened to a 6th level slot it's a DC 33 Reflex saving throw, to avoid getting burned an dazed.
So yeah Spell Perfections is already very good, and since the examples from the feat description only mention feats that give a flat +1 to a DC, or a +1 or +1 bonus on a roll, I am inclined to limit the feat.

galahad2112 |
@ James
The damage differential at 1st level is assumed to be minimum, or at least standard, damage for the barbarian. BTW, you are right, the magus will enhance his weapon, but that only means 2d6+1, as at first level he can't spellstrike. Call it 50%?
As to the mithral breastplate/fullplate, I'd get the breastplate ASAP. I've heard lv 4-5, but I"m not sure exactly when I'd have access to it.
The Mithral Full Plate will come in at lv. 7.
ASF will not be a factor (Armored Hulk archetype for proficiency, no ASF in Med. Armor at lv. 7)

james maissen |
ASF will not be a factor (Armored Hulk archetype for proficiency, no ASF in Med. Armor at lv. 7)
But mithril full plate is heavy armor. It gets treated as medium for encumbrance but I don't think for ASF. I could be wrong, but c'est la vie.
Regardless the barb level is going to be dead and near useless after a handful of levels for the magus. I wouldn't recommend it.
-James

galahad2112 |
From the special materials section:
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Take from that what you will.

dunebugg |

From the special materials section:
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Take from that what you will.
That's where it implies you need to be proficient in Heavy to avoid the ASF.

galahad2112 |
@ Dunebugg
A couple of things -
1)
It mentions ACP, not ASF
Although, as an aside, how does proficiency avoid ACP to skills that require movement? They are all Str or Dex based skills, so they take ACP all the time every time. I don't get it.
2)
Taking Armored Hulk archetype gives me Heavy Proficiency.
As far as ASF is concerned, I think that the line:
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations"
covers it for Magi (and bards wishing to use mithral breastplate)
The only other reference to ASF is the 10% reduction, so I'd imagine that since it's easier to cast in mithral, treating Heavy as Medium would be legit.

![]() |

@ Dunebugg
A couple of things -
1)
It mentions ACP, not ASF
Although, as an aside, how does proficiency avoid ACP to skills that require movement? They are all Str or Dex based skills, so they take ACP all the time every time. I don't get it.2)
Taking Armored Hulk archetype gives me Heavy Proficiency.As far as ASF is concerned, I think that the line:
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations"
covers it for Magi (and bards wishing to use mithral breastplate)The only other reference to ASF is the 10% reduction, so I'd imagine that since it's easier to cast in mithral, treating Heavy as Medium would be legit.
I believe this is correct, once you have the profiency (multiclass or just taking the feats) you can a mithral breastplate from level 1 to 7 and after that if you have that profiency too mithral full plate.
Note that the profiency is only relevant for the ACP to attack rolls, it's the same with Rangers in mithral armors that would restrict their combat style if it wasn't mithral and will penalize their attack rolls with ACP if the don't have profiency
![]() |
I believe this is correct, once you have the profiency (multiclass or just taking the feats) you can a mithral breastplate from level 1 to 7 and after that if you have that profiency too mithral full plate.
Note that the profiency is only relevant for the ACP to attack rolls, it's the same with Rangers in mithral armors that would restrict their combat style if it wasn't mithral and will penalize their attack rolls with ACP if the don't have profiency
If you don't get the armor proficiency from magus class levels, you're going to be dealing with the arcane spell failure chance you'd have if you were a wizard.

Robot_nachos |

[quote =Sebastian Hirsch]stuff relating to Heighten Spell
Ah but you see I wouldn't argue that heighten spell applies to spell perfection at all.
[quote = pfsrd] Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Nowhere in heighten spell does it say "add" or "multiply" or anything of the sort it just allows you to pretend that lower level spells are higher level spells.

Varrel |

Hi. This is Varrel. I'm currently in a Crimson Throne pbp and he's been a good a$$ kicker so far.
I just got Slumber Hex. Now hexcrafter doesn't synch with spell combat but I'm finding it a great opening move vs Single monsters. And it's really keeping my arcane pool full. I've never needed to use more than 1/2 of it for a given day. Usually I move in + spellstrike with shocking grasp, (holding the charge if I miss) and then Spellcombat/spellstrike with Brand.
I'm currently thinking of asking my GM to retrain to a Bladebound archetype (giving up my raven familiar) whom is mostly comedic value right now, but also makes a good second perception check when scouting.
I was going to get Improved Familiar (the psychopomp for at will invis and wand usage with illomen). I've never played bladebound and was wondering about in game pros and cons.
I'm currently a glass cannon, sharing wizard duties with our illusionist/cleric whose going for mystic theurge.
We have a paladin and and urban barb and a Rogue/Crossbowman.

Arcaleth |

Hi. This is Varrel. I'm currently in a Crimson Throne pbp and he's been a good a$$ kicker so far.
I just got Slumber Hex. Now hexcrafter doesn't synch with spell combat but I'm finding it a great opening move vs Single monsters. And it's really keeping my arcane pool full. I've never needed to use more than 1/2 of it for a given day. Usually I move in + spellstrike with shocking grasp, (holding the charge if I miss) and then Spellcombat/spellstrike with Brand.I'm currently thinking of asking my GM to retrain to a Bladebound archetype (giving up my raven familiar) whom is mostly comedic value right now, but also makes a good second perception check when scouting.
I was going to get Improved Familiar (the psychopomp for at will invis and wand usage with illomen). I've never played bladebound and was wondering about in game pros and cons.
I'm currently a glass cannon, sharing wizard duties with our illusionist/cleric whose going for mystic theurge.
We have a paladin and and urban barb and a Rogue/Crossbowman.
Depends on what your wanting to do. From a power level perspective the improved familiar casting with wands will probably be stronger than the bladebound. The hit to your arcane pool won't hurt you much from what you've mentioned, but will lossing your back up scout hurt you? Will not being able to take the extra arcana feat till level 7 mess with your build? Your bladebound weapon could provide the same comedic value. Might be able to get your GM to turn your familiar into the weapon. Bladebound tends to lean more towards flavor than power. It has some utility powers that are nice, but is less powerful than what you were already planning. That being said... I currently play a bladebound hexcrafter, and it is the most fun I've had with a character in a long time.

![]() |

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:If you don't get the armor proficiency from magus class levels, you're going to be dealing with the arcane spell failure chance you'd have if you were a wizard.
I believe this is correct, once you have the profiency (multiclass or just taking the feats) you can a mithral breastplate from level 1 to 7 and after that if you have that profiency too mithral full plate.
Note that the profiency is only relevant for the ACP to attack rolls, it's the same with Rangers in mithral armors that would restrict their combat style if it wasn't mithral and will penalize their attack rolls with ACP if the don't have profiency
I have to disagree here, while it's correct that just getting the profiency for medium and heavy armor doesn't let you cast in them without ASF - until you reach Magus 7 and 13 - a mithral breastplate is a light armor - you just don't have profiency in that kind of armor since the profiency breastplate comes only with the medium armor profiency feat.
Do you have other sources regarding this issue other than the mithral description and the Magus class description?

![]() |

Hi. This is Varrel. I'm currently in a Crimson Throne pbp and he's been a good a$$ kicker so far.
I just got Slumber Hex. Now hexcrafter doesn't synch with spell combat but I'm finding it a great opening move vs Single monsters. And it's really keeping my arcane pool full. I've never needed to use more than 1/2 of it for a given day. Usually I move in + spellstrike with shocking grasp, (holding the charge if I miss) and then Spellcombat/spellstrike with Brand.I'm currently thinking of asking my GM to retrain to a Bladebound archetype (giving up my raven familiar) whom is mostly comedic value right now, but also makes a good second perception check when scouting.
I was going to get Improved Familiar (the psychopomp for at will invis and wand usage with illomen). I've never played bladebound and was wondering about in game pros and cons.
I'm currently a glass cannon, sharing wizard duties with our illusionist/cleric whose going for mystic theurge.
We have a paladin and and urban barb and a Rogue/Crossbowman.
If your GM lets you upgrade your black blade with something like speech and the ability to grow linbs it could quite likely use wands too ... and look terrible.
The fun thing about is that you have a weapon that can see things while you sleep or have your eyes closed, and tell your with telepathy.I would argue that it's a flavour option and that familiar (considering the access to polymorph spells later) is the stronger option - but way less shiny.

![]() |
LazarX wrote:Sebastian Hirsch wrote:If you don't get the armor proficiency from magus class levels, you're going to be dealing with the arcane spell failure chance you'd have if you were a wizard.
I believe this is correct, once you have the profiency (multiclass or just taking the feats) you can a mithral breastplate from level 1 to 7 and after that if you have that profiency too mithral full plate.
Note that the profiency is only relevant for the ACP to attack rolls, it's the same with Rangers in mithral armors that would restrict their combat style if it wasn't mithral and will penalize their attack rolls with ACP if the don't have profiencyI have to disagree here, while it's correct that just getting the profiency for medium and heavy armor doesn't let you cast in them without ASF - until you reach Magus 7 and 13 - a mithral breastplate is a light armor - you just don't have profiency in that kind of armor since the profiency breastplate comes only with the medium armor profiency feat.
Do you have other sources regarding this issue other than the mithral description and the Magus class description?
I don't quite understand what your question is. But I'll take a shot in the dark at a response. There's nothing stoping a Wizard, who can cast almost all the same spells a Magus can, even to the point of cribbing from a Magus' spellbook from taking all 3 armor proficiency feats. However those feats don't save him from ASF rolls for spells that use somatic gestures. So in the Magus case it's not just the armor proficiency feats it's the combination of the feats granted by class levels and the class features which pull it off.

![]() |

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:I don't quite understand what your question is. But I'll take a shot in the dark at a response. There's nothing stoping a Wizard, who can cast almost all the same spells a Magus can, even to the point of cribbing from a Magus' spellbook from taking all 3 armor proficiency feats. However those feats don't save him from ASF rolls for spells that use somatic gestures. So in the Magus case it's not just the armor proficiency feats it's the combination of the feats granted by class levels and the class features which pull it off.LazarX wrote:Sebastian Hirsch wrote:If you don't get the armor proficiency from magus class levels, you're going to be dealing with the arcane spell failure chance you'd have if you were a wizard.
I believe this is correct, once you have the profiency (multiclass or just taking the feats) you can a mithral breastplate from level 1 to 7 and after that if you have that profiency too mithral full plate.
Note that the profiency is only relevant for the ACP to attack rolls, it's the same with Rangers in mithral armors that would restrict their combat style if it wasn't mithral and will penalize their attack rolls with ACP if the don't have profiencyI have to disagree here, while it's correct that just getting the profiency for medium and heavy armor doesn't let you cast in them without ASF - until you reach Magus 7 and 13 - a mithral breastplate is a light armor - you just don't have profiency in that kind of armor since the profiency breastplate comes only with the medium armor profiency feat.
Do you have other sources regarding this issue other than the mithral description and the Magus class description?
Well I am prone to state arguments in a way that is less than clear, please believe me that it made some sense in my head. ^^
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Sorry for all the typos in the first post, it seems the word proficiency just doesn't like me ^^
The bolded part is the base for the following statement:
A mithral breastplate is a light armor for class abilities that will only work if the wearer wears light armor, like many of the Duelists class features. The only exception to this is, that the character will suffer nonproficiency penalties (armor check penalty to his attack rolls, in this case just -1).
So a Bard, Summoner and Magus (all get the ability to cast in light armor in the section weapon and armor proficiency with similar or even identical language can all run around in mithral breastplates and cast spells - note that they suffer -1 penalty on attack rolls unless they get proficiency with medium armor (or maybe just breastplate if that is even an option).
Once the Magus has reached level 7 and gained the ability to cast in medium armor (and now has gained the proficiency twice) he can now wear a mithral full plate but will suffer the ACP unless he has or gains proficiency.

![]() |
I don't quite understand what your question is. But I'll take a shot in the dark at a response. There's nothing stoping a Wizard, who can cast almost all the same spells a Magus can, even to the point of cribbing from a Magus' spellbook from taking all 3 armor proficiency feats. However those feats don't save him from ASF rolls for spells that use somatic gestures. So in the Magus case it's not just the armor proficiency feats it's the combination of the feats granted by class levels and the class features which pull it off.
Its not gaining the feat that's important its the specific ability to cast in armor of that type, which is separate from the feat. At 1st level a magus gains the ability to cast in light armor, 7th medium, and is it 13th for heavy?
Mithril armor, however, is treated as one level lighter for all purposes except proficiency. A first level magus can grab mithril breast plate and cast all day long without problems because he can cast in light armor. He will, however, take the armor check penalty to attack.

![]() |
LazarX wrote:I don't quite understand what your question is. But I'll take a shot in the dark at a response. There's nothing stoping a Wizard, who can cast almost all the same spells a Magus can, even to the point of cribbing from a Magus' spellbook from taking all 3 armor proficiency feats. However those feats don't save him from ASF rolls for spells that use somatic gestures. So in the Magus case it's not just the armor proficiency feats it's the combination of the feats granted by class levels and the class features which pull it off.Its not gaining the feat that's important its the specific ability to cast in armor of that type, which is separate from the feat. At 1st level a magus gains the ability to cast in light armor, 7th medium, and is it 13th for heavy?
Mithril armor, however, is treated as one level lighter for all purposes except proficiency. A first level magus can grab mithril breast plate and cast all day long without problems because he can cast in light armor. He will, however, take the armor check penalty to attack.
No... he will be both non proficient with the armor and he will be suffering spell failure chances as it is STILL heavy armor in class. The specific class rules on magus spell combat override the descriptions of the mithril breastplate as the item does not take into account the magus class rules.

![]() |
No... he will be both non proficient with the armor and he will be suffering spell failure chances as it is STILL heavy armor in class. The specific class rules on magus spell combat override the descriptions of the mithril breastplate as the item does not take into account the magus class rules.
There is no such thing as "heavy armor in class" in the rules. Nor is there any specific rule that states a magus doesn't gain the benefit of mithril armor. You're reading and injecting your own bias. Try and go back and read it with an eye for what is really there and what isn't. Don't let your own bias's get in the way.
Let's look at it from the perspective of another class: Barbarian. The barbarian gets fast movement in light and medium armor. Mithril full plate is medium armor. Ergo, the barbarian can use fast movement in mithril fullplate, regardless of rather or not he is proficient with it. (Though a barbarian wearing armor he's not proficient with is an idiot, same as with a magus.)

![]() |

ShadowcatX wrote:No... he will be both non proficient with the armor and he will be suffering spell failure chances as it is STILL heavy armor in class. The specific class rules on magus spell combat override the descriptions of the mithril breastplate as the item does not take into account the magus class rules.LazarX wrote:I don't quite understand what your question is. But I'll take a shot in the dark at a response. There's nothing stoping a Wizard, who can cast almost all the same spells a Magus can, even to the point of cribbing from a Magus' spellbook from taking all 3 armor proficiency feats. However those feats don't save him from ASF rolls for spells that use somatic gestures. So in the Magus case it's not just the armor proficiency feats it's the combination of the feats granted by class levels and the class features which pull it off.Its not gaining the feat that's important its the specific ability to cast in armor of that type, which is separate from the feat. At 1st level a magus gains the ability to cast in light armor, 7th medium, and is it 13th for heavy?
Mithril armor, however, is treated as one level lighter for all purposes except proficiency. A first level magus can grab mithril breast plate and cast all day long without problems because he can cast in light armor. He will, however, take the armor check penalty to attack.
A. He has the very same class feature as the bard, so the problem exists since the core rulebook came out.
B. The spell combat ability does not mention armor at all.C. Compaired to the Bard, the Magus just gets better at casting in armor
D. Specific beats general, if a general rule says you can't and a specific rules says you can - you can.
Example: You suffer penalties against invisible creatures, but if you you see them by using true seeing, they disappear.

Arcaleth |

That's why I'm not sure. See we've been low.on wbl, so a free magic weapon frees alot of gold but the blade's powers seen pretty ordinary. And no extra arcana sux (i was gonna use it.to get flight hex next chance.)
The money savings was what tipped me towards that archetype too. The weapons power is negligible. Being able to use the force descriptor for weapon damage has been useful. You can purchase stronger weapons by mid levels. The flight hex is one of the better ones. I left it out of my build though. I went dex build, and figured I was going to be wearing Celestial Chainmail. The flight spell being built-in I thought I wouldn't need it. I've had mixed results. There are a few times it still would have been handy.

![]() |

Varrel wrote:That's why I'm not sure. See we've been low.on wbl, so a free magic weapon frees alot of gold but the blade's powers seen pretty ordinary. And no extra arcana sux (i was gonna use it.to get flight hex next chance.)The money savings was what tipped me towards that archetype too. The weapons power is negligible. Being able to use the force descriptor for weapon damage has been useful. You can purchase stronger weapons by mid levels. The flight hex is one of the better ones. I left it out of my build though. I went dex build, and figured I was going to be wearing Celestial Chainmail. The flight spell being built-in I thought I wouldn't need it. I've had mixed results. There are a few times it still would have been handy.
Well you can spend points on black blade strike it increase weapon damage a bit - it's a free action too. If you ever manage to reach level 19 (unlikely in an AP, but I usually extend mine to 20) life drinker will turn you into a true monster^^.
On a related not, my Hexcrafter Black Blade Magus just leveled to level 4 and I have a hard time to decide the my hex. My group consists of a Bard with the Magican Archetype, an Evoker, a Synthesist Summoner,a Figher/Urban Barbarian and me.
We play Serpents Skull and am a bit spoilered regarding the mental immunities of our scaly "friends".
Later I reallllly want the retribution hex and maybe he one that freezes an enemy.
But when it comes to the first hexes, flight, evil eye, fortune, misfortune and healing all have their advantages.
Of course they all screw up my spell combat.... it has been pointed out to me that I can`t take hex strike, since I do not have the hex class feature. :(
So what would you suggest?
Danaris Kosuke Andarin
LN Magus 4
Stats:
STR: 19 (16 point buy +2 human +1 from leveling )
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (my black blade katana)
Magical Lineage
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Katana) (legal since the Katana is a martial weapon)
Armor: currently chain shirt
Hex: still undecided; evil eye screws up spell combat action economy,
My planed Build:
Feats per Level:
1. Toughness, Dodge
3. Weapon Focus (katana)
5. Intensify Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7. Elemental Spell / Piercing Spell / Combat Casting / Spell Penetration
9. Lunge / Spell Penetration / Combat Casting
11. Improved Critical (katana), Quicken Spell
13. Extra Arcana (to pick up an arcana - spell blending sounds good - or another major hex )
15. Spell Perfection (shocking grasp could be fun, or maybe vampiric touch)
17. Greater Weapon Focus (katana), Extra Arcana
Magus Arcana:
3. None
6. no idea - arcane accuracy locks good
9. wand wielder - or another hex
12. Retribution hex Icy Tomb hex - or devoted blade
15. Bane blade
18. ???