STR Ranger wrote: Exactly.
You can ATTACK with the weapon normally.
OR you can cast from the wand.
MY POINT is in requard to Spellstrike.
Spellstrike says when you cast a TOUCH spell, you can deliver that spell via a weapon attack.
So. Use you Scimitar/Wand of Shocking grasp to Cast the spell.
Because shocking grasp is a touch spell it can be delivered via a free weapon attack, rather than a touch attack.
For other spellcasting classes it's either /or.
I see no reason why this doesn't work with spellstrike.
Assuming this worked as you're suggesting (and I don't think it does, because you're activating a magic item not casting a spell), how would it different than holding the wand in your off hand and activating it? If the spell from the wand could be used with spellstrike, you wouldn't need to have it imbedded in the weapon to do so.
yeah, I agree :( it does say when you CAST the spell, and that different to activating a wand.
STR Ranger wrote: yeah, I agree :( it does say when you CAST the spell, and that different to activating a wand. I was actually fairly excited when I first saw the spell too. I was sad when I thought about it with my GM hat on instead of my Player hat. :(
That said, I still think the spell is useful to a magus (or any caster who wants to weild a weapon, cast spells and use a wand in the same combat) since it lets you do all 3 with only 2 hands without having to juggle the wand in and out of a container.
I've been trying to search this thread for advice on a matter, but haven't come across any specific ideas so I thought I would ask:
How do you ensure that your Magus remains alive? And what is the viability of a Magus as a "primary" melee fighter?
I intend on taking Toughness at level 3, since I'm going the High Dex, elf, 0 constitution bonus route. But how many of you have experience with this and how viable is it? Likewise, only having light armor available for the first 7 levels, and no bonus to constitution to speak of, could this/a Magus serve as the primary melee're of a 4-6 person party? And what is the recommendation for gear for such a character.
Bladebound Elf Magus for reference.
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Taleek wrote: I've been trying to search this thread for advice on a matter, but haven't come across any specific ideas so I thought I would ask:
How do you ensure that your Magus remains alive? And what is the viability of a Magus as a "primary" melee fighter?
I intend on taking Toughness at level 3, since I'm going the High Dex, elf, 0 constitution bonus route. But how many of you have experience with this and how viable is it? Likewise, only having light armor available for the first 7 levels, and no bonus to constitution to speak of, could this/a Magus serve as the primary melee're of a 4-6 person party? And what is the recommendation for gear for such a character.
Bladebound Elf Magus for reference.
If, as a Magus, you spend significant resources on defensive spells, you can be nearly untouchable as a front line melee guy. Vanish at level one allows you to launch a full attack and then go invisible (50% miss chance from total concealment), and second level Mirror Image will make you nearly untouchable by attacks while its up.
As well, respectable AC is definately attainable as a magus; a chain shirt plus shield (which is useful for magi due to reduced action economy issues) is +8 at the very low end, plus dex.
And with armor proficiency scaling as you level, your AC should scale nearly as well as anyones. Bladebound magus also means that funds that others would spend on weapons you can spend on better armor, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, and cloaks of resistance.
Hello there!
Excuse me for not reading the entire thread (I will eventually).
I have a short question as I don't possess any Pathfinder books(our GM does).
Concerning: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/hexcrafter
Here, it says
Quote: Magus Arcana: The following magus arcana complement the hexcrafter archetype: arcane accuracy, broad study, familiar, and quicken magic. Does this actually mean the hexcrafter only has access to
these Magus Arcana (and Accursed Strike, Hexes)?
Similarly,
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magu s-archetypes/bladebound)
the bladebound seems to has access to only 4 Magus Arcana
while he/she gets 5 Magus Arcana free?
Quote: The following magus arcana complement the bladebound magus archetype: arcane accuracy, broad study, dispelling strike, and reflection. I must be making a mistake.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Its just the author of the article telling you what he thinks thematically makes since for such a character. You can still pick whichever magus arcana you like.
Maezer wrote: Its just the author of the article telling you what he thinks thematically makes since for such a character. You can still pick whichever magus arcana you like. Thanks. That makes those archetypes much more attractive.
1. Toughness
2. (I) Spell Shield
3. Weapon Focus
4. Elemental Spell (metamagic)
5. (S?)Hex Flight
6. intensify spell (metamagic)
7. lunge
8. (I) Lingering Pain (Su)
9. (S)Critical Strike (arcanus)
10. Critical focus
11. Bleeding Critical(Critical)
12. Maximize spell
13. Spell perfection
14. Greater Weapon Focus
Arcana
1. Close Range
2. (hex) fortune
3. Empower
4. (2P)Accurrate strike
5. Maximized Magic
6. (P) Bane blade
7. (S) Quickened Magic
So I decided to make a human hex magus. Mostly due to wanting a few extra spells, and wanting the options for hexing if it came to it.
My thoughts first on the hex magus. I HATE the arcane option they get. You can cover the same for more than just curses with a different option. Also, what the point in telling me I can choose at 20th level some powers when I CANT CHOOSE THEM? Thats a little cruel. I have to be epic level? Kinda lame.
So my character was allowed two traits to start. I took one that gave me a -1 to shocking grasps level when I meta magic it, and another that gave a +2 to concentration checks. See, I thought concentration may be harder at the start, but as a 6th level spell caster my caster level would out strip the spell difficulty to cast them, so I would only need a small bonus to start.
So even though I am a hex magus I only chose a few hexes. Flight is awesome, and fortune seemed a great way to help out people that were making certain checks without me.
My overall thought was slowly build towards spell perfection, and with the trait I had, cast a maximixed intensed shocking grasp as a level one spell for 60/120 damage.
Then I added a little crit confirmation (+4 to make sure I do 60 extra damage? Why not) and then added bleed to that. (It STACKS??? yes please.)
With flight, I could swoop in, hit a monster, fly away and let him bleed.
If I fought a caster, swoop in, hit hard, lingering pain and shut his casting DOWN. Lingering pain on a shocking grasped flaming keen bane wep is just.. yeah you arent casting.
For high ac? Touch attacks.
I took elemental to have a maxed intense shocking grasp that did acid too, so that if it was immune to shock, I could burn it for just as much and it would be a level 2 spell. I really hope I am reading it right and that I can choose to have more than one on it, just one is free the rest would add in to its level. If not, its basically telling me instead that I can take a maxed shocking grasp as a level ZERO with my trait, which seems even cheaper :P
What I would like? Power attack. I can see trading out greater wep focus for it. After all, if I am making touch attacks, Id like to add some extra damage to that.
Why did I choose close range? The guide asked us to say why. Simple for me, I am fighting a rather high undead area in the start of the game. Disrupt undead allowed me to do an extra 1d6 and never run out. 2d6 on crits. And never run out. I liked that.
I dunno, thoughts? I still want power attack somewheres, but I liked the bleed crit I was doing. I had originally chose the arcana to do it, but I realized that swift/ immediate actions were my bread and butter. I could tailor make my choices based on if I crit or if I didn't, then go from there.
I am only level 5, but so far it's pretty cool. Personally I think wait til level 7 to take intensify. If not, you are wasting a feat for 5 levels.
Please give me some feedback. I am kinda new to all of this, but I'd like to hear some thoughts.
Oh the I, S P and 2P are if its a swift immed point required ect. I dont think I even finished that list, there could be more. Was just trying to keep a track of swift actions because like I said, this class makes a lot of use of them.
Talon Stormwarden wrote: STR Ranger wrote: Exactly.
You can ATTACK with the weapon normally.
OR you can cast from the wand.
...
I see no reason why this doesn't work with spellstrike.
Assuming this worked as you're suggesting (and I don't think it does, because you're activating a magic item not casting a spell), how would it different than holding the wand in your off hand and activating it? If the spell from the wand could be used with spellstrike, you wouldn't need to have it imbedded in the weapon to do so. I think it's reasonable that you can spellstrike from your newly merged weaponwand, as long as you have the Wand Wielder arcana which this seems to synergize perfectly with.
This also opens up a different fighting style:
KrispyXIV wrote:
As well, respectable AC is definately attainable as a magus; a chain shirt plus shield (which is useful for magi due to reduced action economy issues) is +8 at the very low end, plus dex.
Krispy meant the spell, but what about using a shield? You would only have the one spell in your wand to spam, along with your arcane pool weapon powerups, but it could a defensive one trick pony for the first couple rounds of a fight before you toss the shield and revert to full casting. Seems legal, though obviously that can be argued and is up to each DM to determine. What do you think, is it worth the extra AC at the cost of your spell selection?
I believe that the close range magus arcana is a amazing arcana and should be picked up early on and here are my reasons,
1. you can use spell strike at all times with spell combat, Meaning you can spell combat, cast shocking grasp (for 5d6 dmg ) then deliver it thru your wep at full bab, and follow up with the rest of your normal attack routine netting an extra attack that round. (more attacks = more dmg)
2. Early on you have less spells so can do this less each day, that being said acid orb is a low dmg spell but when you stack it with your normal wep dmg and any other modifiers you have on wep attacks its a free attack every round even when your out of spells as acid orb is a cantrip range touch spell and you have no normal cantrip touch spells.
3. and lastly criting scorching ray at high lvls can net some good damage thou my bread and butter spell is frigid touch its nice to have a free resource to fuel spell strike as you can always spell strike and free extra attacks/ a tiny bit of dmg (1-3 on acid orb and negating regen on some mobs) is not bad.
Thank you for your time would love to hear your thoughts on this =)
(side note) I have not fully read thru all posts here just read the guide and a few pages of posts if this issue has been addressed just delete me)
I meant to say Acid splash not acid orb.
Mort-- you can already do that with the spell arcane mark. Arcane mark is a touch range spell you can spell combat to deliver and it doesn't require you to use up a Magus Arcana.
Also, the downside of Close Range + scorching ray is that you can only deliver one of the rays when using it with spell combat. It's arguably better in my opinion to spell combat, fire three 4d6 rays at the usually much lower touch AC (~42 damage avg), and then step forwards and finish a full attack than it is to spell combat scorching ray, fire weapon damage (1d6+15~) and one 4d6 ray (14) at a higher AC and then finish the full attack.
Though the whole Arcane Mark is a little cheesy, I agree with Ice Titan.
By level 3 (and even more by lvl 6 if you are a bladbound magus) it's better to get the arcana that lets us use wands and get a wand of true stike to get that extra hit
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Just preordered 1001 Spells Hardcover, which has spell lists for the magus. As soon as I recieve it I will post if there are any most have spell on the line of shocking grasp or frostbite.
More questions that may be obvious: At what level of Magus do you guys start effectively using Spellstrikes? It would seem to me that the DC for casting defensively doesn't become a "sure thing" until perhaps around 7th level, so how successful has everyone been with spellstrike at very early (1-3) levels?
Hexcrafter get brand as a zero level spell because it has the curse descriptor and can spellstrike with that as it is not cheesy as it does damage.
So this is a pretty long thread so forgive me if I have asked a question that was already covered.
I'm starting a new Pathfinder game and I'd like to know more about the mechanics of Spell Combat/Spellstrike and how they work together. Spell Combat allows for a Full-Round action to make X amount of Weapon Attacks plus cast a spell (1 stand. act only) in the same turn, yet you take a -2 penalty to all attacks that turn in addition to AoOs for casting a spell. Spellstrike allows a character to channel a spell into their blade for the attack (instead of using a touch attack) as a standard action. SO how do these go together? Is it a full-round action for Spell Combat OR a spellstrike attack but not both in the same round OR can you cast a spell into your weapon, make X amount of attacks using Spell Combat AND cast another spell in conjunction with everything else. It's sort of confusing to me.
Also, I don't know if this came up but the guide lists Magic Missile as red and I think that's a poor application of this spell. With Magical Lineage (Magic Missile), you can add Topple Spell to this and potentially prone up to 5 targets within 190 ft. (38 squares!!) with a 1st level spell.
Diffan wrote: So this is a pretty long thread so forgive me if I have asked a question that was already covered.
I'm starting a new Pathfinder game and I'd like to know more about the mechanics of Spell Combat/Spellstrike and how they work together. Spell Combat allows for a Full-Round action to make X amount of Weapon Attacks plus cast a spell (1 stand. act only) in the same turn, yet you take a -2 penalty to all attacks that turn in addition to AoOs for casting a spell. Spellstrike allows a character to channel a spell into their blade for the attack (instead of using a touch attack) as a standard action. SO how do these go together? Is it a full-round action for Spell Combat OR a spellstrike attack but not both in the same round OR can you cast a spell into your weapon, make X amount of attacks using Spell Combat AND cast another spell in conjunction with everything else. It's sort of confusing to me.
Spellstrike isn't a standard action.
Quote: Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a
spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he
can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as
part of a melee attack.
Spellcombat -> Cast a touch spell -> Choose to spellstrike -> Deliver touch spell with melee weapon at your highest base attack bonus, dealing the spell's effect and melee weapon damage at the same time -> Begin your full attack, starting at your highest base attack bonus and going down
Or you can cast a touch spell, choose to spellstrike, and then take a move action. When you reach your target, you choose to deliver the touch spell as per the rules... but with a melee weapon attack.
You can't cast a spell, attack, cast a spell. Spellstrike is not an action. It is an option when casting a melee touch range spell when wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon.
Quote:
Also, I don't know if this came up but the guide lists Magic Missile as red and I think that's a poor application of this spell. With Magical Lineage (Magic Missile), you can add Topple Spell to this and potentially prone up to 5 targets within 190 ft. (38 squares!!) with a 1st level spell.
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than
15 ft. apart.
Every creature must be within 15ft of every other creature.
If you had three monsters within 5ft of eachother, and one owlbear that was within 15 feet of two of the monsters but at 20ft with one of the monsters, you could not target the farthest monster and the owlbear with the same spell--- you would have to choose one or the other.
But yeah, toppling metamagic is boss if you want to play a tripping magus.
Ice Titan wrote:
Spellstrike isn't a standard action.
Quote: Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a
spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he
can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as
part of a melee attack.
Spellcombat -> Cast a touch spell -> Choose to spellstrike -> Deliver touch spell with melee weapon at your highest base attack bonus, dealing the spell's effect and melee weapon damage at the same time -> Begin your full attack, starting at your highest base attack bonus and going down
Or you can cast a touch spell, choose to spellstrike, and then take a move action. When you reach your target, you choose to deliver the touch spell as per the rules... but with a melee weapon attack.
You can't cast a spell, attack, cast a spell. Spellstrike is not an action. It is an option when casting a melee touch range spell when wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon.
AHHH, now I get it. For some reason I was thinking the act of casting a spell and using it with Spellstrike was it's own thing separate from Spell Combat, and as you said Spell Combat allows you to cast a spell through you weapon to deliver an attack AND give you a full-attack action (all with a -2 penalty). This is why Arcane Mark is cheesy because it grants you an extra attack at your highest attack in addition to your full-attack action for delivering.....arcane mark, lol. Pretty funny though couldn't light work in the same fashion? Or is it because the target is One Object?
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Ice Titan wrote:
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart.
Every creature must be within 15-ft of every other creature.
If you had three monsters within 5ft of eachother, and one owlbear that was within 15 feet of two of the monsters but at 20ft with one of the monsters, you could not target the farthest monster and the owlbear with the same spell--- you would have to choose one or the other.
But yeah, toppling metamagic is boss if you want to play a tripping magus.
Yea, no doubt Magic Missile is in a spot where grouping counts. But even if your targeting 2 or 3 creatures with a Magic Missile, it's not a bad 1st level spell to prone them in addition to Force damage. Too bad the v3.5 feat Energy Substitution doesn't allow for Force damage :(. For my character, I'll probably go the Shocking Grasp/Intensified Spell route to get 10d6 attacks with 1st level spells.
Spell strike is separate from spell combat but the two can be used together.
Close range arcana's pretty horrible. With scorching ray you're missing out on two of the missles (you only get to use one). (I don't remember if you provoke an attack of opportunity or not for the "ranged" attack, probably not.) Better to just use shocking grasp.
ShadowcatX wrote: Spell strike is separate from spell combat but the two can be used together. Yea I wasn't making the connection to using the spell for Spellstrike (as a free weapon attack) in conjunction with Spell Combat (which gives a full-attack round). So an 8th level Magus can Spellstrike with Shocking Grasp (1 weapon attack) then full-attack using the +6/+1 attack progression (including the -2 to all attacks this turn).
ShadowcatX wrote:
Close range arcana's pretty horrible. With scorching ray you're missing out on two of the missles (you only get to use one). (I don't remember if you provoke an attack of opportunity or not for the "ranged" attack, probably not.) Better to just use shocking grasp.
See, I think there are more applications for that Arcana. Firstly, I don't think any sensible DM would allow a player to spam Arcane Mark the way people do. Using it exclusively to spellstrike every turn is just cheesy and no where near RAI. Close range allows you to use Acid Splash and Ray of Frost in such a way to make this accessable (and deal a whopping 1d3 damage to boot *sarcasm*).
Secondly, with multiple rays it's worthless and I wouldn't use it but really how many spells have multiple rays on the Magus (or even wizard's) spell list? There are other spells and ranged touch spells on the Magus list which opens up some versatility. Take into account other supplements (like v3.5 Spell Compendium) and it becomes more viable. Now, this isn't to say it should be labled Green or blue, but I could see it being orange as it's a bit situation (or essential if you want to spellstrike every round for the rest of your character's career).
Arcane Mark is Cheesy. That's why I love Being a Hexcrafter. (They get Brand- basically arcane mark but does 1 point of damage)
STR Ranger wrote: Arcane Mark is Cheesy. That's why I love Being a Hexcrafter. (They get Brand- basically arcane mark but does 1 point of damage) I could see that. I notified my DM of how it works and leaving it up to her to decide if it's a viable option or not. If no, then I go Close Range arcana so I can add those heafty ray-cantrips to my melee attacks though I doubt that'll be til level 5 or 6. Anyone know of some wiz/sor cantrips that deal damage on a "touch"?
Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works?
I'm just curious as to the numbers posted regarding the STR build? How did you get a +13 to hit with Arcane accuracy? Also doesn't spell strike not allow you to make a second attack, but instead substitute your touch attack for a melee attack?
CaspianM wrote: I'm just curious as to the numbers posted regarding the STR build? How did you get a +13 to hit with Arcane accuracy? Also doesn't spell strike not allow you to make a second attack, but instead substitute your touch attack for a melee attack? 4(BAB)+5(STR)+3(arcane accuracy)+1(Weapon+1)+1(Arcane pool)+1(WeapFoc)=15
15-2(spell combat, using spellstrike to replace a touch attack granted by a spell with a weapon attack)= +13/+13
Assumptions
15 point buy: Str 17 (18 at lvl 4), Dex 12, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 7
Lvl 6
+2 STR Item
+2 INT item
+1 weapon
Arcane pool usage = +1 enhancement, keen
No extra concentration penalties from spell combat
At least that's how I came up with that number. But I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to do the same
Drothmal wrote: CaspianM wrote: I'm just curious as to the numbers posted regarding the STR build? How did you get a +13 to hit with Arcane accuracy? Also doesn't spell strike not allow you to make a second attack, but instead substitute your touch attack for a melee attack? 4(BAB)+5(STR)+3(arcane accuracy)+1(Weapon+1)+1(Arcane pool)+1(WeapFoc)=15
15-2(spell combat, using spellstrike to replace touch attack with weapon attack)= +13/+13
Assumptions
15 point buy: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 7
Lvl 6
+2 STR Item
+2 INT item
+1 weapon
Arcane pool usage = +1 enhancement, keen
No extra concentration penalties from spell combat
At least that's how I came up with that number. But I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to do the same Forgot about the stat boosting items. Thanks.
Diffan wrote: See, I think there are more applications for that Arcana. Firstly, I don't think any sensible DM would allow a player to spam Arcane Mark the way people do. Using it exclusively to spellstrike every turn is just cheesy and no where near RAI. First, how is it any cheesier than two weapon fighting? Secondly, you say its no where near RAI but it is a touch spell on the spell list of a class that gets bonuses with touch spells. Do you honestly think the developers are so incompetent that they didn't look at every touch spell on the magus list twice before the published ultimate magic?
Quote: Close range allows you to use Acid Splash and Ray of Frost in such a way to make this accessable (and deal a whopping 1d3 damage to boot *sarcasm*). So using it with arcane mark is cheesy, but doing the exact same thing with a different spell is somehow better?
Quote: Secondly, with multiple rays it's worthless and I wouldn't use it but really how many spells have multiple rays on the Magus (or even wizard's) spell list? There are other spells and ranged touch spells on the Magus list which opens up some versatility. Take into account other supplements (like v3.5 Spell Compendium) and it becomes more viable If you need 3.5 material to be viable, then obviously its not viable. Guides, and this one specifically, are written about pathfinder. Not pathfinder and 3.5.
Taleek wrote: Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works? There are no two-handed weapon archetypes for the magus because spell combat is meant to be two weapon fighting with a spell replacing one of the hands. And yes, it would be unbalanced to allow two-handed fighting on the magus.
CaspianM wrote: Also doesn't spell strike not allow you to make a second attack, but instead substitute your touch attack for a melee attack? No, the reverse actually. You cast a spell and get a free "touch attack." Spell strike allows you to replace the free touch attack with a melee strike and use that to deliver the spell.
ShadowcatX wrote: No, the reverse actually. You cast a spell and get a free "touch attack." Spell strike allows you to replace the free touch attack with a melee strike and use that to deliver the spell. Right, so instead of going against the touch AC of the target, you go against the full AC of the target, with the benne of weapon damage, weapon accuracy and the possibility of critting? Key point is that you don't get to make 2 attacks with Spellstrike, rather 1 that's boosted (or nerfed depending) by weapon damage?
CaspianM wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: No, the reverse actually. You cast a spell and get a free "touch attack." Spell strike allows you to replace the free touch attack with a melee strike and use that to deliver the spell. Right, so instead of going against the touch AC of the target, you go against the full AC of the target, with the benne of weapon damage, weapon accuracy and the possibility of critting? Key point is that you don't get to make 2 attacks with Spellstrike, rather 1 that's boosted (or nerfed depending) by weapon damage? True. The ability to make 2 attacks comes from using spell combat and spell strike together.
Make full attack and cast spell with spell combat. Spell allows a free melee touch attack which spell strike makes a full melee strike. This is how you get 2 attacks at 2nd level along with a spell. (Incidentally, at the same penalty you get for using two weapon fighting. . . imagine that.)
ShadowcatX wrote: CaspianM wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: No, the reverse actually. You cast a spell and get a free "touch attack." Spell strike allows you to replace the free touch attack with a melee strike and use that to deliver the spell. Right, so instead of going against the touch AC of the target, you go against the full AC of the target, with the benne of weapon damage, weapon accuracy and the possibility of critting? Key point is that you don't get to make 2 attacks with Spellstrike, rather 1 that's boosted (or nerfed depending) by weapon damage? True. The ability to make 2 attacks comes from using spell combat and spell strike together.
Make full attack and cast spell with spell combat. Spell allows a free melee touch attack which spell strike makes a full melee strike. This is how you get 2 attacks at 2nd level along with a spell. (Incidentally, at the same penalty you get for using two weapon fighting. . . imagine that.) That makes sense. Right and the class is not a full BAB class which is why the 6th level combo is still only 2 attacks, doh. Ok thanks.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taleek wrote: Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works? The Designer's intent seems to be very very strong on keeping the Magus to one-handed weapons. Even the Quarterstaff Magus is using his stick with one hand.
To answer your first question, it's not something I would allow as a PFS judge, and not particurlarly hot on for my home games either.
ShadowcatX wrote: Diffan wrote: See, I think there are more applications for that Arcana. Firstly, I don't think any sensible DM would allow a player to spam Arcane Mark the way people do. Using it exclusively to spellstrike every turn is just cheesy and no where near RAI. First, how is it any cheesier than two weapon fighting? Secondly, you say its no where near RAI but it is a touch spell on the spell list of a class that gets bonuses with touch spells. Do you honestly think the developers are so incompetent that they didn't look at every touch spell on the magus list twice before the published ultimate magic?
Quote: Close range allows you to use Acid Splash and Ray of Frost in such a way to make this accessable (and deal a whopping 1d3 damage to boot *sarcasm*). So using it with arcane mark is cheesy, but doing the exact same thing with a different spell is somehow better? I think the reason why spamming arcane mark is considered cheesy is that there is no resource investment in getting that second attack.
The existence of the close range arcana seems to indicate that there was an intent in the design to put some cost into the spamming of cantrips to get extra attacks
I'm not saying that it is not allowed. But looking at the rest of the cantrip list and at the fact that arcane mark does not seem to be a very combat oriented spell (once again, this is my interpretation, it can be used for combat and there are plenty of smart ways of using it to mark enemies and such), I would think it more likely to be an oversight in design than an intended exploit
that's my 2 copper pieces. Like I said, it is allowed and its within the rules. I am playing a magus and have avoided using it, but it is a personal choice
Quote: If you need 3.5 material to be viable, then obviously its not viable. Guides, and this one specifically, are written about pathfinder. Not pathfinder and 3.5. Taleek wrote: There are no two-handed weapon archetypes for the magus because spell combat is meant to be two weapon fighting with a spell replacing one of the hands. And yes, it would be unbalanced to allow two-handed fighting on the magus. Totally agree with both points
Drothmal wrote: I think the reason why spamming arcane mark is considered cheesy is that there is no resource investment in getting that second attack. So 2 class levels, of which this is their primary ability, is "no resource investment"?
Quote: The existence of the close range arcana seems to indicate that there was an intent in the design to put some cost into the spamming of cantrips to get extra attacks Do what?
ShadowcatX wrote: Drothmal wrote: I think the reason why spamming arcane mark is considered cheesy is that there is no resource investment in getting that second attack. So 2 class levels, of which this is their primary ability, is "no resource investment"? This is a fallacious argument, since it the usage of cantrips to get more attacks is not the only benefit of spellstrike, which can be used with a lot of powerful or interesting spells (shocking grasp, frigid touch, true strike, etc)
Quote: Do what? Sorry, not sure what you mean by this
Once again, I'm not saying it is wrong or anything, but getting extra attacks usually requires some type of feat or power investment:
-rapid shot is a feat
-two weapon fighting requires feats
-monks/ninjas need to spend ki for obtaining extra attacks (a finite resource)
-Getting extra attacks from haste requires either the spell or a fairly costly weapon enhancement
I'm just saying that, in my opinion, magus having a cantrip that allows to obtain an extra attack indefinitely without any investment besides having 2 levels of magus seems to be a different direction than the design of other similar abilities.
I think is totally valid as RAW and I'd allow is as a DM. But I don't think it was the intent, that's all
LazarX wrote: Taleek wrote: Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works? The Designer's intent seems to be very very strong on keeping the Magus to one-handed weapons. Even the Quarterstaff Magus is using his stick with one hand.
To answer your first question, it's not something I would allow as a PFS judge, and not particularly hot on for my home games either. I can see and definitely agree with this. My primary, and I suppose only, counter to this would be that the description for Spellstrike and a majority of the other abilities aside from Spell Combat, are mentioned as being channeled through the weapon and this doesn't seem like something that should be solely the province of one-handed weapons. Even more with the Staff Magus, as I would figure a near 7ft-tall pole would be just as difficult to wield one-handed as a 5ft-tall length of steel.
...Also, I want to use the elven curved blade. But this makes plenty sense, and I suppose I will stop lobbying for the inclusion of two-handed weapons.
(Please, please, please, no 5 page long TLC/History channel/medieval re-enactor arguments about the cutting power and balance of the Scottish claymore. I know I am making a very basic argument, but I am merely offering it as a counterpoint and a glimpse into my thought process, not as commentary on actual history or the laws of physics.)
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taleek wrote: More questions that may be obvious: At what level of Magus do you guys start effectively using Spellstrikes? It would seem to me that the DC for casting defensively doesn't become a "sure thing" until perhaps around 7th level, so how successful has everyone been with spellstrike at very early (1-3) levels? If you want to increase your effectiveness sooner, consider the Combat Casting feat.
LazarX wrote: Taleek wrote: More questions that may be obvious: At what level of Magus do you guys start effectively using Spellstrikes? It would seem to me that the DC for casting defensively doesn't become a "sure thing" until perhaps around 7th level, so how successful has everyone been with spellstrike at very early (1-3) levels? If you want to increase your effectiveness sooner, consider the Combat Casting feat. Also consider
warding weapon
and
Illusion of calm
lvl 1 spells that make your early spellstrikes not only possible, but awesome!!
And you always have the 5-ft step
Taleek wrote: Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works? Check out Super Genius's New Magus Arcana for what seems like a balanced approach to spell combat with two-handed weapons, in the form of a magus arcana. I don't know how much it was playtested, but Super Genius puts out quality stuff, so I'd allow it.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
wynterknight wrote: Taleek wrote: Also, does anyone think taking an additional -1 penalty on a Spellstrike to be able to use it with two-handed weapons is not viable? Unbalanced? Do we know whether or not there are any possible two-handed weapon archetypes for the Magus in the works? Check out Super Genius's New Magus Arcana for what seems like a balanced approach to spell combat with two-handed weapons, in the form of a magus arcana. I don't know how much it was playtested, but Super Genius puts out quality stuff, so I'd allow it. +1 I was going to recommend the same book.
Drothmal wrote: Once again, I'm not saying it is wrong or anything, but getting extra attacks usually requires some type of feat or power investment:
-rapid shot is a feat
-two weapon fighting requires feats
-monks/ninjas need to spend ki for obtaining extra attacks (a finite resource)
-Getting extra attacks from haste requires either the spell or a fairly costly weapon enhancement
Is it cheesy for a monk to get multiple attacks without having to spend a feat via flurry of blows?
And flurry has the added benefit of granting a higher attack bonus, so you can't say "well that's its only purpose."
I just do not see how someone can argue that using the class abilities with the spells the class has on its on list to get two weapon fighting (a generally inferior method of fighting) is cheesy.
Taleek wrote: I can see and definitely agree with this. My primary, and I suppose only, counter to this would be that the description for Spellstrike and a majority of the other abilities aside from Spell Combat, are mentioned as being channeled through the weapon and this doesn't seem like something that should be solely the province of one-handed weapons. Even more with the Staff Magus, as I would figure a near 7ft-tall pole would be just as difficult to wield one-handed as a 5ft-tall length of steel.
...Also, I want to use the elven curved blade. But this makes plenty sense, and I suppose I will stop lobbying for the inclusion of two-handed weapons.
(Please, please, please, no 5 page long TLC/History channel/medieval re-enactor arguments about the cutting power and balance of the Scottish claymore. I know I am making a very basic argument, but I am merely offering it as a counterpoint and a glimpse into my thought process, not as commentary on actual history or the laws of physics.)
I've been thinking about this, and while I wouldn't say it would work with spell combat, I don't see anything that would prevent it from being used with spell strike. Its a free action to grip or release a grip from a weapon. It would be an extremely gimped method of fighting but after thinking about it I believe spell strike can be used with a 2 handed weapon.
ShadowcatX wrote: Drothmal wrote: Once again, I'm not saying it is wrong or anything, but getting extra attacks usually requires some type of feat or power investment:
-rapid shot is a feat
-two weapon fighting requires feats
-monks/ninjas need to spend ki for obtaining extra attacks (a finite resource)
-Getting extra attacks from haste requires either the spell or a fairly costly weapon enhancement
Is it cheesy for a monk to get multiple attacks without having to spend a feat via flurry of blows?
And flurry has the added benefit of granting a higher attack bonus, so you can't say "well that's its only purpose."
I just do not see how someone can argue that using the class abilities with the spells the class has on its on list to get two weapon fighting (a generally inferior method of fighting) is cheesy. Dude, I was just trying to explain why people call it that. I made clarification after clarification that it was a matter of opinion and made the arguments in the most polite way I could. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't be a smartass and dismiss someone that is just trying to point out a different perspective
It's allowed by RAW, use it if you want. Congratulations
Here is another question/idea that just occurred to me:
How useful is the Blackblade's skill ranks in Knowledge: Arcana? If I am reading correctly, it would seem that even by magus level 20 the intelligent blade would have a K: Arcana modifier somewhere around that of a 4th level Wizard/Magus/etc., which doesn't appear to be that knowledgeable for a mystical, ancient, legendary weapon of yore. Even if the blade is always allowed to take 20, that doesn't seem like that much.
So is there then something that I am missing, or is it pretty much up to the DM to reveal any deeper/greater knowledge, along with the weapon's purpose and so on?
Taleek wrote: Here is another question/idea that just occurred to me:
How useful is the Blackblade's skill ranks in Knowledge: Arcana? If I am reading correctly, it would seem that even by magus level 20 the intelligent blade would have a K: Arcana modifier somewhere around that of a 4th level Wizard/Magus/etc., which doesn't appear to be that knowledgeable for a mystical, ancient, legendary weapon of yore. Even if the blade is always allowed to take 20, that doesn't seem like that much.
So is there then something that I am missing, or is it pretty much up to the DM to reveal any deeper/greater knowledge, along with the weapon's purpose and so on?
As far as I see, you're not missing anything and most of the blade's knowledge will be from DM fiat
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Can someone explain to me why mirror image is such a highly valued spell for a magus? Since you're a melee character, it means you'll be in the thick of things throughout most of each battle, which in turn means you'll be taking a lot of heat. Considering the fact that even the simplest of opponents generally have 2 or 3 attacks right off the bat in Pathfinder, those mirror images are gonna pop way too fast (accounting for all the near misses) for it to be worth spending the time on to cast it at any other time than before battle (assuming you have any time to prepare in the first place, although admittedly it is long-lasting). I'll agree that it's a decent defense spell against a smaller number of targets or in really short battles (ours are mostly epic encounters that last anywhere from 10 to 20 rounds) but unless I'm missing something, there's plenty of better 2nd level spells that you could and should be casting if you have time to do so.
Also, I've decided to take a familiar for flavor as one of my magus arcanas but I'm not really sure what I should be doing with it during a fight. I mean I could polymorph it and have it fight alongside with me but since polymorph spells no longer give you the physical stats of the monster like they did in 3.5, it still wouldn't be useful for anything other than flanking. But that also puts it in harm's way and it would probably just end up dying anyway. Any other combat applications I don't know about? They would have been marginally useful if they could at least hold the charge of something like Frostbite on their own but the darn thing dissipates if you cast another touch spell, so that's also pointless.
Get Improved Familiar as soon as possible for a Mephit or other familiar with oppose-able thumbs and speech, get some wands and scrolls with useful spells. Keep your Use Magic Device skill high (you're doing this, right?)
since familiars use your skills this is a great way to have buffs running on you when you need them. A wand of shield is a cheap investment and likely worth having the familiar cast on you every battle. Eventually getting a wand of magic missile at caster level 9 for multiple missiles will pay off, too.
Think of your familiar as essentially getting additional actions a turn at the cost of a few more in game resources, a magus arcana, and a feat. Well worth it.
Keneth wrote: Can someone explain to me why mirror image is such a highly valued spell for a magus? Since you're a melee character, it means you'll be in the thick of things throughout most of each battle, which in turn means you'll be taking a lot of heat. Considering the fact that even the simplest of opponents generally have 2 or 3 attacks right off the bat in Pathfinder, those mirror images are gonna pop way too fast (accounting for all the near misses) for it to be worth spending the time on to cast it at any other time than before battle (assuming you have any time to prepare in the first place, although admittedly it is long-lasting). I'll agree that it's a decent defense spell against a smaller number of targets or in really short battles (ours are mostly epic encounters that last anywhere from 10 to 20 rounds) but unless I'm missing something, there's plenty of better 2nd level spells that you could and should be casting if you have time to do so. The fact that you can bring this up with Spell Combat and don't lose a standard action doing it makes it very viable. Having used this spell many times for a non-magus gish, the action economy is priceless.
Yes, vs. enemies with many attacks or vs. many enemies, it is going to wear out faster. But miss chances > AC in mid to higher level scenarios. And it makes the magus have more staying power on the front line.
At higher levels, mirror images become more and more silly until you have 8.
And at that point, you have 87.5% concealment. And that's just awesome. Or, the enemy can close their eyes and attack you. In which case, if your GM is doing that... ready an action to five-foot step back when attacked and let your teammates kill the uselessly whiffing guy.
Most encounters are supposed to run 3-4 rounds, and many encounters in Pathfinder APs are geared for this length. We rarely see fights go over 1 minute in length (10 rounds) in our AP games. When we do, it's because I'm artificially inflating monster HP for difficulty and giving monsters hero points to burn.
If you're having encounters that regularly run 10-20, you should buy into that dynamic by instead using weaker but longer-term spells like blur, or by investing in long-lasting spells like heroism or false life from Spell Blending.
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