But not the only one. Also a weapon enhancement bonus cannot exceed +5, nor a total of +10 combined with special abilities, so Arcane Pool will be useful only at the beginning of the PC career, until he has the possibility to get an enchanted weapon.
No, no. You're missing the real advantage of Arcane Pool: You dont HAVE to worry about an enchanted weapon. At least, not the way other players do.
A standard Magus will be nearly as well off with any old weapon with GMW cast on it and arcane pool as any of his party members with tons of money sunk into their fancy killin' tool. Better, for most of their career.
So spend that money elsewhere!
I'm working on a Bladebound Kensai I'm going to be playing who's excited because she doesn't have to spend money on weapons OR armor!
Well, money/WBL is a convincing argument. Still, if you do want to surpass DR you need to have a +5 weapon (this is under debate, I read a James Jacobs that temporary weapon enchantments like GMW does not count as surpassing DR. As another proof of this side, there's a spell that function in a smilar way to GMW but actually letting to surpass some DR) and if you want to surpass your enemy's SR you will be needing a Rod and Rod Wielder, so why not tacking two birds with one rock and enhance that rod with keen property (Rod of Lordly Power I think) so you can save your arcane points And your swift action?
Bladebound Kensai is cool for WBL, but you will eventually need an armor...
Bladebound Kensai is cool for WBL, but you will eventually need an armor...
1: GMW does not bypass DR because it says it does not. In a pinch, Arcane Pool does not have this limitation.
2: Why would a Kensai ever need armor? I mean, eventually it'll be slightly better than mage armor to have bracers, but the point at which its cheaper to buy bracers than more int, deflection, etc is probably pretty far off.
EDIT: I just looked, and if you were being AC concious, it looks like you'd be looking into bracers >+5 just after getting your headband and belt +6, ring and amulet +5, and just before you started buying tomes...
[EDIT: just to make a note of it, I'm not trying to argue that Arcane Pool is a poor ability. My point is that if I, as Magus, have to act quickly and strike with efficacy then I don't like to spend my first swift action to enhance a weapon, which almost every other character has his weapon already permanently enchanted, and use up my Swift Action to do so while otherwise I would have cast a quickened spell or activated Arcane Accuracy/Accurate Strike and making after a full spell combat.You're neglecting the positive tradeoff here. You have a blade that's adaptable. Unlike your companion's swords you can have the enchantment that you need to order, flaming, frost, keen, vorpal, etc. Those permanently enchated swords are stuck the way they are.
But actually how many of them are still useful at higher levels (and that is what I am speaking of)? Keen and maybe dancing... Your Magus spells are there for adaptability. You missed the point I'm trying to make in regards of the bladebound that has to constantly rely on arcane pool AND consequently on arcane points.
Just one question:do you prefer using a weapon stuck with his enhancements and use your points to make arcane accuracy or accurate strikes to surely hit your enemy regardless of -2 penalty of spellcombat and possibly the penalty associated for casting in defensive mode
OR
do you prefer always enhance your blackblade, spending points and consuming your action (that could be used in example 1 to cast a quickened shocking grasp, having then an extra spellstrike and consequently extra weapon damage, for example) and not hitting with your shocking flaming icy keen sword because you are also fighting defensively to avoid AoOs while casting during a spellcombat
?
Also, while you are using Arcane Pool to give your weapon the flaming or icy or shocking property remember that nowhere is written that these abilities are activated while you are spending those points, so you have also to use a Standard Action then to activate those abilities.
Finally, I found myself on page 554 core rulebook saying that Str apply on Weapon Damage Rolls, so this is the proof I was looking before. Chapter closed about Energy Attunement.
Bladebound Kensai is cool for WBL, but you will eventually need an armor...1: GMW does not bypass DR because it says it does not. In a pinch, Arcane Pool does not have this limitation.
2: Why would a Kensai ever need armor? I mean, eventually it'll be slightly better than mage armor to have bracers, but the point at which its cheaper to buy bracers than more int, deflection, etc is probably pretty far off.
EDIT: I just looked, and if you were being AC concious, it looks like you'd be looking into bracers >+5 just after getting your headband and belt +6, ring and amulet +5, and just before you started buying tomes...
1) well, it doesn't say anything even that is useful to bypass DR, so I think that's atleast from both sides of view debatable, unlesse there's a clear official example or statement.
2) pretty much those bracers or an haramaki are still useful for a Kensai.
EDIT: maybe you are right saying that in this specific case the enhancement provided would be useful, because of this
These bonuses
can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon
enhancement to a maximum of +5.
Maybe the wording is made for supporting the idea of bypassing the DR, but still I don't know what to say...
1) well, it doesn't say anything even that is useful to bypass DR, so I think that's atleast from both sides of view debatable, unlesse there's a clear official example or statement.
2) pretty much those bracers or an haramaki are still useful for a Kensai
1: Until I hear otherwise, its a strait bonus to your weapons enhancement with no listed differences from normal enhancement. I dont know any reason it wouldn't function normally.
2: Haramaki caps at AC 6, though in theory its good for special armor abilities. Bracers at +8, and thats a true luxury item for the end-end game, because you'll have a lot of purchases before then that give you AC either cheaper or with benefitcial bonuses.
Also, note with a Blackblade Kensai, your options on what you can spend your arcane pool on are a bit more limited as you dont have things like Spell Recall to consume them. You maybe slightly lower on Points by class level, but your uses for them are limited to boosting your weapon, maximizing weapon damage (feels... lackluster for the cost), and Arcana right? Thats not a lot of expenses to make it feel like 1 point per encounter on your weapon is a huge cost.
2: Haramaki caps at AC 6, though in theory its good for special armor abilities. Bracers at +8, and thats a true luxury item for the end-end game, because you'll have a lot of purchases before then that give you AC either cheaper or with benefitcial bonuses.
Also, note with a Blackblade Kensai, your options on what you can spend your arcane pool on are a bit more limited as you dont have things like Spell Recall to consume them. You maybe slightly lower on Points by class level, but your uses for them are limited to boosting your weapon, maximizing weapon damage (feels... lackluster for the cost), and Arcana right? Thats not a lot of expenses to make it feel like 1 point per encounter on your weapon is a huge cost.
I forgot to mention special abilities for Haramaki, you can have a +6 bonus AC and for example heavy fortification or whatever.
I can agree with you that a 1 point comsumption is not that much, but without the Bladebound you can have:
- a few more arcane points (Bladebound reduced to 1/3 per LV)
- an arcana by level 3 and the possibility to take Extra Arcana feat earlier (this is more useful in PFS play)
- not having to use arcane pool for your blackblade, frees your swift action. Even the Arcane Strike is more useful as a Swift Action expenditure than arcane pool because the damage is untyped then multiplied on a critical hit (and criticals happens very often to a magus) and ignores elemental resistances.
Also the majority of the abilities given by arcane pool are activated with a command word which requires a Standard Action. The real one you are looking for is the Keen property and increased weapon enhancement.
I would argue that you will never find a point in time at which Vorpal isn't useful on a 15-20 critical weapon.
To be fair, the threat range of a Vorpal weapon is irrelevant; Vorpal only triggers on a natural 20.
I would argue that you will never find a point in time at which Vorpal isn't useful on a 15-20 critical weapon.To be fair, the threat range of a Vorpal weapon is irrelevant; Vorpal only triggers on a natural 20.
And the black blade enhancements are just that, enhancements, they cannot be traded for abilities.
45ur4:
I think you're missing one point of the black blade here:
There's nothing in the black blade description that says some of it's permanent enhancement can't be spent on abilities, rather than just being a straight +X weapon.
Which means that spell storing could be a perfectly viable option for a black blade to possess: Since it's being wielded by a magus (presumably you don't hand your black blade to other party members any more than you would your wife), you can proceed to use the Arcane pool to push the enhancement up to +5 at that point, and add on any other options that suit you.
Further, a black blade will virtually never have to worry about overcoming DR - That's half the point of the Energy Attunement ability. Energy damage is never subject to DR, and since you've got half a dozen or so energy types to choose from with the attunement ability, you should be pretty much able to find an exploitable type against any foe.
As to the abilities that you can choose to use at higher levels and whether or not they'll be useful... I would argue that you will never find a point in time at which Vorpal isn't useful on a 15-20 critical weapon.
For the first point, ok I agree with you and I (think in past tense?) myself the first time I read the table. It is easy noticeable also that there's no mention at all in the description of the abilities in the same page. I confronted many Gm and their first impression (and so the way they read it and use in their game) was that this is an Enhancement Bonus with which you are stucked. This is under GM fiat.
Second point, energy attunement consumes 1 or 2 points of your Black Blade's ephemeral arcane points reserve. DR also can be surpassed with the enhancement of your weapon and still the damage that comes from your spells is going to damage your enemy, just choose a spell with an element that the enemy is not resistant/immune. Lastly for this point, criticals + spellstrike + spellcombat or spellcombat + fullattack with dimensional door/dashed blade/forcehookcharge + arcane strike are sufficient to ignore a reduction of damage even of 15. The ability itself is great though, I admit it and that's not infact my concern with the Bladebound.
Last point, Vorpal function only on a natural 20, so I'm not sure about what you are trying to say... Other abilities like flaming and the like are a waste because of the resistances and immunities of your enemies, but if you find them useful you can still enhance normally a weapon with crafting...
And the black blade enhancements are just that, enhancements, they cannot be traded for abilities.I would argue that you will never find a point in time at which Vorpal isn't useful on a 15-20 critical weapon.To be fair, the threat range of a Vorpal weapon is irrelevant; Vorpal only triggers on a natural 20.
I am of the same thought here, but I would be glad to have a clarification on that topic.
And I'm pretty sure you don't need to add a command word to the abilities you apply via arcane pool... not to mention I always thought the portion about it requiring a standard action related to non-sensical command words.
Otherwise why would there be the bit about risking activating it in normal conversation if there was a real word used? In normal conversation you're not taking standard actions to speak, but rather free actions.
Arcane Pool does not make an exception so it's still needed a command to activate it. Maybe it requires a Standard Action because you have to pronounce carefully while wielding the item in front of you like reciting an important Ritual (many movies comes to mind). 16th level Soulforger would be happy to be in front of a Bladebound using this...
Arcane Pool does not make an exception so it's still needed a command to activate it. Maybe it requires a Standard Action because you have to pronounce carefully while wielding the item in front of you like reciting an important Ritual (many movies comes to mind). 16th level Soulforger would be happy to be in front of a Bladebound using this...
Actually, there's nothing which states whether the 'default' state of a 'flaming' (or similar) weapon is on or off, so I'd say its whatever the weapons creator determined for a default state when the weapon weas made. Since you're 'creating' it on the fly...
I would say truely bad form to suggest it has to be turned on after using a swift action to already empower it. The swift turns it on if desired, elsewise your stealing the perk.
| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, 2 things should be cleared to make more reliable judgements:
1) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
2) A Magus uses Arcane Pool to make his weapon a +1 flaming katana: does he need then to spend a standard action to activate with a command word the flaming ability?
If you think that clarification is needed, hit the FAQ button on this post.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
In the crafting rules it says a magic item can be further enchanted, so, I don't see a problem to enchant the Blackblade.
And I don't think the +x from blackblades can be used as abilities, it's pretty clear to me.
Well, 2 things should be cleared to make more reliable judgements:
1) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
2) A Magus uses Arcane Pool to make his weapon a +1 flaming katana: does he need then to spend a standard action to activate with a command word the flaming ability?
If you think that clarification is needed, hit the FAQ button on this post.
I think both are pretty clear 'no', but hitting the FAQ button doesn't hurt, so there you go.
As for 1, I think its a pretty good example though of where houserules are very appropriate; especially with an intelligent item, working with your GM to come up with personality traits etc. can be very rewarding. And since you can reflect that in the weapons abilities, I think its a pretty solid case for house ruling how exactly your particular Black Blade works.
Well, 2 things should be cleared to make more reliable judgements:
1) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
2) A Magus uses Arcane Pool to make his weapon a +1 flaming katana: does he need then to spend a standard action to activate with a command word the flaming ability?
If you think that clarification is needed, hit the FAQ button on this post.
I think both are pretty clear 'no', but hitting the FAQ button doesn't hurt, so there you go.
As for 1, I think its a pretty good example though of where houserules are very appropriate; especially with an intelligent item, working with your GM to come up with personality traits etc. can be very rewarding. And since you can reflect that in the weapons abilities, I think its a pretty solid case for house ruling how exactly your particular Black Blade works.
I don't think there is any need for houseruling, it's an evolving inteligent weapon, no biggie. If you follow the rules on inteligent itens it will already be awesome, and you can enchant it further if you like.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
You are missing the second part of the first question:
Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
These are legitimate doubts, re-read previous posts. Hit the FAQ button or just ignore them and move on the thread.
For example, there are not actually real feedbacks for the Skirnir nor the Myrmidarch neither the Soulforger.
Also, is there anyone out there that plays an Int based Magus?
You are missing the second part of the first question:
Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?According to the rules, yes.
I guess he means like using int for attack, damage, AC and the like. Unless he means somethign else. Can't imagine what else.
I suppose I can throw in my 2 coppers about the new archetypes.
Myrmidarch: Some interesting options here you replace a lot of the magus options for fighter options. Overall weak because you lose most of what makes a magus a magus. However if you wanted to play a more classic gish it does function. I'd rate this one to two stars.
Skirnir: So for about the first few levels your shield bonus will be counting about 50% of the time maybe more or less depending on how often you cast spells with that hand. Thankfully we can get really cheap and move the weapon to a light shield hand, cast, move back, adn then spell strike if we want. That feels cheesy but is the only way some classes can function with a shield. The archetype emphasizes shield combat and that'll color the feats. Again you lose spell recall and knowledge pool and also lose quite a bit. Seems like a whole lot to lose for the ability to smack people witha shield.
Soulforger: Um crap? You basically lose a lot of good combat realted stuff to get things that...make you craft faster? Make your weapon ahrder to sunder? Bonds you irrevocably to said weapon?
I think 'Int based' implies prioritizing Int (and spellcasting) over a physical stat (str or dex) as a core part of your build.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's just my impression, but every Magus build I read prioritaze Str/Dex over Int, both for the basic score and by level progression. Even in Walter's Guide is evident (Str build has 18 Str and 14 Int; Dex build has 19 Dex and 16 Int) a predilection for the Physical one over Int.
I do prefer indeed a Int base magus like this:
human 16,11,13,18,10,7 or
tiefling 11,18,13,18,10,5
and by leveling up put every point into INT and divide my magical equipment between Str/Dex and Int enhancement.
More Int means:
- more arcane points
- a consequence of the first, more times you get use of arcane pool and magus arcana that requires arcane points and more spell recall
- more spells and more successfull concentration checks
- more skills (ice on cake)
- more affinity to Magus stuff in general (rod related arcanas, wand related arcanas, spells that use Int like Bladed Dash and Telekinesis and Bestow Curse for Hexcrafters).
Just curious.
Other random considerations:
1- chill touch and frostbite should have been rated higher. Expecially the latter. A quick comparison between shocking grasp and frostbite:
- by level 2, assuming a spellstrike and spell combat
SG: (1d6 weapon + your Str damage (assume a +4) + 1 per weapon enhancement) * 2 + 2d6 with SG, with a 15% to crit (with a 18-20 weapon) for a total of 27.15 medium damage
FB: (1d6 weapon + 4 Str + 1 weapon enhancement + 1d6 + 1 cold damage) *2, with the same 15% probability to crit, for a total of 29.6 medium damage.
- by level 10, spell combat + spellstrike and extra attack for haste/boots/haste assault/whatever
SG: (1d6 weapon + 6 Str + 3 weapon enhancement + 4 power attack) * 4 attacks + 15d6 empowered intensified SG, with 30% critical keen weapon, totaling 153.15
FB: [1d6 weapon + 6 Str + 3 weapon enhancement + 4 power attack + (1d6+10)*1.5 empowered frostbite ] * 4 attacks with 30% critical, totaling 187.5
- by level 20, spell combat + spellstrike + extra haste attack + quickened magic (gives you one more spellstrike melee attack)
SG: (1d6 weapon + 9 Str + 5 weapon enhancement + 8 power attack) * 6 attacks + 60 + 5d6 maximized intensified empowered SG + 15d6 quickened empowered intensified SG with 30% critical, total of 358.9
FB: [1d6 weapon + 9 Str + 5 weapon enhancement + 8 power attack + (1d6+20)*1.5 empowered frostbite] * 6 attacks with 30% critical, total of 464.85
2- shatter defenses is a good feat chain for Magi, increasing their chance to hit. If Cha is dumped, take them and pick up a Lord's Banner (Terror) or atleast with spellblending arcana get the fear spell. If you are good with intimidation (expecially Str magus with intimidating prowess feat) grab also enforcer to make your enemy flat-footed during your spellcombat routine (you don't have to cast fear here). Just note also that Frostbite deals nonlethal damage, so I recommend a spellstrike+spellcombat with frostbite and enforcer. Also Kensai by level 13th get Int to damage against flat-footed enemies.
3- get contingency and put a Bladed Dash on it.
Stuff about Bladebound and Shocking Grasp vs Frostbite
I think there are some things that you aren't taking into account in both discussions. First I'll tackle the Black Blade:
The difference in arcane pool isn't quite as big as it seems, it's not 1/2 level vs 1/3 lvl, it's 1/3 lvl + the sword's pool, a difference of 1-3 points total.
You aren't choosing between Arcane Pool, Black Blade strike, and Arcane strike they all stack, it just takes a couple rounds to wind up, and they all get multiplied on a crit.
Next Shocking Grasp vs Frostbite... I'm not going to say that Frostbite is awful, but I think your numbers are skewed. Frostbite will do more damage per cast, but the damage is spread pretty thin. The big advantage that SG has is that all of its damage is on attacks that are likely to hit, where FB is spread down the chain of iteratives. On top of that SG has a bonus to hit a decent targets with metal armour. Add in in the math for hitting and confirming crits and you will see a very different picture.
The other problem with FB is that it is nonlethal damage. That completely rules it out against a good chunk of the Bestiary.
That being said, FB definitely has its uses, it's way better against hordes, especially since it can carry through to your AoO, and possibly even last multiple turns (Though you won't get the extra attacks from Spellstrike if you stretch it), but for taking down a big dangerous mob SG is the way to go.
1) Arcane points are vital, also you can't use your Black Blade's pool for your Magus stuff (arcane accuracy and accurate strike, am I the only who gives them this much importance?). Secondly, my concern is that you are going to need to enchant your weapon as your first action in combat every time (an increasing necessity with leveling up), using your swift action that could be used for many other things. Look, the Magus has the possibility to get into melee and make a fullattack on his first turn much more than any other class, thanks to bladed dash/dimension door/force hook charge, putting the Magus in more need of his Arcana for hitting more than your arcane pool to enchant a little. I concede though that if the battle is very long or you have some preparation time before, you can enchant it and spend no swift action.
Also as I said before, arcane pool becomes less useful by advancing in levels because you can already have enchanted permanently your blade and save your swift action for quickened spell/arcana to hit. Arcane pool saves your money, but if the blackblade stuck with its +5 enchantment only, it will waste your time (action economy) that consequently hurts your money (to spend to get more protections or potions or whatever derives from losing your first turn to buff yourself).
First Note: yeah, I know that Xum than eventually will remark me that the blackblade can be enchanted normally. I'm on the same advice here as you Xum, but you can easily see that we are the only two that thinks that's doable...
Second Note: I'm expecting an errata or FAQ answer to blackblade enhancement, this eventually will change my judgement, so until then I'm not going to defend anymore my position. If the BBlade will be enhanceable than I'm going to admit that I were wrong.
2) arcane accuracy and accurate strike for striking true. Resistances and Immunities are a common issue after level 10, even for shocking grasp is a problem. Frostbite and chilltouch are low rated for what they can do, even if they are not good as SG (I consider them equally usable, also note that Frostbite requires less level spell slots and less metamagic, that's a point for FB, you can use infact those freed feat to take Shatter Defense, increasing one more time your chance to hit).
So, the only downside i can see is the colour (i hate white robes, i'm gonna dye mine black and be damned if people think that makes me evil!)
"Darth Banatine" actually sounds kind of cool, right?
I dont like robes for Kensai due to the Jedi look myself, but it sounds mechanically great :)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm playing a 10th (now 11th) level Magus in a game and I do so much more than rush in and thwack the bad guys. I don't mean blasting either, which the Duskblade can do. I mean being the area denial/buffer/utility caster for the group. The Magus is loads more versatile than the Duskblade.
Have your Duskblade friend do something about my Flying, Resist Energy (from the expanded spells arcana), Stoneskinned, Arching Magus.
If you don't like that spell combination how about Greater Invisibility, Haste, and Levitate?
Not your thing? You like to stick and move? Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, and Blink.
Area denial you say? Grease, Web, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles
Oh yeah, the Duskblade is also a blaster. Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Ice Storm.
Here's another combination: Burning Hands, Acid Arrow, Fireball, Ball Lightning
Need someone to tank? Shield, Mirror Image, Stoneskin
You like save or suck spells. The Magus has those too. Color Spray, Glitterdust, Ray of Exhaustion, Phantasmal Killer.
Your friend says that the Magus can self buff? Well he can. True Strike (cast and hit), Bull's Strength, Haste, Monstrous Physique II.
Can't two weapon fight? He has the Magus there, at least technically. Without the Quicken Spell feat, the Magus can Color Spray then full attack the one guy still standing, full attack then turn Invisible, full attack then Force Punch so his foe can't full attack.
Low on hit points? Vampiric Touch, False Life (expanded spells arcana), Wand of Cure Light Wounds while full attacking (use magic device with spell combat and wand wielder arcana)
Mounted Magus? Mount and Phantom Steed.
Enemy too strong? Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Slow.
You want to polymorph? Alter Self, Undead Anatomy I, Beast Shape II.
Punish him for hitting you with Defensive Shock, Elemental Aura, Fire Shield.
For the Gnome Illusionist inside all of us: Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image.
I will stop here. I didn't have all this thought out when I started this post. I decided to keep it at 3rd and 4th level spells that the post made the example with. After the first two, I decided to try and use no more than one spell per level in each example. I also tried not to use any spell more than once. I've probably failed in both, but I hope my point is made anyway. You may also note that I did not make much use of the arcana abilities. Some swear by them, but I don't much use them. However, they are another tool in the Magus' utility belt.
I like the Duskblade. It is a great gish. It can fight and it can blast. The Magus is a whole different thing. It is a potent, versatile Fighter-Mage. It can spell, it can sword, it can spell and sword at the same time to devastating effect.
@Drothmal: I like arcane pool too. What I don't like is to have a blackblade. You can notice that by my previous posts. I used to like bladebound, now I prefer getting a familiar and earlier arcanas.
I do prefer Magus over Duskblade because of the Magus' spell management. If I remember correctly a Duskblade learn and casts spontaneously.
I also did not like the Duskblade spell list, while I really enjoy the spells are given to the Magus in pathfinder.
IMO: Duskblade + pathfinder spells = :Q_ But I admit that spellcombat has much more to offer in power...
Ok, so we can get an earlier response.