It's not exploitative, but here's how it works.
...a bunch of text...
After further investigating (and finally understanding) this technique, I think that the text for spellstrike should read, "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." Drop the "free melee attack" part completely. Either this, or it should explicitly not work with any cantrips. That makes more sense to me.
I don't think the technique is broken, cheesy, or exploitative. It's just something clever someone came up with because Paizo wasn't forward thinking enough to exclude it. Or they left in there on purpose so they could laugh at us while we all argue about something stupid. *shrugs*
Arcane Mark
School universal; Level magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch Effect one personal rune or mark, all of which must fit within 1 sq. ft. Duration permanent Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters. The writing can be visible or invisible. An arcane mark spell enables you to etch the rune upon any substance without harm to the material upon which it is placed. If an invisible mark is made, a detect magic spell causes it to glow and be visible, though not necessarily understandable.
See invisibility, true seeing, a gem of seeing, or a robe of eyes likewise allows the user to see an invisible arcane mark. A read magic spell reveals the words, if any. The mark cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed by the caster or by an erase spell.
If an arcane mark is placed on a living being, the effect gradually fades in about a month.
Arcane mark must be cast on an object prior to casting instant summons on the same object (see that spell description for details).
No where in their does it say arcane mark is an Attack.
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At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the FREE MELEE TOUCH ATTACK normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
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Arcane Mark does not grant you the attack it takes to use spellstrike
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Shocking Grasp
School evocation [electricity]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch Target creature or object touched Duration instantaneous Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal)
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Spells like shocking grasp say its a attack.
James we can tell you are a lawyer or want to be one, most of time I are with you but not on this one, sorry bother
I can't edit with my phone so please fill in the words I missed or misspelled with my fat fingers
Thanks
For those not playing in PFS, just do what I did
Ask the GM if you can replace ray of frost with "frost touch" or "insert name here" and just have a 1D3 <insert element here> damage touch attack cantrip.
Explain WHY you want it and let the GM decide. I guess one can make the arguement this devaules the "close ranged" arcana, but this isn't going to even come close to breaking any games, just like using arcane mark isn't going to break any games either.
I just don't see why a basic elemental or generic touch attack damage cantrip is so out of the question in the grand scheme of the spell selection.
Is it allowed by the RAW? Yes, I think it is. Is it exploitative? Would said Magus run around Arcane Marking all his foes if he didn't get an extra weapon attack? No, he wouldn't. So just invest an arcana or feat and pick up Close Range for Ray of Frost or Spell Blending for Touch of Fatigue and stop trying to rationalize your Zorro magus. It's cheese, pure and simple.
I looked up all the quoted text, and it still seems legit RAW.
Maybe it will get errata'd, maybe it won't. I do accept that it has a limited return - essentially only doing much for the first few levels - and is considerably less powerful than options other classes like the monk have.
Ask the GM if you can replace ray of frost with "frost touch" or "insert name here" and just have a 1D3 <insert element here> damage touch attack cantrip.
Explain WHY you want it and let the GM decide. I guess one can make the arguement this devaules the "close ranged" arcana, but this isn't going to even come close to breaking any games, just like using arcane mark isn't going to break any games either.
I just don't see why a basic elemental or generic touch attack damage cantrip is so out of the question in the grand scheme of the spell selection.
This is exactly what we did, and after a couple days of thought almost the entire cantrip list for sorcerers was opened to the magus at home (no ToF). There is no logical reason why a 1-3 dmg touch cantrip could not be crafted and there is no extreme cheat that the magus achieves by doing this. The party fighter is doing better on every front at this point, as is the monk, and the druids are damned well holding their own also.
This is not granting a bunch of extra damage without risk - concentration checks must be made, or AoO's sustained. There are penalties to hit, and a higher AC target as well. Seems like there are enough penalties to make up for the possibility of a little free melee damage. As pointed out, no magus will be using Arcane Mark past early levels since they have many many many better options.
My issue is not with the damage gained from an extra attack, in fact I imagine the class is based around it. My issue comes from trying to rationalize the use of Arcane Mark in order to do it. If you can honestly say that in any other situation you'd cast it as a touch attack to mark any enemy repeatedly then maybe I'd believe it wasn't just gaming the system. I certainly think the creation of a new touch cantrip would be an easy fix, but still hold to the thought of just spending the 3rd lvl arcana to create the flurry ability is still valid. The magus still "flurries" by casting a standard lvl 1+ spell, the issue is being able to flurry constantly at no cost, ie the use of an unlimited cantrip.
I agree with Homer...It's not the mechanical benefit that bothers me, it's the imagery of every round the magus is carving a letter into people...maybe it's the fact that I watch sesame street just about daily with my daughter, but I keep thinking of the magus as the next "celebrity" on the show singing the alphabet song with elmo, slashing each letter into big bird...
Honestly, if I had a magus in my campaign I would just rule you can make the free attack with the concentration check as if casting a 0th level spell and have it do nothing but get you that free (-2 to hit) attack...just to settle it.
- Homer, Fraust
I agree with you in terms of the feeling that something a little cheesy is going on.
I support letting this happen as IMO this is RAW... but RAI are a separate matter, and until the head honcho's weigh in we just won't know.
the issue is being able to flurry constantly at no cost, ie the use of an unlimited cantrip
This is where I would point out that this technique is not at no-cost. There is a higher AC on the target, a -2 penalty to hit on top of that, and either a required concentration check or suffer an attack of opportunity.
Plus the fact that carving a "Z" on your target's forehead really doesn't give the benefit that a magus would normally expect from even a level 1 shocking grasp.
...though it may leave some interesting Vegas memories involving drug induced journalists
This is where I would point out that this technique is not at no-cost. There is a higher AC on the target, a -2 penalty to hit on top of that, and either a required concentration check or suffer an attack of opportunity.
Which is suffered no matter what spell you cast. The using of Arcane Mark is purely in an effort to get an additional attack with out spending a spell slot. The penalties are the same, the resources spent to do it are not, that's what I meant by no cost. But I do agree that by RAW it's kosher, but if doesn't leave the taste of extra sharp cheddar in your mouth then we just have different tolerances for cheese. ;)
There's a thing i don't understand: why don't use close range magus arcana?
Imho the combo arcane mark + spellstrike + spell combat is legit, yes ( for example, if you want to "mark" a werewolf to find him later ) but why so little love for close range magus arcana?
...with close range, you can, for example, use the combo ray of enfleebement + spellstrike + spell combat and it's not that bad ( giving a penalty to strenght is equal to augment your armor class and gaining a bit of DR against one foe ).
Yes, I know there aren't many ranged touch spell in the magus spell list ( all ranged touch cantrips, ray of enfleebement, ray of exaustion, acid arrow, disintegrate and... i don't know :P )
...but in my opinion ( and experience with a magus ) simply use ray of enfleebement in melee with spellstrike and iterative attack isn't that bad...
...remember: when you miss with a ranged touch spell, the spell is wasted, when make a melee touch spell, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it ( example: you miss ), you can hold the charge indefinitely.
So let's say: a 6 level magus uses a close range ray of enfleebement via spell strike and spell combat. He misses with first attack, but he doesn't lost his spell, and if his second attack hits, then he can discharge his ray of enfleebement on his foe...
...pratically, when I see the close range magus arcana I see optimization of magus' resources.
for example, use the combo ray of enfleebement + spellstrike + spell combat and it's not that bad ( giving a penalty to strenght is equal to augment your armor class and gaining a bit of DR against one foe ).
Can you tell me the logic behind this? how does ray of enfleebement is like augmenting your AC and gaining a bit of DR?
Can you tell me the logic behind this? how does ray of enfleebement is like augmenting your AC and gaining a bit of DR?
If you fight against a foe that uses strenght to hit and damage and fight, let's say, one-handed, and you use ray of enfleebement against him, and if you give him ( for example ) a -4 penalty to strenght, he has -2 to hit and damage: pratically, against him, it's like to have +2 to CA and DR 2/-
Pratically ( of course not in reality )
Can you tell me the logic behind this? how does ray of enfleebement is like augmenting your AC and gaining a bit of DR?
If you fight against a foe that uses strenght to hit and damage and fight, let's say, one-handed, and you use ray of enfleebement against him, and if you give him ( for example ) a -4 penalty to strenght, he has -2 to hit and damage: pratically, against him, it's like to have +2 to CA and DR 2/-
Pratically ( of course not in reality )
Ok, now i get it.
but if doesn't leave the taste of extra sharp cheddar in your mouth then we just have different tolerances for cheese. ;)
I live just an hour from the Tillamook cheese factory here in Oregon. I love's me some aged extra-sharp cheddar.
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As far as close range, yes it is viable but I tend to avoid it because arcana are already limited and I don't want to "waste" my selection on something with so little return.
I live just an hour from the Tillamook cheese factory here in Oregon. I love's me some aged extra-sharp cheddar.
I am sooo jealous! I love some Tillamook extra sharp Special Reserve, though my fave right now is Beetcher's Flagship, try it if you get the chance.
The more I consider the magus issue the more I think a simple touch cantrip GM hand waved onto the list is the best answer since the cost of an arcana or a feat just to be able to flurry against mooks is just a smidge expensive for the return.
Either way, there are several things that haven't really been discussed very much yet (like the Skirnir and the Soul Forger.) It might be nice to get back on topic, since neither camp is likely to budge on the AM issue.
After my Cleric/Spellslinger was recently murdered by a Phase Spider (ouch!), I looked into rolling a Magus. I settled on Bladebound/Kensai, but looked at Soul Forger a bit and decided that... I really didn't like it.
It gives up a ton of good stuff for... a bonded weapon (less good than blackblade IMO), and several ways to make it less sunderable or repair it when sundered. Am I missing something for Soul Forger?
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but if doesn't leave the taste of extra sharp cheddar in your mouth then we just have different tolerances for cheese. ;)I live just an hour from the Tillamook cheese factory here in Oregon. I love's me some aged extra-sharp cheddar.
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As far as close range, yes it is viable but I tend to avoid it because arcana are already limited and I don't want to "waste" my selection on something with so little return.
I live in oregon to, its hard to find pathfinder games here...
I think "Form of the Dragon I" is being underrated. The only true limitation to your spellcasting are spells that require material components. Everything else is valid, so I´m not sure why is it so lowly rated.
Most spell casters wouldn't run around casting random spells if they didn't get something out of their spells. Especially not touch range spells. How does expecting a return on an investment equal "cheese, pure and simple."
Ok, this is how I look at it, what if instead of a magus I was playing a ftr/wiz? Is it conceivable that at some point I'd cast Shocking Grasp( or Touch of Fatigue, Ray of Frost, etc) against my opponent? That I'd cast it more than a hand full of times? I think the answer to that is yes. Now how about Arcane Mark? How many times will I use Arcane Mark in combat as a ftr/wiz? Honestly not that often. So why does the magus? Because he's doing it for no other reason then to generate an extra attack. It smacks to me of meta-gaming, your character has no valid story reason to be marking all his foes, unless you give him one I guess, actually playing Zorro might be fun. But I doubt most people are doing this to play a Zorro concept, the feeling is most are doing it to generate attacks at no cost of character resources.
The reason to do this is to be effective, which is what you do in combat. A fighter might not use his best weapon, or just punch the enemy, or spit in his face, but I doubt he'll do it, unless there is a mechanical benefit attached to it.
It's a design problem, there should be a touch attack there, but, since the only thing a vanila Magus can do is use Arcane Mark, so be it, he'll do what he has to do to win the day. Unless of course u r playing a suicide character that doesn't want to win.
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I think "Form of the Dragon I" is being underrated. The only true limitation to your spellcasting are spells that require material components. Everything else is valid, so I´m not sure why is it so lowly rated.
You also loose all your gear and weapons when you take this form. A magus without his weapon is giving up a lot of power and nearly all his crit chance.
You really would be casting ray of frost more than a handful of times?
I'm sorry, but I can't really buy that.. the 1d3 is too small damage to be worth an action for a PC.
Ok, so of the three examples I gave you see no point in one, what about the others? The idea was that in combat those spells serve a purpose, no matter how insignificant, while Mark doesn't, at least on a regular basis.
@Banatine
The spending of a feat is a character resource, hence why I've said grabing an arcana, either through class feature or feat, solves this problem. Your power attacking fighter trained how to that, so I don't have an issue. And I said that it could work into a cool character concept, I do really like your's by the way :) , but I don't see every magus having that as a concept yet the proposal to use Mark has been on a universal basis under the idea that the class needs it to function in a combat capacity.
I agree with Homer...It's not the mechanical benefit that bothers me, it's the imagery of every round the magus is carving a letter into people...maybe it's the fact that I watch sesame street just about daily with my daughter, but I keep thinking of the magus as the next "celebrity" on the show singing the alphabet song with elmo, slashing each letter into big bird...
I was unaware Zorro was a regular part of Sesame Street.
Why do people always find the most rediculous example they can think of and cling to that?
Ok maybe it is because its late here in my country or I've just missed something: I have to revalue both the Rod Wielder and Rod Mastery Magus Arcana for these two reasons and many more related:
- Grab a Rod of Lordly Might, turn that into the +1 flaming Longsword, than use it as your weapon. With Rod Wielder you add your Int modifier on CL checks to overcome SR when you are making a spellstrike. Assuming a Kensai that choose Longsword as his weapon, Int focused (every point and enhancements goes to your intelligence) and Dex or Str as your secondary attribute, and finally Rod Wielder: by level 20 you can spellstrike with your intensified empowered maximized shocking grasp with a +33 to overcome enemy spell resistance! Things get crazier if you can enchant your Rod of Lordly Might Longsword with the Trasformative quality (APG), because you can trasform that longsword into a Katana :) If Kensai has problems in hitting, he can use Accurate Strike or Arcane Accuracy to recover! Even nastier, take Shatter Defenses tree feat, then use your Rod's fear effect (augmented DC with Rod Mastery to 14 + Int modifier) to at least make Shaken your enemies (and consequently flat-footed) for 1 round. Oh, by level 13th a Kensai adds his Int modifier to damage rolls against flat-footed enemies. This combo has so much uses...
- Grab 2 Rods of Withering, pick up two-weapon fighting tree feat, then grab Rod Mastery as Arcana and Arcane Accuracy, then pimp your Int (Dex is your secondary) and go fighting with your Rods that deals 1d4 STR and CON damage per hit, hitting touch AC... Again, if you can, enchant your Rods with the trasformative weapon quality to make them katanas. On a crit those damage becomes ability drain. By level 20 you should reach a base DC of 28 (15 base for the rod + 13 your Int modifier) that increase with every failed saving throw (because of the Con damage), with 8 attacks (6 comes from two-weapon fighting + 1 activanting your speed boots + 1 quickened shocking grasp to get a free melee attack via spellstrike) dealing a total of 8d4 damage, possibly drain, both Str and Con.
Has anyone mentioned the Opening Volley feat? It seems like an excellent choice for a Magus, especially at low levels.
I think "Form of the Dragon I" is being underrated. The only true limitation to your spellcasting are spells that require material components. Everything else is valid, so I´m not sure why is it so lowly rated.You also loose all your gear and weapons when you take this form. A magus without his weapon is giving up a lot of power and nearly all his crit chance.
Isn´t it possible just to drop the weapon and pick it up? I mean, I think I read somewhere dragons were capable of wielding weapons? Or am I confusing it with something else?
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I was unaware Zorro was a regular part of Sesame Street.
Zorro only did it once. One letter. I think the complaint stems from the hilarious image of a gnome magus carving his eighteen syllable name into the flesh of a hill giant. Granted having HArold Twinklebum Flowerpettle Zentacular Gearperfume the third shredded into your hide sound funny.
Thank u 45ur4 for the interesting take on the rod arcanas, much to think about...
As for those who can't stop posting about arcanemark, go away...
I care not for such cheese and sour bickering
Please turn your thoughts toward new ideas and interesting combinations
I'd like to see more ideas and thoughts, and I think the Arcane Mark discussion has officially hit the brick wall until a Dev says otherwise.
Personally, I'm crossing my finders for Walter to come back to the thread soon. :)
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Isn´t it possible just to drop the weapon and pick it up? I mean, I think I read somewhere dragons were capable of wielding weapons? Or am I confusing it with something else?I think "Form of the Dragon I" is being underrated. The only true limitation to your spellcasting are spells that require material components. Everything else is valid, so I´m not sure why is it so lowly rated.You also loose all your gear and weapons when you take this form. A magus without his weapon is giving up a lot of power and nearly all his crit chance.
DM's call on that, but at the minimum it means you won't be able to spell combat/spellstrike for that round or the next (move action to retrieve that provokes)
My last comment on the Mark discussion...what TarkXT said.
Mathwei ap Niall....Obviously everything is under GM discression, so beyond the fact that they could rule whatever they want, how is this a GM call? You drop your sword, turn into a dragon, pick up the sword, so assuming dragons are capeable of weilding weapons (and if ape animal companions are running around wearing platemail and whacking people with great swords, they'd better be able to). So unless every item the magus picks up after turning into a dragon is absorbed into them (which would open a HUGE can of worms) then it would kinda have to work.
Some random thoughts:
- the Blackblade itself under Energy Attunement ability. I would know how do you interpret this:
[...]a
magus can spend a point of his black blade’s arcane pool to
have it deal one of the following types of damage instead
of weapon damage
To me it seems that Energy Attunement only applies to your weapon basic damage, so 1d8 for a longsword or katana and not the entire 1d8 + your strenght bonus or any other boni, making the Blackblade less attractive. Also, I find the Blackblade an Arcane-Point-Wasting-Machine unless you can enchant it: for having an effective and competitive weapon, you have to use your Arcane Pool ability to render keen or whatever, your Katana and thus consuming your swift action.
- Monstrous Physique and Undead Anatomy gives a Magus a great bonus to Str and increased reach when assuming Large or Huge forms. A Dex-based Magus won't benefit that much from these and similar spells. This is a bonus for Str-based Magi and a point to consider when you are planning to play your Magus. By the level you learn MP IV and UA III, spellstriking your enemy with elemental spells will become less effective than actually buffing yourself because of immunities and spell resistance (unless you are using my suggestion with the rods).
- Soulforger is bad for almost everything, losing too much for little return. I liked though Destructive Counterstrike; Skirnir is good for your defense (and stacks with Bladebound...), making a valid alternative for Staffmagus.
- Am I the only who find a bit irritating having to take the quick draw feat with a class that has Iaijutsu?
EDIT: changed disturbing with irritating.
- Am I the only who find a bit disturbing having to take the quick draw feat with a class that has Iaijutsu?
What!?
Erhm, I change my definition from 'Disturbing' to 'Irritating'. Sorry for the inconvenience, Disturbing is a false friend word and I forgot it... Irritating is what I was looking for :) mainly because the Kensai lets to draw your weapon only during an AoO (this clarified in another topic) or during a surprise round. In every other occasion the character will still be relying on Quickdraw.
45ur4 wrote:
Also, I find the Blackblade an Arcane-Point-Wasting-Machine unless you can enchant it: for having an effective and competitive weapon, you have to use your Arcane Pool ability to render keen or whatever, your Katana and thus consuming your swift action.It only consumes your swift action at the start of combat when you use the Magus Arcane Pool ability to enchant the weapon, which lasts for a whole minute (most combats last only 4-5 rounds). Even without Blackblade it is the most efficient use of the Arcane Pool considering the duration and bonuses it can grant that stack with any existing bonuses your weapon already possesses.
But not the only one. Also a weapon enhancement bonus cannot exceed +5, nor a total of +10 combined with special abilities, so Arcane Pool will be useful only at the beginning of the PC career, until he has the possibility to get an enchanted weapon.
The swift action also is used up for your Arcane Accuracy arcana or Accurate Strike, which are much more useful or can be invested for casting swift action spells (rods or quickened magic arcana) or is even used the round before as an Immediate Action to activate Spell Shield. Also the Keen Property, Agile Property and Spell Storing Property are all useful special abilities that cannot be added to your weapon via Arcane Pool, so with the progression and leveling up Arcane Pool becomes only a waste of your Swift action (and I prefer Arcane Strike as a 'waste' of SA). In the medium-long run you will find Arcane Pool an annoyance and unlesse your GM lets you enchant your blackblade, the only way is enchant Blackblade with not-so-much-good weapon properties. Oh well, if the campaign is full of encounters with surprise rounds you can act then I'll agree with you that Arcane Pool will be your very first action.You are convincing me though, in regards of the weapon damage: do you have any official quote or cite from the books for stating this?
EDIT: just to make a note of it, I'm not trying to argue that Arcane Pool is a poor ability. My point is that if I, as Magus, have to act quickly and strike with efficacy then I don't like to spend my first swift action to enhance a weapon, which almost every other character has his weapon already permanently enchanted, and use up my Swift Action to do so while otherwise I would have cast a quickened spell or activated Arcane Accuracy/Accurate Strike and making after a full spell combat.