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Because some people just like to b!+*#. If it weren't casters, it would be something else.
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Because some people just like to b!+*#. If it weren't casters, it would be something else.
Only if that something else were as gamebreaking as the casters were quite purposefully designed to be.
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So now its the buff they can cast. I am not familiar with Quick study(its not in the PDR as far as the search could find and its not in any book I have seen) But under normal circumstances if you caster has to prepare all utility spells then they are weak/useless in combat and as for spontaneous casting they suffer from they have a much smaller pool of spells to cast anyway so most focus on what their main role is and not a jack of all trades. But I would say its still falls to the GM to find a way to balance that ex: if your party has a buffing maniac counter with the monsters doing the same.
As for the "resting" if you walk out/teleport what's to stop the whole place from "resetting"/hunting the party down at that point. To me that's like some of the Worst GMing to allow that type of play.
its one thing to take it as easy mode to help a new player type party for a GM. But to say Things are too strong because the GM is using Kids gloves on a more veteran party in the first place when the powers they are using are meant to be used in a more challenging setting ......... the only thing I can say to that is you cant complain about it being to easy on easy mode play.
As a GM who actually runs monsters intelligently, let me assure you that if a GM is playing their monsters appropriately, at level 13 the gap between classes with no casting and those with full casting becomes insurmountable. Properly played, high level enemies have tons of SLAs that can completely invalidate an opposing martial. The only way a Fighter can compete at these levels is to invest heavily in UMD and scrolls and do their damnedest to fake being a full caster.
If this does not happen the problem is that the GM is going easy on the party and playing monsters poorly.
Let me assure you as a GM with players: If you are running your monsters appropriately your players will have fun, and not be useless.
Honestly I would love to sit at your table, because I have yet to see a table where a fighter is invalidated because of spell casting that actually plays monsters intelligently or within the rules as written.
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Because some people just like to b!+*#. If it weren't casters, it would be something else.Only if that something else were as gamebreaking as the casters were quite purposefully designed to be.
I don't know you so I'm going to take your statement as honest...for you. But you can't tell me b!+*#ing about everything isn't huge on these boards. You could eliminate magic altogether and people would still find classes to complain about.
I recall seeing a gunslinger hate thread or two...or thirty.
I've said it before, and I probably will end up saying it many more times. There is a subset of people...a large subset...that will complain no matter the situation. Even if you narrowed down choice so you could only get piranha strike or power attack...damnnear the same feat...there would still be people who complain that PA can be two-handed for extra damage, and therefore PS is completely useless.
In any class based system, either everything will be the same mechanics with different fluff, or some choices are more powerful than others, and you need to deal with that fact.
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Ah, 4e Fallacy then? You have good taste.
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Honestly I would love to sit at your table, because I have yet to see a table where a fighter is invalidated because of spell casting that actually plays monsters intelligently or within the rules as written.
Here's a quick and dirty example. The Pit Fiend.
The average encounter with a Pit Fiend played like a creature who wants to live should be spent some odd 280 feet away from the party using Greater Dispel to wreck their buffs and magic items while his Immolation Devil buddy holds the party back for a couple of rounds. And casting Quickened Fireballs. Maybe a Meteor Swarm one round.
Then spent systematically whittling the party down with either Mass Hold Monster or Trap the Soul constantly spammed.
Probably best done after Wishing for something like a Maze to instantly take down the main damage dealer, or Reverse Gravity if he's feeling saucy and nobody's flying.
And that's just off the top of my head, with a CR 20 monster that's actually not all that much of a badass. I'm sure Anzyr can do better since I'm more concerned with an encounter being fun rather than realistic.
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So basically within the first (oops second -- the pit fiend might last to the second round) range increment of the fighter with no actual defenses.
Dead in round one, due to the fact he can't actually surprise the fighter (who has a better perception and stealth check) and we watch as their first round of spell-likes do little to nothing?
Yeah you'll need better than that fighter cleared pit fiends at level 16.
Are you new?
EDIT: No I see you are not... how did you not see all the threads where pit fiends kept getting trounced by fighters using these exact sorts of tactics?
he can't actually surprise the fighter (who has a better perception and stealth check)
Pit Fiend (scrying from a few hundred miles away): "Aw. That's cute."
*Greater Teleports*
Not quite true.
Wizards had to earn the most xp...after level 11.
From 4-9, wizards leveled faster then any other class.
It's why you see things like fighter/magic-user 4/6, 4/7, 5/8, 6/9, and 7/10 on old PC sheets. Wizards leveled VERY fast in the midlevels, so they weren't weak long.
And due to the way xp worked then, a multiclassed f/m-u was never more then a level behind the straight wizard, and could actually be higher level then a straight classed fighter type.
Granted, at level 18, the fighter might be 20, 21. But he got 6 hit points and +2 to hit, and the wizard got meteor swarm at a time when meteor swarm could take out a demon lord.
wands in 1e were much closer to what staffs are today, just smaller. They often had unique abilities you couldn't duplicate with spells, and/or were more effective at certain spells. Wands of fire and lightning, for instance, counted 1's rolled as 2's when tossing fireballs and lightning bolts, respectively.
==Aelryinth
Can't say I remember that. If you had enough XP to be 4th level fight you wizard level would 3rd. At 5th level fighter you'd 4th level fighter. At 6th level fighter and 6 the level wizard. It's at 7th that this changes. They stayed relatively the same till 9th level.
Thieves had the best progression at all levels.
So basically within the first (oops second -- the pit fiend might last to the second round) range increment of the fighter with no actual defenses.
Dead in round one, due to the fact he can't actually surprise the fighter (who has a better perception and stealth check) and we watch as their first round of spell-likes do little to nothing?
Yeah you'll need better than that fighter cleared pit fiends at level 16.
Are you new?
EDIT: No I see you are not... how did you not see all the threads where pit fiends kept getting trounced by fighters using these exact sorts of tactics?
Assuming your Fighter is an archer, and somehow saw the Pit Fiend coming when he popped up invisible 280 feet away (that's a -28 penalty to Perception checks, vs the +40 bonus from Invisibility. GL m8) after scrying him, and won Initiative after the Pit Fiend got a Surprise round, sure.
Also what's your Fighter's defense against Maze again? Just curious.
And legitimately this is, like I said, one of the wimpier CR 20 encounters.
Low point buys are worse for any class that doesn't rely on one stat.
Low point buy is bad for all classes. I mean if you have 5 point buy all classes suffer. It makes it very hard to get casting stat a stat that enable casting higher level spells or meeting feat requirement.
The game is design for 15-25 point buy. Go less or more than that and it creates problems. Nothing you can't work around but you have to realize that the problems are there.
My players like high stats super hero style games. It requires me as the gm to adjust things. Magic gets out hand quickly if you aren't prepared for all the things players will pull. I actually find the best way to deal with it martial bad guys. Sure they die all the same but they can actually damage the party better than other casters can.
LLet me assure you as a GM with players: If you are running your monsters appropriately your players will have fun, and not be useless.
Honestly I would love to sit at your table, because I have yet to see a table where a fighter is invalidated because of spell casting that actually plays monsters intelligently or within the rules as written.
Let me assure you as a GM who has GM'd multiple 1-20 campaigns with multiple play groups, my players have fun because they are challenged. I also highly suspect your table has never seen a single instance of Quickened Maze + Maze in combat.
All of which assume the Fighter is always aware of the Pit Fiend and gets to act first, as far as I can see, and most importantly half of those assume the Fighter has a caster buddy buffing his saves, attack, and keeping him well healed of HP damage and conditions.
Also you still never answered my question: What does your Fighter have to counter Maze?
The answer to that question is "Nothing", and the Pit Fiend is again one of the weakest "caster" encounters at high levels.
If he can end the Fighter with a snap of his fingers, no save, imagine what a real threat can do.
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Low point buys are worse for any class that doesn't rely on one stat.Low point buy is bad for all classes. I mean if you have 5 point buy all classes suffer. It makes it very hard to get casting stat a stat that enable casting higher level spells or meeting feat requirement.
The game is design for 15-25 point buy. Go less or more than that and it creates problems. Nothing you can't work around but you have to realize that the problems are there.
My players like high stats super hero style games. It requires me as the gm to adjust things. Magic gets out hand quickly if you aren't prepared for all the things players will pull. I actually find the best way to deal with it martial bad guys. Sure they die all the same but they can actually damage the party better than other casters can.
Low point buy literally by definition hurts MAD classes more then SAD classes. Even with a 5 Point buy I can make a passable Wizard, with decent INT just by Dumping STR and CHA. Sure it won't be *as* good as a higher point buy Wizard, but it'll be a hell of a lot better then a Fighter who is going to be stuck with either useless stats, negative ssaves and/or one skill point per level.
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So now its the buff they can cast. I am not familiar with Quick study(its not in the PDR as far as the search could find and its not in any book I have seen) But under normal circumstances if you caster has to prepare all utility spells then they are weak/useless in combat and as for spontaneous casting they suffer from they have a much smaller pool of spells to cast anyway so most focus on what their main role is and not a jack of all trades. But I would say its still falls to the GM to find a way to balance that ex: if your party has a buffing maniac counter with the monsters doing the same.
As for the "resting" if you walk out/teleport what's to stop the whole place from "resetting"/hunting the party down at that point. To me that's like some of the Worst GMing to allow that type of play.
its one thing to take it as easy mode to help a new player type party for a GM. But to say Things are too strong because the GM is using Kids gloves on a more veteran party in the first place when the powers they are using are meant to be used in a more challenging setting ......... the only thing I can say to that is you cant complain about it being to easy on easy mode play.
As a GM who actually runs monsters intelligently, let me assure you that if a GM is playing their monsters appropriately, at level 13 the gap between classes with no casting and those with full casting becomes insurmountable. Properly played, high level enemies have tons of SLAs that can completely invalidate an opposing martial. The only way a Fighter can compete at these levels is to invest heavily in UMD and scrolls and do their damnedest to fake being a full caster.
If this does not happen the problem is that the GM is going easy on the party and playing monsters poorly.
Let me assure you as a GM with players: If you are running your monsters appropriately your players will have fun, and not be useless.
Honestly I would love to sit at your table, because I have yet...
I think he means that if you run the NPC's as intelligently as possible. As an example you maze out the fighter types since that spell has no save, and their intelligence is not really all that high for most people playing them. That leaves you to deal with the party casters who, depending on how well they optimize, may be dead by the time the fighter types get out of the maze. If you maze the caster he may be able to just plane shift out of the maze.
Also if the fighters are mazed and the casters are losing they can more likely escape via some teleportation effect, assuming the enemy has not thought of this in advance and blocked it. Then you have your fighters vs some casters, which basically translates into dead fighter types in most situations.
Just so you know this is not me theorycrafting I used a similar tactic before. Now since it was not fun for those guys swinging weapons I decided to stop doing so.
There are other ways to shut down most fighter types also. If they are super-optimized some things can be covered but in most games high optimization is not going to be the norm.
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If all it takes to shut down a L16+ adventuring party is an enemy who's flying and invisible, those guys need to turn in their adventurer cards.
(Tangent: Huh. I guess it'd be up for debate as to whether a dude whose flapping his wings to hold a position counts as "holding still" for invisibility. I'd say no, he's flapping giant-ass wings (though he'd still have a decent stealth check anyways, because pit fiends have that as a skill), but this is apparently a martial v. caster debate, so I assume the norm will be ruling whichever way is better for the caster. Since that's how those debates seem to work.)
(Also, be sure to read up on how scrying works before assuming it's both automatically successful and not noticed. Scrying, when it works, is accompanied by a relatively easily spotted magical sensor.)
My own experience is that a well run, significant, encounter should leave the martials and the casters feeling like they needed each other.
Though I'm more used to groups that play as SWAT teams rather than as every man for himself.
An encounter that can be trivialized by any single PC is a trivial encounter to begin with.
Though running encounters that look scary but are actually trivial can occasionally be amusing.
"Wait, that's it? We won?"
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{. . .}
My own experience is that a well run, significant, encounter should leave the martials and the casters feeling like they needed each other.
+1 on this. I can't Favorite this enough.
Though I'm more used to groups that play as SWAT teams rather than as every man for himself.
{. . .}
Do you run (some of) your opponents this way as well? Because it sounds like your groups could actually handle this.
By the way, @{Somebody_Who_Posted_Above}, the house rules the 1st Edition games were in that let casters recharge with the equivalent of a Short Rest were not intentional house rules; they were because of the horrible organization of the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide making everybody miss the actual rule about how often you can recharge (which is NOT in the same place as what you need to do to recharge) for long enough that we had to make a house rule just to have a rule at all. I found the relevant text after it was too late to retcon everything; I could find it in a few minutes NOW because I know approximately where it is, but that wasn't the case when we were starting, and this apparently tripped up an awful lot of DMs; however, it also repeatedly saved our bacon (a common occurrence was Clerics doing "Pray . . . put 'em on, pray . . . put 'em on, pray . . . put 'em on . . .").
Maze spell...range 25 + 5/levels. CL 20 = range 75 feet.
To cast this spell, the pit fiend has to be within charge range of the fighter. THat's not good. He's also certainly within ranged attack range. The pit fiend got rid of the fighter, and now the other three are going to waste it.
If you are dimensionally locked, you are immune to this spell, since you can't be banished extradimensionally, nor teleported, etc.
If the fighter has invested in Intelligence with anything, he should be out of the spell within an average of 3-5 rounds. Note even Int based wizards are likely to be tied up for 1-2 rounds.
The fighter can completely foil this spell by staying back and shooting the bloody fiend.
==Aelryinth
Rynjin i don't think you under stand what "CR" means. For your Pit Fiend is CR 20. That mean it is designed for a party of 4-5 players (and thats supost to be a balanced party ie. a melee tank/damage dealer , a support, a ranged, and a healer)to fight and it to be a moderately difficult fight. But with what you "example" is saying everyone All the time should be able to solo everything that their level is equal to CR wise reguardless of class.
...Yes. APL=CR is supposed to be easy, by definition.
If your first level Fighter can't solo a Wolf in combat, he needs to turn in his Fighter card. Are you seriously suggesting a single Wolf should be a difficult encounter for the whole party?
Likewise if your 20th level Fighter can't solo a CR 20 challenge, he's not viable.
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^Probably depends upon which CR 20 challenge. One size does not fit all.
Likewise if your 20th level Fighter can't solo a CR 20 challenge, he's not viable.
He's viable if he's capable of fulfilling a team role. If a round of combat goes:
Pit Fiend casts Maze on level 17 FighterLevel 17 Cleric casts a spell that brings back the Fighter
Fighter removes half the Pit Fiend's hit points
etc
...then the Fighter is making a valid contribution.
Game balance at the levels when Wish comes into play is a pretty nebulous concept in the first place.
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Not quite true.
Wizards had to earn the most xp...after level 11.
From 4-9, wizards leveled faster then any other class.
It's why you see things like fighter/magic-user 4/6, 4/7, 5/8, 6/9, and 7/10 on old PC sheets. Wizards leveled VERY fast in the midlevels, so they weren't weak long.
And due to the way xp worked then, a multiclassed f/m-u was never more then a level behind the straight wizard, and could actually be higher level then a straight classed fighter type.
Granted, at level 18, the fighter might be 20, 21. But he got 6 hit points and +2 to hit, and the wizard got meteor swarm at a time when meteor swarm could take out a demon lord.
wands in 1e were much closer to what staffs are today, just smaller. They often had unique abilities you couldn't duplicate with spells, and/or were more effective at certain spells. Wands of fire and lightning, for instance, counted 1's rolled as 2's when tossing fireballs and lightning bolts, respectively.
==Aelryinth
Can't say I remember that. If you had enough XP to be 4th level fight you wizard level would 3rd. At 5th level fighter you'd 4th level fighter. At 6th level fighter and 6 the level wizard. It's at 7th that this changes. They stayed relatively the same till 9th level.
Thieves had the best progression at all levels.
A lot of people gloss over it.
Do you have your books? The 1E PH is downloadable online.
In summary, fighter xp doubles at every level. So, 2k for 2nd, 4k for 3rd, 8k for 4th, 16k for 5th, 32k for 6th, 64k for 7th, 125k for 8th, 250k for 9th, and 250k for level afterwards.
Wizards: Wizards don't double in the middle levels, they just add.
2500 for 2nd, 5000 for 3rd, 10,000 for 4th, and 20,000 for 5th.
--At this point, you'll have a fighter/m-u 5/5 with 40k xp total split evenly.
40k for 6th. F/MU is now 6/6
60k for 7th. F/MU is now 6/7.
90k for 8th. F/MU is now 7/8.
135k for 9th. F/mu now 8/9
250k for 10th. F/mu now 9/10
375k for 11th. F/MU now 9/11.
750k for 12th. F/MU now 10/12.
Okay, not quite as bad as I remembered. Probably racial class limits affecting fighter levels!
--------
The quickest advancement in 1E is actually the Druid.
A Thief takes 160k to reach level 10. A Druid takes 125k! A druid hits 12th level at 300k, just after the fighter reaches 9. After that, they slow down a lot, but nobody does low levels as fast as the druid.
==Aelryinth
To be fair, that CR 1 wolf has reasonable odds of killing a L1 caster.
If you stuck a L1 wizard, arcanist, or sorcerer in a 10x10 room with that CR 1 wolf, who lived and who died would come down to the initiative roll.
I wouldn't declare any of those classes not viable at 1st level, though.
Fights that are deliberately stacked against the class you're trying to show is crap aren't terribly persuasive. =P
And honestly, most classes would be in trouble with "you're on your own against an already buffed pit fiend in an open field and you're not allowed to use utility magic items because those aren't class abilities." Even a paladin can lose if the deck is sufficiently stacked against her.
Maybe that was your point, I'm not sure anymore.
(Fighter v. Thalassic Behemoth would honestly be a more appropriate match up - brute force v. brute force. Of course, beating it unconscious and actually killing it are different beasts, there.)
@ Aelrynth - oh man, 1E and 2E druid progression! Don't forget that advancement past a point required DRUID THUNDERDOME!
To be fair, that CR 1 wolf has reasonable odds of killing a L1 caster.
If you stuck a L1 wizard, arcanist, or sorcerer in a 10x10 room with that CR 1 wolf, who lived and who died would come down to the initiative roll.
I wouldn't declare any of those classes not viable at 1st level, though.
Fights that are deliberately stacked against the class you're trying to show is crap aren't terribly persuasive. =P
And honestly, most classes would be in trouble with "you're on your own against an already buffed pit fiend in an open field and you're not allowed to use utility magic items because those aren't class abilities." Even a paladin can lose if the deck is sufficiently stacked against her.
Maybe that was your point, I'm not sure anymore.
(Fighter v. Thalassic Behemoth would honestly be a more appropriate match up - brute force v. brute force. Of course, beating it unconscious and actually killing it are different beasts, there.)
@ Aelrynth - oh man, 1E and 2E druid progression! Don't forget that advancement past a point required DRUID THUNDERDOME!
I'm not seeing how it's "deliberately stacked".
This is essentially a melee based creature with some potent magic tricks, and even it has ways to take the Fighter out of the fight with no issue.
How does he fare against an actual caster creature, like the Rakshaa Maharaja?
As-written it has a bad spell selection, but as it says "Each maharaja is unique". And it goes on two separate Initiatives as well. Since it has Quicken Spell, that's a potential of 4 spells per round, even if its DCs are low because for some reason it was decided that an 18th level Sorcerer needed Dodge, Mobility, Hover (IT HAS +31 FLY AND IS MEDIUM. THIS FEAT HAS LITERALLY NO BENEFIT), Improved Critical, and Combat Reflexes eating half its Feats.
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So i do think that the wolf is a bit toned down as compared to its previous incarnations but how would a LV 1 fight do against 3 CR 1/3 orcs. its the same CR as the wolf but there would be No way the fighter could win even if he were to go first.
You might want to simulate this out before you start making statements like that.
A common orc has a single attack at +1, 5 hit points, and an armor class of 13. A not-particularly-optimized first-level fighter has two attacks at +3/+2, 16 hit points, and an armor class of 17. And better initiative if it comes to that.
Each orc has a 25% chance of hitting per round, which equates to roughly 58% of getting hit at all for Valeros. Barring criticals, it will take two hits to kill Valeros. In the other direction, Valeros will average 1.05 hits per round and can easily kill an orc in a single hit.
I don't think it would be unreasonable for the fighter to gain initiative and kill one orc at the end of the charge, be missed by both of the survivors, and then kill a second orc at the end of the second round. At this point a smart orc in survival mode would run away. While that scenario's not guaranteed, I think it's certainly plausible enough to make "No way the fighter could win" wrong.
Even if the (clearly overmatched) single orc doesn't win, he's still at a huge disadvantage against Valeros. A CR 1 fighter against three CR 1/3 orcs isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, and it's not -- a set of poor die rolls could easily kill Valeros. But it doesn't take exceptionally good die rolls to kill all 3 orcs.
So i do think that the wolf is a bit toned down as compared to its previous incarnations but how would a LV 1 fight do against 3 CR 1/3 orcs. its the same CR as the wolf but there would be No way the fighter could win even if he were to go first. As for the wolf i do see that is is more of a early game Mage hunter than a fighter type monster like the orcs.
The Fighter loses (...maybe) against 3 Orcs because of action economy, not enemy strength. Though Orcs are a buff CR 1/3, sames as Pit Fiends are a wimpy CR 20.
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So i do think that the wolf is a bit toned down as compared to its previous incarnations but how would a LV 1 fight do against 3 CR 1/3 orcs. its the same CR as the wolf but there would be No way the fighter could win even if he were to go first. As for the wolf i do see that is is more of a early game Mage hunter than a fighter type monster like the orcs.
Good strength, decent dex, a reach weapon and combat reflexes. Orcs are dumb and brash enough to charge onto a readied spear. Monster stats at 1st level are low enough that a sword-and-board fighter is very difficult to hit, especially if it's one of the players who starts with the Dodge feat and dreams about 25+ AC by level 3.
Honestly, even as a guy who subscribes to Caster Hype Monthly, I still like where the game is right now. Fighter types have the raw numbers to be huge threats in the early levels, and work as fantastic "multipliers" for wizard spells. Every optimizer and their pet goldfish will tell you Haste is the bee's knees' and polymorphing the barbarian into something with wings solves a lot of the class's weaknesses. Improved Invisibility on the rogue is another fun example.
In the end, there are some lobsided balance issues, but I think the topic of Martial/Caster synergy gets downplayed too much.
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The orc has a pretty good chance against most level 1 characters in a one on one close range encounter - they have a powerful enough attack to have a good chance of taking you out in a single blow, and the Ferocity ability gives them an effective HP much higher than the average level 1 PC.
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To be fair, that CR 1 wolf has reasonable odds of killing a L1 caster.
If you stuck a L1 wizard, arcanist, or sorcerer in a 10x10 room with that CR 1 wolf, who lived and who died would come down to the initiative roll.
I wouldn't declare any of those classes not viable at 1st level, though.
Fights that are deliberately stacked against the class you're trying to show is crap aren't terribly persuasive. =P
And honestly, most classes would be in trouble with "you're on your own against an already buffed pit fiend in an open field and you're not allowed to use utility magic items because those aren't class abilities." Even a paladin can lose if the deck is sufficiently stacked against her.
Maybe that was your point, I'm not sure anymore.
(Fighter v. Thalassic Behemoth would honestly be a more appropriate match up - brute force v. brute force. Of course, beating it unconscious and actually killing it are different beasts, there.)
@ Aelrynth - oh man, 1E and 2E druid progression! Don't forget that advancement past a point required DRUID THUNDERDOME!
I'm not seeing how it's "deliberately stacked".
This is essentially a melee based creature with some potent magic tricks, and even it has ways to take the Fighter out of the fight with no issue.
How does he fare against an actual caster creature, like the Rakshaa Maharaja?
As-written it has a bad spell selection, but as it says "Each maharaja is unique". And it goes on two separate Initiatives as well. Since it has Quicken Spell, that's a potential of 4 spells per round, even if its DCs are low because for some reason it was decided that an 18th level Sorcerer needed Dodge, Mobility, Hover (IT HAS +31 FLY AND IS MEDIUM. THIS FEAT HAS LITERALLY NO BENEFIT), Improved Critical, and Combat Reflexes eating half its Feats.
If his GM routinely throws the fighter by himself against casters, I'd expect him to run with something like a +5 seeking cyclonic distance bow (i.e., beats DR, concealment, and windwall-ish spells), a selection of bane arrows in a bountiful quiver for his GM's favorite enemy races, eyes of the dragon (grants 60 ft blindsense, possibly giving you the square you need for the seeking bow), and either a ring of spell turning or a ring of delayed doom. (Tempting to do both, but probably need to use a ring of protection and the human favored class bonus for shoring up CMD against disarm and sunder, for a base CMD of 55 + stats vs. those methods of getting rid of the precious, precious bow. Freedom of Movement would be my normal choice of the ring, but that can be done by other means.)
He should also probably carry a Maul of the Titans for smashing force cages - or for going through a wall and ransacking elsewhere if the opponent hides in a prismatic sphere.
And yeah, everything I'm mentioning deals with magic item solutions. Being a fighter or rogue is like being Batman in a Justice League adventure - it's all about your toys and your tactics.
Honestly, a ranger would probably be just as vexed, and would probably wind up doing the same things as the fighter. The paladin is close to indestructible, but also may not have the right tools to force a final fight either and so be stuck with (very, very slowly) getting chipped to death.
I assume you consider ranger and paladin to be valid classes at 20 even though they wouldn't necessarily pass your current metric. =P
(On the other side, a caster who's trying this alone could probably force a final fight with the maharaja - and then get ripped in half because the thing's perfectly competent in melee. (I'd give the bastard the dimensional dervish line, myself.) Which again would result in failing the current metric, because the 20th level character lost against the CR 20 enemy. =P)
A barbarian, between superstitious, witchhunter, spell sunder, pounce, and all the other things barbarians get (seriously, anyone who claims Paizo hates martials has never looked at the barbarian) probably has the best odds of actually handing a maharaja solo.
That maharaja's potentially one of the nastier CR 20 opponents. Honestly, I wish more evil outsiders were packing "spell as a L__ caster" like the high CR good outsiders usually do.
A CR 20 creature should have about a 50/50 shot of outright killing an equal level PC who's trying to solo it, with that percent changing based on the PC and how good the player running that PC is.
Another way of looking at it - an ECL+4 encounter is a fight that's supposed to be an even match for a 4 person party (as the 4 person party itself would be an ECL+4 encounter). It takes four CR 20 critters to actually be an even match for a party of four L20 PCs.
So a CR=level should be about an even match for a solo PC of that level, with circumstantial variation. Some CR 20s are better than others.
(Personally, I'd use the Star Spawn as a weak CR 20 - outside of 1/day Gate and Overwhelming Mind (which is also 1/day), its base powers are crap. On the other hand, look at the Magicbane Bandersnatch for a really mean "if you don't have Spellbane you're screwed" CR 20.)
Oh! To answer your question as to why the hell the maharaja has Hover - looks like that's a holdover from the Escape from Old Korvosa statblock. Fly skill wasn't a thing in 3.5, so you needed either perfect maneuverability or the Hover feat to actually be able to stay airborne in one spot (only being (good) meant you were 5 ft stepping every round, IIRC - not very dignified).
I was more picking on the Fighter because it's an easy example, but the overarching point was that ANY martial needs magical support to overcome a caster enemy, which is just...disappointing.
The Ranger and Paladin are much, much better classes than the Fighter, but even they have problems because of the overwhelming superiority magic provides.
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I was more picking on the Fighter because it's an easy example, but the overarching point was that ANY martial needs magical support to overcome a caster enemy, which is just...disappointing.
The Ranger and Paladin are much, much better classes than the Fighter, but even they have problems because of the overwhelming superiority magic provides.
Okay, fair enough.
For better and for worse, "Magic is awesome" is the system working as intended.
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Zhangar - Druids had to fight for levels 13, 14 and 15.
Monks had to fight for every level past 8th. How's that for Thunderdome?
==Aelryinth
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The Ranger and Paladin are much, much better classes than the Fighter, but even they have problems because of the overwhelming superiority magic provides.
Only against some kinds of magic opposition. A battle might easily go:
Evil wizard wins initiative and casts deadly spell against Paladin. Paladin passes saving throw and negates it.
Paladin smites evil wizard...
Sure, if the magical opponent has Maze and Wish it's a bit one-sided, but a level 12 Paladin has a decent chance against a Lich.
And the game was never meant to be about a group of heroes with no magic going up against powerful magical enemies. Martials are supposed to provide a valuable contribution to a team effort, not win on their own.
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If the full caster can win the fight by himself, the GM needs to run better (faster/stronger/harder?) fights =P
(Though the GM will occasionally need to look at a spell, confirm that Complete (and Probably Unintended) Absurdity No. ____ can be performed through it, and announce "Oh Hell No. Not in my game.")
(Or, "how about you not do that at this moment. and I'll think about the ramifications and get back with you.")
I think Nicos was pointing towards the fact that caster contributions in combat are more potent for longer(number of levels) IN ADDITION to being the better class out of combat.
I think that kinda out of whack and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here.
OK, so that fighter is not and average fighter as far as the "Standard" fighter goes his stats are more of The "epic" build with max gold rather than the "Standard...So i do think that the wolf is a bit toned down as compared to its previous incarnations but how would a LV 1 fight do against 3 CR 1/3 orcs. its the same CR as the wolf but there would be No way the fighter could win even if he were to go first.
You might want to simulate this out before you start making statements like that.
A common orc has a single attack at +1, 5 hit points, and an armor class of 13. A not-particularly-optimized first-level fighter has two attacks at +3/+2, 16 hit points, and an armor class of 17. And better initiative if it comes to that.
Each orc has a 25% chance of hitting per round, which equates to roughly 58% of getting hit at all for Valeros. Barring criticals, it will take two hits to kill Valeros. In the other direction, Valeros will average 1.05 hits per round and can easily kill an orc in a single hit.
I don't think it would be unreasonable for the fighter to gain initiative and kill one orc at the end of the charge, be missed by both of the survivors, and then kill a second orc at the end of the second round. At this point a smart orc in survival mode would run away. While that scenario's not guaranteed, I think it's certainly plausible enough to make "No way the fighter could win" wrong.
Even if the (clearly overmatched) single orc doesn't win, he's still at a huge disadvantage against Valeros. A CR 1 fighter against three CR 1/3 orcs isn't supposed to be a cakewalk, and it's not -- a set of poor die rolls could easily kill Valeros. But it doesn't take exceptionally good die rolls to kill all 3 orcs.
Holy molly, did you just say that Valeros is the epic fighter build?
I think I just slipped a disk when I hit the floor....
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OK, so that fighter is not and average fighter as far as the "Standard" fighter goes his stats are more of The "epic" build with max gold rather than the "Standard Fantasy" point build and average starting gold would allow like in a PFS type setting. Which is what it was we were talking about but if your going to start saying "Well if my LV 1 Fighter Has All 18s" the of course he is going to win against things that he would normally not be able to win against.You, uh, realize that Valeros is a legal PFS character, right?
Valeros is not only that, he is the Iconic Fighter, made specifically by the developers to be more about flavor than mechanics.
Well, the original post claimed, "In the other direction, Valeros will average 1.05 hits per round and can easily kill an orc in a single hit."
Since it takes 18 damage to kill one of those orcs (using the Ferocity rules) he would have to be epically optimized for that to be the case.
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I think he forgot to take into account Ferocity essentially tripling their HP. That's why Orcs are so nasty (and the Falchions don't hurt either...).
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They hurt quite a lot.
Touche.