Power attack, improved crit, and furious focus really drive the bus. The Step Up feat is really good, the rest of the chain depends upon if you feel you have extra feats.
1)Power Attack (if human grab step up, then following step at 5 and step up and strike at 7)
3)Furious Focus,
5) Step Up
7)??? Weapon Focus, Toughness, Extra Lay on Hands, Crafting Feat....
9) Improved Crit
11) Critical Focus (or Dazing Assault)
13) Staggering Critical
15) Stunning Assault
Vital Strike starts getting worthwhile with two-handed weapons, and Weapon Focus with your chosen weapon is always worthwhile.
I would add if you are going Improved Critical then it's worth using a weapon with a good threat range - an elven curve-blade or falchion. What you lose in the base damage over a greatsword you will make up and more in critical hits.
But I will support cryptic above, Power Attack and Furious Focus are pretty much must-haves.
Yep! That build is optimized for damage out put.
It depends what you want to optimize for though. You only have the feats to aim at one path, so choose it carefully. If you are going for a weapon divine bond, you have some nice possibilities opening up - feats are limited, so Keen can make up for no Improved Critical.
2. The group consists of a Wizard, a Rogue/Pathfinder Delver, and a Cleric of Cayden Cailean who only uses rapiers.
3. For stats, the DM rolled me a set of: 18, 13, 13, 13, 12, 18.
I'd be different, I'd go an Elf with these stats:
Str 18
Dex 13+2 = 15
Con 13-2 = 11
Int 13+2 = 15
Wis 12
Cha 18
I'd use an Elven Curveblade for 1d10 damage but a threat range 18-20/x2 makes up for the lesser damage.
Feat-wise, my choices would be:
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Furious Focus
5th: Combat Expertise (you have brains, against some foes you will want to use them)
7th: Weapon Focus
9th: Improved Critical (or if I'm using a Keen weapon, Critical focus)
11th: Critical Focus (or the various Critical feats you can gain)
My advices:
Either human or elf or half elf put your two 18s to STR and CHA, if you have a blank +2 (like humans or half elves do) put wherever you want (i would go with STR or CON with your stats).
Here is the order of feat i would take in case the character is an elf or half elf:
1st Power Attack
3rd Furious Focus
5th Weapon Focus (Elven Curved Blade)
7th Extra lay on hands
9th Improved Critical (Elven Curved Blade)
11th Critical Focus
13th Staggering Critical
15th Blinding Critical
17th Stunning Critical
In the case you play a human your weapon of choice would be the falchion.
If you're going Kingmaker, I would suggest away from buying "Weapon Focus" or other "lock in your weapon" choices. Because for Kingmaker, you're going to want to choose "mount" as your option for Divine Bond, and then you're going to want to use a lance so that you can deal 2x damage on a charge. Do not overlook this tactic! In most campaigns it doesn't work, but Kingmaker is unique is that you get to fight a lot of your battles from horseback: and you'll be reaping at 2x damage from charge far more often than the increased threat range from "Improved Critical" would pay off.
To that end, I would recommend "Mounted Combat", which is good in its own right, followed by the devistating "Ride By Attack." Enemies won't be able to attack you, and you'll get to deal your 2x damage every round.
Again, I wouldn't suggest this for a generic campaign, but for Kingmaker, you have to take advantage of the mounted angle.
If you're going Kingmaker, I would suggest away from buying "Weapon Focus" or other "lock in your weapon" choices. Because for Kingmaker, you're going to want to choose "mount" as your option for Divine Bond, and then you're going to want to use a lance so that you can deal 2x damage on a charge. Do not overlook this tactic! In most campaigns it doesn't work, but Kingmaker is unique is that you get to fight a lot of your battles from horseback: and you'll be reaping at 2x damage from charge far more often than the increased threat range from "Improved Critical" would pay off.
To that end, I would recommend "Mounted Combat", which is good in its own right, followed by the devistating "Ride By Attack." Enemies won't be able to attack you, and you'll get to deal your 2x damage every round.
Again, I wouldn't suggest this for a generic campaign, but for Kingmaker, you have to take advantage of the mounted angle.
Yes i know but the OP said weapon bond.
Also although you are right about Kingmaker, but as a player in Kingmaker i 've got say that every boss fight until now wasn't horse friendly.
There have been many good suggestions already. I'd just like to add some ideas to that:
- Constitution: I have had suprisingly great success in boosting constitution instead of the "typical" fighting abilities like strength and dexterity. You simply learn to shrug off so much damage (due to high HP at higher levels) that you are a much harder opponent. To me, this is worth more than putting the high stats into strength or dexterity.
- Stats: Are those stats already including racial adjustments? I am not sure from the above post.
- Two-weapon-fighting: Just because you are using 2h, it does not mean you cannot do two-weapon fighting. If you can afford the dex and feats, take improved unarmed strike and two weapon fighting. Or armor spikes if you don't feel like investing into the improved unarmed strike feat. However, I find the image of a paladin smiting an evil outsider with his bare hands, punching through all his DR kind of impressive ;-)
- Maneuvers: I find them to be very cool. Being able to trip, sunder etc. gives you a lot more options in battle than just doing damage.
- Selective channeling: A great help in any battle.
- APG Favored class bonuses: They can be pretty neat. For example, the energy resistance one can really pay off in the long run. Otherwise you could put it in HP, see my constitution note above.
- Archery: Did you consider using a bow? It's a real option in pathfinder now, and smiting with it is simply nasty.
Paladins are cool :-)
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Here is the order of feat i would take in case the character is an elf or half elf:
1st Power Attack
3rd Furious Focus
5th Weapon Focus (Elven Curved Blade)
7th Extra lay on hands
9th Improved Critical (Elven Curved Blade)
11th Critical Focus
13th Staggering Critical
15th Blinding Critical
17th Stunning CriticalIn the case you play a human your weapon of choice would be the falchion.
Half-elves do not receive elven weapon proficiencies, so no Curve Blades for them unless EWP (or they gamble with Heirloom traits).
ELOH at 7th is a curious choice since, by that level, he should own at least +2 charisma gear (granting him a 20, for 8-going-on-9 uses a day already as a 7th level paladin).
Improved and Greater Overrun are good in a strong paladin (especially if he plans on being routinely Enlarged) -- and you can get them out of the way by BAB6. Now you can blitz past the mooks to the boss, swatting one down on the way, and leave the boss in your threatened zone. Combine with Step Up for a nasty surprise when he tries to 5' back and unload a big spell.
I also wouldn't blow all of my end-career feats on maximizing crit-effects because there will a steadily increasing preponderance of opponents immune to crits. As a paladin you'll already be doing preposterous amounts of damage versus evil -- but the non-evil opponents you'll have the toughest time with are usually immune to crits (constructs, oozes, etc).
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Half-elves do not receive elven weapon proficiencies, so no Curve Blades for them unless EWP (or they gamble with Heirloom traits).
The Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait can cover this option, if such things are allowed.
I also feel like I should point out that you've actually got a pretty decent set of rolled stats for a gnome or halfling paladin - even with the Strength penalty you'll have a decent score, assuming you put one of those 18s in Strength, and if the other goes into Charisma, starting with Charisma 20 is nothing to sneeze at. A gnome paladin with a greatsword or greataxe would be a surprisingly solid option with those stats...
Half-elves do not receive elven weapon proficiencies, so no Curve Blades for them unless EWP (or they gamble with Heirloom traits).The Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait can cover this option, if such things are allowed.
This is what i used, it's in the APG.
Half-elves do not receive elven weapon proficiencies, so no Curve Blades for them unless EWP (or they gamble with Heirloom traits).ELOH at 7th is a curious choice since, by that level, he should own at least +2 charisma gear (granting him a 20, for 8-going-on-9 uses a day already as a 7th level paladin).
Improved and Greater Overrun are good in a strong paladin (especially if he plans on being routinely Enlarged) -- and you can get them out of the way by BAB6. Now you can blitz past the mooks to the boss, swatting one down on the way, and leave the boss in your threatened zone. Combine with Step Up for a nasty surprise when he tries to 5' back and unload a big spell.
I also wouldn't blow all of my end-career feats on maximizing crit-effects because there will a steadily increasing preponderance of opponents immune to crits. As a paladin you'll already be doing preposterous amounts of damage versus evil -- but the non-evil opponents you'll have the toughest time with are usually immune to crits (constructs, oozes, etc).
About the extra lay on hands, if i could i would have put this feat earlier but i couldn't find the space for it, also my thinking was that more lay on hands means more health (unless an attack can one hit ko me).
Also about the critical feats at the end of the carrer, i haven't any real experience (yet) with that high level martial characters so it's just theory on my part, if someone else has a better suggestion about those slots he can certainly help.|
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About the extra lay on hands, if i could i would have put this feat earlier but i couldn't find the space for it, also my thinking was that more lay on hands means more health (unless an attack can one hit ko me).As a full-on pally with uber CHA, you won't need it. (And if you do, then I suggest that it's time you ate a -1 to att and strapped on a +3 mithril buckler.)
Also about the critical feats at the end of the carrer, i haven't any real experience (yet) with that high level martial characters so it's just theory on my part, if someone else has a better suggestion about those slots he can certainly help.
By 10th-level in LG, it was to the point where I would rejoice if I actually ran into something that would bleed when I hit it.
"Yay! Demons!" <blort>
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you're going Kingmaker, I would suggest away from buying "Weapon Focus" or other "lock in your weapon" choices. Because for Kingmaker, you're going to want to choose "mount" as your option for Divine Bond, and then you're going to want to use a lance so that you can deal 2x damage on a charge. Do not overlook this tactic! In most campaigns it doesn't work, but Kingmaker is unique is that you get to fight a lot of your battles from horseback: and you'll be reaping at 2x damage from charge far more often than the increased threat range from "Improved Critical" would pay off.
To that end, I would recommend "Mounted Combat", which is good in its own right, followed by the devistating "Ride By Attack." Enemies won't be able to attack you, and you'll get to deal your 2x damage every round.
Again, I wouldn't suggest this for a generic campaign, but for Kingmaker, you have to take advantage of the mounted angle.
I just finished DMing KM. The amount of non-negligible fights you could get a horse to is actually pretty small.
No self respecting paladin would ever be a fithy halfling or gnome. Just pathetic. Halflings and Gnomes have no honor and only suited to be thieves or illusionist (again a thief)
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f you want to try something fun, I'd suggest a 2H weapon halfling or gnome paladin. With those stats you would have decent starting STR and awesome CHA.No self respecting paladin would ever be a fithy halfling or gnome. Just pathetic. Halflings and Gnomes have no honor and only suited to be thieves or illusionist (again a thief)
IC-roleplaying aside, halfling + paladin has one of the best synergies in the game ...although I recommend against the mounted path as it is suboptimal (many encounters deny the easy use of a mount; it's also easy to kill, and you have to spend actions getting on and off the thing).
Halfling paladin PFS (20pt-buy) stats:
STR- 12 or 11 (versa WIS)
DEX+ 16 or 17 (versa CHA)
CON: 14
INT: 12 (can be dumped, if you want a "brick" paladin)
WIS: 7 or 8 (versa STR)
CHA+ 16 or 17 (versa DEX)
Note that halfling paladins can dump the crap out of WIS and get away with it, since racial bonus off-sets, and all sins are forgiven with Divine Grace.
Full paladin take lower DEX (with 17 in CHA) and raises CHA exclusively; multiclass takes higher DEX and raises at 4th, than CHA at 8th/12th. I recommend one level of fighter early to tuck in more feats before 4th. The full or mostly-full paladin is more prone to "bricking" (dumping INT).
Multiclass build: pala1/rogu1/pala2/figh1/rogu2/pala3-8/figh2(12th); takes archery feats; Power Attack taken around 9th (you'll have a nice belt by then). Rogue talent will be Finesse. Character is able to switch between Manyshot archery (with bonded longbow) and Power Attacking holding a keen rapier two-handed. This build is very flexible and skill-oriented. Skills kept high will be Disable, UMD, Escape Artist, and Diplomacy. A DEX16 halfling in a mithril chainshirt with a MW buckler (zero armor-check) only needs 1 rank in Stealth to have a +11 and 1 rank in Acrobatics for a +9.
A gnome paladin, with dumped STR and no bump to DEX, is best off with no multiclassing and amplified CHA....
STR:11
DEX:13
CON+16
INT:12
WIS:10
CHA+17 ...all bumps
Party roll is "cork", or capacity to absorb incredible amounts of damage. Wear full-plate. Take traits that grant Escape Artist and UMD as class skills. Keep Perception, Ride, UMD and Escape Artist up. Buy a wand of Longstrider. Feats: EWP-Fauchard, Mounted Combat, Combat Reflexes, Channel Smite, Power Attack (as soon as you have a belt, or can cast Bull's Strength).
The "trap" of Ride-by Attack: the entire reason for Riding-by is to put yourself out of reach of a monster's full-attack. BUT -- if you can "take it", but your allies can't, then by Riding-by you permit the monster to throw itself upon your ally squishies and kill them, and probably are permitting it to do so without even receiving an AoO from you. ...training in fauchard permits lots of crit threats, and these offset the lack of damage from a Spirited Charge attack, especially because you'll get them in ground-combat.
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+1 Whats your feat progression for the halfling Mike. I'm seriously loving it and would love to run one in Society one day. Finally starting to post on the forums so hope I'm not stepping on some toes.
Burlap B. Brandyapple is currently a just-leveled-to-3rd PFS character with 12/17/14/12/07/16 stats. 1:pala1, 2:rogu1. His one feat is Point Blank Shot. At 3rd, I am either planning on 3:figh1 for Precise Shot and Rapid Shot simultaneously, -or- 3.pala2 for Divine Grace, LoH, and Rapid Shot as my 3rd-level character feat. I am leaning toward the later, as the LoH will save charges on my rapidly-depleting wand of CLW (which I am burning off quickly because the DM has a hard-on for killing my dog -- which I am going to sell because I've just picked up a wand of Longstrider).
Full build will be very close to this:
Level..: Ba Ft Rf Wi HP ....
00 base: -- 02 04 00 -- (halfling +1 saves) Traits: Indomitable Faith, Lucky Halfling
01 pala1 01 04 04 02 12 Smi1x1, Detect evil, 5 skills (favored class: paladin), Point Blank Shot
02 rogu1 01 04 06 02 19 Smi1x1, SA+1d6, 10 skills
03 pala2 02 08 09 06 28 Smi2x1, Rapid Shot, divine grace, lay on hands
04 figh1 03 10 09 06 36 Smi2x1, DEX>18, Precise Shot
05 rogu2 04 10 10 06 43 Smi2x1, evasion, Talent (Weapon Finesse), Deadly Aim
06 pala3 05 10 11 06 52 Smi3x1, aura courage, mercy1, divine health
07 pala4 06 11 11 07 61 Smi4x2, Channel, spells 1st, Manyshot
08 pala5 07 11 11 07 70 Smi5x2, CHA>17, divine bond +1
09 pala6 08 12 12 08 79 Smi6x2, mercy2, Power Attack
10 pala7 09 12 12 08 88 Smi7x3, spells 2nd
11 pala8 10 12 12 09 97 Smi8x3, aura of resolve, divine bond +2, FEAT
12 figh2 11 13 12 09 106 Smi8x3, CHA>18, FEAT
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I'm having second thoughts about Deadly Aim; when Rapid Shooting, I'll be -4 to attack if I also Deadly Aim.
I'll probably move Power Attack up (any belt or Bull's Strength will permit a 2>6 damage increase in melee) with a held-in-two-hands rapier). I'll have sufficient Acrobatics and AC/HP for dealing with AoOs. This works nicely because 5th is also the point as which I pick up Weapon Finesse:
Level..: Ba Ft Rf Wi HP ....
00 base: -- 02 04 00 -- (halfling +1 saves) Traits: Indomitable Faith, Lucky Halfling
01 pala1 01 04 04 02 12 Smi1x1, Detect evil, 5 skills (favored class: paladin), Point Blank Shot
02 rogu1 01 04 06 02 19 Smi1x1, SA+1d6, 10 skills
03 pala2 02 08 09 06 28 Smi2x1, Rapid Shot, divine grace, lay on hands
04 figh1 03 10 09 06 36 Smi2x1, DEX>18, Precise Shot
05 rogu2 04 10 10 06 43 Smi2x1, evasion, Talent (Weapon Finesse), Power Attack
06 pala3 05 10 11 06 52 Smi3x1, aura courage, mercy1, divine health
07 pala4 06 11 11 07 61 Smi4x2, Channel, spells 1st, Manyshot
08 pala5 07 11 11 07 70 Smi5x2, CHA>17, divine bond +1
09 pala6 08 12 12 08 79 Smi6x2, mercy2, Improved Critical
10 pala7 09 12 12 08 88 Smi7x3, spells 2nd
11 pala8 10 12 12 09 97 Smi8x3, aura of resolve, divine bond +2, FEAT
12 figh2 11 13 12 09 106 Smi8x3, CHA>18, FEAT
Power attack, improved crit, and furious focus really drive the bus. The Step Up feat is really good, the rest of the chain depends upon if you feel you have extra feats.
1)Power Attack (if human grab step up, then following step at 5 and step up and strike at 7)
3)Furious Focus,
5) Step Up
7)??? Weapon Focus, Toughness, Extra Lay on Hands, Crafting Feat....
9) Improved Crit
11) Critical Focus (or Dazing Assault)
13) Staggering Critical
15) Stunning Assault
If you have access to the APG feats, I believe the dazing/stunning assault feats win out over the improved crit and friends for a 2H weapon wielder. They allow you to get similiar effects, but usually more often, and the relatively high to hit of 2H builds makes these quite viable. With such a build, you would probably get more mileage out of a keen greatsword than a falchion with improved crit line. I haven't tested this yet, but if I'm wrong I'd be surprised. Critical focus is stronger for TWF and TWF sword and board for sure, but for a 2 hand build I'd go assault over critical focus all the way.
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I'm having second thoughts about Deadly Aim; when Rapid Shooting, I'll be -4 to attack if I also Deadly Aim.
I'll probably move Power Attack up (any belt or Bull's Strength will permit a 2>6 damage increase in melee) with a held-in-two-hands rapier). I'll have sufficient Acrobatics and AC/HP for dealing with AoOs. This works nicely because 5th is also the point as which I pick up Weapon Finesse:
Level..: Ba Ft Rf Wi HP ....
00 base: -- 02 04 00 -- (halfling +1 saves) Traits: Indomitable Faith, Lucky Halfling
01 pala1 01 04 04 02 12 Smi1x1, Detect evil, 5 skills (favored class: paladin), Point Blank Shot
02 rogu1 01 04 06 02 19 Smi1x1, SA+1d6, 10 skills
03 pala2 02 08 09 06 28 Smi2x1, Rapid Shot, divine grace, lay on hands
04 figh1 03 10 09 06 36 Smi2x1, DEX>18, Precise Shot
05 rogu2 04 10 10 06 43 Smi2x1, evasion, Talent (Weapon Finesse), Power Attack
06 pala3 05 10 11 06 52 Smi3x1, aura courage, mercy1, divine health
07 pala4 06 11 11 07 61 Smi4x2, Channel, spells 1st, Manyshot
08 pala5 07 11 11 07 70 Smi5x2, CHA>17, divine bond +1
09 pala6 08 12 12 08 79 Smi6x2, mercy2, Improved Critical
10 pala7 09 12 12 08 88 Smi7x3, spells 2nd
11 pala8 10 12 12 09 97 Smi8x3, aura of resolve, divine bond +2, FEAT
12 figh2 11 13 12 09 106 Smi8x3, CHA>18, FEAT
I see your point for wanting to drop deadly aim, but that extra damage is just too good to let go. By level five that -4 from DA and Rapid is compensated from your BAB, leaving a +3 from your Dex but also an additional +3 from Smite if you're using it against said enemy. Also by that level you should have Masterwork or +1 Composite giving you anywhere from a +4 to +7 to hit which isn't too bad.
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My God you people are pathetic with a halfling archer build? Can you say absolutely rooting for min/max?
First of all, Paladins are knights and beings of great honor. Ranged combat was always considered the cowardly and lesser mans means of combat throughout history. I cannot imagine a being of honor fighting at a distance to avoid getting himself hurt. That is just pathetic.
A real warrior strikes steel with his opponent and proves his skill...not shooting the opponent to death at a range where he cannot fight back.
Ever heard of the Paladin code? Accepting surrender? Not surprise attacking or otherwise cowardly attacking an opponent? Guess what? By making a paladin a ranged attack build, you are doing NOTHING of the paladin code.
So what you are saying is that you care NOTHING of roleplaying and clearly just want to min max to get the smite evil effects at range so that the BBG cant tear a hole in your candy ass?
And a Halfling to boot? Wow. The most WEAKEST and COWARDLY race there is and you wish to stain the honor of the Paladin class by association.
Great going guys.
My God you people are pathetic with a halfling archer build? Can you say absolutely rooting for min/max?
First of all, Paladins are knights and beings of great honor. Ranged combat was always considered the cowardly and lesser mans means of combat throughout history. I cannot imagine a being of honor fighting at a distance to avoid getting himself hurt. That is just pathetic.
A real warrior strikes steel with his opponent and proves his skill...not shooting the opponent to death at a range where he cannot fight back.
Ever heard of the Paladin code? Accepting surrender? Not surprise attacking or otherwise cowardly attacking an opponent? Guess what? By making a paladin a ranged attack build, you are doing NOTHING of the paladin code.
So what you are saying is that you care NOTHING of roleplaying and clearly just want to min max to get the smite evil effects at range so that the BBG cant tear a hole in your candy ass?
And a Halfling to boot? Wow. The most WEAKEST and COWARDLY race there is and you wish to stain the honor of the Paladin class by association.
Great going guys.
And you just pigeonholed the entire class into one genre. Suppose someone wanted a David, you know, from David and Goliath? Of course he couldn't do that. If that isn't a classic critical hit with a smite evil, I don't know what is.
My God you people are pathetic with a halfling archer build? Can you say absolutely rooting for min/max?
First of all, Paladins are knights and beings of great honor. Ranged combat was always considered the cowardly and lesser mans means of combat throughout history. I cannot imagine a being of honor fighting at a distance to avoid getting himself hurt. That is just pathetic.
A real warrior strikes steel with his opponent and proves his skill...not shooting the opponent to death at a range where he cannot fight back.
Ever heard of the Paladin code? Accepting surrender? Not surprise attacking or otherwise cowardly attacking an opponent? Guess what? By making a paladin a ranged attack build, you are doing NOTHING of the paladin code.
So what you are saying is that you care NOTHING of roleplaying and clearly just want to min max to get the smite evil effects at range so that the BBG cant tear a hole in your candy ass?
And a Halfling to boot? Wow. The most WEAKEST and COWARDLY race there is and you wish to stain the honor of the Paladin class by association.
Great going guys.
And you just pigeonholed the entire class into one genre. Suppose someone wanted a David, you know, from David and Goliath? Of course he couldn't do that. If that isn't a classic critical hit with a smite evil, I don't know what is.
Dude, you got Biblical...
I'm not seeing where David is a Paladin; though I could see where he had a Divine Favor or some such.
While I understand what you're in regards to Taasen's post, I kinda agree with him. I just don't see a Paly going the ranged route. They're definitely melee-types. I do draw the line at the Halfling remark however. I would be okay with a Shetland-driving, armor wearing, short sword wielding, Halfling Paly of Doom and Reckoning.
And you just pigeonholed the entire class into one genre. Suppose someone wanted a David, you know, from David and Goliath? Of course he couldn't do that. If that isn't a classic critical hit with a smite evil, I don't know what is.
David was a weakling. Goliath was the warrior. Sure it may have been Good vs Evil but clearly David took the easy way out. Im down with it happening...all Good over Evil thing but lets call a spade a spade. Im sure ole Dave was pissing down his leg when he saw Goliath coming.
Fact is, Range and Paladins just dont mix. Unless of course, you want to min max.
My God you people are pathetic with a halfling archer build? Can you say absolutely rooting for min/max?
First of all, Paladins are knights and beings of great honor. Ranged combat was always considered the cowardly and lesser mans means of combat throughout history. I cannot imagine a being of honor fighting at a distance to avoid getting himself hurt. That is just pathetic.
A real warrior strikes steel with his opponent and proves his skill...not shooting the opponent to death at a range where he cannot fight back.
Ever heard of the Paladin code? Accepting surrender? Not surprise attacking or otherwise cowardly attacking an opponent? Guess what? By making a paladin a ranged attack build, you are doing NOTHING of the paladin code.
So what you are saying is that you care NOTHING of roleplaying and clearly just want to min max to get the smite evil effects at range so that the BBG cant tear a hole in your candy ass?
And a Halfling to boot? Wow. The most WEAKEST and COWARDLY race there is and you wish to stain the honor of the Paladin class by association.
Great going guys.
Paladins are holy warriors of the gods. I can understand how you would see Richard the Lionheart and Roland, and think that is all they are, but consider Khalid Ibn al-Walid, the Drawn Sword of God. Just as much, if not more a holy warrior than the others, and extremely proficient in spear, lance, bow and sword alike.
The Paladins choice of weapon has nothing to do with their Code, I submit that Paladins are more than the Western ideal of warfare.
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Fact is, Range and Paladins just dont mix. Unless of course, you want to min max.
Hm, I see it a bit differently. Yes, a classic image is that of the warrior with sword and shield. But that's just one of many IMO. If I look at other cultures, such as Japan, using bows was perfectly fine for monks and priests there.
I also don't see it as min-maxing. If you focus on archery, you have other disadvantages in the game, namely melee. Many protective spells and environmental effects (namely wind) can completely shut it down.
Each their own, I like the idea of a character smiting demonic forces with arrows :-)
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Fact is, Range and Paladins just dont mix. Unless of course, you want to min max.Hm, I see it a bit differently. Yes, a classic image is that of the warrior with sword and shield. But that's just one of many IMO. If I look at other cultures, such as Japan, using bows was perfectly fine for monks and priests there.
I also don't see it as min-maxing. If you focus on archery, you have other disadvantages in the game, namely melee. Many protective spells and environmental effects (namely wind) can completely shut it down.
Each their own, I like the idea of a character smiting demonic forces with arrows :-)
Then play a oriental campaign.
And you said monks and priests. Monks and priest > paladins. Paladins are beings of honor and virtue. Priest and monks are not held to these standards.
Fact is if you adhere to the Paladin code, then you dont use ranged attacks. Especially when the one you are attacking is meaning to engage in close range melee. Its a cowardly way to defeat a superior opponent and no self respecting paladin would consider such means. Attacking a helpless opponent (one that cannot defend itself or fight back - which is what attacking a non ranged opponent at range means) would never be acceptable to a true paladin.
Your statement "I like the idea of smiting demonic forces with arrows" screams of min max. Raining death from above on creatures that cannot fight back or harm you. Sounds like a real champion with that courage.
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Fact is, Range and Paladins just dont mix. Unless of course, you want to min max.Hm, I see it a bit differently. Yes, a classic image is that of the warrior with sword and shield. But that's just one of many IMO. If I look at other cultures, such as Japan, using bows was perfectly fine for monks and priests there.
I also don't see it as min-maxing. If you focus on archery, you have other disadvantages in the game, namely melee. Many protective spells and environmental effects (namely wind) can completely shut it down.
Each their own, I like the idea of a character smiting demonic forces with arrows :-)
Then play a oriental campaign.
And you said monks and priests. Monks and priest > paladins. Paladins are beings of honor and virtue. Priest and monks are not held to these standards.
Fact is if you adhere to the Paladin code, then you dont use ranged attacks. Especially when the one you are attacking is meaning to engage in close range melee. Its a cowardly way to defeat a superior opponent and no self respecting paladin would consider such means. Attacking a helpless opponent (one that cannot defend itself or fight back - which is what attacking a non ranged opponent at range means) would never be acceptable to a true paladin.
Your statement "I like the idea of smiting demonic forces with arrows" screams of min max. Raining death from above on creatures that cannot fight back or harm you. Sounds like a real champion with that courage.
I just gave a few examples. Besides, I do not see where you get the death from above from. Also it seems you disregard evil opponents such as demons using ranged weaponry as well. Should a paladin charge those as well with his sword and get killed in the process? I do not think so.
You seem to feel quite strongly about your view of what a paladin is about. Cool for you, keep it the way you like. However, I see paladins not as restricted as you appear to.
Enjoy the game :-))
My God you people are pathetic with a halfling archer build? Can you say absolutely rooting for min/max?
First of all, Paladins are knights and beings of great honor. Ranged combat was always considered the cowardly and lesser mans means of combat throughout history. I cannot imagine a being of honor fighting at a distance to avoid getting himself hurt. That is just pathetic.
A real warrior strikes steel with his opponent and proves his skill...not shooting the opponent to death at a range where he cannot fight back.
Ever heard of the Paladin code? Accepting surrender? Not surprise attacking or otherwise cowardly attacking an opponent? Guess what? By making a paladin a ranged attack build, you are doing NOTHING of the paladin code.
So what you are saying is that you care NOTHING of roleplaying and clearly just want to min max to get the smite evil effects at range so that the BBG cant tear a hole in your candy ass?
And a Halfling to boot? Wow. The most WEAKEST and COWARDLY race there is and you wish to stain the honor of the Paladin class by association.
Great going guys.
Haters gonna hate.
Also, halfling s get a +2 bonus to fear saves. They are hardly cowardly.
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I see your point for wanting to drop deadly aim, but that extra damage is just too good to let go. By level five that -4 from DA and Rapid is compensated from your BAB, leaving a +3 from your Dex but also an additional +3 from Smite if you're using it against said enemy. Also by that level you should have Masterwork or +1 Composite giving you anywhere from a +4 to +7 to hit which isn't too bad.
My build is a multiclass; Smite is only 1/day until halfway 'til retirement. Prior to BAB 8, the most I'm going to glean out of Deadly Aim is 16dmg/rnd (requires Manyshot and all four shots hitting including the horrible -9 iterative), damage gains-on-paper which will be instantly off-set by every x3 crit-threat which now does not confirm due to the additional penalties.
Meanwhile, PA picked up at the same time as Weapon Finesse opens up melee avenues; a rapier with a Bless Weapon or Scabbard of Keen Edges will start kicking some butt, especially since I can easily get into flanking with Acrobatics -- in which case I'll be a flat zero penalty to hit (flanking offsetting PA) and using a 15-20 threat-ranged weapon. So, good chances of critting every other round, get +1d6 SA damage over arrows, and fulfill protect-the-squishies role.
First of all, Paladins are knights....
You misspelled "Cavalier". Go sleep with your horse.
Your statement "I like the idea of smiting demonic forces with arrows" screams of min maxMaking a half-elf fighter-archer with 7 CHA and 7 INT screams of min/max.
Paladins are holy warriors of the gods.
And Burlap's deity is Erastil, whose favored weapon is the longbow.
<Bronx cheer>
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I see your point for wanting to drop deadly aim, but that extra damage is just too good to let go. By level five that -4 from DA and Rapid is compensated from your BAB, leaving a +3 from your Dex but also an additional +3 from Smite if you're using it against said enemy. Also by that level you should have Masterwork or +1 Composite giving you anywhere from a +4 to +7 to hit which isn't too bad.My build is a multiclass; Smite is only 1/day until halfway 'til retirement. Prior to BAB 8, the most I'm going to glean out of Deadly Aim is 16dmg/rnd (requires Manyshot and all four shots hitting including the horrible -9 iterative), damage gains-on-paper which will be instantly off-set by every x3 crit-threat which now does not confirm due to the additional penalties.
Meanwhile, PA picked up at the same time as Weapon Finesse opens up melee avenues; a rapier with a Bless Weapon or Scabbard of Keen Edges will start kicking some butt, especially since I can easily get into flanking with Acrobatics -- in which case I'll be a flat zero penalty to hit (flanking offsetting PA) and using a 15-20 threat-ranged weapon. So, good chances of critting every other round, get +1d6 SA damage over arrows, and fulfill protect-the-squishies role.
Okay i see your reasoning, and its quite sound and makes a bit more sense then when i was looking it over haha. Though in Society is it possible to pick up that Scabbard of Keen Edges, and can you PA two-handed with a rapier while a buckler is strapped on your arm?
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A real Min/Maxed paladin-who-sleeps-with-his-horse:
STR+18 ... INT:07 (human, for 3sk/lvl w/FavC Pal)
DEX:12 ... WIS:10
CON:14 ....CHA:15 (all bumps; STR:16/CHA+17 also works)
1. figh1 Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge
2. pala1 (Smite)
3. pala2 (divine grace), Power Attack
4. pala3 (Shining Knight paladin variant), CHA>16
5. pala4 (channel, Smite x2), Furious Focus
6. figh2 (Polearm Master fighter variant), Vital Strike
7. pala5 Channel Smite
8. (more paladin), CHA>17, ...etc.
Gimmick: Uses a lance two-handed when Spirited Charging.
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Attacking a helpless opponent (one that cannot defend itself or fight back - which is what attacking a non ranged opponent at range means) would never be acceptable to a true paladin.
Your statement "I like the idea of smiting demonic forces with arrows" screams of min max. Raining death from above on creatures that cannot fight back or harm you. Sounds like a real champion with that courage.
Just because the pally is shooting at someone from range doesn't mean that the person is defenseless/helpless. There are things called SHIELDS that really help against arrows. It's also possible to move out of the arrows way, knock it out of the way or catch it.
And I hardly see demons/devils as creatures that can't fight back or harm you if you're at range. My party TPK'd in CoT to an erinyes who flew out of our range and rained death down upon us in the form of unholy blight.
But trolls will troll, so carry on with your anti-ranged pally beliefs.
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Cavaliers are all about "honor" (which has as many definitions as there are cavaliers); paladins are on a mission to destroy evil. Paladins show non-evil opponents mercy; they do not give evil creatures (particularly abominations) the time of day nor grant them any advantage, nor are they obligated to. I might stabilize a downed PC-applicable humanoid-species evil opponent and haul them back to town in manacles -- but I will sneak-attack (as a multiclass rogue) and then coup de grace a gnoll raider without a moment's hesitation or any moral qualms.
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Cavaliers are all about "honor" (which has as many definitions as there are cavaliers); paladins are on a mission to destroy evil. Paladins show non-evil opponents mercy; they do not give evil creatures (particularly abominations) the time of day nor grant them any advantage, nor are they obligated to. I might stabilize a downed PC-applicable humanoid-species evil opponent and haul them back to town in manacles -- but I will sneak-attack (as a multiclass rogue) and then coup de grace a gnoll raider without a moment's hesitation or any moral qualms.
+Avogadro's number (that's 6.022 x 10^22)
{diatribe of scorn}
That's only one interpretation of paladins, to many cultures the bow was an honourable weapon and if your halflings are like Tolkein's hobbits they are anything but cowardly.
Fighting intelligently isn't min-maxing, and not all paladins have to be Lawful Stupid.