I haven't yet had a chance to try out the new classes in the Advanced Player's Guide, but just flipping through I couldn't help but think in what a precarious position the alchemist must be in - one stray push down the stairs and either boom he explodes with a flash or if he's lucky all his precious potions just shatter and he's SOL. Looks like a fun character to play but still I have to wonder how viable this class would be. As a DM I like things to be as realistic as possible and I'm sure I'd have to house-rule a chance of everything shattering and spilling and even perhaps exploding in case of a rough shove.
Just curious what others think on this!
Just make sure you apply that rule to ANYONE who's carrying potions, scroll cases, . I get the same urge to Bards with thier lutes, but I restrain myself.
I'm always leery of people who use "realism" as an argument base. By realistic reasoning an adventuring alchemist isn't neccessarily using glass beakers for his potions or extracts, but something specifically designed for dungeoneering use.
Just remember as a DM it's also your responsibility to view things from the player's side as well. If you're going to specially target a class because you think it's amusing to do so. the rational part of you should ban that class from your players.
No I totally agree, this post is just partially in jest and simply a gut reaction to the artwork of the iconic alchemist who looks just oh so fragile with all those glass beakers strapped to his trenchcoat.
As much as this amuses me, with all their alchemy, wouldn't it make sense if they had shatterproof glass? We have opaque plastic, so why not?
Unless a potion is bottled for hurling, something that costs more than most people make in (insert time frame here), you'd think they'd put it in something safer. Maybe it's just me, but I think practicality should be a factor.
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Perhaps his bottles are made of flexible glass collected from a crystal dragon's wings. I'm stretching, but that's all I could dig up of resilient glass. That or alchemist's have a secret spell of unbreakable glass we aren't familiar with yet (or at least I'm unfamiliar with as of this post).
edit: Kakarasa beat me to the punch on the shatterproofing.
Two things I venture to add.
1. The bombs are not explosive until the moment the alchemist decides to chuck it. This means until he adds something they are stable. So you could even say they are in metal or stone vials and are a shock sensitive once he adds the catalyst. Which stops the falls down goes boom problem.
2. I know I have read at least one fantasy novel written in the d&d verse where the hero's carried healing potions in metal vials with a point on the end so they could shove a couple into the ground, and pull them up and dump them down someones throat instead of having to reach into the belt pouch for each potion.So it's not to hard to say the alchemist has some of these for his mixtures, and just cleans them at the end of each day to reuse the next.
Also keep realism out of rpgs, it has no place in them. If you are playing with a dm who honestly makes that a problem for you as an alchemist you either need to smack him with the core rule book, or bring up wear and tear on weapons armor, ration usage, water usage, wear and tear on rope.
Also it would bring up things like. "Ooo the fighter failed his reflex save, all his thunder stones go off."
"That ogre just got a crit on the ranger, roll to see what damage you take from your alchemist fire going off."
Yes it would happen if it was real life, but lets face it we don't okay these games because they are like real life.
Also keep realism out of rpgs, it has no place in them.
You make some very valid points, but I think this is pushing things in the other extreme, otherwise if we are chucking realism out the window why have rules for encumbrance for example. Part of the fun comes from trying to make things somewhat realistic and the points you make in your very own post make things more plausible and realistic. I'm a huge fan of the original Gygaxian 1st edition DMs guide for this very reason.
I'm not sure how tough the alchemist is, but at low levels, he's a wimp to a group of prepared adventurers. I am currently running two separate groups through Godsmouth Heresy
Now, this was a level 1 module, but still...I was expecting more.
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All I can say is that I had one in my last campaign and he was clearly over powered when compared to the rest of the party. Now I cant say for sure why this was because the guy never actually gave me a copy of his character to look at. So it could be we were doing it wrong. Also I would add that he did say he had found a forum explaining how to optimize this class and that he took full advantage of that. Either way the next time I let someone play this class I will be much harder on them in terms of what they can and can not take. In the end though I feel as if I dropped the ball as the DM. I should have been a lot tighter with what the player was doing. By the end I did just want to see his character blown to smithereens. In fact that was exactly how the campaign ended!
All my potion vials are made from copper. A metal that is both easier to work and less expensive than glass.
All my scroll cases are made from hardened leather, and have a wax gasket around the cap.
Alchemist fire is not explosive. It's merely highly flammable. This is not stated in the rules, but it is applicable to historically similar substances such as Greek Fire. Also, there is no indication in the rules that a shock may set it off. Without a source of oxygen, say in a closed vial, Alchemist Fire would not burn.
Thunderstones are sensitive to impact. Fireballs wouldn't set them off. It's possible even a strong blow wouldn't set them off provided they had some sort of cushioning, say, flesh or fabric for example.
Also, that ogre was wearing adamantine armor, all damage is reduced. Furthermore, treat that attack as a sunder attempt on your weapon.
You make some very valid points, but I think this is pushing things in the other extreme, otherwise if we are chucking realism out the window why have rules for encumbrance for example. Part of the fun comes from trying to make things somewhat realistic and the points you make in your very own post make things more plausible and realistic. I'm a huge fan of the original Gygaxian 1st edition DMs guide for this very reason.
Also keep realism out of rpgs, it has no place in them.
That's the thing you have to keep the realism and not realism balanced. Including encumbrance tables, that's not bad, but in a game where it's pretty easy for a man wearing a dress to just destroy the laws of physics, it becomes impractical to start trying to enforce realism on everyone.
My examples were a bit overblown, but lets face it you need to pick and choose where to include the realism. Encumbrance good, alchemist and vials bad, having to eat good, you loose an hour because everyone needed to take a potty break and the elf couldn't find the right kind of bush to water bad.
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"Does anyone else feel like pushing the alchemist down the stairs?"
Every time he needs two rounds to buff in an encounter with nary a forewarning, I feel like kicking my alchy off a cliff. Then he lucks out with initiative in the next encounter and proceeds to wipe the floor with the opposition and I recall why I chose the class. :D
If you feel like restricting the alchemist, consider introducing some kind of toxicity count a la The Witcher. Enough mutagens and extracts a day and he starts to feel nausea, dim vision, etc. In my character's case, I've actually roleplayed the aspect of getting tired and overstressed by the concoctions. Adrenaline rush turns to sweating and salivating. Battle trance slowly develops into a disgusting mixture of hypersensitivity and anxiety. The shock of energy brings euphoria, but takes away lots.
Then you, naturally enough, get to the withdrawals once there's nothing else to fight or any mixtures left to imbibe...
Also keep realism out of rpgs, it has no place in them. If you are playing with a dm who honestly makes that a problem for you as an alchemist you either need to smack him with the core rule book, or bring up wear and tear on weapons armor, ration usage, water usage, wear and tear on rope.
Agreed! At least to a point... I want SOME realism in a game, But the realism I want in a game isn't very much.
Lets be honest... we don't want a game where average guys go walking down the street... We're playing a game about HEROES... The kind who leap off buildings and swing from chandeliers that would never hold their weight in real life. The kind who leap through fire without having their hair burn off and their faces scar...
The kind that can a man and a dwarf COULD hold a bridge for long enough to rebarricade a door...
HEROES...
NOT the kind where every time they get hit they loose their potions... That's lame. Losers are the ones who lose their special gear before they need it.
James bond never has that kind of trouble...
I'd also agree, that 1) their gear doesn't explode till they WANT it too... 2)If you want to break THEIR potions, you have to do it to everyone...
My entire group. I killed our rogue on accident.
You make some very valid points, but I think this is pushing things in the other extreme, otherwise if we are chucking realism out the window why have rules for encumbrance for example. Part of the fun comes from trying to make things somewhat realistic and the points you make in your very own post make things more plausible and realistic. I'm a huge fan of the original Gygaxian 1st edition DMs guide for this very reason.
Also keep realism out of rpgs, it has no place in them.
Dear WD,
I read the article Combat and Armour Class by Roger Musson with considerable dismay. I t appears that the good gentleman does not know what D&D and is all about. Dungeons & Dragons is a fantasy game, of course, and this most reasonably indicates that statements regarding "realism" in a game must go out the window. (Quite frankly, there is no game with any true realism in it, or i t would be real and not a game. Folks seeking realism should go and participate in whatever the game is based on, if possible, viz. if they are looking for realism in wargames they should enlist in the military service.) I t got worse thereafter. D&D is a HEROIC fantasy game. Who can slit Conan's throat at a blow? The examples are too numerous to mention, but the point is that the game is aimed at allowing participants t o create a heroic character who is not subject to some fluke. Getting killed requires a lot of (mis-)play in most cases. How does the fighter escape the dragon's breath? The same way other superheroes do - bending a link of chain or slipping into an unnoticed crevass in the rock he was chained t o or whatever, i.e. the same way all other larger-than- life sword & sorcery heroes manage t o avoid certain death. In summation, most players find that the game of seeking and gaining, with the ensuing increase in character capability is the thing. Combat at best is something t o be done quickly so as t o get on with the fun, and I T MUST NOT BE LOADED SO AS TO GIVE PLAYERS NO CHANCE TO ESCAPE I F I T IS GOING AGAINST THEM. Neither, of course, must i t be a walkover. (And Conan is usually in a shirt of mail in battle!) Enough said.
Best Wishes, E. Gary Gygax, Lake Geneva,-USA.
It interests me as to how many GMs are the "me vs. the party" type. I don't view it that way at all.
I'm the storyteller, designer, mediator, referee, etc. If I think a character is overpowered but still within the context of the rules, I don't get harder on him at all. I ramp up the difficulty of encounters to compensate, or I add encounters to sap party resources.
I don't think it's fair to come down on the players at all, they enjoy being powerful, let them.
Insert obligatory 'I told you about stairs'.
My favorite "realism" based argument by a gm (no, I'm not kidding, this did actually happen): "Did the attack get past your AC? No? Well did it hit your touch AC? Why you ask? Because you got hit with a club from a huge creature and you're in full plate. realistically, you've just been hit with enough force to knock you prone and had the wind knocked out of you."
So yea, I tend to agree about leaving the "realism" arguments out of rpgs.
I added some spoiler tags.
Oh I forgot to mention this, my alchemist actually did fall down the stairs. It was kinda funny.
I had my alchemist mix up an extract of levitate, in case he fell off of a bridge. And then I realized... how difficult is it to drink a potion while in free fall?
So he went and made new vials out of leather, like a wineskin. That way he could just squeeze it in, without waiting for gravity to bring the contents out to him.
Just because the Iconic is covered in glass, doesn't mean all alchemists are.
Your hit by a huge sized greatclub, with mass of X, and velocity of Y. The force generated by this, Z, renders you to a stain upon the wall of the chamber.
What? Hit points? Oh don't be silly! We're being realistic here!
:)
Actually, there was an article in Dragon Magazine written, I believe, by Gary Gygax discussing the true definition behind the mechanics of "Hit Points". I'll try and find it and post it here if I do, but considering it's been an accepted point of view on hit points since 1st Edition, then I am confident enough to say it still continues in that format today :D
EDIT: Actually, for those that have it, here is the location of it --- 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide pg.82
I play a dwarf alchemist in Kingmaker, and roleplay that my bombs are blackpowder charges with a mercury fulminate trigger. I keep the triggers seperate till i actualy throw the bombs, so no accidental detonations.
To better the roleplaying, I even looked up the old alchemical names for the ingredients of those chemicals. That really impressed my dm when i told him i was making a mixture of aqua fortis and quicksilver.(it also helped that ethanol is one of the ingredients. what else would a dwarf use as a weapon besides booze?)
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I had my alchemist mix up an extract of levitate, in case he fell off of a bridge. And then I realized... how difficult is it to drink a potion while in free fall?
You are essentially talking about being able to take an extract as an immediate action which is pretty awesome. Falling 50 feet takes what a second? Barely enough time to react, let alone take a standard action. I suppose if he has to fall more than 100 feet and has a full rounds worth of time to respond?
I had my alchemist mix up an extract of levitate, in case he fell off of a bridge. And then I realized... how difficult is it to drink a potion while in free fall?You are essentially talking about being able to take an extract as an immediate action which is pretty awesome. Falling 50 feet takes what a second? Barely enough time to react, let alone take a standard action. I suppose if he has to fall more than 100 feet and has a full rounds worth of time to respond?
I believe my GM allowed me to ready the action. He had the opening of the leather bottle between his teeth as he tried to keep his balance with his hands. It was about a 60' drop too, but I'm not sure about RAW in such a case.
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I believe my GM allowed me to ready the action. He had the opening of the leather bottle between his teeth as he tried to keep his balance with his hands. It was about a 60' drop too, but I'm not sure about RAW in such a case.I had my alchemist mix up an extract of levitate, in case he fell off of a bridge. And then I realized... how difficult is it to drink a potion while in free fall?You are essentially talking about being able to take an extract as an immediate action which is pretty awesome. Falling 50 feet takes what a second? Barely enough time to react, let alone take a standard action. I suppose if he has to fall more than 100 feet and has a full rounds worth of time to respond?
Ah... I think I'd probably let it fly with a readied action too... or at least worked something out.
I thought you meant it as an always on sort of contingency.
My alchemist does not use mutagen in a vial. It is a super energy pill that goes into his capsule ring.
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Flukes sometimes happen
A couple of months ago, while visiting the local gaming store, I stopped by to see what one of my friends was up to. He was running a Pathfinder game set in Ptolus. He invited me to join the table for the evening. Rather then going through the trouble of making a sixth level character, we decided to use one of my pathfinder characters. I used my alchemist Fizzabang the Fabulous Rouge 2 / alchemist 4. I believe the DM said something like “Don’t Worry since you are just sitting in for the evening and this isn’t an official PFS game, nothing will carry over. “
As the evening progressed our party explored some sewers. I think we were hunting some sort of drow alchemist and some jacked up gnolls. We found an enchanted font filled with water. We all decided to drink from the pool. Nothing happened. The cleric decided to drink from the pool again. He said my character has the highest will save and he is the least likely to be affected by any magical effects of the pool. The DM asked him to roll a D 20. The player rolled a 1. The DM asked him to roll another d20. The player rolled another 1. The DM informed the player that his character had come under the pools magic and he had become confused. More dice were rolled. A table was consulted.
About that time Gnolls burst into the room. Initiative was rolled. The cleric went berserk, attacking the nearest creature. The next round the cleric had a moment of lucidity. He cast bull Strength. The battle went on like this. In alternating rounds the cleric would either be berserk and attack something nearby him, and in the next round in a moment of lucidity he would cast a buffing spell on himself i.e. divine favor something like that.
After a few rounds, I think there were three was the cleric, my gnome alchemist, and a gnoll left standing The cleric again went berserk and attacked the nearest creature, namely my gnome. The player rolled a 20. He then confirmed his critical hit with another 20. My character was reduced to negative hit points. He was almost dead. The DM said, “ With a mighty blow the cleric hits the gnome with a swing of his mace, and sends the gnome flying into the wall with a wet smack. And the gnome slides down the side of the wall.” I then said those faithful works “ what about all of those potions and bombs the cleric did hit my character with his mace right? “ The Dm said, “Ok roll a d 20, your reflex save is your strong save right? “ I replied, “ yes it is and my character has evasion from his rogue classes, he should be fine.” I rolled a 1. The DM said “ oh my, that isn’t good, roll again”
I rolled another 1. The DM decided that since the other player had rolled two consecutive twenties, and since I had rolled two consecutive 1s something spectacular was going to happen. He decided all the bombs were going to go off. When we totaled the damage to my character he was at -96 hit points. He drew a red splotch on the gaming map (a very large 1’ sq sheet of graph paper) with the sewer map and a nice big -96 on it, wit the words “Fizabang R. I. P.”
It now hangs in the gaming room.
The DM said, “ don’t worry, while the party can’t raise your character from the dead, none of this carries over to PFS, because this wasn’t an official game”. All in all we had a good time that evening.
I haven't yet had a chance to try out the new classes in the Advanced Player's Guide, but just flipping through I couldn't help but think in what a precarious position the alchemist must be in - one stray push down the stairs and either boom he explodes with a flash or if he's lucky all his precious potions just shatter and he's SOL. Looks like a fun character to play but still I have to wonder how viable this class would be. As a DM I like things to be as realistic as possible and I'm sure I'd have to house-rule a chance of everything shattering and spilling and even perhaps exploding in case of a rough shove.
Just curious what others think on this!
No, but there is a certain Monk I have considered pushing down the stairs!
But the likelyhood it actually having the desired effect is very low!
I would like to push the alchemist down the stairs, but that is less about the alchemist and more about my general wish to push random people down the stairs ;)
My alchemist does not use mutagen in a vial. It is a super energy pill.Yes, I get loads of emails offering me those at competitive prices.
Its that damn shoe shine boy!
Blue and Green dragons have a nasty ability that destroys liquid-based items in a ten-foot radius. An Adult blue that I ran recently removed 82 potions and related items in one fell swoop...many tears were shed. Just something to remember for those DMs who are looking to take their Alkies down a peg.
Here's some more ways to dick your players:
Throw water or breathe fire on a wizard, take them down a peg too. Oh, and make a druid use a metal weapon/armor. Somehow. And have really bright shiny lights illuminating a room with motion sensors to deny the rogue his sneak attack. And have the cleric's god hate him. And offer incredibly subjective moral choices to the paladin. Break the bard's flute. Make the monk wear armor. Make every room silenced so the sorceror can't cast spells. Have the entire dungeon in a magic circle against good, so the summoner can't summon.