While reading through the rules I stumbled upon a pretty funny loophole.
"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2)."
Now, if you combine that with:
"Catch Off-Guard (Combat)"
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
you can use arrows as melee weapons without penalty. And the great thing about arrows is that enchanted arrows are a lot cheaper than regular weapons! A single magical arrow is 50 times cheaper than a melee weapon counterpart. This means you can get your +10 melee weapon as soon as level 3 or 4 (assuming standard wealth and access to a magic item mart) and you're good to go!
Have fun slaying evil wearing a full-plate, tower shield and wielding your deadly arrow. Stabby stabby!
Hah! Neat.
I love it.
But I think most GM's will be quick to declare that the arrow is also fragile and is spent as if it was fired from the bow.
Although magic items are also immune to mundane breaking...
LOL, good find :)
Unfortunately this rule applies, no matter in what way an arrow is used:
Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.
On another note, there is no such thing as a +10 weapon in the Pathfinder RPG. The maximum possible enhancement bonus is +5.
Ha ha, nice. I do think that most DM would make it(the arrow) break if you were to try that loop-hole though.
I have a possible munchkin trick I thought of a while back though, even though it requires higher levels.
Called, but not summoned creatures can take things with them.
You call a creature that can swallow hole. Once it swallows someone you dismiss it. In theory the swallowed person should be taken along for the ride.
edit:changed "than" to "that"
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I'd allow it. But some people might argue that an arrow isn't an improvised weapon since RAW says "Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat." and and an arrow is in fact already a weapon.
As for the arrow breaking, IDK. The arrow does damage but doesn't break for Stabbing Shot so I could see the argument for both sides.
*EDIT*Nevermind my comment about arrows not being improvised weapons. I'm tired, and at work which makes for a bad combination while posting.
an arrow is ammunition, not a weapon, two different things in game terms. and stabbing shot does seem to imply it doesn't break on a melee attack. Any other rules to stop this or could this actually work.
I think it is rules legal, but I don't like the loophole so I would say that you can only stab with an arrow once before it break.
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Ha ha, nice. I do think that most DM would make it(the arrow) break if you were to try that loop-hole though.
I have a possible munchkin trick I thought of a while back though, even though it requires higher levels.
Called, but not summoned creatures can take things with them.
You call a creature than can swallow hole. Once it swallows someone you dismiss it. In theory the swallowed person should be taken along for the ride.
I'd allow this. It's creative, and I like to reward my players for being creative.
Called, but not summoned creatures can take things with them.
People aren't things.
People aren't things.
Called, but not summoned creatures can take things with them.
I was not using the word things in a literal sense as in objects.
just as armor spikes, I (as a DM, not a munchkin) would argue that the arrow needs 2 different enchantments, one as melee and one as ranged.
However the munchkin gets the masterwork for free (doesn't need to pay it twice for both enchantments) because of his nice find.
reasoning:
the first rule cited says nothing about using the appropriate ending or mechanism to use it as a dagger.
Where in the rules does it state that you can buy fewer than 50 magic arrows?
Where in the rules does it state that you can buy fewer than 50 magic arrows?
It's not in the rule but I have seen 20 +1 arrow available for sale in published adventures. As well if you can sell 20 +1 arrows you found as loot for half price you should be able to buy lesser quantities than 50. Seeing as you sold lesser quantities to that shop it now has less than 50 to sell.
Heh, if someone tried this in my campaign, the first time they hit with the arrow it would break.
Now, with quickdraw or a handy haversack, could you keep drawing and using new arrows until you ran out?
Neat exploit.
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Just divide the price of 50 arrows by 50, multiply it by the amount of arrows sold and voila...any salesman would be an idiot not to try to sell as many arrows as he can, meaning that he wouldn't insist on a character buying 50 arrows. He would sell less, but maybe amp the price up a little.
I mean seriously, use common sense. Because arrows are enchanted in stack of 50 that means that you have to buy them in stacks of 50? How ridiculous does that sound?
Oh, and no. I would not allow this in my games...in the least, i would say that each time somebody stabs something with an arrow, there is a 50% chance of it snapping in half/
Just divide the price of 50 arrows by 50, multiply it by the amount of arrows sold and voila...any salesman would be an idiot not to try to sell as many arrows as he can, meaning that he wouldn't insist on a character buying 50 arrows. He would sell less, but maybe amp the price up a little.
I mean seriously, use common sense. Because arrows are enchanted in stack of 50 that means that you have to buy them in stacks of 50? How ridiculous does that sound?Oh, and no. I would not allow this in my games...in the least, i would say that each time somebody stabs something with an arrow, there is a 50% chance of it snapping in half/
I believe the 50% breakage by RAW is on a miss. On a hit breakage is automatic.
See with a title like that I thought you were dredging up Pun-Pun, thats not even worthy of the munchkin in the title.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerfu l_character._EVER.
Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
So a rogue using an arrow with this feat... sneak attack city... ok so it might break, so take quick draw and carry a quiver. The flat footed will help overcome some basic enchantments.
Where in the rules does it state that you can buy fewer than 50 magic arrows?
The specific magic weapons section includes arrows that are priced per arrow.
Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.So a rogue using an arrow with this feat... sneak attack city... ok so it might break, so take quick draw and carry a quiver. The flat footed will help overcome some basic enchantments.
You might need a GM ruling on whether quickdraw works with ammunition since the feat lists "weapons". Of course, as a player, I'd point out that drawing arrows is a free action if you are using a bow, so....
I suppose as a GM I might house rule that arrows are close enough to weapons that the improvised weapon "surprise" element does not apply and so the rogue would not gain the flat footed condition.
Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.So a rogue using an arrow with this feat... sneak attack city... ok so it might break, so take quick draw and carry a quiver. The flat footed will help overcome some basic enchantments.
Sadly only few enemies are unarmed, so the feat isn't so much a no-brainer for rogues.
And if the arrows break, they might as well take some other improvised weapon.
And if the arrows break, they might as well take some other improvised weapon.
Except that it's pretty hard to find a +4 flaming burst broken wine bottle....
Except that it's pretty hard to find a +4 flaming burst broken wine bottle....
unless you're in vegas.
Hah! Neat.
I love it.
But I think most GM's will be quick to declare that the arrow is also fragile and is spent as if it was fired from the bow.
Although magic items are also immune to mundane breaking...
Not unless, of course, it is a Durable Arrow
unless you're in vegas.
Except that it's pretty hard to find a +4 flaming burst broken wine bottle....
Yeah, but it would just stay Vegas. Can't take it with you.
Yeah, but it would just stay Vegas. Can't take it with you.unless you're in vegas.
Except that it's pretty hard to find a +4 flaming burst broken wine bottle....
Well you know the old saying:
If you can't take your enchanted broken wine bottle from vegas, bring your enemy to you.
This would work, but per the RAW the arrow would break if the attack was successful, and 50% of the time even if the attack missed. The breakage could be circumvented by using a durable arrow, but enchantments placed on such ammunition are expended after one use.
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Monks can use bows, yes?
I think I've found the 'flavour' for any Monk character I ever play. =)
Much thanks.
Monks are proficient with Crossbows, but not bows. So, you could do this with bolts, I suppose, though Id still rule on the side of it being broken once you hit with it.
Its a cool idea overall, just seems kinda impractical for magical arrows.
Heh, if someone tried this in my campaign, the first time they hit with the arrow it would break.Now, with quickdraw or a handy haversack, could you keep drawing and using new arrows until you ran out?
Neat exploit.
Would you even need quick draw or a handy haversack?
I believe you can draw ammo as a free action from a quiver.
Would you even need quick draw or a handy haversack?
I believe you can draw ammo as a free action from a quiver.
But that might not cover the action required to ready an (improvised) melee weapon.
True
Well, there is this language in the magic section. Core, 468, "Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage."
It doesn't say it has to be fired, just if it misses, there is a 50% chance it still is around, and if it hits its destroyed. So, sorry, loophole closed by RAW.
This also means if you stab and miss with the arrow, you still have a 50% chance of breaking the arrow even though you missed. Ouch.
Neat. I'd probably allow it a few times for the sake of fun.
However, I'd say RAI is that enchantments to magic items only apply when they are being used in the function they are designed for. That's why your +2 shield doesn't count as a magic weapon for shield bash.
Arrow breakage is less of a concern than the magic being discharged after each hit. My inclination would be for the 50/50 to lose the enchantment after you stab something with the arrow / crossbow bolt.
You don't need Quick Draw for ammunition. You can draw ammunition as a free action already.
Simply stab the guy for fun sneak attack damage, draw another, repeat. Fun times to be had.
(Though it makes little sense.)
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You don't need Quick Draw for ammunition. You can draw ammunition as a free action already.
Simply stab the guy for fun sneak attack damage, draw another, repeat. Fun times to be had.
(Though it makes little sense.)
Until he draws a weapon (or unless he is amonk)...
Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
You don't need Quick Draw for ammunition. You can draw ammunition as a free action already.
Simply stab the guy for fun sneak attack damage, draw another, repeat. Fun times to be had.
(Though it makes little sense.)
By RAW as a free action you can use arrows with a bow.
It is not clear to me that by RAW you can "draw and wield" an arrow as a weapon on its own. What RAW says about arrows is: "Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action." Drawing an arrow for use as an improvised weapon would seem to follow the rules for drawing an item such as a wand.
Well, there is this language in the magic section. Core, 468, "Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage."
It doesn't say it has to be fired, just if it misses, there is a 50% chance it still is around, and if it hits its destroyed. So, sorry, loophole closed by RAW.
This also means if you stab and miss with the arrow, you still have a 50% chance of breaking the arrow even though you missed. Ouch.
So how does the feat "Stabbing Shot work?"
So how does the feat "Stabbing Shot work?"
Well, for starters, you have to make a Full Attack with a Longbow or Shortbow (not just 'holding an arrow') and be adjacent to an opponent. Then you use the first shot as a melee attack with the drawn arrow (rather than firing it), which pushes the target 5ft away. Whether or not you keep the arrow is up for debate.
So how does the feat "Stabbing Shot work?"Well, there is this language in the magic section. Core, 468, "Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage."
It doesn't say it has to be fired, just if it misses, there is a 50% chance it still is around, and if it hits its destroyed. So, sorry, loophole closed by RAW.
This also means if you stab and miss with the arrow, you still have a 50% chance of breaking the arrow even though you missed. Ouch.
Well, APG, 170, "If the attack hits—whether or not it does damage—your target is pushed back 5 feet away from you. You can then fire arrows from your bow normally, at the original target, or at another target within range."
It speaks nothing of what happens to the arrow, so it follows the regular rules, if it hit, its gone, if it missed, its gone, if its magical and missed, 50/50 chance its gone.Some other interesting things... It doesn't negate the -4 for using the arrow as an improvised weapon. Doesn't let you use dex instead of str. Overall, not such a great feat anyway. (Unless you want to recreate that one blonde elf...)
A disarming rogue would love this!
Dual weild arrow and Nunchaku.
First attack disarm then stab stab stab all with sneak attack since they are flat footed.
If an arrow breaks since it is amunition you can draw an arrow out of a quiver as a free action, stab stab stab.
<ROFL>
While reading through the rules I stumbled upon a pretty funny loophole.
"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2)."
Now, if you combine that with:
"Catch Off-Guard (Combat)"
** spoiler omitted **
you can use arrows as melee weapons without penalty. And the great thing about arrows is that enchanted arrows are a lot cheaper than regular weapons! A single magical arrow is 50 times cheaper than a melee weapon counterpart. This means you can get your +10 melee weapon as soon as level 3 or 4 (assuming standard wealth and access to a magic item mart) and you're good to go!
Have fun slaying evil wearing a full-plate, tower shield and wielding your deadly arrow. Stabby stabby!
I would let you use the arrow for about 3 fights then disarm it and shoot you with it destroying the arrow
Freaking ninjas.
Actually you could use this to get cold iron melee weapons at one silver piece a swing with cold iron arrows is probably the most practical. Or use this with weapon blanch in melee to get more swings at a reduced price. For anything other than cold iron to bypass damage reduction. Also dual wield the arrows.
edit if drawing ammo is a free action why not take catch off guard as a feat with a fighter archer and then get Aoo with the arrows after each turn if someone goes up and provokes since you normally do not threaten. You can just draw another one.