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All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
Once you start adding on equations it's like Ptolemy's Epicycles trying to make the math work for the earth as the center of the universe when...it isn't.
Make guns great for gunslingers and fun flavored suboptimal parlor tricks for everyone else. Like it should have been planned from the beginning.
The last we need is every attack the gunslinger makes giving sneak attack damage. :P
Here is a solution from a GM's side when wanting to have bullets not penetrate armor or creature. We'll call it the "Bullet-proof" special quality:
Bullet-Proof (ex): Against Firearms, this creature applies its normal AC rather then let the firearm resolve against its touch AC.
There. Now we can toss that around for monsters/armors that might come up that should be bullet-resistant (such as Grizzly Bears or Dragons).
Otherwise, the rule is simple as is. Nothing better than simple.
Good Idea
But this idea is what i was afraid of.
The need to come up with more special ability, to counter a new game mechanic. Then the need to go back, and change many creatures, to grant them this ability, to get them up to date with the new game mechanic. Which was why i was against giving Touch Attack to guns, once this flaw was pointed out to me.
All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
True. Having to roll a SR roll, for any Gun Touch attack would be an extra roll.
But it would be no different that what caster have to go throw now, when casting a spell. If fact it would be easier on the gun user, since they do not need to go look up the spell, to see if SR effect that particular spell.
............
Also, SR is already listed for each creature. So you would not have to go back and change anything.
The more magical the creatures, the higher the SR, the less likely they are effected by Gun Touch Attack.... But are still effected by Normal Gun Attacks.
Anyway, that was the best Homebrew/HouseRule i could come up with; that let the guns work as intended by the game designers, while at the same time providing High level or Magical Creatures that have SR with a kind of saving throw vs the Touch Attack, by turning it into a normal attack. (or immunity to Touch attack from low level players, while still giving high level player the opportunity to do Touch Attack vs High SR creatures).
( example Ancient Dragon SR 28 = 28-20 = 8th level or below character has no chance of doing a touch attack with a gun, while a 15th level character would only need to roll a 12 or better to be able to do a Touch attack vs a dragon.......Even if he fails the SR roll, it is still a normal attack, which can do damage to the dragon if it can hit the dragons normal AC total.
People in armor with shields, all animals, Creatures without SR which there are a lot off, are still effected by guns as designed by Pathfinder.
All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
Once you start adding on equations it's like Ptolemy's Epicycles trying to make the math work for the earth as the center of the universe when...it isn't.
Make guns great for gunslingers and fun flavored suboptimal parlor tricks for everyone else. Like it should have been planned from the beginning.
now that would work.
So in the hands of a non-gunslinger it goes against regular AC or against Flatfooted AC?I think against FFAC would still place guns a "notch" above other weapons but would still account for armor playing a part (AFAIK FF is full AC minus DEX bonus).
Although that would make Monks easier to hit for non-GS characters.
now that I think about it I would use Full AC.
All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
Once you start adding on equations it's like Ptolemy's Epicycles trying to make the math work for the earth as the center of the universe when...it isn't.
Make guns great for gunslingers and fun flavored suboptimal parlor tricks for everyone else. Like it should have been planned from the beginning.
now that would work.
So in the hands of a non-gunslinger it goes against regular AC or against Flatfooted AC?
I think against FFAC would still place guns a "notch" above other weapons but would still account for armor playing a part (AFAIK FF is full AC minus DEX bonus).
FF AC - Dex - Dodge IIRC.
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All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
Once you start adding on equations it's like Ptolemy's Epicycles trying to make the math work for the earth as the center of the universe when...it isn't.
Make guns great for gunslingers and fun flavored suboptimal parlor tricks for everyone else. Like it should have been planned from the beginning.
now that would work.
So in the hands of a non-gunslinger it goes against regular AC or against Flatfooted AC?
I think against FFAC would still place guns a "notch" above other weapons but would still account for armor playing a part (AFAIK FF is full AC minus DEX bonus).
Although that would make Monks easier to hit for non-GS characters.
now that I think about it I would use Full AC.
What I've said from the beginning is certain features should be gunslinger only.
If you want guns to be touch AC, take a one level dip in gunslinger.
If you want to reload as a free action, you'll need 6 levels of gunslinger (since this is when I would give it to gunslingers, since it is the first time they could make a second attack...)
If you want no misfire chance, put that somewhere in the things gunslingers get, maybe taking it every few levels for different weapons.
Guns can be awesome, if they are only awesome for the class made specifically for use of guns.
Otherwise they should be mediocre mechanically, but cool flavor-wise.
What about just a simple equipment bonus for the firearm?
Short arms +1
Long Arms +2
Then you can make adjustments for effects/improvements.
Like Masterwork, special material bullets, etc.
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What about just a simple equipment bonus for the firearm?
Short arms +1
Long Arms +2Then you can make adjustments for effects/improvements.
Like Masterwork, special material bullets, etc.
I would be fine with touch ammunition, or higher damage ammunition. I think that could have been a better way to go, as it would have been a greater limiting factor and something else to give a gunslinger special access to.
Maybe even a spell-like "never out of ammo" ability.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
Everything about the way the Guns work seem to be designed to slow the game down, but you are complaining about a desired change that is intended to speed the game up from RAW Guns/Gunslingers?
The 4 solutions to the rules as they are in round 2:
- SR as it works well with monsters:
I have to say that the SR method does seem like a decent solution.
- Flat Foot from OP
- Brilliant Energy (from me or any number of others as I have no idea who thought of it first)
- Bullet Proof (Ex)
I think they are best for different reasons. Brilliant and Flatfoot are existing mechanics and Flatfoot is on every character sheet.
SR is a new mechanic, but is typically on every character sheet.
Bullet Proof is a good mechanic and if used, would be on every character sheet.
I can say this definitively, I will not be playing RAW (as it is now) in any game I run. I'm not sure if a Gunslinger sits down at a PFS table what I would do. Would I play the house rule despite the Gunslinger being present? Or would I request he play another table?
I just really don't like this mechanic (the Touch AC != Touch Attack monstrosity.)
I'd have to say, even if its just giving this effect to gunslingers.. It is ridiculous. My GM would never allow such a weapon, as it would be way too much as an advantage.
Why can they not use the rules they presented in dragon 321?
EDIT..
I've thought of something even more ridiculous..
Okay if ALL armor is ignored by a firearm.. Why does the bullet just not keep going until it hits something on the second range increment? Hell, why do I even have to worry about cover in the first range?
Obviously, because I can shoot even a lead bullet through a adamantine golems armor, Shooting through a line of goblins should be no problem.
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Obviously, because I can shoot even a lead bullet through a adamantine golems armor, Shooting through a line of goblins should be no problem.
Your adamantine golem got a huge DR/epic, fast healing 10, and could probably pulverize your weapon in only one Sundering attempt, since a +5 firearm got 15 Resistance ignored by adamantium fists and 55 HP against 2x6d10+13 (19-20 x2). With a command like "attack intruders, kill more dangerous targets first", I hope your gunslinger is ready to become a flat red stain on the ground once the golem will see him as the most able to hit it -and- that he is in his first range increment.
Bullets hitting touch AC isn't exclusively "armor piercing", it's also meant to represent the kinetic energy/vibration of a bullet hitting it's target, much like someone hit with a kevlar vest will feel like if they were punched hard in the chest. If sound is the worst enemy of objects and constructions, vibrations from a magical bullet can be too.
V2: Add a box to the character sheet for faster checking. On the sheet:
"Hey Joe what's your shell bonus to ac?"
Joe looks at the box: "+2"Alright, I have an extra +2 when I attack Joe's character with my pistol. (Since my bonus can't pass his armor+shield+natural armor - which is 2)
I like the idea of a "shell bonus" as a combination of natural armor, shield, umm... styrofoam.
Designate a weapon as having some sort of "piercing" attribute with a numeric value. Suppose a certain gun has piercing 4. If the target's shell bonus is less than or equal to the piercing rating of the gun, it's against touch AC, else it's against the standard AC of the target including the shell bonus.
(It's a pretty rough simplification, since Pathfinder doesn't model armor penetration, and simpler than calculating partial penetrations up to shell bonus, etc.)
Cept, by exactly what you've said, you've also dug your grave for it.
The kevelar vest converts damage from a bullet, reducing its damage and converts it to non-leathal damage.
besides that.. We've got a guy with 40 str who attacks you with a lead bullet. Does he just hit touch AC as well? Why not? He should be attacking at the same speed as a gun.
And again.. My bullet should be able to go through a line of goblins if its going to ignore armor value.
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The kevelar vest converts damage from a bullet, reducing its damage and converts it to non-leathal damage.
When you are in full-plate and the ennemy cleric hits you with a maul/mace, he doesn't find the little weakness in your armor's articulations that allow him to slip a blade in your body. He just hits like a stupid monkey and it hurts through your armor/crushes the metal in case of critical hit. Though, it isn't nonlethal damage.
Bullets do the same, they pierce through or simply hit so hard the armor that you still suffer from the attack.besides that.. We've got a guy with 40 str who attacks you with a lead bullet. Does he just hit touch AC as well? Why not? He should be attacking at the same speed as a gun.
It would be fun to see a feat chain allowing to do this !
And again.. My bullet should be able to go through a line of goblins if its going to ignore armor value.
Piercing Shot was a deed proposed in a rewrite of the class during the alpha test. :)
The solution I've decided to use if, and I do mean if, I allow firearms in my campaign is simply to generate a DR rating table for the combined total of armor bonus and natural armor bonus with critical hits ignoring this DR and a minimum of 1 damage. If you've ever seen the bruise left from a round hitting a Kevlar vest, then you know there must be a minimum.
This solves the touch attack issue quite nicely, I think. Let's face it, there should be some heroes and creatures out there that have armor/hides tough enough to withstand a bullet.
Why not just give guns an armor piercing ability like in other games with guns?
A gun may have AP1 or AP2, or whatever the amount listed in it's entry.
Really, it's kind of a mistake that they didn't take this route to begin with, seeing as it is kind of an established way of handling firearms in RPGs.
Why not just give guns an armor piercing ability like in other games with guns?
A gun may have AP1 or AP2, or whatever the amount listed in it's entry.
Really, it's kind of a mistake that they didn't take this route to begin with, seeing as it is kind of an established way of handling firearms in RPGs.
How many of those other games have armor contribute to a chance of totally ignoring the blow, rather than lessening the damage?
Armor is a very abstract concept in D&D. It stands to reason that any rule tampering with it seems wonky from the perspective of realism.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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[list]Brilliant Energy ... This would work except:A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects.
I think the touch AC should work as it is...for Gunslingers only.
In the first range increment, if proficient, you gain a bonus to attack equal to half your BAB on any attacks.
You could solve the Brilliant problem by adding "works like Brilliant Energy weapon property, but can harm undead, constructs, and objects."
Having anything to do with shooting the weapon be Gunslinger only is a major mistake. So the Touch AC mechanic (if we have it despite it being fatally flawed) should never be Gunslinger only. The suggestion I made also shouldn't be Gunslinger only.
All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
My suggestion of granting a static +1/2 BAB bonus on Gun attacks in the first range increment solves all the problems by increasing the chance to hit about the same average amount as targeting touch AC.
Why not just give guns an armor piercing ability like in other games with guns?
A gun may have AP1 or AP2, or whatever the amount listed in it's entry.
Really, it's kind of a mistake that they didn't take this route to begin with, seeing as it is kind of an established way of handling firearms in RPGs.
Wasn't one of the design goals in Pathfinder Core to cut down on the number of fiddly modifiers? I beleive Jason mentioned something about that way back during the Core playtest.
It's no more complicated than anything else being suggested.
No harder than tracking the +1 from MW weapons.
My AP2 revolver ignores 2 points of armor bonus. Is it that hard?
Each gun type would have a set amount of AP, only to be raised with magic enhancement.
Much more refined than just ignoring all armor, which makes no sense.
Actually, ignoring all armor to check for a hit makes perfect sense. It's the damage being equal across the board, regardless of your armor protection that's bothersome to me.
I know I'm just a new guy in these parts, but I have over 30 years experience with D&D and other game systems. I've been working out the math, and I'll post my DR solution in the House Rules section when it's ready.
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My suggestion of granting a static +1/2 BAB bonus on Gun attacks in the first range increment solves all the problems by increasing the chance to hit about the same average amount as targeting touch AC.
on another thread I suggested this, adapted from Brilliant Energy:
1pt of shield/armor/natural bypass per gunslinger level for all creatures except undead and constructs, in which case it's 1pt of shield/armor per gunslinger level; I would also extend this against objects for 1pt of hardness per gunslinger level. This is reduced by 2 pts for each increment above the 1st, same amount as attack roll penalties.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I just thought of a couple more things.
Two additional ways to look at this to avoid the bad wording I hate seeing introduced into the system.
The first is more complicated than the second.
- Guns are touch attacks and the target's Armor and Shield on monster become damage reduction. So hit touch ac, deal 30 damage, if the creature has DR 10/adamantine and 12 Armor, it has DR 10/adamantine and 12/armor. Take 30-12 = 18 damage, monster takes 18 damage.
- Just noticed Pinpoint Targeting has a better wording. "The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class."
At least this way you are not thinking it is a touch attack.
It's the damage being equal across the board, regardless of your armor protection that's bothersome to me.
Update the "piercing" attribute to add bleed damage, starting on the round in which damage is inflicted, if the piercing attribute is greater than or equal to the "shell bonus." Sure, won't model internal bleeding from ruptured organs or cracked ribs when your armor is just enough to stop piercing, but not enough to absorb the blow, but it'll sorta get the effect you're going for.
I'm for going back to the 3.5 Pathfinder Chronicles version of firearms (No touch attack, decent range) and just letting the Gunslinger's Deadeye allow you a touch attack.
That's how I'll be running it, anyway.
-The Beast
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I'm still okay with the gunslinger the only one able to do touch ac damage. and besides most of the players who would wield a gun effectively would be a gunslinger. Those who are not would just have spent money on an expensive and violate weapon that after a bit would literally become broken and unusable. And for those players who would multi-class would loose out on better abilites and attributes of their other classes. To me to multi-class just for the use of a gun, and touch ac would be utterly useless as most races can only have one favored class, and other classes have far better and more reliable forms of damage and abilites that off set the fact I can attack touch AC. to me the whole ideal to multi-class just for it would be absurd, its like mulit-classing into the monk class just so I can get improved unarmed strike for free, or the rogue for trapfinding. I have no problem with the way guns are as their range and misfire rates make them inferior to other weapons, and that you require feats, and unstable alchemical cartridges just to make your full attack action! all in all I find it balanced because of the multitude of problems you have with the weapon and the fact the weapon in the hands of even its primary user is still unpredictable and requires allot of feat devotion and grit usage just to keep the weapon from exploding, when in the hands of a non-gunslinger these are multiplied. And for those who bring up the advanced firearms those are game breakers and should be excluded as I will agree with you that they would be worth it but from all i have heard from the designers that they would be akin to artifacts and should be treated as such
It's no more complicated than anything else being suggested.No harder than tracking the +1 from MW weapons.
My AP2 revolver ignores 2 points of armor bonus. Is it that hard?
Each gun type would have a set amount of AP, only to be raised with magic enhancement.
Much more refined than just ignoring all armor, which makes no sense.
Actually it is harder because you have to check each target to see if it has any AC from a source that is bypassed by AP.
It's a conditional bonus rather than constant.
Why not just give a flat bonus to hit? Just limit it to the first range increment like the touch AC currently is.
I may be more tolerant of fiddliness, but how is this hard? Armor bonus, natural armor bonus, shield bonus. That's it. I am unconvinced that this is going to slow the game down.
I wasn't too thrilled with Touch AC all the time, so in my revamp of the gunslinger, I changed the gun rules and gave them a simple armor-piercing mechanic.
Firearms penetrate up to X points of Armor/Natural Armor, ignoring this amount of bonus to AC. For every range increment beyond the first the firearm loses 2 points of armor penetration. Pretty easy to keep track of, moderately realistic, and still give firearms some edge, as their pathetic damage and reloads time should make all but the sickliest 1/2 level commoner goblin laugh when presented in combat.
currently I'm using 10 points of armor penetration in my games, but that may change (I'm thinking 6, but then that might be too low and limit their effectiveness even more)
Honestly... pick your era and your weapon, and some weapon at some point was capable of punching through armor, while armor at some point was capable of shrugging off a weapon's attack.
Chain armor? Thinner pointed arrows are made that can "tear" through the links.
Plate armor? A flatter broader head and suddenly you find records of platemail wearing knights being pinned to their horses from arrows.
Early arquebus shots fired at low velocity? Plated armor is only dented.
Muskets punching through your plate? Time to make that 40+lbs of metal (breastplate only!) to get to the point of "bullet proof".
Considering how often arrows themselves were capable of punching through armor, I'd have to say that we need to simply sit down and pick what "Era" of bullet we want in the game.
Golarion has picked bullets that can punch through conventional armor. This will likely then be simultaneously devastating towards creatures skin (considering plate mail is punched through, a dragon's scales aren't going to fare much better).
Magical enhancements to this only really enhance the armor itself. True force armor should likely still count, *shrug*. I'd rather not have to create another AC stat to track though.
Since we are looking at bullets fired from a smokeless powder, and has the potential to blow apart a metal gun, we can only assume that this is some VERY powerful stuff.
Combined with a "negligible weight" bullet, that still deals as much damage as it does, we are looking at potentially current era grade kinetic force.
Shoot a .50 or 12.95mm bullet at period plate armor, and you'll be looking at what Golarian guns seem to be about.
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Personally, I think Touch AC is a can of worms, and would prefer "weaker" kinetic force, and just have a decent starting damage or some kind of scary crit (like the falcata scares some folks).
But, since guns aren't changing, I'm going to go with the idea of creating "bullet proofed" conditions.
For armor, increase the weight by +25% or something like that. Costs extra, and it has to be built like this originally (can't add it on later). Prevents the Touch AC factor of being shot.
Then maybe toss a "bullet proof" spell out there, and an Ex ability for certain creatures that it just seems "right" (possibly automatic for anything with 15 or higher natural armor bonus? 9 full plate + 5 enhancement = 14 armor AC at the max end of armor being bypassed by a gun).
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I once thought the Flat Footed made some sense.. but honestly, you have just as much chance to dodge an arrow at that distance anyways. After a certain point, the reaction time a human has and the speed at which he can move his body is just not going to handle it.
Mythbusters had an episode about catching an arrow... and it took "beyond human capability" for the hand to physically move to close in time to catch an arrow (the arrow literally passed through the hand so fast that you either closed too early and your hand got poked, or it passes right through and you close on air).
My thoughts: If an arrow has that hard a time being "dodged" (as in, seeing the shot fired and moving in time), then I'm not going to make guns any different than arrows in that regard.
Dodging has to be more than seeing the attack and reacting, so therefore it applies equally to bullets as they do arrows: they both go past the threshold of acceptable reaction speed. Likely more about moving in a "hard to hit" fashion.
Molotov "Serpentine! Serpentine!"
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I found the whole Touch AC thing REALLY odd. I get to attack a lower AC like a mage but have a fighter's attack bonus?? This is stupid. Why "invent" piercing for guns, when no other weapon has any special mechanic to bypass armor? Just give it a higher crit range and be done with it already! No other projectile (which WOULD be able to pierce armors!) gets to attack touch, why should guns be any different?
Unless you're going to introduce "armor piercing" ranges to all weapons, or reflect it in some way for ALL attacks, don't single out one. Any weapon can find a chink in armor somewhere, or break through it, or cause damage anyway. You know what that is? We call it a HIT in my group!
Yep. We haven't seen the end of this. I find it not only game breaking / system breaking / inconsistent with existing rules. I find it somewhat depressing. What's the fun in playing a guy that always hit except on a 1? What's next? character classes summed up with one column: DPR (damage per round) per level? no rolls necessary! when it's your turn, just apply the listed damage for your level!
Yep. We haven't seen the end of this. I find it not only game breaking / system breaking / inconsistent with existing rules. I find it somewhat depressing. What's the fun in playing a guy that always hit except on a 1? What's next? character classes summed up with one column: DPR (damage per round) per level? no rolls necessary! when it's your turn, just apply the listed damage for your level!I found the whole Touch AC thing REALLY odd. I get to attack a lower AC like a mage but have a fighter's attack bonus?? This is stupid. Why "invent" piercing for guns, when no other weapon has any special mechanic to bypass armor? Just give it a higher crit range and be done with it already! No other projectile (which WOULD be able to pierce armors!) gets to attack touch, why should guns be any different?
Unless you're going to introduce "armor piercing" ranges to all weapons, or reflect it in some way for ALL attacks, don't single out one. Any weapon can find a chink in armor somewhere, or break through it, or cause damage anyway. You know what that is? We call it a HIT in my group!
Exactly why I don't like it either. I mean a wizard can do it but he uses magic and is heavily limited in his ability to do it.
Personally, I've always prefered just making firearms a reskinned crossbow with big advantages. (Increased crit ability, range and damage.) instead of doing those rules where they try to simulate realworld physics in a game where people can be strong enough to throw houses at people.
Serious if a bullet is suppose to do something like this, then why isn't there something similar for a guy with over 40 str?
Heck, I've made a character before who could travel 200 feet in 6 second just hustling (double move) with a run feat he could move at 500 feet per 6 seconds. And I haven't even given him haste yet.
Now imagine if this same man was given haste and was capable of using a sling while running with his 40 str. How fast would that sling pellet be thrown?
WAIT! WAIT!
This thread is moving really fast in a weird direction!
You are way too focused on how bullets behave in real life. :-)
Magic Armor cannot be damaged in any way by an attack that does not match it's magical bonus. - So how does a non-magical gun get to roll vs. my Touch AC when I am wearing a +1 Full Plate? (Facegrill down)
All arguments about "blunt trauma" is fail, as this is plenty effective vs. a giant pummeling on me.
Having guns ignore armor is plain crazy. It does boost the relative value of Bracers of Armor and Mage Armor and Shield, but still, what were they thinking!
Even if the guns fire vs. a target in non-magical armor, there are plenty of examples of bullets being lowered in power or deflected by all sorts of normal clothing. Let along leather or metal armor with padding.
Adding magic to the mix and it is completely implausible to run guns vs. Touch Ac.
Flatfooted, yes, MAYBE. Even if you can't dodge a bullet, you can see the guy swinging his arm towards you and dodge THAT. You do not dodge the bullet, you dodge based on the visible intent of the shooter.
In shot, bullets should go vs. normal AC in my opinion. If they really MUST be given some armor penetration, do it as an equipment bonus to hit as has already been suggested above.
Guns should be treated like any other ranged weapon and not be touch when close, there's more power in an arrow fired from a lonbow than a bullet from a musket so why they would make a early era gun ignore armour is beyond me, the increased damage dice being higher represents the difference between a gun and other ranged weapons just fine. Alternatly add touch to all ranged weapons at close range beacuse the finest fullplate won't provide must protection from a point-blank longbow.
Guns should be treated like any other ranged weapon and not be touch when close, there's more power in an arrow fired from a lonbow than a bullet from a musket so why they would make a early era gun ignore armour is beyond me, the increased damage dice being higher represents the difference between a gun and other ranged weapons just fine. Alternatly add touch to all ranged weapons at close range beacuse the finest fullplate won't provide must protection from a point-blank longbow.
What about a dwarven made adamantine hand crossbow? The most powerful hand crossbow known to man, dwarf.. and elves, it can blow your head clean off your body. So you gotta ask yourself one question.. do you feel lucky?
Wonder if they are going to come out with a new type of armor bullet proof subtype
+1 Mithril Bullet proof Half-plate
Adds your Armor bouns against guns
*Edit
Or even have something as ridiculous as armor shaped to deflect bullets
WAIT! WAIT!
This thread is moving really fast in a weird direction!
You are way too focused on how bullets behave in real life. :-)
Magic Armor cannot be damaged in any way by an attack that does not match it's magical bonus. - So how does a non-magical gun get to roll vs. my Touch AC when I am wearing a +1 Full Plate? (Facegrill down)
All arguments about "blunt trauma" is fail, as this is plenty effective vs. a giant pummeling on me.
Having guns ignore armor is plain crazy. It does boost the relative value of Bracers of Armor and Mage Armor and Shield, but still, what were they thinking!
Even if the guns fire vs. a target in non-magical armor, there are plenty of examples of bullets being lowered in power or deflected by all sorts of normal clothing. Let along leather or metal armor with padding.
Adding magic to the mix and it is completely implausible to run guns vs. Touch Ac.
Flatfooted, yes, MAYBE. Even if you can't dodge a bullet, you can see the guy swinging his arm towards you and dodge THAT. You do not dodge the bullet, you dodge based on the visible intent of the shooter.
In shot, bullets should go vs. normal AC in my opinion. If they really MUST be given some armor penetration, do it as an equipment bonus to hit as has already been suggested above.
+1 The more I think about it, the less armor penetration makes sense within the larger system. If they want to make guns slightly better than other ranged weapons, giving them a significant crit bonus, and more range increments, that seems like a decent way to go about it.
Didja know that we have equipment/feats that modify ac/ab under specific situations?
Like this one sword that gains a bonus to hit if the person is wearing a shield..