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When you miss a guy in armor just because you didn't 'hit' his AC that doesn't mean you completely missed making contact with him its just that his armor deflected the blow, now if you didn't even hit his touch AC then yeah you just completely missed. With guns its like he's not even wearing that wonderful armor that deflects magic swords and arrow but can't stop a little lead ball. At all.Armor Class from the PH I
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you.So not necessarily. You might just miss because you swung too wide, or shot too wide, or he jumped, or a million other fluff effects.
Why you missed is fluff, not hard ruled, laid down law.
No, technically, if I hit the targets touch AC then it still touched him but was turned aside by his Armor since I didn't hit his actual AC provided by said armor. Example shot an arrow at the dragon, hit AC 15. Dragons AC is 25 (touch 8) so the arrow hits the dragon and bounces off his armored hide. Yeah its fluff, but its crunchy fluff. :)
When you miss a guy in armor just because you didn't 'hit' his AC that doesn't mean you completely missed making contact with him its just that his armor deflected the blow, now if you didn't even hit his touch AC then yeah you just completely missed. With guns its like he's not even wearing that wonderful armor that deflects magic swords and arrow but can't stop a little lead ball. At all.
I'll also point this out... Armor Classes and the Hit Points those ACs are protecting are *all* abstractions.
If you have 50 hit points and you get hit for 6 times for 9 damage each hit, you go to the following HP: 41, 32, 23, 14, 5, -4. A 'hit' at full hit points shouldn't represent getting 'hit' by the weapon. A miss means that nothing happened. You can describe those hits as 'near misses', 'scratches', etc... until you get to the one that drops you to -4, and then that's the one that perforates your spleen or slices open your femoral artery or what have you.
Because of the abstractions inherent in D&D combat, you can lose HP without actually getting 'hit'. Since there are no rules for describing wounding strikes, it's silly to get caught up in the details. Either you can justify the mechanics or not. Trying to model the effects of guns vs bows vs swords vs spells based on 'the reality of ancient weapons' is something that is going to have significant issues... NO weapons or armor in D&D are realistic.
what if guns target touch ac for target wearing regular armor, but as for magical effects and magical armor it doesnt allow the attacker to target touch ac (or use the grit ability to target it either)?
just brain storming here. lets quit fighting about it and maybe present some ways in which we can make this work, since we wouldnt be throwing insults at each other if we didnt want this class to succeed in the long run. anybody else got some good ideas about how we can adjust some of these things? and no, "make it like regular range weapons" isnt valid, since the developers want guns to be something different. :)
It doesn't matter what we discuss here or anywhere for the sake of the developers when it comes to guns because the gun rules are already set -- they aren't going to change.
It isn't happening, they are here to stay in their current form, and they are what we are going to deal with if you abide by what paizo is giving you --if you are willing to use 3pp, or simply houserule/ use the older material fine but the rules that paizo is going to use from here on out for guns are those we have been presented with.
It wouldn't be spending thousands of gold, guns don't really cost that much. The prices in the playtest are inflated due to 'rarity' in actuallity someone (likely Katapesh or Qadira) would begin making guns and selling them for much less since a warrior with a rifle is superior to a warrior with a bow or crossbow. The touch mechanic ensures this and guns would overwhelm Golarion in short order.
Ok lets see, who else gets touch attacks?
Spellcasters? Theirs are limited by the number of spells they get per day. The guy with a gun can make potentially unlimited touch attacks. So that seems a little one sided to me.Who else gets full BAB and gets ranged touch attacks like this?
I'm not trying to be offensive here, this just doesn't make sense to me and even with the (perceived) low damage, the higher hit rate seems like it would compensate for that easily.
Ok, I'm risking foot-in-mouth here, because I'm not sure about current prices in round 2. But 15 1st level warriors with pistols/muskets (1,000 gp each) can make unlimited shots at touch AC for 11 gp per shot. Each of them shooting 10 times would cost 16,650 gp to outfit them with guns, shot, and powder. They shoot 150 times, and out of those shots, there will be several misfires.
Alternately, you get 15 1st level adepts, each with a partially charged (10 charges) wand of scorching ray for 900 gp each that hit vs touch AC for 4d6 each.
Or 15 1st level Wizards, each with a fully charged wand of Magic Missile that auto-hit for 1d4+1, no roll required for 750gp each.
I fail to see how these situations are significantly different. If you're willing to spend a pile of gold on a 1st level NPC to give them an effective attack, you can do it already.
The problem is you are not looking at it from a fantasy role playing perspective you are viewing it from the position of a POWER GAMER, there are times when realism will take the back door for something fun and unusual.
As long as the "numbers" keep in line with out blowing game balance then it can be done. This is where you are having the problem.
Does the feature allow the "Gunslinger" to out damage every one? Answer: No this has been proved over and over Fighters do more damage than gunslingers which is how it should be.
Against Evil Outsiders a Paladin does more damage than the gunslinger check, using his spells, animal companion, and other abilities even a Ranger can do equal to better check. Gunslinger fits it does a good job against armored foes not so good against dodge monkeys. Hell even a Sorcerer or Wizard can do better with touch based spells.
Again this all balances out.
Also since these rules are optional they don't have to be used. Me I'm allowing paper cartridges but not metal ones advanced fire arms will not be used in my campaign world because I chose a tech level that does not support them. The Gunslinger and Gun Mage will still have a home in my game though. I was and still am hoping for a Gun using Magus archetype.
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I would hope so, If the Gunslinger class could spend grit to make touch attacks that would be fine, but guns in the hands of anyone on the planet and touch attacks is just wrong. And something that I'm frankly shocked to see from Paizo as all of their stuff up until this has been very well designed.We get it. You think guns are dumb. What do you want?
A rewrite of a published book? Not happening. We your complaints. I might as well moan about the moon not being green. Its not going to matter.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
You mean like the re-write of the firearms rules from the original campaign setting?
There is this thing called Errata.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources
There are three separate ones for core.
I don't think baby needs to be thrown out with the bath water. But some nerfs on other class use need to be added.
It seems counter-intuitive, since the development of plate armor was to actually counteract guns, that full plate offers no protection from them.
where do you get the idea that plate armor was developed to counteract guns?
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It seems counter-intuitive, since the development of plate armor was to actually counteract guns, that full plate offers no protection from them.where do you get the idea that plate armor was developed to counteract guns?
Quite the opposite is true actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour
"It was only the development of powerful rifled firearms which made all but the finest and heaviest armour obsolete. The increasing power and availability of firearms and the nature of large, state-supported infantry led to more portions of plate armour being cast off in favour of cheaper, more mobile troops."
The slow fire rate of guns led to mobility being valued.
@Relmwalker: Not once has overdark said that Gunslingers will overpower all other characters. The entire point of his tirades is that in terms of weapons, the gun is supreme. I think better examples of why guns are, in his and my own mind, overpowered is by comparing a gun using Fighter with a bow using one.
ciretose, the developers have been pretty adamant that the gun rules aren't changing. Even if you gave unassailable proof that they're more useful than casting Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, and then Gate to bring in some massively high HD demon, I'm betting at this point they still wouldn't include any errata to address the issue.*
Now for some less passionate comments that I hope are not offensive to anyone and are at least somewhat on-topic.
In overdark's example, nobody said these NPC's owned their equipment. I think a reasonable assumption is that they are soldiers in an army & their sponsors and commanders have done the sensible thing and given them the (relatively) best equipment & training available that they could use in the situation. (considering it's a relatively large group of NPC's, I don't think this explanation is too "out there". Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Now, yes he's expecting folks to read between the lines too much and to think like he does regarding the situation. I agree that he would benefit greatly from posting the minutia of the scenario, but I don't think it's right to simply disregard the point he is trying to make just because a part of the community doesn't agree with said point.
*Yes, I know this is a complete and utter overstatement. I felt a certain level of facetiousness was necessary to get this point across.
The point is GUNS are not supreme even in the hands of a class that uses them best they still fall way behind. Being able to hit a T-Rex at level 1 with the pistol will have no better results as a fighter at level 1 hitting the same t-rex both level 1's get killed. Higher up in levels the fighter pulls ahead of the GUNSLINGER in DPR if the gun was supreme then the GUNSLINGER who is (arguably)the best with said weapons should own every single fight he is in, he doesn't.
I have only one question: if guns are so unreasonable, do we need to ban wands of magic missile as well?
Fifteen 1st level warriors vs. a T-Rex actually fare a lot less well than fiften 1st level adepts armed with wands of magic missile.
Guns attack touch AC at close range.
Magic missiles attack touch AC at any range.
Guns might blow up.
Wand wielders without the spell on their class list might fail a UMD check.
Guns are more expensive than regular weapons.
Wands are more expensive than regular weapons.
Advanced firearms might be included, which increase RoF.
Wands with a higher CL might be included, which increase RoF.
---
In order to demonstrate that firearms as presented are unbalanced, by necessity you equally demonstrate that the magic rules in the core game are even more unbalanced. Therefore, should we scrap the whole game and start over?
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I have only one question: if guns are so unreasonable, do we need to ban wands of magic missile as well?
Fifteen 1st level warriors vs. a T-Rex actually fare a lot less well than fiften 1st level adepts armed with wands of magic missile.
Guns attack touch AC at close range.
Magic missiles attack touch AC at any range.Guns might blow up.
Wand wielders without the spell on their class list might fail a UMD check.Guns are more expensive than regular weapons.
Wands are more expensive than regular weapons.Advanced firearms might be included, which increase RoF.
Wands with a higher CL might be included, which increase RoF.(etc.)
Kirth, me and TOZ kinda tried to go down this route, before we realized that we're facing a CoDzilla level of reality denial.
Kirth, me and TOZ kinda tried to go down this route, before we realized that we're facing a CoDzilla level of reality denial.
I guess the difference between posters is that CoDzilla, for the most part, knew (or at least could parrot) how the math of the game worked out -- so his points were grounded in numbers rather than in pure emotion.
But I'll be the first to admit that if TOZ failed with this approach, there's no way I can possibly make any headway with it -- so given that information I agree my post is misplaced. Thanks for the heads-up.
I'm sorely tempted to actually develop a playtest of this encounter. I just don't know how the warriors would be built. :P
I have only one question: if guns are so unreasonable, do we need to ban wands of magic missile as well?
Fifteen 1st level warriors vs. a T-Rex actually fare a lot less well than fiften 1st level adepts armed with wands of magic missile.
Guns attack touch AC at close range.
Magic missiles attack touch AC at any range.Guns might blow up.
Wand wielders without the spell on their class list might fail a UMD check.Guns are more expensive than regular weapons.
Wands are more expensive than regular weapons.Advanced firearms might be included, which increase RoF.
Wands with a higher CL might be included, which increase RoF.---
In order to demonstrate that firearms as presented are unbalanced, by necessity you equally demonstrate that the magic rules in the core game are even more unbalanced. Therefore, should we scrap the whole game and start over?
<devil's advocate>
Wands are magical, guns are not. Guns can be mass-produced; presumably wands cannot.I've also always believed the "spell activation items for any spell on your class list" to be extremely questionable, balance-wise.
Besides, aren't you essentially trying to refute the argument that guns are dangerous by pointing out that knives are also dangerous? :P
</devil's advocate>
Kirth, me and TOZ kinda tried to go down this route, before we realized that we're facing a CoDzilla level of reality denial.I guess the difference between posters is that CoDzilla, for the most part, knew (or at least could parrot) how the math of the game worked out -- so his points were grounded in numbers rather than in pure emotion.
But I'll be the first to admit that if TOZ failed with this approach, there's no way I can possibly make any headway with it -- so given that information I agree my post is misplaced. Thanks for the heads-up.
I hold up as ultimate proof that cannot be denied that guns are not broken the following:
Kirth, Myself, Gorbacz, and TMZ all agree on this point.
If the four of us can agree on this point it must be the ultimate truth of the situation.
.
..
...
....
.....
Posting in epic 'Ultimate Team Up' thread.
o-o
My great great grand spawn will tell stories of this day...
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I have only one question: if guns are so unreasonable, do we need to ban wands of magic missile as well?
Fifteen 1st level warriors vs. a T-Rex actually fare a lot less well than fiften 1st level adepts armed with wands of magic missile.
Guns attack touch AC at close range.
Magic missiles attack touch AC at any range.Guns might blow up.
Wand wielders without the spell on their class list might fail a UMD check.Guns are more expensive than regular weapons.
Wands are more expensive than regular weapons.Advanced firearms might be included, which increase RoF.
Wands with a higher CL might be included, which increase RoF.---
In order to demonstrate that firearms as presented are unbalanced, by necessity you equally demonstrate that the magic rules in the core game are even more unbalanced. Therefore, should we scrap the whole game and start over?
Magic missiles do far less damage per hit. There is a whole other thread about a feat that allows sneak attack damage to apply to damage spells and how that may relate to each magic missile.
My position isn't overdark's. You can have guns be touch attack weapons with the rules as written IF.
1. You add something saying the touch attack doesn't apply to precision damage or class features in the same way it doesn't apply to deadly aim.
2. Being able to reload as a free action is gunslinger exclusive.
Both can be taken care of without to much fuss. And you can make advanced firearms gunslinger exclusive, since they aren't anywhere yet, and that would fix problems on both ends (gunslinger being kind of weak, guns in the hands of non-gunslingers being overpowered)
Frankly, the gunslinger's problem isn't being overpowered, but rather being clunky with too many moving parts.
If you put the two things in above, and make more features inherent in the class rather than grit based, it could all work great. Touch attack isn't overpowered if it's a single attack per round with a weapon so expensive you can't really afford it until you are ready to make multiple attacks.
Hell, I would give the gunslinger access to more damage exploding dice as a feature just because it's so damn fun at the table when it happens.
The gunslinger is fine. Guns could be fine. It is needing clean up how they interact with the existing world that is the problem.
Well, I used 20 pt. buy to stat out a generic gunman to throw at the Rex en masse. I only included the imperative information; technically, it should be impossible for a level 1 NPC to afford a musket, but their possession of it can be marked off as circumstance.
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5
hp 7 (1d10+2)
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (armor +4, +5 Dex)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +0
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Ranged – musket +7 (1d12/x4)
Feats – exotic weapon proficiency (firearms), weapon focus (musket)
Skills – Acrobatics +4 (after AC penalty)
Gear - musket, chain shirt
Anybody see any problems with the stats? I kinda just pulled them out of my head.
I think the only way to really settle the issue (asides from majority rule) is to theorycraft the heck out of it.
So taker 10 of them and playtest it, see if you can take out a t-rex?
First attempt at a playtest, but I suppose I have to start somehwere. Here we have it - 10 level 1 warriors vs. a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex. First of course, is the fluffy backstory.
In the midst of a civil war, the Duke Ambros receives terrifying news of an immense, vicious beast that emerged from the deep forests in the west, utterly devastating a settlement close to its borders. Ambros' scouts report that the beast is heading straight towards the capital, raising suspicions of foul play.
However, there is a dilemma - the vast majority of the Duke's men are fighting in the North, holding the line against his rival's merciless soldiers. Gambling that the opposing territory was a bigger threat than the monster, Ambros scrounges up a crack team of inexperienced soldiers, has them geared with the most powerful weaponry affordable, and sends them off to slay the monster, or at the very least, to drive it off.
The small troop of ten soldiers marches west for several hours, before reaching a town that has been all but completely ravaged. A massive roar not far away alerts them to the monster's presence.
The soldiers quickly arm themselves and move into a row so that they may all have a clear shot at the beast. They get into positions just in time for the towering beast to step around the wreckage of an old temple no more than 100 ft. away, where it then spots them. The gunmen win initiative (25=20+5 vs. the Rex's 17=12+5), and immediately take aim at the distant Rex.
Letting out another roar, the Tyrannosaur runs towards the gunmen, all too glad to have more food laid before it. The beast has no idea what lies in store for it when it enters the space 40 ft. from the 10 soldiers. Each soldier's readied attack is triggered:
Gunman 1 = 13 (6+7) Damage: 3 (1d12)
Gunman 2 = 22 (15+7) Damage: 3 (1d12)
Gunman 3 = 18 (11+7) Damage: 4 (1d12)
Gunman 4 = 15 (8+7) Damage: 6 (1d12)
Gunman 5 = 26 (19+7) Damage: 12 (1d12)
Gunman 6 = 15 (8+7) Damage: 5 (1d12)
Gunman 7 = 15 (8+7) Damage: 5 (1d12)
Gunman 8 = 21 (14+7) Damage: 8 (1d12)
Gunman 9 = 23 (16+7) Damage: 6 (1d12)
Gunman 10 = 13 (6+7) Damage: 5 (1d12)
Every single shot penetrates the beast's thick, scaly hide, injuring the dinosaur (96 hp remaining). Despite this, the enraged beast continues its advance, stopping just 20 ft. away from the soldiers - putting soldiers 2 thru 9 in its threatened range.
The gunmen now face a problem - their weapons' single shot has been expended, and they are now all face to face with what is quite possibly the biggest lizard they have ever seen (and it is). Desperately needing time to reload their muskets, each warrior takes a five-foot step backwards and a full-round action to reload. Luckily for them, they avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. Not so fortunately, it is now the Rex's turn.
The Tyrannosaur moves forward fifteen feet (putting every soldier in its threatened squares, 10 feet away) and scoops its head down, attempting to snatch up Gunman 8.
Tyrannosaur = 40 (20+20); Confirmation: 34 (14+20); Damage: 65 (8d6+44)
The poor soldier never stood a chance. The damage is easily enough to kill him almost ten times over. He screams in terror as the Rex lands its crit, scooping him up in its jaws and shaking him vigorously, before biting him in half.
Seeing their comrade torn apart, the soldiers realize that they have likely made a grave tactical error. Despite this, they resolve to hold fast, confident that there was no escape from the monster.
Despite standing in its threatened squares, the soldiers take aim and fire. The Rex takes this opportunity to take a bite at Gunman 9, unsatisfied by its previous kill.
Tyrannosaur = 26 (6+20); Damage: 29 (4d6+22)
The attack modifier alone is enough land the Rex the hit. Before he can even pull the trigger, the dinosaur bites off his upper torso, killing him right off the bat. Nonetheless, the eight remaining soldiers open fire.
Gunman 1 = 10 (3+7) Damage: 11 (1d12)
Gunman 2 = 18 (11+7) Damage: 9 (1d12)
Gunman 3 = 1; Misfire --> broken
Gunman 4 = 23 (16+7) Damage: 12 (1d12)
Gunman 5 = 10 (3+7) Damage: 8 (1d12)
Gunman 6 = 10 (3+7) Damage: 12 (1d12)
Gunman 7 = 14 (7+7) Damage: 7 (1d12)
Gunman 10 = 18 (11+7) Damage: 11 (1d12)
Most of the Gunmen hit their mark against the Tyrannosaur's Touch AC, inflicting a rather heavy amount of damage. One soldier is not so lucky - his firearm misfires, By now the dinosaur is heavily injured, covered in holes (26 hp remaining). However, this only serves to feed its bestial anger. This time it directs its attack at Gunman 10:
Tyrannosaur = 31 (11+20) Damage: 31 (4d6+22)
Number 10 meets a similar fate as his comrades, being torn asunder by the Rex's jowls, filled with foot-long, razor-sharp teeth. Now, seven of the ten remain, and unfortunately for them, they must reload once more.
The soldiers all have no choice but to reload their single-shot muskets, but unfortunately, stepping back at this point would do nothing to save them. As they all reload with a full-round action, the Rex randomly gnashes out at Gunman 3:
Tyrannosaur = 27 (7+20) Damage: 38 (4d6+22)
Before he can even pour the black powder needed to fire the weapon, the dinosaur bites off his head with surprising swiftness, causing his body to drop to the ground, limp. The others manage to finish reloading, but the Rex uses its own attack action on Gunman 1:
Tyrannosaur = 30 (10+30) Damage: 30 (4d6[8]+22)
To no surprise, Gunman 1 meets his doom as well. And then there were 5...
Their guns now locked and loaded, the soldiers take aim, each certain that they were going to meet a certain death. Nonetheless, the blood that poured out of the beast's wounds inspired a certain confidence in them - "if it bleeds, we can kill it." They all pull the trigger, provoking yet another attack of opportunity from the Rex; Gunman 6 is the unlucky recipient this time.
Tyrannosaur = 39 (19+20); Confirm: 26 (4+20); Damage: 74 (8d6+44)
The damage is nothing less than catastrophic - the soldier never gets the chance to pull the trigger.
Gunman 4 = 13 (6+7) Damage: 9 (1d12)
Gunman 5 = 19 (12+7) Damage: 4 (1d12)
Gunman 6 = 15 (8+7) Damage: 8 (1d12)
Gunman 7 = 16 (9+7) Damage: 2 (1d12)
Again, each hit lands, but with half the group dead, the damage does not quite stack up enough to fell the beast. To be so close, yet so far (2 hp remaining)...
Again, the soldiers must reload, something that they are not at all thrilled about. This time, Gunman 7 provokes.
Tyrannosaur = 32 (12+20) Damage: 32 (10+22)
Inevitably, the Gunman is slain, leaving a mere three left. However, this is not true for long, as the Rex immediately snaps in for a bite at 5.
Tyrannosaur = 35 (15+20) Damage: 32 (10+22)
As expected, he is killed with one blow.
This is the moment of truth; the last two gunmen take aim at fire, but ever vigilant, the Rex decides to attack 6 in response.
Tyrannosaurus = 37 (17+20) Damage: 35 (13+22)
Hope seems to dwindle as Gunman 6 is viciously mauled in seconds, leaving only Gunman 4 - if this shot doesn't end it, then his doom was certain.
Gunman 4 = 2 (x) --> Broken
Irony decided to be cruel and fickle, as always. What should have been the decisive shot jammed in the barrel, a cacophonous sound that made the soldier want to cry there on the spot. Standing there and attempting to reload the damaged weapon certainly spelled out death. Dropping the musket, the soldier moved as fast as he could in the opposite direction (30 ft.), already aware that his effort was futile.
The Rex proceeds to follow Gunman 4, closing the 40 foot distance and attacking the panicked soldier.
Tyrannosaur = 38 (18+20) Damage: 37 (15+22)
The T-Rex silences the screaming man with a single bite, and then swallows his corpse. The dinosaur lets out a roar of triumph, but intelligent enough to know that its wounds are severe, the beast then returns to the forests from whence it came.
T-REX FINAL HP: 2
It really seems as though this fight could have gone both ways. I set it up in an extremely direct manner - environmental factors could have aided either party greatly, and separating the gunmen from one another would have given the Rex a harder time. This was more or less a test of which side could out-damage the other. Nonetheless, they gave it a run for its money. Their ability to hit the Rex's Touch AC acted as their crutch, but that same strength locked them within its threatened squares. I considered making them simply move back before shooting, but with that considered, Rex could have simply walked up to them next turn and killed them nonetheless; he barely had to move throughout the test.
While the test wasn't very comprehensive, the feat tax guns have is evident. Even with proficiency, the time it took to reload the guns ended up being the main issue - Rapid Reload would have been a better feat investment than Weapon Focus.
Even if Gunman 4's shot had hit the Rex in Round 7, its Endurance and Diehard feats would have just activated, giving it the next round to kill him. Either way however, 10 of these guys got awfully close to victory. I'd estimate that the 15 originally suggested by the OP could get the job done, albeit with heavy casualties.
Well, I used 20 pt. buy to stat out a generic gunman to throw at the Rex en masse. I only included the imperative information; technically, it should be impossible for a level 1 NPC to afford a musket, but their possession of it can be marked off as circumstance.
** spoiler omitted **
Anybody see any problems with the stats? I kinda just pulled them out of my head.
I think the only way to really settle the issue (asides from majority rule) is to theorycraft the heck out of it.
My only issue is that generic NPC's (i.e. Warriors) should use the default stat array. I do not think they would be min maxed so much.
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A couple of pointers here involving guns.
Lots of other games take the "guns work better against armor" approach. Unisystem (all flesh must be eaten) treat archaic armor as only half as effective against firearms. It has to do with the directed high velocity impact of a firearm round.
As far as the "wand of magic missile vs. firearm" debate, it's a valid point. A wand of Magic Missile and a Revolver (best example of what the OP thinks would be "broken") both cost 750g, both would only require 1 day of work to create, depending on the crafter n' such, and both can, in theory, be used by anyone, with the appropriate feats/skills n such. Where they differ is the few key points of accuracy, damage and drawbacks.
Guns hit touch ac (which is easy, but not assured), deal greater damage with chance for crit (d8 in the case of the revolver,) and can explode (in the case of archaic firearms.)
Wands of Magic Missile do less damage and can't crit, but ALWAYS hit, and no save. The range is much longer than a gun's touch range, by about 10 feat for max touch range, though I'm assuming the gun will try to be in the first range increment, since the penalty for multiple increments will be detrimental. Take that into consideration, you have about 70-90 feet in benefit for the want. The downside is that the chance for failure with casting is much higher from the skill check. Finally, the ammo concern. With a revolver, it's a reload every 6 attacks, hit or miss, which isn't too bad, but if your a bunch of 1st levels fighting a t-rex you won't want to waste a turn reloading. Beyond that, you have as much ammo as you have bought. The wand however may have 50 max shots, but no reload after so many attacks.
Both have pros and cons, overall I don't think guns are pretty evenly balanced. The argument is that guns would make a game unbalanced, and that a group of 1st level "alkenstar" warriors would be able to drop a t-rex. Realistically speaking, this is true, but that's also because Alkenstar has access to guns. Any society that gains access to advanced firearms begins dominating the wildlife around them.
And as many have said here, if you don't like them, don't allow them, or keep them out of player hands. Even then, not everyone is going for the guns, the mechanics is only half of the game, the other half is role playing. Not everyone is going to grab a gun because it's a ranged touch longsword.
That's true. I definitely considered using the standard array, but the 10 (or was it 15?) pt. buy just felt far too weak. If anything, the Gunmen's to-hit would have taken a dive, and even with a higher Con, if the hp wasn't over 23 at least, it would have been meaningless. Nonetheless, those choices might have skewed my results a little.
Not that it mattered to the Rex much - their AC was inconsequential to him anyway, and the to-hit vs. Touch AC was relatively high anyway.
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A couple of pointers here involving guns.
Lots of other games take the "guns work better against armor" approach. Unisystem (all flesh must be eaten) treat archaic armor as only half as effective against firearms. It has to do with the directed high velocity impact of a firearm round.
As far as the "wand of magic missile vs. firearm" debate, it's a valid point. A wand of Magic Missile and a Revolver (best example of what the OP thinks would be "broken") both cost 750g, both would only require 1 day of work to create, depending on the crafter n' such, and both can, in theory, be used by anyone, with the appropriate feats/skills n such. Where they differ is the few key points of accuracy, damage and drawbacks.
Guns hit touch ac (which is easy, but not assured), deal greater damage with chance for crit (d8 in the case of the revolver,) and can explode (in the case of archaic firearms.)
Wands of Magic Missile do less damage and can't crit, but ALWAYS hit, and no save. The range is much longer than a gun's touch range, by about 10 feat for max touch range, though I'm assuming the gun will try to be in the first range increment, since the penalty for multiple increments will be detrimental. Take that into consideration, you have about 70-90 feet in benefit for the want. The downside is that the chance for failure with casting is much higher from the skill check. Finally, the ammo concern. With a revolver, it's a reload every 6 attacks, hit or miss, which isn't too bad, but if your a bunch of 1st levels fighting a t-rex you won't want to waste a turn reloading. Beyond that, you have as much ammo as you have bought. The wand however may have 50 max shots, but no reload after so many attacks.
Both have pros and cons, overall I don't think guns are pretty evenly balanced. The argument is that guns would make a game unbalanced, and that a group of 1st level "alkenstar" warriors would be able to drop a t-rex. Realistically speaking, this is true, but that's also because Alkenstar has...
But again, you can't add enhancements to magic missiles. You can't add sneak attack damage, smite damage, divine bond, inquisitor bane, weapon specialization, etc...to magic missile.
It is actually more of an issue at higher levels by making existing weapons suboptimal to guns when you want to be sure your special ability hits. When you have a rogue who needs a miracle to hit on his last few attacks, and you change it to hitting on anything but a 1, it is a huge change.
Thankfully, it is easily addressed. They were kind of thinking about it by excluding deadly aim, but I think the whole thing has been to "Gunslinger" focused and not thinking about other problem interactions enough.
But again, you can't add enhancements to magic missiles. You can't add sneak attack damage, smite damage, divine bond, inquisitor bane, weapon specialization, etc...to magic missile.
It is actually more of an issue at higher levels by making existing weapons suboptimal to guns when you want to be sure your special ability hits. When you have a rogue who needs a miracle to hit on his last few attacks, and you change it to hitting on anything but a 1, it is a huge change.
Thankfully, it is easily addressed. They were kind of thinking about it by excluding deadly aim, but I think the whole thing has been to "Gunslinger" focused and not thinking about other problem interactions enough.
Look your argument is "guns" at the point it's "guns" it has to be compared to everything else in the game.
So at low levels the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
At late game the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
So all you are left with is mid-game to find a point where the gun is "over powered."
The question is... "Do ya feel lucky punk?"
Well do ya?
1. You add something saying the touch attack doesn't apply to precision damage or class features in the same way it doesn't apply to deadly aim.
I don't understand why you are so up in arms about precision damage. Ranged sneak attacks aren't a terrible viable option in the first place, and I don't see how being a touch attack makes it that much better.
Good Stuff!All I can say is... good stuff!
Thanks!
It has just now occurred to me that I forgot to make the Rex attack in Round 5. XD
Oops.
Good Stuff!All I can say is... good stuff!Thanks!
It has just now occurred to me that I forgot to make the Rex attack in Round 5. XD
Oops.
That's just good table manners. You shouldn't gobble down your food. Take your time and chew properly. It was raised well! ;)
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But again, you can't add enhancements to magic missiles. You can't add sneak attack damage, smite damage, divine bond, inquisitor bane, weapon specialization, etc...to magic missile.
It is actually more of an issue at higher levels by making existing weapons suboptimal to guns when you want to be sure your special ability hits. When you have a rogue who needs a miracle to hit on his last few attacks, and you change it to hitting on anything but a 1, it is a huge change.
Thankfully, it is easily addressed. They were kind of thinking about it by excluding deadly aim, but I think the whole thing has been to "Gunslinger" focused and not thinking about other problem interactions enough.
Look your argument is "guns" at the point it's "guns" it has to be compared to everything else in the game.
So at low levels the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
At late game the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
So all you are left with is mid-game to find a point where the gun is "over powered."
The question is... "Do ya feel lucky punk?"
Well do ya?
Go look at the rogue damage I did in the last thread.
Thr remember that is without any enhamcements to the guns, which would add damage on every attack.
As someone mentioned earlier -- rather than spending 15,000 gp on guns, spend 2,000 gp to give ten vials of alchemist's fire to each warrior. It seems that this would be just as effective.
I'm fairly ambivalent to the shenanigans that are going on in this thread and the thread that spawned it. But for my own self-amusement I looked up a common weight and exit speed of both an arrow and a lead bullet (.338 caliber in a blunderbuss, close enough)
Apparently ammunition is measured in grains (no clue what that translates to). I measure both of these in Kinetic Energy, the unit is Foot Pounds.
The formula is apparently velocity in ft/s * velocity in ft/s * weight in grains / 450240
____ Wgt___ Spd__ KE
Arrow 700___ 220__ 75
Bullet 250___ 882__ 432
Which would mean that in a much more detailed simulation, bullets would have both better penetration and damage dealing capabilities.
But, that's obviously not balanced. So I am guessing the developers decided to keep the penetration, and step down the damage to taste.
A more fair treatment would have been a small boost to both (I started a Penetration Rating thread for guns a while back, never got traction).
Still, this isn't that broken.
Also, for the myriad people saying that people can just house rule things, just remember that PFS players have to suck it up and take whatever the rules say. Perhaps we could ALL use a little more practice inspecting both sides of the argument.
As someone mentioned earlier -- rather than spending 15,000 gp on guns, spend 2,000 gp to give ten vials of alchemist's fire to each warrior. It seems that this would be just as effective.
Or hire 150 warriors and give them crossbows.
People are much cheaper than guns. :)
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But again, you can't add enhancements to magic missiles. You can't add sneak attack damage, smite damage, divine bond, inquisitor bane, weapon specialization, etc...to magic missile.
It is actually more of an issue at higher levels by making existing weapons suboptimal to guns when you want to be sure your special ability hits. When you have a rogue who needs a miracle to hit on his last few attacks, and you change it to hitting on anything but a 1, it is a huge change.
Thankfully, it is easily addressed. They were kind of thinking about it by excluding deadly aim, but I think the whole thing has been to "Gunslinger" focused and not thinking about other problem interactions enough.
Look your argument is "guns" at the point it's "guns" it has to be compared to everything else in the game.
So at low levels the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
At late game the gun doesn't out perform anything else -- this is established.
So all you are left with is mid-game to find a point where the gun is "over powered."
The question is... "Do ya feel lucky punk?"
Well do ya?
At low levels the gun doesn't outperform? Really? A pair of 2nd level fighters each shoot at the same target, for this example we'll go with a the 'Cavalry' NPC from the GMG. AC 23 (touch 12), the fighter with the bow has a (much) lower chance of hitting than the guy with the gun, seems like he's outperformed to me.
Fighter A (Ftr 2) STR 14, DEX 17 Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)MW Comp Longbow +8 (1d8+2 [avg 6.5]) needs a 15 or better to hit (25% hit rate)
with Deadly Aim +7 (1d8+4 [avg 8.5]) needs a 16 or better to hit (20%)
within 30' both chances rise to (30% and 25% respectivly)
Fighter A (Ftr 2) STR 14, DEX 17 Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Pistol)
MW Pistol +8 (1d8 [avg 4.5]) needs a 4 or better to hit (80% hit rate)
with Deadly Aim +7 (1d8+2 [avg 6.5]) needs a 5 or better to hit (75%)
within 30' both chances rise to (85% and 80% respectivly)
So with his 'non-outperforming' gun assuming average rolls (9-11) the guy with the gun hits every time, the guy with the bow never hits. So how does it matter that he deals 2-3 more damage on average when in reality he deals no damage since he doesn't hit.
[Edit] Both FIghters have also selected the Heirloom Weapon Trait, thus gaining a masterwork weapon (at 1st level) and proficiency with that weapon and a +1 to atatcks with that weapon. So yeah the 2nd level guy can have a gun, even by the rules.
You say that this is balanced by the low-damage, mis-fire chance (which advanced firearms dont have), and BTW they dont 'blow up in your face' until the second misfire. Since the playtest rules don't include any info on masterwork guns, I'll just have to assume that being masterwork doesn't affect their misfire chance (but I'm guessing it will).
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As someone mentioned earlier -- rather than spending 15,000 gp on guns, spend 2,000 gp to give ten vials of alchemist's fire to each warrior. It seems that this would be just as effective.
Alchemist Fire/Acid whatever are single use, you can keep firing away with your handy-dandy gun.
@Slaunyeh, Warriors with crossbows just miss the T-Rex. The same exact warriors with guns (non-magic non-anything) start hitting a lot more often due to their +14 effective bonus to attack.
At low levels the gun doesn't outperform? Really? A pair of 2nd level fighters each shoot at the same target, for this example we'll go with a the 'Cavalry' NPC from the GMG. AC 23 (touch 12), the fighter with the bow has a (much) lower chance of hitting than the guy with the gun, seems like he's outperformed to me.
So, what does the difference between the level 2 creature's AC and touch AC have to be before the gun-wielder catches up to the bow-wielder in damage, and how often is that difference exceeded in level-appropriate encounters?
EDIT: also, when making these comparisons, make sure to give the bow-wielder Rapid Shot. In many cases this is a major component of the damage, and advantage over the gun-wielder, and would not be missed
Hyperbole much?
The bow does hit -- 30% of the time. He can also fire two shots in one round with a 25% of the time hit rate, with deadly aim he fires two times at a 15% hit rate.
Fighter B fires 1 time with a +3 bonus with a 25% miss chance.
Heirloom weapon doesn't give you the weapon -- just the masterwork for free. Also it grants you specific proficiency with a weapon not all weapons of that type so you can't take weapon focus for pistol yet.
Even with it you would still have to reload (standard action) meaning the bow is taking 4 shots to your 1.
Think before you type.
Edited for explanations.
At low levels the gun doesn't outperform? Really? A pair of 2nd level fighters each shoot at the same target, for this example we'll go with a the 'Cavalry' NPC from the GMG. AC 23 (touch 12), the fighter with the bow has a (much) lower chance of hitting than the guy with the gun, seems like he's outperformed to me.
Why not go with the Battle Monk from the GMG? AC 19 (touch 18).
My point is, you can always set up a situation that makes one piece of equipment work vastly better than another. Thing is, I've only seen sorely suboptimized fighters run around with a 20% chance to hit anything.
I'm not going to run any numbers because I don't really care enough, but you seem awfully hung up on "can never miss an ancient red dragon." That's not necessarily a good thing. :)
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Look I know their not gonna change. I get it, if you don't have something nice or constructive to say, then please just go away.
If guns are gonna penetrate armor this way, then magic armor or adamatine armor should still mean something, the fact that a simple 1st level commoner can shoot right through a suit of +5 adamantine armor AND the +5 adamantine shield his target has with his non-magical gun is just not balanced. They are easily the best exotic weapon in the game misfires, cost, and damage aside. With the way they work people would put them in much higher demand and the profit-minded people of Golarion would provide them as fast as they could.
No other exotic weapon allows fighters to make ranged touch attacks.
Fighters can't use wands, without a trait, and even then they have to make a skill check (UMD) and then an attack roll either one of which can fail. Two rolls, and then they still only have access to low-level spells.
With the Heirloom Weapon trait they dont even have to take (Exotic WP) they can begin the game with a gun (not a half-broken one either like a gunslinger).
With the Rich Parents trait they can buy a gun at 1st level, revolver only costs 750gp.
And I don't want to hear about how 'advanced firearms are optional' Golorion has them, and has had them for 3 or more years (real world years). I don't want to hear about how you won't have them in your world, thats your world (If you won't allow them in your world then obviously you feel that there is a problem with them, now don't you?).
I use Golarion as my baseline for everything associated with Pathfinder. And the profiteers of Katapesh and Qadira would flood the world with cheap(er) guns.
I know I can 'house-rule' whatever I want, but whats the use of having a rulebook then, if at the end of the day I just have to tell my players to disregard something in the book, its just easier to be able to use the book.
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Hyperbole much?The bow does hit -- 30% of the time. He can also fire two shots in one round with a 25% of the time hit rate, with deadly aim he fires two times at a 15% hit rate.
Fighter B fires 1 time with a +3 bonus with a 25% miss chance.
Heirloom weapon doesn't give you the weapon -- just the masterwork for free. Also it grants you specific proficiency with a weapon not all weapons of that type so you can't take weapon focus for pistol yet.
Even with it you would still have to reload (standard action) meaning the bow is taking 4 shots to your 1.
Think before you type.
Edited for explanations.
2nd level fighter doesn't get two shots, didn't have enough feats to get Rapid Shot (and even if he had it he'd just get more chances to miss)
You are correct about the Heirloom Weapon trait, my fault. His effective proficiency still lets him select Focus, just doesn't give him the gun for free as I incorrectly stated (twice).