We all know who Superman is, so I don't need to explain who he is and what his powers are. Captain Marvel might need an explanation for non comic book geeks. Captain Marvel is the alter ego of Billy Batson, a youth who works as a radio news reporter and was chosen to be a champion of good by the wizard Shazam. Whenever Billy speaks the wizard's name, he is instantly struck by a magic lightning bolt that transforms him into an adult superhero empowered with the abilities of six legendary figures:
S for the wisdom of Solomon
H for the strength of Hercules
A for the stamina of Atlas
Z for the power of Zeus
A for the invulnerability of Achilles
M for the speed of Mercury
The two have fought before in the comicbooks in numerous story lines, but as I envision it Captain Marvel would kick Superman's butt, and it would be a fairly easy victory. Why? Captain Marvel has all of the powers of Superman, and Superman is vulnerable to magic. It has been revealed many times that due to his Krptonian genetics, he has less restistance to magic than a normal Human does.
Therefore, for that reason alone, Superman should have absolute no defense verus the magical powers of Captain Marvel. That is my take on it.
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There are three answers to this. The first you have outlined above. The second is "who's comic does this appear in? That's your winner" and the third is "Superman would win because he's Superman and therefore more popular"
The question should be something more like "why are the two biggest boy scouts in the DCU fighting each other?"
Hate to disagree Leafar but as much as I hate to admit it superman would win.
Yes cap is ALMOST as powerful but sup's has the edge in sheer raw unmatched power.
DC's top 3 powerhouses that are undisputed are,in order of power level,
: Superman- the measure against which all others are taken
:Wonder Woman- Very close second to supe's has been able to beat him on more than one occasion because of her warrior traning.
Supes is powerful but diana has power and skill on how best to use her power. She cannot however hold her own for very long against the raw power of superman.
: Green Lantern- Power ring= anything he can freakin imagine become reality!! This guy has quite literally pulled planets back into their proper orbit by sheer will power alone.
I am a HUGE DC fan so as long as I can remember those have been the top 3.
Did you ever see the superman vs captain marvel fight in the justice league cartoon series? Cap was good but supes withstood his best shots and kept comeing. Heck even diana beat cap. The problem about giveing super powers to a 12 year old is he still thinks and has the development of a 12 year old, wisdom of solomon not withstanding.
I didn't want to look back at what other comicbook writers did when they had Superman and Captain Marvel fight each other. This is my take on it based on what I know about the two characters. Superman's vulnerability to magic is well documented, and Captain Marvel is a magically powered superhero.
Also, I think that the Wisdom of Solomon makes up for the fact that he is just 12 years old in his human form. That magical wisdom should give him all the information he needs to defeat anyone, including Superman.
As to why they are fighting, who knows? Maybe they have to fight to save the Universe or something.
Isn't Black Atom an evil version of Captain Marvel?
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The best example ever of a fight between Superman and Captain Marvel was in the Mark Waid written miniseries Kingdom Come.
A brainwashed and insane Captain Marvel is fighting Superman, pretty evenly matched. Then Marvel starts saying SHAZAM, moving out of the way at super speed each time to let the magical bolt of lightening strike Supes without changing him back to Billy Batson.
That goes on for a bit, really taking its toll on the Man of Steel, but Marvel pushes it a bit to far. Thinking he's got Superman down for the count, he tries it one last time. Superman reaches out with equal superspeed and pulls Marvel back so that the bolt hits them both, transforming him to Billy and clamping a hand over his mouth so that he can't speak again.
Edit: Ninja'd, except Supes had been in self-imposed exile in the Fortress of Solitude, not the moon.
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Which if I recall correctly had been relocated to the Moon, but I might be confusing another graphic novel.
Edit: Ninja'd, except Supes had been in self-imposed exile in the Fortress of Solitude, not the moon.
Naah, it was still in the Arctic during Kingdom Come. But there are a lot of comic book stories with places on the moon: Apocalypse had a base there in X-men, The Inhumans had a city there. Alan Scott green Lantern recently established a Star-Heart powered city there, etc.
okay...really...
The Captain Wins hands down...its not a fair fight its like saying
Batman vs ...anybody
or an Elephant vs Paris Hilton
it might be interesting to see but you know the outcome
Kingdom Come is one of my favorite comics of all time. Also done by my favorite artist Alex Ross. I really enjoyed that the comic was told from the percpective of an ordinary preacher chosen to be judge and jury.
Anyway , Your right , Captain Marvle has all the power he needs to beat superman in a fight. The only problem is it takes more then flashy powers to win. Supermans got alot more heart ( using a sports term ). Thats why he can win against people that are clearly more powerful then he is like doomsday or darkseid.
I didn't want to look back at what other comicbook writers did when they had Superman and Captain Marvel fight each other. This is my take on it based on what I know about the two characters. Superman's vulnerability to magic is well documented, and Captain Marvel is a magically powered superhero.
That's not how it works exactly, just because he is magically powered doesn't mean he bypasses Supes invulnerability. Of course he will get injured, but it's because there is superstrenght behind the blows. What the weakness to magic means, to put in game terms, is that magic weapons can hurt him, and so can evocation spells (and CM has an advantage there since he packs a mean Lightning Bolt), his supersenses can be affected by illusions like any normal senses, any defensive spell that would defeat superstrenght will be unbreakable to him, and he is scarily vulnerable to nechromancy and enchantment. The only edge this all give to Marvel is the Lightning Bolt tactic and that has already been explained a couple posts above.
Captain Marvel has all of the powers of Superman
Flat no. Supersenses, heat vision and super/cold breath. Only guy with more powers than Supes is J'onn.
Also, I think that the Wisdom of Solomon makes up for the fact that he is just 12 years old in his human form. That magical wisdom should give him all the information he needs to defeat anyone, including Superman.
Wisdom does not mean knowledge, inteligence, cunning or skill. Again in game terms: Wis is not Int.
Also Superman wins because his best friend is Batman and if you defeat Superman, the Bat will take you so down you will wake up in Japan.
I didn't want to look back at what other comicbook writers did when they had Superman and Captain Marvel fight each other. This is my take on it based on what I know about the two characters. Superman's vulnerability to magic is well documented, and Captain Marvel is a magically powered superhero.That's not how it works exactly, just because he is magically powered doesn't mean he bypasses Supes invulnerability. Of course he will get injured, but it's because there is superstrenght behind the blows. What the weakness to magic means, to put in game terms, is that magic weapons can hurt him, and so can evocation spells (and CM has an advantage there since he packs a mean Lightning Bolt), his supersenses can be affected by illusions like any normal senses, any defensive spell that would defeat superstrenght will be unbreakable to him, and he is scarily vulnerable to nechromancy and enchantment. The only edge this all give to Marvel is the Lightning Bolt tactic and that has already been explained a couple posts above.
Captain Marvel has all of the powers of SupermanFlat no. Supersenses, heat vision and super/cold breath. Only guy with more powers than Supes is J'onn.
Also, I think that the Wisdom of Solomon makes up for the fact that he is just 12 years old in his human form. That magical wisdom should give him all the information he needs to defeat anyone, including Superman.Wisdom does not mean knowledge, inteligence, cunning or skill. Again in game terms: Wis is not Int.
Also Superman wins because his best friend is Batman and if you defeat Superman, the Bat will take you so down you will wake up in Japan.
...But look at it more this way...
Batman also has a way to kill supermanIf it was SUPES who went evil and Captain marvel fought him than batman would have no problem
If we are to take Capt. Marvel's powers literally, he is certainly as strong as Superman -- Hercules changed the course of a river, held the world up briefly for Atlas, etc.
He will never tire, as he has the stamina of the titan who holds up the world for eternity. Superman, no matter how super he is, will eventually run out of steam.
Like Achilles, he is invulnerable (except at his heel). So unless Superman is aiming all his mighty blows at CM's heels, they should be harmless.
The power of Zeus? That's vague, as Zeus had all kinds of powers, being a greater god. Let us assume they mean his lightning bolts. Even the other Olympian gods feared Zeus' lightning bolts. I'd say Superman, with his documented vulnerability to magic, would likely be fried if the writers were being impartial.
The speed of Mercury should put him roughly on par with Superman, who is faster than a speeding bullet. Mercury is divinely fast, so he's probably at least fast enough to dodge a speeding bullet (and avoid Superman's attempts to rip out his Achilles tendons).
I'm betting on CM.
Isn't Black Atom an evil version of Captain Marvel?
Black Adam is essentially a a darker version of Marvel, yes. Not necesarily evil, though.
The two possess similar sources of power, essentially the same abilities, but very different backgrounds; Adam was originally from ancient Egypt, and granted a version of the "Shazam" powers by the god Set, but proved ruthless in his actions. The wizard Shazam imprisoned him in a tomb for centuries as a result.
I always felt that Superman vs. Shazam ends with Superman being beaten into a paste unless he's got backup. It's one of the most even matches in existence, but Supes is INCREDIBLY vulnerable to magic to the point of ridiculousness and the fickleness/mercy of the writer, so any time I've seen Supes beat Shazam, I've always felt it was because the name of the book was Superman, not Captain Marvel.
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The "power level" of each character has varied tremendously through their histories. During the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" continuity reset, my friend Steve and I were working on the "Superman Sourcebook" for the DC Heroes game, and we conducted a fairly elaborate discussion with John Byrne who was the lead developer on Superman, about what his post-Crisis power levels were.
According to Byrne, working flat out, Superman would be able to lift the Great Pyramid of Cheops, and maybe throw it a half-mile or so.
A couple of years later, in the books, Superman uses his heat vision, and nothing else, to reach up into mid-earth orbit, melt off chunks of a satellite, and cause it to come crashing down around him a few seconds later, all of this while fighting someone in his weight-class, and while being poisoned by the effects of being on an island covered in kryptonite.
His "vulnerability to magic" is a relic of pre-Crisis continuity. In modern continuity, he's as vulnerable to a magic spell as anybody else, but not more so.
(Even then, as Kingdom Come observes, he gets hit with magic lightning over and over again. It hurts, but doesn't seem to cause any permanent damange. Normal people don't live through one lightning strike, let alone a half-dozen.)
For a while there, Captain Marvel's powers wee being drained every time another member of the Marvel Family drew down the lighning, the powers being evenly split between all the recipients. I don't think that's currently the case.
It's been established that Supes and Cap are a pretty even match.
The "power level" of each character has varied tremendously through their histories. During the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" continuity reset, my friend Steve and I were working on the "Superman Sourcebook" for the DC Heroes game, and we conducted a fairly elaborate discussion with John Byrne who was the lead developer on Superman, about what his post-Crisis power levels were.
According to Byrne, working flat out, Superman would be able to lift the Great Pyramid of Cheops, and maybe throw it a half-mile or so.
A couple of years later, in the books, Superman uses his heat vision, and nothing else, to reach up into mid-earth orbit, melt off chunks of a satellite, and cause it to come crashing down around him a few seconds later, all of this while fighting someone in his weight-class, and while being poisoned by the effects of being on an island covered in kryptonite.
His "vulnerability to magic" is a relic of pre-Crisis continuity. In modern continuity, he's as vulnerable to a magic spell as anybody else, but not more so.
(Even then, as Kingdom Come observes, he gets hit with magic lightning over and over again. It hurts, but doesn't seem to cause any permanent damange. Normal people don't live through one lightning strike, let alone a half-dozen.)
For a while there, Captain Marvel's powers wee being drained every time another member of the Marvel Family drew down the lighning, the powers being evenly split between all the recipients. I don't think that's currently the case.
It's been established that Supes and Cap are a pretty even match.
I'm sorry to disagree with someone who has worked with the greats!! What was working with Byrne like??
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What was working with Byrne like??
I've had the opportunity to work with John Byrne repeatedly. (Back in high school, I managed to conduct the very first Chris Claremont / John Byrne combined interview, back when the wave of enthusiasm over their X-Men books was just beginning to swell.) Over the years, he's gone from an enthusiastic artist, to a writer-artist pretty full of himself, to a comic professional who's found his place in the world.
At the point Steve and I were communicating with him for DC Heroes, he was confident that he knew what he was doing -- which was moving Superman away from the deep, deep rut he'd been in for decades, and towards the character as portrayed in the Donner movies -- and happy to work with us to make sure we were getting our facts straight.
As it turned out, the Powers What Be at DC decided that they didn't want to approve a book that was 2/3 pre-Crisis and 1/3 post-Crisis, becuase those were two different continuities, so we had to cut all the post-Crisis material and very quickly write 32 pages to fill in the rest of the book with more details of pre-Crisis continuity (The layout of Clark Kent's apartment! The Super-Cigars of Perry White!)
Later on, Roger Stern himself wrote the post-Crisis Superman sourcebook. For whatever reason, ours had a Byrne cover, and his had a Curt Swan cover.
Superman wins. They're equally-matched in melee, but Superman has laser eyes. (Heat vision. Whatever.)
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I'll try to find the links when I get home, but Mark Waid mentioned his vulnerability when he talked about the JLA/Avengers cross over.
He reads it as Superman doesn't have a resistance to magical effects. (IIRC). So a bullet conjured and fired still bounces off Superman, since the magic conjured the bullet, but it's still 'just' a bullet.
Now if the magic conjured a bullet capable of shooting through anything, then it will blow a hole in Supes just fine, since the magic is 'blow chunks out of something.' (like the above example, Diana's sword is 'magically sharp')
So smacking Clark in the face with Mjolner doesn't hurt him more than say smacking him in the face with Cap's shield. Mjolnier's magic isn't 'smash anything' But he can't pick up the hammer (without being worthy) because that *is* one of its enchantments. He couldn't prevent the hammer from returning no matter how hard he tried, because that's one of its enchantments. Likewise, he can't stop the Juggernaut from moving, since that's one of his magical powers.
(aside, I don't know if Mjolnier/Bloodaxe/Thunderstrike/Stormbreaker would transform him. In theory, they would).
Thor vs. Captain Marvel raises similar questions. Would a Thor produced lightning bolt turn the Big Red Cheese into Billy Batson?
So, as awesome as the fight was on Justice League Unlimted, I've got to go with Clark over Billy. (Teth Amon should win over Clark, but he'd cheat).
I'll try to find the links when I get home, but Mark Waid mentioned his vulnerability when he talked about the JLA/Avengers cross over.
He reads it as Superman doesn't have a resistance to magical effects. (IIRC). So a bullet conjured and fired still bounces off Superman, since the magic conjured the bullet, but it's still 'just' a bullet.
Now if the magic conjured a bullet capable of shooting through anything, then it will blow a hole in Supes just fine, since the magic is 'blow chunks out of something.' (like the above example, Diana's sword is 'magically sharp')
So smacking Clark in the face with Mjolner doesn't hurt him more than say smacking him in the face with Cap's shield. Mjolnier's magic isn't 'smash anything' But he can't pick up the hammer (without being worthy) because that *is* one of its enchantments. He couldn't prevent the hammer from returning no matter how hard he tried, because that's one of its enchantments. Likewise, he can't stop the Juggernaut from moving, since that's one of his magical powers.
(aside, I don't know if Mjolnier/Bloodaxe/Thunderstrike/Stormbreaker would transform him. In theory, they would).Thor vs. Captain Marvel raises similar questions. Would a Thor produced lightning bolt turn the Big Red Cheese into Billy Batson?
So, as awesome as the fight was on Justice League Unlimted, I've got to go with Clark over Billy. (Teth Amon should win over Clark, but he'd cheat).
That was a damn good fight, but my favorite was Captain Atom vs. Superman.
No one has brought up Superman's single greatest advantage.
Will power.
There are three levels to Superman, the standard ultra powerful boyscout, then there's Superman when he's angry which utterly terrifies just about anyone with a brain.
And then there's the final level, Superman when he's about to die. You see Superman is absolutely convinced that the world needs him, and that anything powerful enough to kill him leaves the world at its mercy.
And he refuses to let that happen. He digs deep and pulls it out.
The best you can hope for is a draw, but you'll die first. He won't let go until he knows you're not getting up again.
See Doomsday.
One of my favorite moments is where in the midst of pitched ballt the rest of the JLA and the people they fight stop mid-battle to witness Superman face an Archangel.
The hardest person to beat is someone who can't afford to lose because they have something to protect.
Isn't Black Atom an evil version of Captain Marvel?Yes
I thought he was the love child of Black Adam and Mr. Atom.
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Found Mr. Busiek's post
"The bottom line is, Superman's vulnerability to magic has been inconsistently portrayed over the decades, but the most-common description of it is that magic will work on him like it does on anyone else. So a magic spell that turns people into newts will turn him into a newt (or possibly a super-newt) and a sword enchanted to cut through anything will cut his skin. But a sword enchanted to make the wielder the finest swordsman in the land, while it's a magic weapon, won't hurt Superman, because the magic in the sword isn't about doing physical damage, it's about making the wielder ultra-skilled."
Though '"Odin Say Knock You Out" spell' has to be the best line in the post.
In Kingdom Come the lightning does hurt superman. IIRC , hes starts to bleed from the eyes and ears , which is never a good sign . Also he was preaty busted up from the melee.
One thing I dont recall people pointing out is that Captain Marvel himself is not magic. His powers are from a magical source but his physical attacks are as mundane as the next guys. Only magic thing ive seen him use are those lightning bolts and im not even entirely sure those are magic.
Superman and other heros on his level are not invulnerable your just not hitting them hard enough to do anything. See the fight with doomsday. Doomsday is not a creature of magic , or made of kryptonite hes just tough as hell and can throw a good beating.
Besides... well all know that the flash ( barry allen ) is the most over the top OP character ever. Cant be killed because death is to slow , he can time travle , he even thinks and heals that fast.... just op.
I also read a comic where Hal Jordan blew up a planet with his ring like it was effortless. Granted I think it drained something like 48% of the rings power reserve , but more just an oath away anyway.
I'm not a huge comics fan, but I loved the JLA episode where those two fought. Superman beat Cap, but he still "lost" in the end (the whole thing was a great moment for Lex, which I appreciate).
I'm not a huge comics fan, but I loved the JLA episode where those two fought. Superman beat Cap, but he still "lost" in the end (the whole thing was a great moment for Lex, which I appreciate).
I watched the episode on a DVD I rented a little while ago, and was thinking the same thing. Sups won the battle but ultimately CM won the war by out boy-scouting the boy-scout (it helped that he was actually a boy). Telling the Justice League off for falling from their ideals.
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The thing is Superman is not any more vulnerable to Captain Marvel's superstrength than he is to the Martian Manhunter's or a giant robot's.
Essentially Superman's vulnerability to magic is a Will Save comparable with a human. It's not that he's vulnerable he just has no special defense vs magic. He can be polymorphed, or mind-controlled, or tricked by illusions just as easily as Batman, or Jane Doe.
If someone shoots him with a super science lightning beam, it's no more or less damaging than someone shooting him with a Lightning Bolt spell. It's just physical damage which he is extremely resistant to.
Basically a fight between the two of them ends in a tie, or the winner is whoever's name is on the front of the book.
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A more recent encounter. I particularly like the animation around 1:08, which suggests that the animators used models who knew how to fight.
Superman won this fight a long time ago. DC sued the comic company that created Captain Marvel for IP issues because of the likeness between the two characters. Eventually the other company lost/couldn't afford the legal battles (can't remember which) and DC got all of the company's titles. Thus Superman won :D.
My 2 coppers worth of opinion.
While being a fan of both heroes, I believe that unless a comic writer had a need or specific storyline reason for having it be otherwise:
The two of them going all out against each other would have Supes coming out on top.
Isn't Black Atom an evil version of Captain Marvel?Yes
In that case Superman wins until Lex Luther shows up and stabs Superman with a Kryptonite Spear. (See DC Universe trailer)
What about DC's Aquaman vs. Marvel's Prince Namor/Submariner? I don't know alot about either superhero, but from what little I've read/seen, I'd say Namor wins, but just barely.
Both are really strong, but not sure which is stronger.
Both are equally at home on land or in water, though Aquaman's ability to telepathically control sea creatures could be a big advantage in the sea.
Namor can fly, which I don't think I've ever seen Aquaman do, so that's an obvious advantage.
Both are skilled combatants, but I think Namor is surlier/prouder/more aggressive.
I always loved Captain Marvel, but I don't ever remember his powers manifesting as magical. I mean, I know his TRANSFORMATION is magical, but once transformed he basically just flies, hits things and throws things around like Superman does. I don't recall him ever casting spells or anything.
In the grand scheme of things, I think Superman would win. Marvel is no Doomsday. And he's no Hulk, either.
On a personal note, Captain Marvel and his kid siblings constitute my favorite proof that "Henshin" was not invented by the Japanese (I love the Japanese - I just despise self-loathing fanboys).
I always loved Captain Marvel, but I don't ever remember his powers manifesting as magical. I mean, I know his TRANSFORMATION is magical, but once transformed he basically just flies, hits things and throws things around like Superman does. I don't recall him ever casting spells or anything.
When I was a kid, we had a copy of DC Comics Presents #34 (but not #33, which was part 1 of a 2-parter). I seem to remember that they pointed out that Cap's magical power source was extra effective against Supes (and likewise for Mr. Mind's magic-powered rabbit robot...um, yeah).
I'm a huge fan of both Superman and Captain Marvel! I seem to recall during Grant Morrison's run on JLA that Marvel two-punched Supes along with a line like (I got lucky...and he's vulnerable to magic). I think Superman would win any fight in the end, but both Captain Marvel (and Thor during their JLA/Avengers dust-up) should put up a hell of a fight.
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From newsarama's series "An Oral History of Captain Marvel."
Alex Ross - “Positioning him at odds with Superman in battle in a final ‘Ragnarok’ for DC’s history seemed a powerful position for Captain Marvel and a poignant one. His being the force that Superman has to reckon with as the one person stronger than he is was a point I wanted to make in general about anyone: that there is always someone stronger, faster, better than you who you’ll be put up against, no matter who you are."
This is just one artist's opinion for one story that didn't happen in continuity but, coming from Alex Ross, it's an indication that some big names in the industry feel Cap is at least an equal match for Kal. Ross also seems to imply a little further down that Cap could and probably would have beaten Supes in the Kingdom Come fight, but that wasn't his role in the story so it didn't happen that way.
It's easy enough to say Superman wins because he's Superman and, in continuity, Superman always wins in the end, but I'm a Captain Marvel fan so regardless of powers, track record, popularity or anything else, The Big Red Cheese wins the day every time...unless he's fighting Aquaman, in which case the fight ends in a happy stalemate.
What about DC's Aquaman vs. Marvel's Prince Namor/Submariner? I don't know alot about either superhero, but from what little I've read/seen, I'd say Namor wins, but just barely.
One of the crossovers had that fight. Aquaman won because as he put it, Namor was too noble to cheat. They were fighting by the water when Namor got surprised by an orca summoned by Aquaman jumping out of the water and doing a belly flop down on top of him. Instant KO.
What about DC's Aquaman vs. Marvel's Prince Namor/Submariner? I don't know alot about either superhero, but from what little I've read/seen, I'd say Namor wins, but just barely.One of the crossovers had that fight. Aquaman won because as he put it, Namor was too noble to cheat. They were fighting by the water when Namor got surprised by an orca summoned by Aquaman jumping out of the water and doing a belly flop down on top of him. Instant KO.
i remember that crossover as well.
i wish to point out that if my memory is correct the matches were put out to the public,and the one that got the most votes won the matchup. the fights were a bit....regrettable in that the writers didn't completely understand whichever character their title didn't work with.example: superman hurts the hulk with his heat vision! ...yet the hulk is fundamentally immune to heat and fire damage.
wolverine beat lobo...
batman beat captain america..
superman beat the hulk...
wonder woman beat thor...
spiderman beat superboy...
and i forget the rest.
i believe flash beat quicksilver as a matchup also (i agree with this one, its at the bottom because i remembered it after typing above)