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Okay, so there's a number of people calling for something like this. So here's an idea of how to tweak the progression:
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LVL _ SPECIAL
.1 . Deeds (any two), grit, gunsmith
.2 . (bravery replacement +1)
.3 . Deeds (any two)
.4 . Bonus feat
.5 . Deeds (trick), gun training
.6 . (bravery replacement +2)
.7 . Deeds (any two)
.8 . Bonus feat
.9 . Deeds (trick), gun training
10 . (bravery replacement +3)
11 . Deeds (any two)
12 . Bonus feat
13 . Deeds (trick), gun training
14 . (bravery replacement +4)
15 . Deeds (any two)
16 . Bonus feat
17 . Deeds (trick), gun training
18 . (bravery replacement +5)
19 . Deeds (any two)
20 . Bonus feat, true grit
Currently, the Gunslinger gets 18 Deeds, spread over 6 levels. This change would grant 16 Deeds that can be chosen, spread over 10 levels (choose Deeds every 2nd level, feels more like a major class feature as it has more "face time" during leveling).
Then you can delineate Deeds into one of two categories: Combat or Trick Deeds. Since you are locked into picking Trick Deeds on the gun training levels, you won't see those "quirky" Deeds never being chosen.
The final step, of course, is to remove the current feats that are Deeds, and simply put them into the Deeds list (except Signature Deed of course).
In it's place, have the feat "Extra Deed":
Extra Deed
Through natural luck, gumption, and talent, you can perform a special deed.
Prerequisite: Deeds class feature, or the Amateur Gunslinger feat.
Benefit: You gain one additional gunslinger deed. You must meet all the prerequisites for this gunslinger deed.
Special: You can gain Extra Deed multiple times.
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There are a couple reasons why this feels more appropriate for the class.
1. The Gunslinger is feat starved. Ranged combat is already feat intensive (I can think of about 6-7 feats that are fairly important in the core book, not even thinking of the APG yet), and that doesn't include some nice Gunslinger-style feats (Quickdraw, Diehard, possible mounted combat stuff, etc).
The current mechanic of adding new Deeds for the class seems to be by adding feats. Between thematic feats, ranged combat, and stuff like extra grit and signature deed, the Gunslinger is going to be hard pressed keeping up with any new additions, without giving up a lot.
2. Not every Gunslinger should have the same set of abilities. I don't want to hear "You've seen one Gunslinger, you've seen 'em all". People can play a Rogue or a Fighter or a Barbarian over and over, because they can create different builds.
This class is already pretty hard-coded into what weapon they'll be using (ranged gun), the difference between two-handed, pistol and shotgun isn't big enough to really define the playstyle.
If each Gunslinger had a different set of Deeds.. some have stuff for being acrobatic, others were more about trick shots, and yet others are about being a sniper or surprise shots, etc.. then you've got re-playability of the class.
3. This allows you to define Deeds based on era, making the Gunslinger class "gun era proof". You want Deeds that fit the "Emerging Guns" era, that deal with misfires and cheapening ammo? Great! You want Deeds that don't worry about that stuff because it assumes a "Guns Everywhere" era? It's as simple as a small tag in the prerequisites of the Deed.
Tadaa! Now the Gunslinger class can be played in any game, without needing to be tweaked by each individual GM. All it takes is releasing a new set of Deeds for a particular era, and you've got it covered.
4. This allows someone to pick up something like Utility Shot at first level (if you allow it), without making the class feel bloated at 1st level.
Those wishing there was more to the class that was unique or defining right from the get-go can select one of their Deeds that makes the class feel this way.
This is similar to letting the Rogue decide if his Rogue Talent gives him something like Minor Magic, or Trap Spotter, or if he prefers, just Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse. The Rogue can feel like he gets something neat and unique right away, or he can decide that doesn't matter and build towards necessity. The same would now apply to the Gunslinger.
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Overall, I think this would make the jump from making the class just "playable", to "robust and awesome".
Thoughts?
This.
I like this a lot. Only thing I would add is if Gunslingers get 18 Deeds through regular level progression while Alchemists and Rogues only get 9 Discoveries/Talents, shouldn't the Extra Deed feat be worth 2 new Deeds?
I also personally don't think Amateur Gunslinger should be available. If someone wants Grit and Deeds they should take a level in Gunslinger unless they plan on making more feats like this. Amateur Alchemist. Amateur Rogue. Amateur Barbarian. Etc.
Why should the PC have less option in actual gameplay, for the sake of customization?
Customization is good, but is not the final aim.
The current gunslinger has a great intuition, design wise: a large choice balanced by management of resources (grit).
In this way, you make it more similar to the rogue. Really, there is no need of such change.
I do like your suggestion, this progression is the first one to convince me to change my stance on the subject of deeds,
Now going this route, Why should the gunslinger end up with twice as many choose able abilities as any other class with "talents" If they go this route should they not just insert standard formula?
Finally, They did say that losing medium armor wouldn't matter because the bravery replacement would help out, so I believe it will be an AC bonus of some sort. Still, I do agree they should get 4 skill points per level, because The feel of this class is its more skilled than an average fighter, but less skilled than a Ranger.
Why should the PC have less option in actual gameplay, for the sake of customization?
Customization is good, but is not the final aim.
The current gunslinger has a great intuition, design wise: a large choice balanced by management of resources (grit).
In this way, you make it more similar to the rogue. Really, there is no need of such change.
good point, its 'customizable' through limited grit.
I do like your suggestion, this progression is the first one to convince me to change my stance on the subject of deeds,
Now going this route, Why should the gunslinger end up with twice as many choose able abilities as any other class with "talents" If they go this route should they not just insert standard formula?
Finally, They did say that losing medium armor wouldn't matter because the bravery replacement would help out, so I believe it will be an AC bonus of some sort. Still, I do agree they should get 4 skill points per level, because The feel of this class is its more skilled than an average fighter, but less skilled than a Ranger.
deeds arent as good as talents or discoveries or arcanna, half of them fix a problem already designed it, instead of boosting or giving options, s basically a deed is a half-talent in the same way a trait is a half-feat.
good point, its 'customizable' through limited grit.Why should the PC have less option in actual gameplay, for the sake of customization?
Customization is good, but is not the final aim.
The current gunslinger has a great intuition, design wise: a large choice balanced by management of resources (grit).
In this way, you make it more similar to the rogue. Really, there is no need of such change.
No, it's customizabile through feats* and, partially, skills.
Open deeds regulated by grit is his own special thing, and I don't see why should lose it.
* BTW, this is a reason for leave it as a fighter alternative.
deeds arent as good as talents or discoveries or arcanna, half of them fix a problem already designed it, instead of boosting or giving options, s basically a deed is a half-talent in the same way a trait is a half-feat.
That is a very good response, especially since grit is very limited (being maxed at your Wis modifier) unless you start spending your feats for more, but then we get the issue of not having all the ranged combat feats that are needed to make guns good in combat.
No, it's customizabile through feats* and, partially, skills.
Open deeds regulated by grit is his own special thing, and I don't see why should lose it.
* BTW, this is a reason for leave it as a fighter alternative.
The big thing with it no longer being a fighter alt is this class has half the feat progression fighters get, and not in a good way either their progression starts much later So to start "customizing" your character with the class itself you need to wait till 4th level.
Skills are one customizable thing I do agree with you on, 2 points per level and a bigger skill list than a fighter. Your gunslingers personality would be based on his skill selection big time.
With the build presented now gunslingers no longer would need to spend feats on deeds because all the grit feats are folded into the deed list. Also, With this as presented it would be much easier for paizo to support the class later on. Right now if they want to give gunslingers another deed It would almost definitely have to be a feat, because adding another one to the list could be overpowered.
Edit: accidentally posted before I was finished
So Basically I'm all for the way this is presented because now they could add deeds without making them feats and making the gunslinger need to choose between grit feat or something to make them better with their gun all the time.
For later, just add the option of:
- Swap a deed for another
- Add new deeds for a feat.
- Weak but cool deeds could be added for free.
About skills, you are right, but in high point buy I could nevertheless customize something.
Fighter feats.. I think I will houserule it as a fighter: Really don't understand the change. It only hurts the functionality AND the fluff, and adds nothing.
And all because people said "but is too different from the original fighter".
Rethinking Stuff in favor of the OP:
About my point above, an addendum: indeed, the OP proposale makes the Gunslinger a more likely Fighter Alternative (which is IMHO good).
An idea for the skill - armor prof swap could be this: make it an option for every fighter.
Another good point in favor of the OP could be that in this way (full BAB, more bonus feat and the option of use less weapon for more skill points) one could save the archetype of a sabre + pistol wielder. Maybe not optimal, but doable.
And all because people said "but is too different from the original fighter".
I actually feel It was originally a lot like the fighter, It needed feats to really customize its self. I think they may have released this playtest too early, it seems like it is only halfway changed, including it being stated in another forum by a member of paizo staff "Bravery will be changed by the time ultimate combat comes out."
It seems they were shifting it to its own class but they only did it halfway, by keeping the grit feats in and Keeping bravery in as a class ability.
I also personally don't think Amateur Gunslinger should be available. If someone wants Grit and Deeds they should take a level in Gunslinger unless they plan on making more feats like this. Amateur Alchemist. Amateur Rogue. Amateur Barbarian. Etc.
The comparison of Deeds to rogue talents and rage powers, etc, are only in the manner of defining customization of the class.
Grit and Deeds are actually different from those other class abilities because they are mostly specific to "using a gun", which is something anyone can do. Rage powers need rage, alchemist discoveries need alchemist's version of spellcasting or bomb throwing, etc.
The Amateur Gunslinger feat exists to give people who picked up gun proficiency a way to do stuff with the gun that makes it so it doesn't suck.
If there was a way to pick up rage, then an "Amateur Rager" feat might make more sense.
good point, its 'customizable' through limited grit.Why should the PC have less option in actual gameplay, for the sake of customization?
Customization is good, but is not the final aim.
The current gunslinger has a great intuition, design wise: a large choice balanced by management of resources (grit).
In this way, you make it more similar to the rogue. Really, there is no need of such change.
No, it's customizabile through feats* and, partially, skills.
Open deeds regulated by grit is his own special thing, and I don't see why should lose it.
* BTW, this is a reason for leave it as a fighter alternative.
My point was that the method of current customization (feats and grit use) is woefully inadequate. Grit is extremely limited, and the class *is* Fighter-ish in that it's going to need a lot of feats already.
If they got a bunch of automatic stuff that made their attack and damage better (such as Gun Training giving and actual bonus to attack and damage on top of the Dex bonus), and some automatic feats (like gaining Quickdraw, and some ranged combat feats automatically), then I could see customization through feats being an option.It's tempting to compare this class feature to the Monk's Ki. They both use a pool of points to fuel a list of static abilities that every one of the same class gets.
This is where the comparison falls apart though:
- 5 of the uses of Ki are to temporarily improve something the Monk already has a bonus to. This means the Monk already has a feature that improves his ability over the average person, and then may spend Ki to boost it even higher for 1 round.
The Grit points are used to allow the use of the feature at all. There's no "automatically has this, even without having Grit at all" until you reach 20th level and get True Grit and apply it to something that lowers it enough. 20th level = end cap special, not "class defining feature".
- Other than those "boosting" uses, the Monk only has 3 other abilities that use Ki to function.
Compared to the 18 abilities that the Gunslinger needs Grit to function at all.
18 abilities makes this a "class defining feature". I've never heard of people calling a Monk defined by his Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step and Empty Body abilities.
If there were only a couple abilities that used Grit in the manner required, it wouldn't be a problem that all Gunslingers have the same features.
Quite simply: 18 abilities makes this feel like as if you were to play a Rogue with all the same talents, or a Barbarian with all the same rage powers.
Not like a Monk needing to use Ki for the same 3 abilities.
Why should the PC have less option in actual gameplay, for the sake of customization?
Customization is good, but is not the final aim.
If you aren't hardcoded into getting things you don't want along with the things you want, you can tailor your choices to remove excess waste.
But really, we are talking about losing only access to two Deeds for the sake of complete customization. If it's really that big a deal, you could just redo 1st and 11th levels as having "any three" (1st to keep it similar to the current class, and 11th to reward someone who stuck with the class instead of going into a 10-level PrC).
I'd be all for that actually, I was erring on the side of conservatism.
Did anyone have any thoughts on points #3 and #4?
Allowing more class uniqueness available (at the choice of the player) early on.
And "era proofing" the class with things like a simple "This deed is meant for Commonplace Guns era or higher" tag in the choosable Deed.
First people were complaining the gunslinger was a fighter variant and that it should be it's own class. Now that it is it's own class with it's own mechanics people are pushing to have it function closer to pre existing classes especially fighter with things like weapon training, more bonus feats, or access to fighter feats.
Some people have suggested changing gunslinger features to work closer to other classes such as grit being similar to a monk's ki pool or bardic performance or rage. Or having bonus feat trees like a ranger. Or as in this thread picking deeds like talents or rage powers.
Some of the classes features still need tweaking, like making rifles more viable (possibly with changes to dead shot) or figuring out how to balance double tapping etc. But we shouldn't be afraid of introducing new mechanics.
Sometimes using pre existing class features as a base can be good. The magus arcane pool being based off the monk's ki pool being a good example. But innovation is good too and I'd rather see some smaller scale tweak's at this point as opposed to a wholesale change in direction.
Feel free to disagree with me, a lot of creative people on these message boards have come up with excellent and balanced solutions to class balance (insert pickle shout out here) and maybe selectable deeds is the way to go. Personally I like getting a set list of deeds and adding on to it for more customization.
First people were complaining the gunslinger was a fighter variant and that it should be it's own class. Now that it is it's own class with it's own mechanics people are pushing to have it function closer to pre existing classes especially fighter with things like weapon training, more bonus feats, or access to fighter feats.
Some people have suggested changing gunslinger features to work closer to other classes such as grit being similar to a monk's ki pool or bardic performance or rage. Or having bonus feat trees like a ranger. Or as in this thread picking deeds like talents or rage powers.
Some of the classes features still need tweaking, like making rifles more viable (possibly with changes to dead shot) or figuring out how to balance double tapping etc. But we shouldn't be afraid of introducing new mechanics.
Sometimes using pre existing class features as a base can be good. The magus arcane pool being based off the monk's ki pool being a good example. But innovation is good too and I'd rather see some smaller scale tweak's at this point as opposed to a wholesale change in direction.
Feel free to disagree with me, a lot of creative people on these message boards have come up with excellent and balanced solutions to class balance (insert pickle shout out here) and maybe selectable deeds is the way to go. Personally I like getting a set list of deeds and adding on to it for more customization.
Perhaps, I think, after thinking about thunk and thinking what I had thunk was bunk. I have decided maybe the last boost to the Gunslinger is just: a) leave the deeds alone the way they are and B) add in major deeds that are selectable and function like arcana/discoveries.
gonna have to disagree here. i do like the fact that you get to pick, like the Magus and their Arcana, but i dont think that you should pick any two of them at certain levels. i feel that you should pick one and the deeds be better than what they are now.
single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?
single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?
this could work, but i believe those should be deeds that say you have to have at least 1 grit point to use, and only require grit points to be used for deeds you pick.
single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?this could work, but i believe those should be deeds that say you have to have at least 1 grit point to use, and only require grit points to be used for deeds you pick.
Id get rid of the whole "at least one grit" when you make them class features, they are so weak to begin with.
Id get rid of the whole "at least one grit" when you make them class features, they are so weak to begin with.single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?this could work, but i believe those should be deeds that say you have to have at least 1 grit point to use, and only require grit points to be used for deeds you pick.
then technically they wouldnt be deeds, they would just be regular class abilities. therefore there would be no reason to have two different names for two different "deeds." just make what you pick deeds and make the class abilities class abilities.
then technically they wouldnt be deeds, they would just be regular class abilities. therefore there would be no reason to have two different names for two different "deeds." just make what you pick deeds and make the class abilities class abilities.Id get rid of the whole "at least one grit" when you make them class features, they are so weak to begin with.single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?this could work, but i believe those should be deeds that say you have to have at least 1 grit point to use, and only require grit points to be used for deeds you pick.
exactly.
exactly.then technically they wouldnt be deeds, they would just be regular class abilities. therefore there would be no reason to have two different names for two different "deeds." just make what you pick deeds and make the class abilities class abilities.Id get rid of the whole "at least one grit" when you make them class features, they are so weak to begin with.single out the better deeds, make the lesser ones simply class features and add in some better deeds and make deeds selectable and the ones that 'no one would choose' are made into the class features along with the ones that "are a requirement to be viable" like gunsmithing and lightening reload?this could work, but i believe those should be deeds that say you have to have at least 1 grit point to use, and only require grit points to be used for deeds you pick.
sorry, thought you were the one saying make deeds "lesser" and "greater." lol. glad to see we are one the same page.
Some of the classes features still need tweaking, like making rifles more viable (possibly with changes to dead shot) or figuring out how to balance double tapping etc. But we shouldn't be afraid of introducing new mechanics.
I'm not afraid of new mechanics. I'm afraid of the Gunslinger becoming way too similar from one incarnation to the next.
I'm not suggesting the change in the OP because I have aversion to something different, or because I like the old system.
What I suggested was just an example progression to show what is meant by making Deeds selectable, and to instigate discussion of the actual concerns.
If they can give the Gunslinger more modability and customization with a new mechanic, I'd be fine with that. My suggestion was more to incite discussion and give an example: I was being constructive in my criticism.
Some of the classes features still need tweaking, like making rifles more viable (possibly with changes to dead shot) or figuring out how to balance double tapping etc. But we shouldn't be afraid of introducing new mechanics.I'm not afraid of new mechanics. I'm afraid of the Gunslinger becoming way too similar from one incarnation to the next.
I'm not suggesting the change in the OP because I have aversion to something different, or because I like the old system.
What I suggested was just an example progression to show what is meant by making Deeds selectable, and to instigate discussion of the actual concerns.If they can give the Gunslinger more modability and customization with a new mechanic, I'd be fine with that. My suggestion was more to incite discussion and give an example: I was being constructive in my criticism.
One of the things about this is that when you GIVE a class certain things, like some classes do, people don't want to play them (not all but some) because those abilities don't fit well with that persons play style. I tend to play fighters and sorcerers a lot. And when the magus came out I was like eh. But when I saw that I could customize it to fit my play style, I was like SWEET!
The gunslinger is an awesome concept and id love to play one, but the thing that turns me off is getting abilities or deeds that ill never use. If I do use em, its like once or twice in a whole campaign. But every class will have at least one thing that the players won't use that often due to their play style (mutagens for alchemists players who'd rather throw bombs, etc.) But when you give a class 3 or 4 of these, it turns people off.
Like, for me, id prolly never use utility shot, unless I s using it to knock someones weapon away, which id have to use targeting to do, another deed id never use. Pistol whip is good, but only if they change it to as long as you have 1 grit point. Otherwise, id rather take a 5 foot step back (in most cases, sometimes you can't. I know) and blast at them with that rapid shot ability they have (I don't remember what its called right now since I don't have my computer in front of me at the moment). Right there, there's 3 deeds id never use. So 3 levels of the gunslinger are spent on getting abilities that are useless 9 times out of 10 to my play style. That's enough to turn me off of the class.
The thing I love about the magus is their arcana ability and being able to pick the ones that fit my play style, rather than getting all of them and some I will never use.
On another topic, the targeting wing shot, what if the creature had to make a fly check or descend so many feet the next round? Just came to me and I'm on my phone so I'm too lazy to try and find the thread that talks about this.
Some of the classes features still need tweaking, like making rifles more viable (possibly with changes to dead shot) or figuring out how to balance double tapping etc. But we shouldn't be afraid of introducing new mechanics.I'm not afraid of new mechanics. I'm afraid of the Gunslinger becoming way too similar from one incarnation to the next.
I'm not suggesting the change in the OP because I have aversion to something different, or because I like the old system.
What I suggested was just an example progression to show what is meant by making Deeds selectable, and to instigate discussion of the actual concerns.If they can give the Gunslinger more modability and customization with a new mechanic, I'd be fine with that. My suggestion was more to incite discussion and give an example: I was being constructive in my criticism.
One of the things about this is that when you GIVE a class certain things, like some classes do, people don't want to play them (not all but some) because those abilities don't fit well with that persons play style. I tend to play fighters and sorcerers a lot. And when the magus came out I was like eh. But when I saw that I could customize it to fit my play style, I was like SWEET!
The gunslinger is an awesome concept and id love to play one, but the thing that turns me off is getting abilities or deeds that ill never use. If I do use em, its like once or twice in a whole campaign. But every class will have at least one thing that the players won't use that often due to their play style (mutagens for alchemists players who'd rather throw bombs, etc.) But when you give a class 3 or 4 of these, it turns people off.
Like, for me, id prolly never use utility shot, unless I s using it to knock someones weapon away, which id have to use targeting to do, another deed id never use. Pistol whip is good, but only if they change it to as long as you have 1 grit point. Otherwise, id rather take a 5 foot step back (in most cases,...
I know where you're coming from on this, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you saying "...when you give a class certain things...people don't want to play them (not all but some)..." being a valid argument. It's the same argument saying "Well, I don't like that channel, So I'm going to try and change it to suit my wants." If you don't like the finished product, just don't play it. Don't complain about getting class abilities you'll never use, just don't play the 'Slinger. I, for one, love the flavor and style and class features of this class. First thing I'm going to do is roll one up when UC is published. I use every part of my alchemist character when the need arises for it without disliking anything about it.
You talk about playing fighters and sorcerers a lot. That's cool, thats your play style, no one can say anything about it. I tend to not play casters very often (except my alch, this is his first incarnation), but I'm not going to try and instigate a change be made to them so I better like the class. If you like a customizable class, play one. If not, try out the Gunslinger. You never know when the rogue can't pick the lock or you need to scoot something or some other "useless" feature suddenly becomes a viable option in play. If you don't want to be a 'Slinger, you could always play a fighter customized for guns and flavor him as a 'Slinger.
BTW, this is not meant to be a mean post or anything, I'm just pointing out a fallacy (that I see, anyway) in your argument.
EDIT: I personally have no issue with this class giving me features or if the final version lets me pick the deeds, I'll play it either way.
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It's the same argument saying "Well, I don't like that channel, So I'm going to try and change it to suit my wants".
Don't the archetypes exactly do this already ?
The exact theme when coming to design seems to have pretty much already been "customization" in Pathfinder. Yes, there are some classes more stuck in an archetype than others : Barbarians and 2HW, Monks and flurry of fists/shurikens... but the APG added more variety to the classes, and globally to customization.The gunslinger has some issues right now but it seems fine to play. The only thing that still bugs me is that except by the weapon choice, pretty much all gunslingers will be the same... and this doesn't feel "Paizo" material to me. I guess that since there will be new archetypes and mechanisms in the UC, now that the Gunslinger is a new class, we'll see gunslinger variants that fight a bit differently. And at least one gun-kata variant, (ad nauseam). 8D
Kaisoku I am sorry if the wording I choose seemed abrasive or rude. What I mean is we should view the mechanics objectively.
Having access to all the deeds doesn't limit customization so much as it doesn't penalize you for making a corner case selection. If we go the selection method 2 deeds per interval is probably right since they equate to about half feats in my mind. However if we go that way certainly some of those selections are going to seem less attractive than others and will probably be deemed "traps" or sub optimal. A bad deed selection can have consequences for levels if not an entire gunslingers career at least if you blow a point of grit you can get it back.
Yes the gunslinger as presented doesn't get much customization, with only the basics, gender, race, stats, feat selection etc. With bravery being replaced hopefully we will get some form of customization I just hope its something more interesting or powerful mechanically than deeds.
I don't have anything against the class mechanics we have now but I am happy to see something new. Perhaps instead of going back to the tried and true we can work with this new concept and make it work without to much alteration.
The gunslinger as of this incarnation makes me pretty happy. If it changes I will probably still use it but I do not feel it needs a major reworking just some slight changes to a few deeds and maybe a slight increase to the grit pool.
This is just my opinion and If anything seems like a jab at someone please don't take it that way that is not my intent. I just happen to like getting numerous abilities to pick and choose from and the format as is gives options without using up limited resources.
I think, even though the gunslinger provides static deeds at certain levels, to all gunslingers, doesn't mean that the gunslinger won't be customized by the player according to their own play style. I personally wouldn't use pistol whip a whole lot, likely only if the need arose. Certain deeds will become one player's bread and butter, whiel the same may hardly be used by another player. Instead of being given options, then having to choose and be stuck with our choices, we now have hte option of accessing a number of deeds, whenever we want. I suspect though, a number of players will "restrict" themselves anyway, simply because they'll say "my character wouldn't do that deed, so i won't use it for him/her. Thus, customization within the class build instead of an exsternal customization. It's not bad, just different. And different isn't such a bad thing to have.
Respectfully, I find odd the discussion. A lot of times, mundane classes (not full casters) have less options and just to be functional, you are often forced to choose a power or feat you will use often, and delay or never take one very cool but situational.
This new mechanic overcomes such problem, and people don't like it! Sorry, but this is hilarious.
You can expand the deed list by feats in the future - but why cut the initial list?
@Borthos
I was only making an observation about people and them playing other classes and also to the many posts of people saying they'd rather pick deeds rather than be given them. That's what I meant. Many people want to pick these types of abilities, not just myself, and I think a lot of other people see some of these abilities as "ill never use them."
I'm all for not playing a class if it doesn't fit my style, but I like this concept and I wanna play this class, I just was pointing out a fix to deeds that I not only have been preaching since the first playtest but what others have brought up recently, not to make the class more appealing to me, but more appealing for all as well as balanced with the other classes.
Like I said, no argument, just an observation. :-)
@Borthos
I was only making an observation about people and them playing other classes and also to the many posts of people saying they'd rather pick deeds rather than be given them. That's what I meant. Many people want to pick these types of abilities, not just myself, and I think a lot of other people see some of these abilities as "ill never use them."
I'm all for not playing a class if it doesn't fit my style, but I like this concept and I wanna play this class, I just was pointing out a fix to deeds that I not only have been preaching since the first playtest but what others have brought up recently, not to make the class more appealing to me, but more appealing for all as well as balanced with the other classes.
Like I said, no argument, just an observation. :-)
Right, and a lot of the abilities are somewhat situational. Like I said though, maybe the rogue doesn't have the time to pick the lock, or this or that, and I feel that, yes a few of the abilities won't get used often, they will be used eventually. I think it's like the bard songs. Quite a few bard songs are extremely situational (and often kinda useless) and will see little use, but when they do, it'll shine.
I prefer the ability to have options open than choose them and be stuck with them. I'd rather have all the deeds, no matter how situational they were than a select a chosen few deeds. That's just me, though. YMMV
And Maxximillius, this change is bigger than an archetype, it's changing the foundation of the class.
I prefer the ability to have options open than choose them and be stuck with them. I'd rather have all the deeds, no matter how situational they were than a select a chosen few deeds. That's just me, though. YMMV
It might not have been clear in the original post. I'm not suggesting taking anything away, but instead giving more to the class.
What I'm talking about isn't to remove automatic access to the 18 Deeds, and force a gunslinger to choose a couple out of that list of 18.
I'm talking about still choosing 18 Deeds, but from a much larger list, that allows growing that list later down the road.
The problem I'm seeing is that the Deeds seem to be the main way to "expand" the class later on. This means future books will have a section on "Deeds" just like we had a section on Rogue Talents and Rage Powers.
The problem is that Deeds are 90% automatic, with customization through access to feats. This feels way too restrictive, and it competes with something the Gunslinger needs already: combat feats.
This means "all" Gunslingers will have 90% of the same Deeds, and only a handful of unique different ones (if they can afford to drop a feat on it).
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What I'm proposing is that the Gunslinger gets the same amount of Deeds he has now... but has a list of something like 30+ Deeds he can choose from. More than the amount of Deeds currently in playtest.
If you have 30 Deeds to choose from, but can only pick 16 (or 18), then you are looking at Gunslingers having the opportunity to be drastically different in play.
You could even build the Gunslinger exactly as he is now (short of gaining a few things a little earlier), but the option to do something different would still be there.
This gives the developers the opportunity to do things like give the Gunslinger Deeds to reinforce certain combat styles (sniper, two weapons, etc), without needing to resort to feats in an already feat starved class.
It gives the developers an opening to make some Deeds "gun era specific", so if a DM is running a "Guns are Commonplace" campaign, he can tell his player what Deeds he should or shouldn't have access to.
This gives the players the opportunity to choose a unique class defining Deed at first level (like utility shot or something), or not, depending on the build they want. Put it in the player's hands, instead of making some happy and disappointing others.
It solves a lot of problems being discussed in these forums, and even supports the idea of "How much Guns do you want in your game".
I have yet to hear a single response that really refutes this as a bad idea, other than "It's a new mechanic, don't mess with it". Sorry if that is reducing the argument down too simply, but that's all I'm hearing.
If this suggestion can open so many features to the class, then it'd be a shame to ignore this simply because this mechanic is new.
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This gives the developers the opportunity to do things like give the Gunslinger Deeds to reinforce certain combat styles (sniper, two weapons, etc), without needing to resort to feats in an already feat starved class.
We suggested that be allowed this kind of customization in the 1.5 Alpha Gunslinger discussion thread, and have put a lot, LOT of work to propose viable deeds with the assumption that they would be chosen as talents, and not all available at definite levels like now. This take on the class allows for the greatest variety of builds you could imagine on the gunlinger (sniper, musketeer, buccaneer, double-weapons cow-boy, close-range shotgunner, gun-kata master), but this is also the reason it now isn't worth much - since you don't choose the deeds like talents.
I guess we'll not see a lot of cutomization through this class if the system stays like it is right now, if there isn't more deeds that will come up in the UC, or if there will not be any archetype to simulate the previous styles of play without resorting to multi-classing. I sure hope we will have the greatest choice possible, you made me wanting to play a barbarian with the awesomely fun APG archetypes, I'm pretty sure you'll make the gunslinger unique and versatile enough to please everyone, but it will take either deeds you can choose ; more deeds ; or at least two archetypes to the base gunslinger...
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I prefer the ability to have options open than choose them and be stuck with them. I'd rather have all the deeds, no matter how situational they were than a select a chosen few deeds. That's just me, though. YMMVIt might not have been clear in the original post. I'm not suggesting taking anything away, but instead giving more to the class.
What I'm talking about isn't to remove automatic access to the 18 Deeds, and force a gunslinger to choose a couple out of that list of 18.
I'm talking about still choosing 18 Deeds, but from a much larger list, that allows growing that list later down the road.
The problem I'm seeing is that the Deeds seem to be the main way to "expand" the class later on. This means future books will have a section on "Deeds" just like we had a section on Rogue Talents and Rage Powers.
The problem is that Deeds are 90% automatic, with customization through access to feats. This feels way too restrictive, and it competes with something the Gunslinger needs already: combat feats.
This means "all" Gunslingers will have 90% of the same Deeds, and only a handful of unique different ones (if they can afford to drop a feat on it).
.
What I'm proposing is that the Gunslinger gets the same amount of Deeds he has now... but has a list of something like 30+ Deeds he can choose from. More than the amount of Deeds currently in playtest.
If you have 30 Deeds to choose from, but can only pick 16 (or 18), then you are looking at Gunslingers having the opportunity to be drastically different in play.
You could even build the Gunslinger exactly as he is now (short of gaining a few things a little earlier), but the option to do something different would still be there.This gives the developers the opportunity to do things like give the Gunslinger Deeds to reinforce certain combat styles (sniper, two weapons, etc), without needing to resort to feats in an already feat starved class.
It gives the developers an opening to make some Deeds "gun era...
The only problem with this approach I can think of is that the extra Deeds currently gained through feats are more "powerful/useful" than the ones gained automatically. So either the total number of deeds gained would drop and each deed would be improved, or a Greater Deed mechanic could be introduced at later levels to balance the idea. That and a few deeds would need level requirements.