The fact that the shop keeper might not buy the black powder
The point lies in the fact that:
1) PC's can't just kill a first level Gunslinger and instantly get 1,000gp;
2) The upgrade costs 300gp, so they won't be able to fix it until they can afford masterwork weapons anyway;
3) It nerfs one gripe I had about the previous incarnation of the Gunslinger: that they need to spend another 1,300gp to get a masterwork - and hence magical - weapon, which is about 1,000gp extra than any other class. This allows Gunslingers to keep up with other characters with regards to mw weapons while keeping wealth in check;
4) Every class has Craft as a class skill. Has it ever been a problem in any other game that player's can make something for 1/3 cost and sell them for 1/2?
Personally, I think this was one thing that was very well tweaked. I haven't had an in depth look at it yet, but what I've seen, I don't dislike.
What's the point of giving the gunslinger a broken gun if he can fix in in about an hour? Of give it to a spellcaster to fix it.
And what's stopping the gunslinger to produce black powder at 1/10 cost to sell them for 1/2 cost?
The gun is only broken if ANOTHER creature uses it. The gunslinger uses it like a normal gun. Below is straight from the pdf.
Her starting weapon is battered, and only sheknows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat her gun as if it had the broken condition. If it already has the broken condition, it does not work at all for others.
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1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.
4. Under the normal crafting rules it's rather difficult to create 1000 gp worth of material in one day. You not only would need a Craft value of about 255 but also something with a Craft DC of 265.
Even than, you'd only have 1/6 of the items value as profit which is a bit less than 2/5.
1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.
And also need to be 4th or 9th level.
Mending = one object of up to 1lb/level
1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.
They also can kill the fighter and take his greatsword (and probably will earn more profit by doing it). As Ice Titan said, they cant fix it with Mending by level 1. And even if they do, I don't think it will cost more even if it get fixed.
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 4d10 gold pieces when sold).
Emphasis mine. It's scrap not because it's broken, but because a crap gun.
1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.
4. Under the normal crafting rules it's rather difficult to create 1000 gp worth of material in one day. You not only would need a Craft value of about 255 but also something with a Craft DC of 265.
Even than, you'd only have 1/6 of the items value as profit which is a bit less than 2/5.
The Gun isn't broken, It says its treated as broken for any other character. So they cannot repair it. IMO the reasoning behind this is that the gunslinger either made his gun or inherited it and it has some special quirks that make it so only the gunslinger can use it properly. With gunsmithing It took me a while to notice this but It requires no skill check they can just do it, but you could still use normal crafting rules and the craft skill to craft guns as well, it would just take much longer but It would be cheaper. Gunsmithing makes gun crafting cost half as much.
Edit: Quick little addition, It states in the ability the gun only sells for 4d10 gold still a good bit of money but this doesnt change with level so a level 10 gunslingers base gun price would only be 4d10+300 for MW + any magic enhancements But it would still carry the Damaged when wielded by someone else clause.
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it's worth 4d10 gp when sold)
The gun isn't broken, it's treated as broken for other people. It's still worth nothing, even when it's tip top.
As for the crafting thing, there's nothing stopping a spellcaster from scribing scrolls, making potions or crafting any other magic items at any level as selling them for profit.
Guns are made for half market price, and sell for half market price. As for the black powder, at 4gp profit a pop, it's the same profit margin from making and selling Alchemist's Fire.
The only thing I'll say you have a point on is if you can make black powder in bulk, but then you have to find a buyer for a barrel full of black powder.
Also, if your PC honestly thinks that making and selling black powder is a better way of making money than adventuring, then they ain't exactly adventuring material.
Honestly, who care's? This is not an MMO, where all of the quests will just sit there waiting for you until you're ready to go. Nor can you walk into any random settlement and buy and sell thousands of gp worth of items with impunity. Just as there are rules governing the crafting of items, there are rules governing the buying a selling of gear. If you're trying to sell 1000gp worth of bullets every day, you're quickly going to hit the resources limit of any small settlement, thus prompting you to look elsewhere for outlet's to sell your goods. All of a sudden, instead of being paid to guard the caravan, the party is now the caravan itself, and thus, adventure happens.
Moral of the story, if you want to play Pathfinder, any good GM is going to run a Pathfinder game, and no matter how much wealth you try to accumulate, an adventure of some type is going to be the result.
1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.And also need to be 4th or 9th level.
Mending = one object of up to 1lb/level
So, that's what, 20gp?
1/2 (Spell Level) * 4 (Caster Level) * 10gp?
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it's worth 4d10 gp when sold)The gun isn't broken, it's treated as broken for other people. It's still worth nothing, even when it's tip top.
The problem with that is, let's say I roll 4 ones, so it's worth 4gp.
I then scrimp up 300gp.
I now have a 1300gp MW weapons.
1 =/= 1
12/0
Warning Will Robinson, danger danger!
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it's worth 4d10 gp when sold)The gun isn't broken, it's treated as broken for other people. It's still worth nothing, even when it's tip top.
The problem with that is, let's say I roll 4 ones, so it's worth 4gp.
I then scrimp up 300gp.
I now have a 1300gp MW weapons.
1 =/= 1
12/0
Warning Will Robinson, danger danger!
The base gun would still only be worth 4 Thus it would be worth 304 gp, I covered this above.
The base gun would still only be worth 4 Thus it would be worth 304 gp, I covered this above.
A MW gun is worth 1300gp.
Does the purported 304gp gun work the same as the 1300gp weapon?
Does it have the same bonus to hit?
Can both be enchanted to +1?
304gp =/= 1300gp
The fixed gun is a MW pistol, it's worth 1300gp.
Here's the thing; the gunslinger isn't a lot of a class without a weapon. So part of the class is going to involve making sure the character has a firearm right out of the gate, but it has to be done in such a way that it doesn't break the economy stupidly. This far, it doesn't seem to do that. Your quirky, makeshift gun that you built out of spare parts is what you hit the road with. I've built decks in Magic that, statistically, shouldn't work and no one else can run them. But I can, and I'm the only one, and no it doesn't involve cheating. Likewise, this is something, as my players would say, that is "janky", slapped together and fit for little. It does the job, but its too much if a pain in the rear for anyone else.
1. They can still kill the gunslinger and take his gun, they just need access to a cantrip.And also need to be 4th or 9th level.
Mending = one object of up to 1lb/level
So, that's what, 20gp?
1/2 (Spell Level) * 4 (Caster Level) * 10gp?
A 0th level scroll at CL 4 is 50gp.
A 0th level wand at CL 4 is 1500 gold.
A handgun has 5 hp and 10 hardness (assuming it has the same general consistency as a dagger, which I'm guessing is likely).
Broken means it's at 2 hp (round down) and needs 3.
You could roll lucky. Or you could roll average, 2.5 round down, and have to spend 100g to get this handgun back to top shape.
Then it would still be worth 4d10 gold pieces.
The base gun would still only be worth 4 Thus it would be worth 304 gp, I covered this above.A MW gun is worth 1300gp.
Does the purported 304gp gun work the same as the 1300gp weapon?
Does it have the same bonus to hit?
Can both be enchanted to +1?
304gp =/= 1300gp
The fixed gun is a MW pistol, it's worth 1300gp.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
No.
EDIT: A masterwork gun is worth 1300gp.
The starting weapon is only worth 4d10 gold pieces.
When the starting weapon is upgraded to masterwork it is still worth 4d10 gp by direct reading of the rules. The 300gp consumed in the crafting process does not add directly to its cost. "This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap."
The Masterwork gun Inquestion still has the stipulation that It is broken no matter what in everyone elses hands but the gunslinger thus making it worth significantly less to anyone else who wants to use is so the base value is still 4d10+300. Now if the gunslinger wants to buy a new gun he will need to pay full price for it because it will no longer have the clause about no one else using it.
What is so hard to understand about this?
May I suggest the following to the devs instead?
Firearms in Your Campaign
Firearms and the gunslinger are not for every campaign, and even if you are excited about introducing firearms into your campaign, you should still make a decision of how commonplace they are. The following are broad categories of firearm rarity and the rules that govern them. The world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns.
No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign, simply do not allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.
Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced firearms, the gunslinger alternate class, the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—
rather than like things that are mass produced. Few know the strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the Gunsmithing feat. Multiply the cost of all guns and ammo by 8.
Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds or lone gunsmiths, a dwarven clan, or maybe even a nation or two, but the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Gunslingers must take the Craft Firearms feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and
wondrous items. Multiply the cost of all weapons and ammo by 4.
Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, all firearms are martial weapons. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this document are for this type of campaign. Advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost more to buy or craft.*
Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 1/2 of the cost listed in this document. The gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class ability at 1st level.
*We don't have the costs/rules for the advanced weapons just yet. So not sure how to modify this part.
Then,
cost of pistol : 250gp
cost of musket : 375gp
cost of powder : 2.5gp
cost of bullet : 25cp
The costs for an Emerging Guns campaign stay the same (and Paizo gets to keep their Inner Sea matching Ultimate Combat). However, the changes for the baseline gunslinger bring it in line with all the other classes by default.
If the gunslinger get's a 375gp weapon at first level, that's no worse than a wizard getting a 325gp weapon at start (MW item). Or anyone starting with heirloom weapon. No hokey rules required to do exception handling for making the gun MW later, you just buy a MW one later, like everyone else does, and you sell your starting pistol to some new gunslinger, like the fighter does with his weapon. The cost of powder and shot is still expensive, but not insanely so. The gunslinger's crafting ability (which should follow normal crafting rules) let's him make one shot for 92cp (or 9 silver) which is not outrageous, even at 1st level.
I hate seeing another class with hokey exception rules that don't follow the standard rules (crafting, weapons, etc).
The Masterwork gun Inquestion still has the stipulation that It is broken no matter what in everyone elses hands but the gunslinger thus making it worth significantly less to anyone else who wants to use is so the base value is still 4d10+300. Now if the gunslinger wants to buy a new gun he will need to pay full price for it because it will no longer have the clause about no one else using it.
What is so hard to understand about this?
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the
following additional benefit. You can use this feat to
repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs
300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork
firearm of its type.
You repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. What part of that is so hard to understand? It no longer has the 'broken' condition because it has been restored.
*We don't have the costs/rules for the advanced weapons just yet. So not sure how to modify this part.
Revolver, rifle, and shotgun are listed as advanced weapons in the PDF.
Other than that, I like your post.
*We don't have the costs/rules for the advanced weapons just yet. So not sure how to modify this part.Revolver, rifle, and shotgun are listed as advanced weapons in the PDF.
Other than that, I like your post.
yeah, I realized that after the post. :) Looking through them now. Honestly, it looks like all Early Firearms would get divided by four per my post above, and the advanced firearms would stay as they are on the chart. That would be a decent cost at common early firearms for a revolver (750gp) and 2000gp for a shotgun. Halved if 'guns are everywhere'.
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The Masterwork gun Inquestion still has the stipulation that It is broken no matter what in everyone elses hands but the gunslinger thus making it worth significantly less to anyone else who wants to use is so the base value is still 4d10+300. Now if the gunslinger wants to buy a new gun he will need to pay full price for it because it will no longer have the clause about no one else using it.
What is so hard to understand about this?
You repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. What part of that is so hard to understand? It no longer has the 'broken' condition because it has been restored.
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the
following additional benefit. You can use this feat to
repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs
300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork
firearm of its type.
No, that's not what it says. "Repair and restore" does not equal "removes the 'broken if others use it' trait".
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A MW gun is worth 1300gp.Does the purported 304gp gun work the same as the 1300gp weapon?
Does it have the same bonus to hit?
Can both be enchanted to +1?
304gp =/= 1300gp
The fixed gun is a MW pistol, it's worth 1300gp.
Lets presume thats correct, who cares.
Mechanically it changes nothing about how the character operates. If anything it removes a little bit of a safety net(less likely someone will shoot him with his own gun).So he can sell it. Great, you are now a gunslinger without a gun. Well done.
No, that's not what it says. "Repair and restore" does not equal "removes the 'broken if others use it' trait".
Then what do the words repair and restore mean, if not to repair and restore? Do they magically mean something different?
Your interpretation (and that's all it is until the Devs clear up this mess) is inconsistent with other uses of the word repair in the rules. The craft skill uses the term 'repair' for fixing a broken item. The spell mending uses the word repair to signify returning 1d4 hp and removing the broken condition if it's present.
Your interpretation of repair and restore not meaning to remove the broken condition has no precedent in the game, and additionally creates the unique situation of having a masterwork item that is already broken and can never be fixed.
Is the gunslinger to be as bad as the summoner about having rules exceptions to the plain usage of existing game terms? Is a gunslinger's repair and restore different than any other repair in the game? If so, I hope they just rip the stupid class up. I'm tired of base classes that have so many exceptions they are defined by them rather than by their abilities.
A MW gun is worth 1300gp.Does the purported 304gp gun work the same as the 1300gp weapon?
Does it have the same bonus to hit?
Can both be enchanted to +1?
304gp =/= 1300gp
The fixed gun is a MW pistol, it's worth 1300gp.
Lets presume thats correct, who cares.
Mechanically it changes nothing about how the character operates. If anything it removes a little bit of a safety net(less likely someone will shoot him with his own gun).So he can sell it. Great, you are now a gunslinger without a gun. Well done.
It has nothing to do with the sell price, it has to do with making exceptions to the rules rather than just using the rules. This is a balancing attempt that makes exceptions to core rules when there's no reason for it. Just adjust the prices, or just give him the 1000gp gun. Don't create an exception that only occurs once in his career, violates the crafting rules, and comes off as a cheesy way of balancing things rather than just working within the rules.
Consider this in actual play. Is it a weird loophole that you can get lots of money just from killing first level gunslingers? Yes. It it going to come into play? Probably not, unless the GM cooperates with you by throwing loads and loads of level 1 gunslingers your way even after you start exploiting them for easy cash. Fixing this inconsistency would just make it MORE complicated with little practical benefit, as this exploit only works with the combined efforts of the GM and the player.
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It has nothing to do with the sell price, it has to do with making exceptions to the rules rather than just using the rules. This is a balancing attempt that makes exceptions to core rules when there's no reason for it. Just adjust the prices, or just give him the 1000gp gun. Don't create an exception that only occurs once in his career, violates the crafting rules, and comes off as a cheesy way of balancing things rather than just working within the rules.
Ah I see where you're coming from now, but to me its a non-issue. It's just slightly weird and quirky, not exactly game breaking.
Modifying the cost would happen in a game with more common firearms, rather than emerging firearms, and giving the free 1000 gp gun has its own problems that were discussed to death, resurrected and then discussed to death a second time.Personally I like the idea of a gun (or any other device) thats quirky and only really works for its owner.
As for the roll free crafting feat. I don't really like it to be honest. I get why it's there (produce cheaper ammunition for character), but it does create a lot of bizarre problems. Maybe a lower DC for ammunition crafting, say maybe a DC 10 gun-smithing check, and keep the reduced crafting costs if you have the feat. Simply taking a ten should get this for most characters, especially if the feat grants a bonus to gun-smithing of some kind, such as a +2 maybe, or perhaps a bonus equal to their wisdom modifier, since its a key ability.
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ugh, this argument again. I am going to say this again for if people are playing in Golarian. Read the class description and read about Alkenster. They DON'T sell their guns and ammo so easily. Unless you are playing in guns are commonplace or guns are everywhere, the few guns that exist are jealously guarded and gunslingers don't like sharing the technology of how to make them or the ammo with others. They guard the secret of the gun as much as a wizard guards their spellbook. How do you stop gunslingers from selling their ammo so much? Enforce roleplaying your classes as they are described in the book. Those descriptions are not just fluff. They do actually mean something.
Anyone voicing this problem probably is either a min-maxer/munchkin, or has at least one in their group. As clichéd as it is, that kind of player is not known for their RP tendencies.
Otherwise that solution is(should be) a no-brainer.