By RAW, the Wizard gets his first spellbook for free, though I suppose that wouldn't make much sense from a roleplay perspective. Might have to buy one, but they are pretty cheap anyway.
I believe using an enemy's spellbook requires a Spellcraft check, but it would probably be easier to just copy down his spells - you'd just have to pay gold to do so.
Eschew Materials is a feat, and would therefore apply to any spells you ever cast. Carrying guano is just a matter of having a spell component pouch, but you won't ever need it anyway.
You still get all of the Wizard's free spells, as that ability is determined by class level, not character level.
I am not sure if you have to pay for the spellbook or not.
Yes your eschew materials work on any spell.
You get all the 1st level a wizard gets.
Now WHY do you want to multiclass and have a sorcerer/wizard?
Can you please explain what you mean by saying that the GM hates sorcerers? What exactly did he did/is he doing?
Sounds like a communication error, just ask your DM if you can retool the character as a wizard. If he doesn't let you do that, then just keep playing a sorcerer and don't bother with making the magic items. (or just make a few) It's one thing to help the DM out with playing the type of class he asks, but he shouldn't screw your ability to be useful and force you to multiclass, you deserve to have fun just as much as the others.
Now WHY do you want to multiclass and have a sorcerer/wizard?
Can you please explain what you mean by saying that the GM hates sorcerers? What exactly did he did/is he doing?We're 2nd, almost 3rd level, and he doesnt want me to create a new character, but keep playing this one, "for continuity's sake" (Im cool with that)
But he hates sorcerers; his idea of a mage (any mage) is all blast spells, magic item creation, and utility spells are on scrolls or items. And he feels that Sorcerers "get too many spells to cast, and not enough known". Which to me means he just hates the whole premise of the class.
Now why he didnt tell me to play a wizard in the first place, I dont know. Especially when he waited to say that it would be a low magic world til after we started.
So, I need to figure out what I get to start with, what I need to buy, and how much its going to cost in money and feats, since Im getting shoehorned into a class-switch. And having some "official ruling/RAW" is going to help, since this GM isnt willing to work with me. (he's demanding the change, but its "my fault" :roll: )Its not the switch that bothers me; I even have a fun storyline explenation for it. Its the fact that if he'd told me in the first place, this would have been unnecessary.
First of all about the "Sorcerers "get too many spells to cast, and not enough known"", this IS the deal with the sorcerer, always was always will be (although since APG a human sorcerer can do something about it), now what is exactly his prpblem with that case? i don't see in your post the problem that he has.
Also what are the problems that he causes you? Why don't continue with the sorcerer?Also why not just take 2 item creation feats with the sorcerer(i vote for wondrous items and arms and weapons for your friends)? Sure as a wizard you wouldn't have to pay those feats from your normal feats but it isn't like sorcerers are feat hungry (like bards are).
I will try not get into an arguement about blaster vs buff/debuff/b.controll caster yet.
Now WHY do you want to multiclass and have a sorcerer/wizard?
Can you please explain what you mean by saying that the GM hates sorcerers? What exactly did he did/is he doing?We're 2nd, almost 3rd level, and he doesnt want me to create a new character, but keep playing this one, "for continuity's sake" (Im cool with that)
But he hates sorcerers; his idea of a mage (any mage) is all blast spells, magic item creation, and utility spells are on scrolls or items. And he feels that Sorcerers "get too many spells to cast, and not enough known". Which to me means he just hates the whole premise of the class.
Now why he didnt tell me to play a wizard in the first place, I dont know. Especially when he waited to say that it would be a low magic world til after we started.
So, I need to figure out what I get to start with, what I need to buy, and how much its going to cost in money and feats, since Im getting shoehorned into a class-switch. And having some "official ruling/RAW" is going to help, since this GM isnt willing to work with me. (he's demanding the change, but its "my fault" :roll: )Its not the switch that bothers me; I even have a fun storyline explenation for it. Its the fact that if he'd told me in the first place, this would have been unnecessary.
He should have spoken up earlier. I wouldn't switch, and a DM has no place telling how to play your character not to the extent of how to build it anyway.
i don't see in your post the problem that he has.IDK. His problem is he doesnt like them; he wants a wizard. I said he should have said so. He told me to change it, but doesnt want me to make a new character, just multiclass this one.
Also what are the problems that he causes you? Why don't continue with the sorcerer?he's insisting I multiclass to wizard because he personally doesnt like sorcerers.
He wants me slogging around a spell book he can screw with, Im sure (old school mentality) Wants me making and hauling scrolls (easiest way to retcon a plot hole: tonight you pen a scroll from the spell you 'happened to find' to fix GM screw-up)
You know, plot train. But most DMs are at least decent enough to warn you your buying a ticket and drop some hints on whi9ch way the tracks are heading. With this guy, Im running blind.
But its time with my best friend and both our sons, without one of us Dming, so I'll jump through the hoops.Nope, don't multiclass. He can let you change the class to a wizard or deal with it.
i don't see in your post the problem that he has.IDK. His problem is he doesnt like them; he wants a wizard. I said he should have said so. He told me to change it, but doesnt want me to make a new character, just multiclass this one.
Also what are the problems that he causes you? Why don't continue with the sorcerer?he's insisting I multiclass to wizard because he personally doesnt like sorcerers.
He wants me slogging around a spell book he can screw with, Im sure (old school mentality) Wants me making and hauling scrolls (easiest way to retcon a plot hole: tonight you pen a scroll from the spell you 'happened to find' to fix GM screw-up)
You know, plot train. But most DMs are at least decent enough to warn you your buying a ticket and drop some hints on whi9ch way the tracks are heading. With this guy, Im running blind.
But its time with my best friend and both our sons, without one of us Dming, so I'll jump through the hoops.
It seems that my mind can't process that.
He tells you that he doesn't want you to play a sorcerer but he didn't tell you so from the start?He tells you how you should play your character?
He orders you to play a wizard?
He doesn't allow you to make a make a wizard or at least retcon your sorcerer and just say that he was a wizard all along?
He wants you to essentially "drop" two levels?
If i get all of the above correct i would do 3 things, first i would talk to the DM and see if i got something wrong.
If i didn't got anything wrong and understood everything correctly i would talk to him and make him understand that the things that he asks are @#$&%!)^#@$@.
If he didn't then i would start running away like a whole army was chasing me.
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The spell level hit is going to suck a little bit though. You will not get second level spells till level 5 (as a 2 Sorc/3 Wizard) and the big "blasty" third level spells will not come until level 7, where you would normally be getting 4th level spells.
It would be better to have the character re-written as a Wizard with the same spells currently known in his spell book, and go from there. Otherwise you will always be behind on what he thinks is the proper mage.
BTW, from what I understand, a Sorcerer is actually closer to his idea of a mage then a standard Wizard is. Your spells known can be all blast spells, while the utility spells will be ones that you buy on scrolls.
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But he hates sorcerers; his idea of a mage (any mage) is all blast spells, magic item creation, and utility spells are on scrolls or items. And he feels that Sorcerers "get too many spells to cast, and not enough known". Which to me means he just hates the whole premise of the class.
If you're cool with it, ok.
But if he hates the premise of the class to the degree that you're finding it necessary to make a really poor type of multi-class character, then he should just not have sorcs in his gameworld. And tell you before character creation. As it is, your character is going to have a lot of specific first level spells, but won't be able to do any item creation (other than scrolls until 5th char level (assuming you're taking wizard at 3rd rather than 4th).
Again, if you're cool with it, enjoy. If the campaign is low powered, then a multi-class arcanist may be a good thing anyway.
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i don't see in your post the problem that he has.IDK. His problem is he doesnt like them; he wants a wizard. I said he should have said so. He told me to change it, but doesnt want me to make a new character, just multiclass this one.
Also what are the problems that he causes you? Why don't continue with the sorcerer?he's insisting I multiclass to wizard because he personally doesnt like sorcerers.
He wants me slogging around a spell book he can screw with, Im sure (old school mentality) Wants me making and hauling scrolls (easiest way to retcon a plot hole: tonight you pen a scroll from the spell you 'happened to find' to fix GM screw-up)
You know, plot train. But most DMs are at least decent enough to warn you your buying a ticket and drop some hints on whi9ch way the tracks are heading. With this guy, Im running blind.
But its time with my best friend and both our sons, without one of us Dming, so I'll jump through the hoops.It seems that my mind can't process that.
He tells you that he doesn't want you to play a sorcerer but he didn't tell you so from the start?
He tells you how you should play your character?
He orders you to play a wizard?
He doesn't allow you to make a make a wizard or at least retcon your sorcerer and just say that he was a wizard all along?
He wants you to essentially "drop" two levels?
If i get all of the above correct i would do 3 things, first i would talk to the DM and see if i got something wrong.
If i didn't got anything wrong and understood everything correctly i would talk to him and make him understand that the things that he asks are @#$&%!)^#@$@.
If he didn't then i would start running away like a whole army was chasing me.
Let this be a lesson to any DM who says "well a player has never left my game." A player not leaving may just mean he is willing to put up with crap the rest of us are not. I think I have to list this post.
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Are you a human arcane sorcerer? because if you are, then you can get nearly all the spells you need a caster level for using all the bonus spells and expanded arcana feat, and you can take item creation feats to make the ones you don't.
Having that aside. I am going to go a step further than the others here and ask tat you address the GM with a more serious tone. This is your first experience with him running / this group. I think you have shown amazing patience to literally service the group's needs. But if the GM is going to try and control what you can play, how you can play it, and how you can build it....then he wants you to play an NPC for him, and that isn't fair, it isn't fun, and it isn't something that any player should stand for. Perhaps the GM is new at this. Regardless, the GM's behavior is unacceptable, and should be called out immediately, or he will continue to behave this way. It also sets a poor example for the new players, thinking that this is the way the group goes...the GM just tells you what to do, and when to do it. So take a moment to remind the group that regardless of who GMs...you are all still a group and need to play together...not against each other, and not controlling each other.
I have seen too many groups like this in my decades of playing rpgs...the sooner the behave is addressed and modified, the happier the entire group becomes, and the more fun the game is (regardless of what system you choose to play).
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This is a good example of how to teach new players how to properly deal with gaming group problems and problem GM's. I would have a talk to the GM and explain your problem and work with him to figure out a good solution that will work in his world, and still be fun for you as a player. We can throw ideas at you all day long, and help with the RAW of multiclassing as a sorc/wizard, but in the end, it is between you and the GM as to what you get for free for going that route (spellbook, etc.). For all we know, he may not want you to get the spell book for free, since it is a kind of expensive "magic" item.
Now, by RAW, I think that you get the spell book for free. It is assuming that you had a teacher and have been building the spell book over time while you learned how to be a wizard.
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Let this be a lesson to any DM who says "well a player has never left my game." A player not leaving may just mean he is willing to put up with crap the rest of us are not. I think I have to list this post.It seems that my mind can't process that.
He tells you that he doesn't want you to play a sorcerer but he didn't tell you so from the start?
He tells you how you should play your character?
He orders you to play a wizard?
He doesn't allow you to make a make a wizard or at least retcon your sorcerer and just say that he was a wizard all along?
He wants you to essentially "drop" two levels?
If i get all of the above correct i would do 3 things, first i would talk to the DM and see if i got something wrong.
If i didn't got anything wrong and understood everything correctly i would talk to him and make him understand that the things that he asks are @#$&%!)^#@$@.
If he didn't then i would start running away like a whole army was chasing me.
Yes it should be and please go ahead and list it.
Orrrr... quit. That doesn't sound fun. Doesn't indicate that it's going to be fun to be in this GMs game.
Or is it a friend? Explain to him that it's not fun being his NPC. The greatest asset to tabletop RPGs is the vast amount of autonomy afforded to all the players (including the GM). In fact everyone should be allowed the same amount of creativity (including the GM).
I might be willing to constrain to some very specific character creation guidelines for storyline or campaign reasons, but certainly not without being well-aware of the reason, and definitely not for the reason you've been given.
I have four suggested routes:
1) He wants "all blast spells, magic item creation, and utility spells are on scrolls or items." - Point out that the magic item creation rules let you create items you don't have the spells for (except for wands and scrolls), so you can still craft everything (just with a limited set of self-crafted utility scrolls) and be what he wants.
2) Show up with a character remade with similar stats, the same equipment, the same or more skills, and all the sorc levels replaced by wizard levels. In character, nothing's changed. Thus continuity. Your stats may not be ideal for a wizard, but hopefully they're not so bad you can't cope.
3) Build for the prestige class from one of the 3.5 complete books which was for multiclassed sorcerers/wizards.
4) Start multiclassing as a wizard, as he wants. Take no blasting spells whatsoever. Load up on the enchantments, buff spells, divinations, etc.
Personally, I like 2 the best, followed by 4.
1) He wants "all blast spells, magic item creation, and utility spells are on scrolls or items." - Point out that the magic item creation rules let you create items you don't have the spells for (except for wands and scrolls), so you can still craft everything (just with a limited set of self-crafted utility scrolls) and be what he wants.
Bobson is right you can craft anything without having the spells (by taking +5 to the crafting DC), this rule don't apply to scrolls, wands (i want to say staves but i am not sure) and spell completition and spell trigger items in general.
3) Build for the prestige class from one of the 3.5 complete books which was for multiclassed sorcerers/wizards.
Oh the ultimate magus PrC (the book is the complete mage i think), i love this PrC, although i never got the chance to play one.
Oh the ultimate magus PrC (the book is the complete mage i think), i love this PrC, although i never got the chance to play one.
3) Build for the prestige class from one of the 3.5 complete books which was for multiclassed sorcerers/wizards.
That was it! Thanks. After all, if the GM is such a stickler for RAW, RAW is that 3.5 is compatible and can be used.
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That was it! Thanks. After all, if the GM is such a stickler for RAW, RAW is that 3.5 is compatible and can be used.Coolies. I'll see If I can fly with that.
Dave, just to keep you from getting a misunderstanding in what is already a situation ripe for misunderstanding, there is no universal assumption either in PF nor in 3.5 that a GM/DM must permit a particular prestige class, which is what Bobson's statement above sounds like to me. Your GM might allow it or might now; excluding pre-PF 3.5 content seems to be rather common, in any case.
Im less worried about optimization than understanding the new rules for multiclassing (new to PF)
I think the biggest thing that hasn't been talked about (although I alluded to it earlier) is that caster level doesn't stack between the two classes. This has two impacts: You spells will do less damage if the damage is based on CL, and you will qualify for magic item creation feats later than otherwise. Both of these seem contra-indicated for what your DM has as his preconception about what an arcane caster is supposed to do.
Dave, just to keep you from getting a misunderstanding in what is already a situation ripe for misunderstanding, there is no universal assumption either in PF nor in 3.5 that a GM/DM must permit a particular prestige class, which is what Bobson's statement above sounds like to me. Your GM might allow it or might now; excluding pre-PF 3.5 content seems to be rather common, in any case.That was it! Thanks. After all, if the GM is such a stickler for RAW, RAW is that 3.5 is compatible and can be used.Coolies. I'll see If I can fly with that.
Thanks for clarifying that - I didn't mean to imply that all 3.5 content was automatically legal (I don't allow it myself, until I've had a chance to review and convert it), and the only explicit reference in the rulebook is in the intro from Jason. That being said, it's in line with the other suggestions I had for subverting the GM's requirement - technically, RAW is that it's compatible, but like any game, the GM approves each book (or section thereof).
I think the biggest thing that hasn't been talked about (although I alluded to it earlier) is that caster level doesn't stack between the two classes.
If you end up having to do go ahead this way, I'd suggest taking Additional Traits feat, and take Magical Knack (Wizard) for +2 caster level (limited by your HD), plus whatever other trait you'd like.
Although personally I use Magic Rating, so the caster levels would stack.
Personally, I feel your DM is being a jerk for being so inflexible.
But I have always felt that while wizards HAVE magic, sorcerers ARE magic.
So on that note:
"BEHOLD!! for through my sorcerous arts I have created the greatest of magic items. MYSELF!! Yes this intelligent magic item is the answer to our partys arcane needs. Watch in amazement as it casts spells of many levels. Wonder in awe as it renews its own charges. Gasp in disbelief for this is also an INTELLIGENT item, capable of reasoning solutions to the party's predicaments!"
Im trying to play nice here, and willing to bend. None of this was a big deal, and really no skin off my nose; Im stoked I get to play instead of GM. I dont want to be a jerk, and I dont know PF rules well yet.
Ive got a GM being a dink, but thats not a big deal. It gets too bad, I can either fight back, take over, or walk away. Right now, Im happy with the talk, haggle, and behave approach. But I need more knowledge of the rules.
In 3.X Id just "poof" and be a wiz with all the goodies of a 1st level except the gold and 4x skill-points. Some power loss, but there's ways to get around that rather easily, especially this early in the game.
What about PF? Is it the same in that all Im really losing is some gold (no biggie) and the 4x skill points; everything else works as if Im starting a level 1 Wiz?
Or do I have to actually pay for the arcane bond/familiar, buy my spells and book, miss out on the specialization etc?
It's very much the same, except easier. You don't miss out on the 4x skill points, because you don't get that anyway. You do miss out on the maximized hit die. Otherwise, you get exactly what any character taking that class as their first level would get, and have to make the same decisions one would have to make. The two things that are really different are multiclassing experience penalties (there aren't any) and favored class (you'll stop getting your bonus each level, unless the GM lets you switch it or you're a half elf).
It's your character. Play it the way you like. If the GM thinks you are doing it wrong, offer him your chair. (as in, Leave the Game)
Let the GM kill your character. Oops. My Bad. Here's my new Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Non-Arcane Character. :)
My point is, if he wanted you to play *this Character* he should have been explicit in his request. He should have told you about his preference and expectations ahead of time.
Keep the Sorc and blast away. :)
YOUR DECISION IS ALL THAT MATTERS!
(Except that you are 'teaching' the younglings to play with style and panache ;) )
GNOME
Meh, tell him no. What's he going to do, kill your character? :P
This.
Then make a Witch.
Oh. I thought elves were still wiz favored anyway.
Yay
No favored class rules have changed in pathfinder.
Bad GM is bad.
Offense 1: Not telling people that he is running a game contrary to core. (Low magic is a HUGE change, it's the equivalent of hosting a game of WH40K and saying "Oh, at my table, enhancements to units cost double, no matter what the rulebooks say, and no, I don't care that you have an army utterly dependent on enhanced units. Sucks to be you.")
Offense 2: Not telling you he has issue with a class, and later penalizing you for it.
Offense 3: Demanding a player builds a character as HE wants it to be.
Offense 4: Not letting you re-tool a character after HE demands it. Multiclassing a spellcaster is downright optimization harakiri.
Tell him that either you get to fully retool your character, or you keep playing it and ignore him. Players control their characters 100%, otherwise, there is little to no reason for you to play.
If my GM demanded that I dip aristocrat with my paladin because he was the son of a high noble, I would laugh and think he was joking. As I am sure any player would if I did the same to them.
Bad GM is bad.
Offense 1: Not telling people that he is running a game contrary to core. (Low magic is a HUGE change, it's the equivalent of hosting a game of WH40K and saying "Oh, at my table, enhancements to units cost double, no matter what the rulebooks say, and no, I don't care that you have an army utterly dependent on enhanced units. Sucks to be you.")
Offense 2: Not telling you he has issue with a class, and later penalizing you for it.
Offense 3: Demanding a player builds a character as HE wants it to be.
Offense 4: Not letting you re-tool a character after HE demands it. Multiclassing a spellcaster is downright optimization harakiri.
Tell him that either you get to fully retool your character, or you keep playing it and ignore him. Players control their characters 100%, otherwise, there is little to no reason for you to play.
If my GM demanded that I dip aristocrat with my paladin because he was the son of a high noble, I would laugh and think he was joking. As I am sure any player would if I did the same to them.
1)I don't think that this DM runs a low fantasy world (which means less gold) just that it would be harder to find magic items.(yes i know it doesn't make much sense but that's the impression i got)
2)I don't that dave.gillam told us of any penalty that this DM imposed on him, he just told him to stop playing a sorcerer and play a wizard.
I really can't understand why he is doing no.4.
What a train wreck. Train being an appropriate term since I got some railroad vibes from the descriptions.
Anyway, I'm late for the party, so here comes the flood.
1: This game doesn't sound like fun. You know best whether it's fun to play, but if not, you might want to think about leaving that game again. I personally think that not playing at all is better than playing in a crappy game where I'm not having fun. So with that stuff, I'd try to talk to the guy, and if he remains stubborn, I'd tell him to have a nice life.
2: Sorcerer/Wizards: Even without a GM gleefully waiting to have a goblin take a piss on your spellbook, this combination is all kinds of bad. The classes complement themselves about as well as an economics degree and fighting a rabid bear. Especially since sorcerers tend to be the pretty boys, not necessarily the brainiacs. How smart is your character?
I'm bringing this up because when you want to turn into a wizard mid-career, you suddenly need intelligence. You might be entitled to all the free spells a level 1 wizard gets, but you still cast off int by now. I don't know about you, but when I play a sorcerer, they usually have an intelligence of 10. Rarely would they have more than 12.
Int 10 means no wizard magic beyond cantrips! And even if you have something like 13, a wizard (especially a blaster wizard, or anyone who wants to hex enemies in any way) needs all the int he can get, so his spells succeed more often than not.
So you'll be a wizard that lags behind several levels (meaning you'll have to wait forever to get to the good stuff), doesn't really get anything worthwhile out of this lag (a wizard/mage, for example, could get some combat feats, more HP, better attack bonuses, and so on, which is at least some consolation, and could be useful if you want to be a battle mage. A wizard sorcerer gets some extra 1st-level spells with a really s!+#ty caster level, which become more or less useless a couple of levels from now), and is severely handicapped in the intelligence section (I assume - I don't think many sorcerers have int 16+ "just because")
3: Mages = blasters and item crafters? Whiskey Tango Foxtrott? Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those guys who foams at the mouth at the mere mention of evocation magic, continuously screaming "IF YOU USE FIREBALL, THEN YOU ARE A FAILURE AT LIFE AND SHOULDN'T PLAY RPGs!!!!!!!!!!!!"
But only blasting magic is not really the wizard's thing. You go sorcerer if you want that (and even they can branch out). Being a wizard means having lots of different spells, only some of which are blaster spells.
Item Crafting is nice, and can be a great boost for the party, but only if the player wants to do it. Just like everything else. Only jerks force stuff on other players. This doesn't sound like the normal sort of persuasion people employ when they want someone to play the cleric.
Anyway, this requires some downtime, of course, since you can't just buy anything.
Also, if you're missing three caster levels and the lag in spell acquisition that brings, you're not just a crappy wizard, but also a crappy item crafter. All that crafting requires caster levels.
In conclusion: Unless you're positively ecstatic with the idea of playing a sorcerer/wizard, I just wouldn't do it. Either stick to the sorcerer until the GM kills him off and then introduce a wizard, or, which is what I'd do, leave the game. Life's too short to play under that guy's Regime.
Which Greek God?
I'm telling you.
This is a perfect opportunity to play a Witch.
Which Greek God?just an expression
i had all 16s-18s before he nerfed me.
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrGGGGGGGGGGGGG
I don't even know where to begin but let's just say that he was unjust.
Which Greek God?just an expression
i had all 16s-18s before he nerfed me.Then why not simply change all your sorcerer levels into wizard levels?
-James
Because his DM wants him to multiclass to wizard (and nobody seems to be able to understand why).
Well gentlemen, Ive sorta had my question answered, and we keep getting into the same circle of questions where Im required to read another's mind. So I guess we're done here.
Thanks Bobson and Majuba. You've both been a big help.
Be sure to let us know how things turn out.