So I see that the official website for Sinister Adventures has expired. It even looks like it is for sale or able to be registered.
So does this signify to us who have ordered products that have been in production for 3 years that we will never see them? How are we supposed to track it, or contact anyone there if we have no way of getting in touch with them?
A lot of people have been getting upset and angry, but I have been quietly waiting, hoping that one day I will see the adventure I paid for and that it would be worth it in the end, but now it looks like I have been a fool.
Hit the Jaws theme music....
So I see that the official website for Sinister Adventures has expired. It even looks like it is for sale or able to be registered.
I can't speak for his site, but pretty much every site I have tried to visit where the domain has expired has that for sale or register stuff on it, whether the domain expired an hour, a day or a month ago. It is just a part of the default page that is posted by the company the domain was registered through.
Nick hasn't been able to be bothered to handle anything leading up to this. The Sinister forums were overtaken by spambots. He checked in maybe once every three months - and that's a generous estimate - to say "Hi everybody, bye!" and not respond to any queries.
I put in a lot of uncompensated time to proof Razor Coast because I believed in the product and wanted Sinister to succeed. But in the end, you can't make someone act responsibly if they don't want to. I have no expectation Razor Coast will ever emerge or that Nick will take care of his Web site or, indeed, anything else.
Yeah, Nick promised refunds to those of us who pre-ordered Ebon Shroud, guaranteeing we'd have them over three or four weeks ago. Since then, nothing. No refund, no information.
We've been waiting for Razor Coast for, what, two years? Longer? And so far, nothing. If it wasn't for all the hard work that Louis Agresta and his team had put in over the last 12-18 months, then it never would have even gotten to the stage it has (ie finished bar layout and release, AFAIK). I know Louis has been very loyal to Nick, but personally I think it would be a real slap in the face to all his hard work and placating the Sinister community not to release it now, to say nothing of those of us who have been waiting for so long.
And now even the webiste has gone.
So no product, no refund, no information, and now no site. The words 'ripped off' are starting to come to mind.
I'm a huge Nic Logue fan...but honestly the words coming to my mind are a fair bit harsher.
Just so irresponsible; how can anyone consider themselves a professional when there appears to be no consideration for ones customer and audience?
Like I said, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but now it just seems like there was no intention to deliver as promised at all.
Maybe a class-action lawsuit would get his attention?
My father had a saying, cleaned up for language, went:
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Well, I am now shamed, as this makes twice that I have bought into a pre-order and it has not been delivered. I'm out $55 (20 first time, 35 to Nic). Lesson learned. Never again.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Like I said, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but now it just seems like there was no intention to deliver as promised at all.
Maybe a class-action lawsuit would get his attention?
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Disclaimer...I don't have this pre-ordered, so I'm really just talking about something I don't have a stake in...
Frankly, at this point, I think the honorable thing to do after a three year wait would be to refund all pre-orders, deliver the manuscript as a PDF to everyone who pre-ordered immediately, and ship the book/final PDF when it is entirely finished.
Well, I am now shamed, as this makes twice that I have bought into a pre-order and it has not been delivered. I'm out $55 (20 first time, 35 to Nic). Lesson learned. Never again.The best pre-orders are those that don't take your money until they ship the product.
+1
I love this [place]! /Yakov Smirnoff
Frankly, at this point, I think the honorable thing to do after a three year wait would be to refund all pre-orders, deliver the manuscript as a PDF to everyone who pre-ordered immediately, and ship the book/final PDF when it is entirely finished.
Well, I'd be happy just to get a book, but now that the website is no longer up I doubt that will ever happen.
I don't want my pre-order money back. I want a PFRPG copy (print and pdf) of Razor Coast.
I'm patient and willing to wait.
So Lou, do you know if the SA website will come back or is Nick just going to chuck everything? Inquireing minds would like to know. I mean most of us paid good money for a product, and the most any of was a Alpha version of Razor Coast in Novemeber of 2009.
So the only word of anything has been from you...
I mean we would love to here from Nick.
I don't want my pre-order money back. I want a PFRPG copy (print and pdf) of Razor Coast.
I'm patient and willing to wait.
+1
Contributor
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So Lou, do you know if the SA website will come back or is Nick just going to chuck everything? Inquireing minds would like to know. I mean most of us paid good money for a product, and the most any of was a Alpha version of Razor Coast in Novemeber of 2009.
So the only word of anything has been from you...
I mean we would love to here from Nick.
Haven't heard anything, sorry. Truth to tell, I fired off a bunch of emails but haven't followed up with a phone call. I'll also encourage Nick to come to this thread, but last time I had my hand jammed up there I just couldn't get the puppet to respond.
Seriously, though, I'll fight for this but I just don't have any control or authority. I can promise that if/when I hear anything I will post it.
Thanks Lou! I hate that you are placed in the middle of this, but I really appreciate your updates.
Let's hope for the best.
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You've built up a lot of goodwill Louis. This wasn't your burden and you've taken it on, and it's much appreciated. Can you provide the link to your current project? the one with the fantastic maps? I'd like to sign on as a patron for that project, based on your forthrightness here, as well as your fantastic work with the Great City stuff (i highly recommend it to anyone who is running an urban campaign).
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You've built up a lot of goodwill Louis. This wasn't your burden and you've taken it on, and it's much appreciated. Can you provide the link to your current project? the one with the fantastic maps? I'd like to sign on as a patron for that project, based on your forthrightness here, as well as your fantastic work with the Great City stuff (i highly recommend it to anyone who is running an urban campaign).
I would as well, and I remember fondly some of your past writing.
Haven't heard anything, sorry. Truth to tell, I fired off a bunch of emails but haven't followed up with a phone call. I'll also encourage Nick to come to this thread, but last time I had my hand jammed up there I just couldn't get the puppet to respond.
Seriously, though, I'll fight for this but I just don't have any control or authority. I can promise that if/when I hear anything I will post it.
Louis--
Feel free to tell Nick to contact me. Depending on the financials, I might be willing to take Razor Coast on board as an Adamant product, honoring all pre-orders and any outstanding debts in return for the complete rights.
He can email me at gms@adamantentertainment.com
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You've built up a lot of goodwill Louis. This wasn't your burden and you've taken it on, and it's much appreciated. Can you provide the link to your current project? the one with the fantastic maps? I'd like to sign on as a patron for that project, based on your forthrightness here, as well as your fantastic work with the Great City stuff (i highly recommend it to anyone who is running an urban campaign).I would as well, and I remember fondly some of your past writing.
Gaming Paper Kickstarter Project
Unfortunately, I think you are too late to join. It has already been funded and as I seem unable to increase my level of support I would guess its also closed to new "patrons."
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Aww, thanks y'all! *blush*
That really means a lot to me. I'm touched and glad you've liked some of my stuff. I brought Rone Barton (aka The Jade) onto the Gaming Paper Adventures piece to co-write it with me, because I love the way our brains ping off each other.
My understanding is that after our adventure is out Monte Cook, Steven Schend, Brian Cortijo, Wolfgang Baur and others will write additional adventures using parts of the same Chris West map. The darn thing is 7' x 9' or thereabouts, so plenty of room. I'm really excited about it.
Anyway, I reached out for Erik Baur of Gaming Paper to see if there is anything he can do to honor your requests and good will. No promises, but I'm hoping...
And like I said, your support means a lot to me, so thanks again!
You know at first I was against the idea of Nick selling it. Now I just want it to get done and if selling it would get me my copy I am for it now.
+1
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Haven't heard anything, sorry. Truth to tell, I fired off a bunch of emails but haven't followed up with a phone call. I'll also encourage Nick to come to this thread, but last time I had my hand jammed up there I just couldn't get the puppet to respond.
Seriously, though, I'll fight for this but I just don't have any control or authority. I can promise that if/when I hear anything I will post it.
Louis--
Feel free to tell Nick to contact me. Depending on the financials, I might be willing to take Razor Coast on board as an Adamant product, honoring all pre-orders and any outstanding debts in return for the complete rights.
He can email me at gms@adamantentertainment.com
I'll definitely let him know.
Hi Everyone!
Sorry the site is out of action! I am having some trouble getting it up and running and I'm also updating it for the endgame of Sinister as a sinking ship with just two products (and one wave of Indulgences left to come).
Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!
Nick
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Hi Everyone!
Sorry the site is out of action! I am having some trouble getting it up and running and I'm also updating it for the endgame of Sinister as a sinking ship with just two products (and one wave of Indulgences left to come).
Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!
Nick
Still don't want a refund, still willing to wait for Razor Coast.
Still don't want a refund, still willing to wait for Razor Coast.
What Dark_Mistress said.
Still don't want a refund, still willing to wait for Razor Coast.
Ditto. If I have any virtues, it's certain that patience has never been one of themm. However, if Razor Coast is still coming at some point, I'd rather have the finished product than a refund.
I mean, if I got a refund I'd probably just waste it on something frivolous and transitory, like food. Game products last a lot longer and are therefore a better investment.
Lou asked me to post here. If anyone is interested in changing their contributor level for Gaming Paper Adventures please send me a message. Thanks for letting me know Lou!
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I've attempted to contact Nick several times now to request a refund on Ebon Shroud, on 3/06 and on 3/09, at both nflogue@hotmail.com and at loguen@essex.ac.uk (actually it was a total of 4 attempts), and I've received no response.Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!
Nick
Strangely, I was coming to give this thread a bump.
So, Nic...
1) how is Razor Coast coming and when are we going to see it released? I see no reason why this hasn't been put out already.
2) how are you getting on with the refunds for Ebon Shroud? I still don't have mine.
3) How are you getting on with resurrecting your website?
It really is about time you dealt with these issues. Of course, if you dealt with the first two questions, the third would be moot.
Have to say I was really looking forward to the SA sci-fi stuff. Here's hoping that stuff gets resurrected somehow. Love Mr. Logue's stuff... [edit: absolutely impossible that I could have used the non-word "stuff" more times in one paragraph!]
@Krome: Responding to your threadjack...I wish I knew. Liz Courts contacted me back in November asking about maps and I offered to make some for peanuts (or even a few for free until the ball got rolling) but never heard back. Followed up with a couple of messages but nothing. Still would be willing to help it go...
RE: Sci-Fi Pathfinder, dang, but so was I. Infinite Futures was not what I was hoping for, and I haven't seen anything else out there yet which scratches the itch. My plate is full, or I'd just start working on it. :/
@Krome: Responding to your threadjack...
@mearrin69: Responding to your continued threadjack-- I'm not with AQ, but may have use for a cartographer. Can you shoot me an email at bmcfarland@koboldquarterly.com if you've got room in your schedule?
Thanks,
-Ben.
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Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!
Nick
I've attempted to contact Nick several times now to request a refund on Ebon Shroud, on 3/06 and on 3/09, at both nflogue@hotmail.com and at loguen@essex.ac.uk (actually it was a total of 4 attempts), and I've received no response.
Still no response from Nick.
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Nick Logue has been promising that any customer that wanted a refund for pre-orders of Razor Coast or Ebon Shroud (or any of his other promised, but non-existent titles) would get their money back.
I'm calling him out.
I contacted Nick by e-mail at loguen@essex.ac.uk multiple times since March 6th to obtain a refund for Ebon Shroud. There's been no refund, or even any acknowledgment from him that he was working on the problem (for nearly three weeks). I have made 5 separate follow-up attempts to contact him about this matter.
Here's what Nick had to say on March 7th:
Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!
Nick
As a result of Nick's lack of response, I'd decided to also ask for a refund on Razor Coast (I e-mailed him on 3/22). It's only been six days but, of course, there has also been no response.
I understand that that there's a lot involved in producing a quality gaming product. I can understand how, even with the best of intentions, some products would just never materialize.
However, Nick accepted money for these non-existent products. Also, the work involved in issuing a refund would seem to be a lot less daunting than publishing one of these titles.
I can accept an endless stream of excuses as to why a product couldn't be completed, but why can't a refund be completed? Just how much slogging and looking up order histories is really involved? I was able to find all of the relevant e-mails from Sinister Adventures from 08/30/09 with about 6 seconds of "slogging" on my part. I even quoted the body of those e-mails in my messages to Nick.
So, Nick, where's my money?
So, Nick, where's my money?
+1.
Seriously Nick this is more than unprofessional. Get to work on those refunds already!
And please consider taking up Adamant on their offer...
So, "X" number of people pre-ordered Razor Coast (Pathfinder edition) and now "Y" number of people have asked for refunds.
How closely does Y need to approach X before the product becomes unprintable? Or to ask another way, how many mule-headed holdouts like me are needed, not asking for refunds, to give this thing any chance of eventually seeing the light of day?