So, I'm sure that this has been asked a lot, but what do you do when a character dies and they make a new character? Do you have them come back in at the same level or at a lower level? What do you do with the dead characters wealth?
I allow the players to decide what happens to the dead characters wealth, if they want to keep it or sell it for profit I'm fine with it. Anyone coming in with a new character starts at the same level with the exact same amount of xp, equipped for a character of his level. I see no reason to further penalize someone who has already lost a character.
I allow the players to decide what happens to the dead characters wealth, if they want to keep it or sell it for profit I'm fine with it. Anyone coming in with a new character starts at the same level with the exact same amount of xp, equipped for a character of his level. I see no reason to further penalize someone who has already lost a character.
Same here for the same reason.
How is the party's current wealth? If it's on the high side already you might consider lowering their haul for a bit.
Sorry I didn't say, I'm actually setting up house rules pre campaign at the moment and I'm wondering the best way to do it so I can present the final decisions up front.
The raise dead spell gives 2 permanent negative levels, and I have had players make new characters due to that. So I was thinking of making the new characters come in at one or even two levels lower, but allowing them to gain xp faster till they caught up. This will hopefully make their choice of giving up on their character harder. This is a standard magic wise game, so raise dead should be reasonably available at some of the lower levels. The problem of giving full treasure equal to their old character's level is that the new pc has free rain over everything he wants to buy. Most Pcs will have a good deal of things they found, and I'm not a supporter of magical walmart. Making the treasure equal to the new character's level might help with this... maybe?...Hmmm...
After doing some digging I found some old ad&d or hack master sheets that have a will regarding their wealth and gear when the character dies. This might be interesting to include... nothing but the law preventing pc's looting fallen friends bodies...
Thoughts?/other good advice on the topic? I'm far from setting anything in this post into stone, and I'd love to hear more.
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I used to be pretty adamant about character death being burdensome and potentially permanent but I'm coming around to the other way.
Having a new character come on-board who is two full levels or even one full level behind the party is going to make for an unhappy player and a weak character. Not a fun situation.
In our game everyone is the same level, all the time. If you miss 3 sessions you still level. I just don't like having people fall behind. They still fall behind a bit because they don't get as much treasure but it's not as bad. If a character dies generally the group chips in to pay for rezzing and Restoration to bring the character back to the right level. I try and make it as workable as possible.
Ultimately, the idea is to have fun. Being the henchman because you are so far behind the group is just not as fun.
Some of my favorite methods:
1. Wills. My characters write wills to say what to do with their stuff. The other players don't have to follow them, since my death would be in the middle of nowhere, but if you have a Paladin in your party that should not be an issue.
2. Anklets of Explodie: On death your stuff explodes. All PCs wear them. GM did this after 1 player died every week. The other players were fine, but he just kept suiciding.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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How big a problem this becomes has a lot to do with how often a PC dies. If it's only occasionally, it's generally not a big deal, but with more frequent deaths, it can be, especially if it's a near TPK, and the sole survivor gets the gear of all the dead PCs.
I've used a few different options in the past to deal with this issue.
1) Viking burial - when appropriate for the character and culture, had their equipment burried, burned, or sunk with their body.
2) For divine or particularly devout characters, have their body rise into the air and dissapear in a flash of light, along with their primary equipment (excluding mundane stuff and 'party' items they were carrying), as their god brought them directly into their divine realm in a miracle. In a few centuries, they could even become a saint.
3) For higher level PCs, have the survivors need/want to use the value of the gear as a large bribe to a kingdom or city for a boon. With high level PCs often having six figure wealth levels, when a few die, that can easily fund paying off a government to put their army into the field, etc.
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I could explain one thing I said about. Coming back a level lower. I give out mostly the same xp to everyone, based on the huighest level person. after the game goes on a little while, even someon who was two levels behind ends up just a session behind.
I don't know that there is a 'right' way. Whatever works with you and your group, there are a lot of way you can make it work.
As I mentioned above lately I pretty much ignore experience and level the group as it works for the campaign so your solution wouldn't really work for us. When I used experience I did something very similar to what you did and it can work quite well.
I suppose it really depends on how detailed you want the game to be. In a regular pick up game, a dead character's gear is taken up by the rest of the PCs, at least what can be recovered. Most of the time our groups run a communal party treasure too, so it cuts down on some of the decision making. In games where things are a bit more detailed, we've actually done things like wills.
Our groups usually let new characters start at the same level as every one else. In. 3.X we tried to use different levels per character and make use of the variable XP per character level, but that was a pain and we stopped. Having characters a few levels behind also tends to be a drag too. I don't even use Drain effects in my games because it can kill a character without actually killing the character.
For things like Raise Dead, I generally run with the god giving the target a task to do rather then negative levels.
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One thing to keep in mind about the negative levels is that even though they're 'permanent' negative levels, they're still temporary. It just takes a bit more gold to pay for a restoration spell to remove them (and you can only have one removed per week - so that 2nd one you'll have to deal with for a week at least in game time before you can pay to have it removed.)
In previous games, I've had players come back after death as a new character of the appropriate level, but with a level lower's worth of treasure whenever the party was able to keep the old character's loot. In my current game, I've declared that the XCrawl commission limits how much loot can be brought into a crawl (by value in addition to # of items), and that the only things you could loot from a dead teammate are items that were found in the current crawl. So far it's worked pretty well.
Just throwing it out there: I think a fair option is to have a new character come in at full-level and wealth of the other characters; but with two negative levels in place (as if he had been raised from the dead). He can buy back 1 negative level immediately at 1000gp; and the second one a week later. It's really just a tiny penalty in the big scheme of things.
APL-1 with level equivelent loot.
Personally I dont penalize players for dying. Thats pretty brutal if you ask me. In general I consider it my error if I kill a player (baring foolish behavior on the part of the party) so I wont punish them for my mistake. The player always comes in at level and with level appropriate gear selected in whatever way I am currently practicing in the campaign. If there are magic marts then he can pick and choose. It its random treasure, his treature is rolled up, if its my usualy method (no magic marts but I try to give gear useful to the players) then he gives me a rough wishlist and I give the character items from it or associated with the list as I see fit.
As for what to do with the old characters gear, thats up to the party. I can compensate if a little extra gear is infused into the party (I have a large group so it wont make a huge impression on overall wealth).
Just throwing it out there: I think a fair option is to have a new character come in at full-level and wealth of the other characters; but with two negative levels in place (as if he had been raised from the dead). He can buy back 1 negative level immediately at 1000gp; and the second one a week later. It's really just a tiny penalty in the big scheme of things.
I used to do something like this but the party funded the cost out of party funds instead of the individual character, kinda negating the whole point.
I don't think players should benefit from character deaths so I have their belongings shipped back to their family/church/etc.
New characters come in at the same level as the rest of the party just to save on book-keeping, and because lower levels ususally means the whole party suffers in power.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Just throwing it out there: I think a fair option is to have a new character come in at full-level and wealth of the other characters; but with two negative levels in place (as if he had been raised from the dead). He can buy back 1 negative level immediately at 1000gp; and the second one a week later. It's really just a tiny penalty in the big scheme of things.
Actually, what might work nicely to removed the issue of being raised vs. new character is to have a new character come in at the same level, and with the same gp value minus 7000 gp (5000 for raise dead and 2000 for the 2 negative level removals). You could have them live with a 1 week negative level as well.
Actually, what might work nicely to removed the issue of being raised vs. new character is to have a new character come in at the same level, and with the same gp value minus 7000 gp (5000 for raise dead and 2000 for the 2 negative level removals). You could have them live with a 1 week negative level as well.
Giving the new character a GP penalty makes perfect sense to me, but there's no reason they should have any negative levels. Be a level (or half a level, or just 5000 xp or whatever) behind, is fine, but negative levels are an in-game condition that there's no reason for every random new recruit to the party should have.
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Actually, what might work nicely to removed the issue of being raised vs. new character is to have a new character come in at the same level, and with the same gp value minus 7000 gp (5000 for raise dead and 2000 for the 2 negative level removals). You could have them live with a 1 week negative level as well.Giving the new character a GP penalty makes perfect sense to me, but there's no reason they should have any negative levels. Be a level (or half a level, or just 5000 xp or whatever) behind, is fine, but negative levels are an in-game condition that there's no reason for every random new recruit to the party should have.
If the new character has not been actively adventuring for a while the negative level could represent being 'rusty' and after a week it goes away because they've gotten the hang of things again. Not saying that will make sense for all new PCs, but it could work.
In the past we'd just let the group keep the deceased PCs gear and new PCs come in with gear by the character wealth table. But we made a change when playing Shackled City and had 3 near TPK wipes with the same character surviving each time. So this guy ended up getting 15 PCs worth of loot and given the levels he pretty much became a millionaire. He was pretty good about and sharing stuff with the new PCs, but it made for PCs with over double the standard wealth for their level. The DM had to bring back a bit of balance with taxes and thefts which just caused a bit of a rift. So after that we made it that any future character deaths would see the deceased gear go back to his family. If there was a particular item that a living PC wanted then he/she would buy it or trade equivalent wealth of gear for it.
if i were to DM, a new pc would at the current party APL, full level appropriate wealth, new character is not allowed to become an exact "carbon copy" of the deceased, although the same class is allowed and what consitutes a "carbon copy" may be waived if the concept has unique fluff features that set it apart or it makes sense in fluff notes written beforehand. a good allowable example would be 2 ninja from the same clan or 2 monks from the same monastery. i have a broader idea of what counts as a carbon copy and beleive the same statblock could represent multiple types of characters. fluff is another factor.
I don't do any XP penalty, but new characters start with no loot beyond Masterwork. They are expected to use the fallen party member's possessions, or possessions borrowed from other characters, or items found in the dungeon (which tend to be skewed towards the new character).
It's easier to adjust loot than levels. This also avoids the "magical walmart" since the new character must "make due" with hand-me-downs and found objects.
I've always been a fan of the party rescusing the new character from a prison cell or group of enemies (thus explaining their low-equipped state).
I allow the players to decide what happens to the dead characters wealth, if they want to keep it or sell it for profit I'm fine with it. Anyone coming in with a new character starts at the same level with the exact same amount of xp, equipped for a character of his level. I see no reason to further penalize someone who has already lost a character.
We do about the same. Except the new PC doesn’t get a share of the xp the group earned between the player’s last character’s death and the new character’s introduction. It’s a penalty, but it’s minimal.
Thanks for all the responses. It's given me a lot to think about!
So, I'm sure that this has been asked a lot, but what do you do when a character dies and they make a new character? Do you have them come back in at the same level or at a lower level?
The new character has just enough XP to reach the same level as the lowest level member of the party.
What do you do with the dead characters wealth?
I would leave it up to the players to RP what to do with it.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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First off, I'm addressing this from the perspective of someone who runs a variation on E6 3.5 D&D, rather than Pathfinder. In my system, people use experience to buy things other than class levels: you can buy individual feats, skill ranks, hero points, etc.
When a PC dies, he comes back in at 2 levels below the rest of the party, but the other player characters have the option to donate experience to the new character on a "1 will get you 5" basis.
So, if the party is 5th level and one of the five PCs dies, the replacement comes in at 3rd level. If the other PCs want her to be higher level, they can each chip in 150 xp (x 4 PCs, x 5 = 3000 xp) and the character can enter at 4th level. Or they can donate 350 xp each, and the new PC enters at 5th level.
I pause for you folks to be shocked and appalled.
There are three reasons this works well for us:
1) It distinguished between PCs who die heroically -- the other players want to reward that -- versus characters who die from foolishness or doing things the party doesn't approve of.
2) It makes "PC death" a group issue. Players have a vested interest in making sure a character survives.
3) It discourages whimsical death. "I'm weary of playing this character. I'll go kill him off and come in with a new one, more tailored to the party's immediate needs, and with equipment custom-made for this particular dungeon."
Now, it's also the case that the players of surviving characters get veto power over replacement characters. (In in-world terms, a party of good-aligned characters isn't just going to hook up with a scheming assassin.) So far, that's never been an issue.
I don't penalize players for their character dying. Chris Mortika makes some excellent points about party dynamics and has clearly given this a lot of thought. I see the value of that approach.
Still, my general technique is to find a way to get the player back in the swing as quickly as possible, after all, that's why they are playing the game, and I don't want to penalize either the player or the group by gimping a character. Also, I no longer use XP and do leveling by plot points instead of XP.
I find this keeps the game going more smoothly and reduces the time dealing with introducing a new character.
From what I can tell, the issue with PF and a level penalty is that there is no scaling xp like there was in 3.5. So, lowering a character's level is a whole game penalty that will in turn affect the entire group. I dislike that, and so I believe that players of newly deceased characters should at least start as the same level as the rest of the group, if not at exactly the same xp of his/her previous character.
I do think the temporary negative level(s), almost an as-if raised scenario, is a fine compromise if you want there to be a little more penalty/psychic pain for character death. It isn't a permanent balance issue like starting at one or two REAL levels lower.
I do believe that, in general, new characters should start with WBL-1. If your game is very loot-heavy or totally in the vein of "magic walmarts" then this isn't so applicable. But, if you allow the new character to buy what items s/he chooses with starting wealth, I think it is more balanced for the rest of the group (who presumably had to take a 50% loss on a good chunk of their stuff to buy OP equipment for their builds)if the WBL-1 formula is used.
The other option is to track Real Wealth of the PCs, remove the deceased character's treasure, and reintroduce the same value on the new character. This may be the ideal method, but it would require extensive bookkeeping that usually only happens if the treasure scribe is particularly anal or OCD and keeps meticulous records. :)
Because the amount of XPs you need to get a level keep rising as the levels get higher, lower-level characters will catch up, if not by number of XPs then by level. It's mentioned in this post and the one following. I'm pretty sure I've seen the math worked out more fully somewhere on the boards, but I can't find it ATM.
EDIT: Here's a really old thread, but I think the math still holds up. And here's another!
my experience as a player and this may be the people in play with, is that new Pc tend to not see any benefit from their old characters gear. ( basically it often gets sold or distributed among the existing pc) but no one ever says hey new guy this axe would be great for you.
the end result was if the dm is saying the new Pc is coming I. a) lower level than the group and b) the dm is also giving less wbl than this lower level this leads to c) player isnt having fun.
easiest solution is either make the player pick gear based on the % guidelines ( ie 25 to weapon 20 to defense 10 to consumables) orb the dm just assigns gear based on this it should work fine. if the party is still above wealth and it shows just lower treasure to balance it.
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Sorry for thread necromancy, but I don't see why I'd start a new thread if it's the exact same topic...
The issue has been risen again (pun intended :) ) in this thread, but I'd like to hear people thought's on wealth upon PC death.
I see upthread that some people allow new characters that are one or two levels lower than the dead PC. I think that's the best idea I've heard so far.
However, I play in a campaign where no XPs are assigned and all PCs level up at the same time (which means a PC one or two level lower would never catch up).
So we've come up with a houserule: if you die and don't want to bring back your PC, your new one is same level as your dead PC, but with gear that is one level lower. If that one dies, third PC again has same level, but with gear two levels lower, etc.
Keep in mind that the dead PC's gear gets divided amongst survivors... so I'm wondering what you all think in terms of balance. Technically, in the best of world, survivors should put a bit of party cash aside for the new guy, but we play a pirate campaign where this may or may not happen....
@ Purple Dragon Knight
To me, that makes the penalty for death even worse. Not only are they a level of wealth below where they should be, their comrades have more than the appropriate level of wealth.
IMO, losing a character is bad enough. My group approaches character death as follows: Everything the character had dissolves into nothingness (EXCEPTION: plot based items and party items). Make a new character of equivalent level and appropriate WBL.
While not perfect, this prevents wealth disparity, which to me is pretty important. Clearly not the most realistic, but it has kept our games running smoothly. Full disclosure: at least one of the party members would otherwise advocate for just continuously slaughtering each other for infinite wealth, so this is partially to outright prevent that. On the other hand, none of us play our characters recklessly to abuse the policy. If your group would abuse this generous policy, I do recommend penalties to death. As a compromise, perhaps having one or two deaths for "free" before penalties kick in might be the best option.
Another thing to consider is why you play the game. We put a lot of effort into playing this game and having a fun time, so keeping the policy simple and forgiving keeps us in line with that goal. Definitions of fun differ, of course, so everybody will have to adapt their policies to what is fun/fair for them.
LAST POINT I PROMISE. In my experience, frontline PC's die the most often in this game. Assuming this is true for most groups, penalties for death will be focused on melee characters. Also in my experience, melee characters are the most gear dependent. Having steep penalties for death now become seriously debilitating to your frontline PC's and will likely result in more deaths for that character and potentially the party.
The best solution I have found is to replace wealth by level with Magical Encumbrance by level.
Basically, you can only use an amount of magic items based on how powerful (level) your character is. It works exactly at the same scale as wealth by level does, and any magic item applies it's full GP value against it at all times. If a magic item would cause you to exceed your cap you can't use it. Attuning a magic item for use requires 1 minute ritual. Removing attunement to magic items requires 1 hour ritual, followed by 8 hours of rest. Wands and other consumable magic items can be replaced directly by the same item (e.g. potion of CLW can replace a used potion of CLW).
In this manner, you could have effectively infinite wealth but it never really makes you more powerful because you can only use so many magic items at once.
Ever since this death costs 2 levels nonsense came in, the group I played with has been avoiding death like the other horseman, the plague. Now that group has broken up. I've always played and GMed like teamwork is the whole point of the game. If someone wants to come in with a new character that has only a really needed item, and a loincloth, then the rest of the party should share whatever they don't need. I see a replacement character as a new character.
In The Cleaves, characters who die and get raised, will have replacement levels they learned while in the land of the dead. 2 levels of Poltergeist or Reaper should help them survive this time. If they want to bring in a new character, it had better be changed for added survivability. This is in a space dungeon so it applies to the same character with a different past. Stuff like "The dead character's gear is magically transported to their next of kin" won't fly. If they are the only one to fall off the bridge into a more or less bottomless pit, their gear is as lost as they are.
Goth’s Freakshow is where I detail the Land of the Dead.
As a GM I try to keep track of all wealth the PCs have accrued thus far (its on a "treasure tracker") and therefore I can divide that by the number of players to find out how much money the new PC should have. Note: this is much easier to do in roll20, and the wealth only applies to how much the PCs received for selling the item. If they kept it and are still using it, the treasure is not added to the wealth.
For level, I am a fan of starting new PCs at 75% the level of the other PCs (min 1). So, basically, just follow medium BAB to figure out levels. From there they either have a 20% xp boost until they catch up or level up based on the XP chart that is faster (Slow, use medium; medium, use fast; fast use +20% xp)
This tends to catch the new PC up eventually, but he is thematically the "new" guy. If you want, you can bump the XP bonus up to +50% or just have the new PC start at the same level as the other PCs. However, keep in mind what the current max level is, and base your 3/4 level for new characters on that.
Another idea I've used is: new characters start with EBL but effectively lose 3,000 gp (the cost of reincarnate and two restorations), 1,000 gp and take two negative levels (reincarnate alone) or is just a new level 1 character with base wealth.
In any case, their gear should be lost with them if they're coming in with their own wealth. If they are coming in with only basic wealth (the kind you roll for in the very beginning) then the dead PC's gear remains.
Remember that you want to avoid "rewarding" PCs for dying.
The XP penalty above is meaningless if PCs are allowed to help lower level adventurers to gain XP. so I'd stick with the gold penalty if that downtime option is open.
There are tons of ways to do it, you'll find one that works for you and your game.
A while back we had a player who liked to get his PC killed and then make a new PC who conveniently could use a lot of the old PC's gear (though honestly with stuff like rings and cloaks that would be pretty common anyhow). This caused one of our DMs to declare that when a PC dies all of his or her gear is destroyed. I don't much care for that ruling since it seems kind of arbitrary and perhaps a little silly, but some folks like it.
I prefer to just make dying itself unpleasant. We use Hero Points, so with careful play folks shouldn't die often. When they do I generally make life restoring magic available. If they choose to start a new PC instead they come in 1 level lower. In future games I'll also probably only give them NPC starting wealth.
I don't like it when the perfectly built and perfectly equipped new PC with all the newest feats and other options shows up and outshines everybody. I think that even with -1 level and lower WBL the new PC will tend to catch up in power fairly quickly though. I also suspect that making death more punishing should generate more of the "excitement" other players often tell me they feel when their PCs are in danger.
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We roll a new one of same level with average wealth by level.we don't run exp.
All the old characters personal items become innert as to try not to disrupt wealth too much.
I'm still talking them into Automatic Bonuses as I like the idea of eliminating buying the big 6 items. It also frees up item slots to buy more interesting items.
I went from playing AD&D 1 and 2 to playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and knowing that there's no coming back if you get whacked - and that a handful of nervous young first-career city guards with crossbows can finalize you no matter who you are, if one of them rolls lucky - makes for some very tense negotiations, and an awful lot of politeness unless you're intending on wading into battle anyhow. In my current homebrew (which I have been considering bringing onto the board here), the PCs aren't the highest level characters in the world, but raise dead and resurrection are rarer than the gemstones that power those spells ...
I GM young teens and I am aware of the kids' tendency to metagame: I know kids who would suicide their character merely because they wanted to replace it (or, in a rolled-stats game, suicide if they don't like their stats).
My solution that I've found has worked well is to track "Party XP" in addition to individual XP. At the beginning of a campaign, party XP and individual XP are the same. But if a character dies, that player's replacement character loses 1 level of experience relative to his previous character.
So for example, if the Party XP is 8,000 (3rd level) and a character dies, that player makes her new character at 2nd level exactly one level below, with 4,250XP.
The way that person catches up is that they earn "catchup XP." So long as they are behind the Party XP, they get a 50% bonus to all XP they earn. Once they reach Party XP, this bonus ends. (So they can never exceed the Party XP.)
Also, when a player cannot join a session and their character is not in the adventure, that character earns "background XP," which is 50% of what present characters earn while that one is absent. Once that character rejoins the party, they can also catch up to the party by earning "catchup XP" with the 50% bonus. This reflects that a character does not advance as quickly while not adventuring with the party (and assuming the risk involved with adventuring), while not being too big a penalty for that character.
I've found this system works fine with my players -- they don't want to take the temporary hit in power and so avoid death, and so they become committed to even subpar characters with low stats.
As for the dead character's wealth: I allow the player to decide what happens to it. They make one of two choices: (1) transfer the gear and wealth to their new character, or (2) -- I like Taku Ooka Nin's idea -- have their new character come in with an appropriately-lower level of wealth. (I would do some math-fu in the background, using Hero Lab to compute the other characters' wealth and make the new character's wealth a fraction of that based on the wealth differential between the WBL's of the relevant levels. I love math =D.)
The kids are not that concerned about this being non-immersive, and after all it's a guard against metagaming anyway. After all, how natural and "immersive" is it anyway, for a new character to conveniently appear who just so happens to be of similar power soon after their friend has died? Heh.
The Rot Grub's "Catchup XP" and "Background XP" house rules seem kind of interesting, but since most of our groups are kind of small at the moment we generally only play if everybody is available. An exception is our Goblin Game, which has a "No Goblin Left Behind" policy so that players who can't attend regularly don't fall more than one level behind. There aren't any extra calculations, when somebody would be 2 levels higher than you it just forces your XP to the bottom of the next level and you proceed normally from there.
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The Rot Grub's "Catchup XP" and "Background XP" house rules seem kind of interesting, but since most of our groups are kind of small at the moment we generally only play if everybody is available. An exception is our Goblin Game, which has a "No Goblin Left Behind" policy so that players who can't attend regularly don't fall more than one level behind. There aren't any extra calculations, when somebody would be 2 levels higher than you it just forces your XP to the bottom of the next level and you proceed normally from there.
Yes, I think that would be a hidden caveat. Depending on the player (some might enjoy the challenge, others not), I might allow for a "no further than 2 levels behind" policy. I haven't encountered that situation yet. I hope that changes when I run Rappan Athuk/Slumbering Tsar hehe.
2 levels behind and you become a cohort!
Technically, in the best of world, survivors should put a bit of party cash aside for the new guy, but we play a pirate campaign where this may or may not happen....
I played in an Evil campaign that did just that. Why? We're evil; not stupid. It is within the party's interests to make sure that their new cohort is capable of preforming effectively. Being an adventurer is, by and large, a team sport.
Does that mean that our evil characters all loved one another? No. But, at the end of the day, our collective evil goals were furthered if the tank could take a few more hits, the rogue was sneakier, the mage had better spells and the cleric was just a bit wiser.