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Why Sword and Board is automatically invalid at levels other than 1

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Initially I assumed everyone capable of learning already knew this, as it was quite painfully obvious. Apparently not though, so here it is.

You can't hurt things.

It's that simple.

Anyone HP damage based already has to struggle immensely to do enough damage to make enemies care they exist. If enemies do not care they exist, they might as well not exist.

If you hold a shield in your hand, you immediately lose half your damage or more. So even if you could, otherwise do enough damage to matter, now you can't. Let's ignore the many flaws with PF martials here that would prevent them from meeting this criteria regardless here.

Not to mention you'll still be hit easily by anything that doesn't just ignore you because you are a non threat, and the things that do ignore you walk around, so it's not as if holding a shield grants any advantage.

In 3.5, the Animated property allowed martial characters to have a shield, and still do damage. This property was heavily nerfed in PF, so that is not an option. CoDzillas can still hold a shield, as it doesn't interfere with their spells. Wizards can hold shields too, without it interfering with their spells. In all cases the shields are there for special properties, and not AC as you will be hit anyways, but the point is that in PF, as a martial character you cannot use a shield without hopelessly gimping yourself.

The sole exception is at level 1. This is because 1d8+5 actually holds up decently against 13 HP enemies, and at this level the shield bonus to AC actually matters. But even at level 2, enemies have way too many HP to make a non two hander viable. As early as 5, you can forget about tickling the 56 HP to death. It gets far, far worse at 10, 15, and 20.

and you tend to die just as fast when using a two handed weapon.......

What if you use the shield two handed? Strength and a half...

Huh. Must just be me, but my first "magic" enchantment is usually getting some material, and keening a longsword. Easy to dish damage when you crit 25% 0f the time (or more, if you know how to roll)Then I start adding the minor stuff; the gp additions instead of pluses, or "on hit cast" stuff. Only fools try to damage their way out of a fight; weaken the snuff outta him and then slit his throat with a coup de grace

So, yep, magicked-to-the-hilt shield, and a single longsword is my usual kit

Nothing wrong with sword and board. They are extremely good at hurting things. There is a way to do it though. Shield bashing. You get all the defense of a Shield and the offense of two weapon fighting. So in a way you might consider this type more of two weapon fighter but with +9 AC from large steel shield +5 with greater shield focus.

If you play a sword-and-board martial type, you are not worth talking to.

If you say that your pathetic sword-and-board martial type has ever damaged anyone after first level, you are attacking a strawman.

If you don't understand why this is so, you are being wilfully obtuse.

Any other classic CoDzilla-isms that I forgot?

---

I am coming out of the closet as a CoDzilla fan. When glancing through mind-numbing 1000-post threads about the minutiae of Pathfinder rules, my heart beats faster when I see a CoDzilla post. No, seriously. My mouth produces saliva, I break out in goosebumples and parts of my anatomy become tumescent.

I wish that someone could collect every post where CoDzilla uses the phrase "strawman".

Everytime that Pathfinder deletes one of CoDzilla's posts, an angel dies.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll go tell my players they are having fun wrong again. Especially my Inquisitor who held off 2 trolls single-handedly at level 3, by fighting Sword and Board style.

Thanks CoDzilla, your cold, soulless logic has once again shown everyone the error of their ways. You can now ascend to the next level of Pen and Paper gamer, where you float in the gentle warming womb of the gods of maths and numbers.

You have ascended sir, beyond the mere game that we mere players are in. While we languish in the squalor of "fun" and "non-caster classes" using sub-optimal items like shields and longswords. You sir, have single handedly WON Pathfinder. You need not ever play again.

Congratulations sir,

I for one bow, NAY! Kowtow to your greater knowledge, and pray that you'll enlighten us again in the future with your DEEP and INSIGHTFUL Wisdom.
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

If you play a sword-and-board martial type, you are not worth talking to.

If you say that your pathetic sword-and-board martial type has ever damaged anyone after first level, you are attacking a strawman.

If you don't understand why this is so, you are being wilfully obtuse.

Any other classic CoDzilla-isms that I forgot?

---

I am coming out of the closet as a CoDzilla fan. When glancing through mind-numbing 1000-post threads about the minutiae of Pathfinder rules, my heart beats faster when I see a CoDzilla post. No, seriously. My mouth produces saliva, I break out in goosebumples and parts of my anatomy become tumescent.

I wish that someone could collect every post where CoDzilla uses the phrase "strawman".

Everytime that Pathfinder deletes one of CoDzilla's posts, an angel dies.

If I was able to collect them in a massive .pdf collection, think I'd be able to get $5 a pop for it?

Shadow Lodge
CoDzilla wrote:


You can't hurt things.

It's that simple.

You are assuming this person WANTS to hurt things. Maybe they like playing defensively. Assumptions about how everyone plays the game are fun! Yay!

This is a rather ridiculous and extremely narrow view. Though its very suprising that CoD would make a claim that using a weapon at all is ever a vaild choice compared to casting spells anyway!

Its not anywhere near half the damage as CoD claims. The difference between the damage for a character with a strength of 18 using a two handed weapon versus a 1 handed weapon and using a shield is 2 points of damage plus whatever the difference in average is between the size of the dice rolled. Not exactly an earth shattering difference. Even with power attack, your only adding one additional point of damage with the two handed style every 4 levels.

The arguement that you will be hit easily is also a false one. Especially with secondary attacks, that difference to AC from having the shield can make quite a difference.

Two Shields!
4 THE WIN!
Double the attacks and double the defense...WAIT! Mr. Fishy will dual wield a wizard and a cleric CoD Fu. Fear Mr. Fishy's two finned fury!

I would like a proof of concept CoDzilla.
Mr.Fishy wrote:

Two Shields!

4 THE WIN!
Double the attacks and double the defense...WAIT! Mr. Fishy will dual wield a wizard and a cleric CoD Fu. Fear Mr. Fishy's two finned fury!

You'll need an enlarge person to carry them, or else be dual-wielding gnomes. You have Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything, right Mr. Fishy?

Mr.Fishy wrote:

Two Shields!

4 THE WIN!
Double the attacks and double the defense...WAIT! Mr. Fishy will dual wield a wizard and a cleric CoD Fu. Fear Mr. Fishy's two finned fury!

I fear I must sidetrack this Extremely Serious Topic to ask if anybody else can remember something in Dragon (in the early-90s) about a character who rides a Tarrasque and and wields a Lich

Sword and board specs with equivalent optimization levels have about 60% of the DPR of TWF or THF builds (at least around level 10). They can work pretty well if you do a lot of your fighting indoors or if your GM doesn't make too much of an effort to prevent you from tanking. You really need greater bullrush though to open up attacks of opportunity for the rest of the party's melee train to be an equal contributor. With greater bullrush and the shield feat that gives you a free bullrush on your shield slam, you'll actually have a reasonable degree of control that you can use to increase the dpr of the other members of your party.
Dark Archive
Trinam wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:

Two Shields!

4 THE WIN!
Double the attacks and double the defense...WAIT! Mr. Fishy will dual wield a wizard and a cleric CoD Fu. Fear Mr. Fishy's two finned fury!
You'll need an enlarge person to carry them, or else be dual-wielding gnomes. You have Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything, right Mr. Fishy?

I'm dual wielding Gnomes Gunslingers, and both are dual wielding pistols.

CoDzilla... is this a role playing game, or WoW?
monskers wrote:


I'm dual wielding Gnomes Gunslingers, and both are dual wielding pistols.

OK, I got it.

Riding an ettin, who dual wields Gnome Gunslingers, and both are dual wielding pistols. And you could do it while getting Total Cover from your tower shield!

But seriously CoD, proof of concept or your a smurf. Back it up with a build.

Show me The Best Sword and Board you could make, and compare it to a The Best Martial Character you can make.

An optimized caster build would also help everyone learn the quite painfully obvious.
Fergie wrote:
monskers wrote:
Trinam wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:

Two Shields!

4 THE WIN!
Double the attacks and double the defense...WAIT! Mr. Fishy will dual wield a wizard and a cleric CoD Fu. Fear Mr. Fishy's two finned fury!
You'll need an enlarge person to carry them, or else be dual-wielding gnomes. You have Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything, right Mr. Fishy?
I'm dual wielding Gnomes Gunslingers, and both are dual wielding pistols.

OK, I got it.

Riding an ettin, who dual wields Gnome Gunslingers, and both are dual wielding pistols. And you could do it while getting Total Cover from your tower shield!

We need to also work Leadership and a cohort into this idea somehow, but this is definitely the start of something awesome.

EWHM wrote:
Sword and board specs with equivalent optimization levels have about 60% of the DPR of TWF or THF builds (at least around level 10)

How do you figure a sword and board build will do 60% of TWF builds when it is in fact the premier two weapon fighting build?

It is simply nonsensical to make such a statement.

What would we ever do without you to educate us CoDzilla!??!
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The Ettin is riding a 16-headed pyrohydra. Everyone has the pseudonatural template, and are wielding guns in their tentacles.

===Aelryinth
Abraham spalding wrote:
EWHM wrote:
Sword and board specs with equivalent optimization levels have about 60% of the DPR of TWF or THF builds (at least around level 10)

How do you figure a sword and board build will do 60% of TWF builds when it is in fact the premier two weapon fighting build?

It is simply nonsensical to make such a statement.

I made several examples of them for the DPR special olympics at the benchmark level 10. They get around 60% of the DPR of Falchion Fred or Tempest Ted. I did two versions---the first with shield slamming/TWF and the 2nd one for enhanced defense. You can pull them with a quick search.

Dark Archive
CoDzilla wrote:

Initially I assumed everyone capable of learning already knew this, as it was quite painfully obvious. Apparently not though, so here it is.

You can't hurt things.

I like painfully obvious.

And hurting things.

Ahhh, Abraham, would you be willing to post a good build of a Sword and Board, and CoD could post his best melee and caster builds?

10th level
20pt. buy
standard WBL -1000gp for misc stuff.
Must be a playable character.

EWHM wrote - "I made several examples of them for the DPR special olympics at the benchmark level 10."

OK, we could use the DPR build rules.

Go to town CoD!
Aelryinth wrote:

The Ettin is riding a 16-headed pyrohydra. Everyone has the pseudonatural template, and are wielding guns in their tentacles.

===Aelryinth

I've gotta get to statting. My homebrew group has a new boss fight.

A giant, dual wielding elven ninjas who are dual wielding Gnome gunslingers who are dual wielding dogs with bees in their mouths that shoot bees when they bark.

Or better yet, a gunslinger dual wielding Monkian's projectile firing shield!
Aelryinth wrote:

The Ettin is riding a 16-headed pyrohydra. Everyone has the pseudonatural template, and are wielding guns in their tentacles.

===Aelryinth

Your cohort is a marilith gunslinger. Each arm bears a gnome gunslinger, each gnome a pair of pistols. Meet ...the Revolver!

Yeah I'll hit the DPR rules -- EWHM, I haven't found your build yet, however I am looking.

EDIT: Do we want to limit sources any?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
Lazarus Yeithgox wrote:

A giant, dual wielding elven ninjas who are dual wielding Gnome gunslingers who are dual wielding dogs with bees in their mouths that shoot bees when they bark.

Or better yet, a gunslinger dual wielding Monkian's projectile firing shield!

You've already got an ettin wielding gnomes. Perhaps the gnomes could be wielding pixies?

==Aelryinth
Fergie wrote:

Ahhh, Abraham, would you be willing to post a good build of a Sword and Board, and CoD could post his best melee and caster builds?

10th level
20pt. buy
standard WBL -1000gp for misc stuff.
Must be a playable character.

EWHM wrote - "I made several examples of them for the DPR special olympics at the benchmark level 10."

OK, we could use the DPR build rules.

Go to town CoD!

I've got 2 such builds in the Special Entry into the DPR olympics thread. Feat starvation is what really cramps the DPR of the TWF/Shield fighter.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
Abraham spalding wrote:
Yeah I'll hit the DPR rules -- EWHM, I haven't found your build yet, however I am looking.

Like to point out that Shield Fighters really come alive when they get Shield Mastery, and primary wield a spiked Bashing shield. Since the defensive enhancement takes care of the normal + th/dmg, you can stack another +8 of enhancements on your +1 Bashing weapon that does 2-12 with one hand.

Off hand, a Sun Sword, of course! If not, a Short Sword or kukri.

==Aelryinth

Gnomes dual-wielding housecats!

Finally, a thread that will produce more sparks than a katana thread.
Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

I think we're done here.
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