I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.
You decide...
Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)
Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses Darkvision
AC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9
Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])
Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.
I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.
You decide...Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses DarkvisionAC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.
The game degenerates around the upper teens. Now there's few a more things that you can do to make your eidolon more beastly (enlarge person works on it via shared spells). However, a simple dismissal or banishment will make the eidolon go poof. Also forcecage or wall of force will delay it. I can assure you that if you're doing a level 20 one-shot, monsters probably need to be a solid CR 25 for it to be a challenge for a reasonably optimized party. Also while dominating combat is fun, you can still get smacked down by things such as screen and NPC organizations simply not liking you very much.
I am not certain but I am pretty sure you could make your eidolon nastier than this. You Eidolon should have 26 evolution points at lvl 20. 5 more if you are a half elf.
That's my point... I didn't even use all the points on the Eidolon and it's still overpowered.
I didn't even include the fact that I would be an exact replica of the eidolon with my magic items buffing me for 20 minutes per day.I'm not trying to build a better Eidolon... it's no fun to cut through dragons one a round.
Yar.
Honestly, it doesn't look that bad at all. I don't have time to go into super details and build posting, but having played in and DMed epic level groups for many years (most of which started at low levels and worked their way up into the mid twenties and once even into the 50's (took about a decade irl to get there), plus the occasional one-timer) I can say that the level 20 summoner/Eidolon really isn't that big of a deal.
This is, of course, based purely on my own actual experiences with epic level play in various editions, including pathfinder and with this class in particular (the most recent high level group went from 3 to 18th level, and included a Fighter, a Cavalier, a Wizard/Psion, a Lich Wizard (who we were slowly turning good), and a Summoner).
Perhaps it's just my groups playstyle, but I dare say that this build is, in my experience at least, a fair bit on the weak side. Though I do like that it appears to constantly try to go for the eyes. :D
~P
This Eidolon is really weak.
I cast Dominate Monster, your turn.
Also, you have no Hp, no ac and not that much damage.
Compare e.G. to a two handed lance wielding Mounted spirited charging Fighter 20 you kinda loose.
+ if you have a intelligent foe (like a dragon) it will ignore the Eidolon and simply kill, planeshift or dominate the summoner.
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Will 9. Every wizard over 5th level will have Devolution available, most via arcane bond. That huge evolution is 10 points, and your beast crashes from huge all the way down to medium. Now, unable to wield your weapon that is two category sizes too big, you are neutered to 4x +21, 2d6+9. Still nasty against a fifth level wizard, but simply outclassed by a 20th level party. For a 10th level wizard, the fly disappears too. I hope you weren't airborne at the time. Or Dominate Monster with a minimum DC of 23 turns you upon your summoner and party. Dismissal. There are many ways to own you in one round. Even the white dragon has a good chance of landing Charm Monster on you.
Edit: Added dropping fly.
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Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.
Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.
This isn't an MMORPG where all people care about is top-level balance.
How is this over-powered? The saves are terrible. Any lv9 mage with any self-respect can neutralize it with a single spell.
The lv12 fighter and universalist in the Kingmaker campaign I GM could likely tag-team one-round this thing. (needs a 17 to make the save against universalist's Hold Monster)
You won't cut through dragons above adult unless the GM hands you the encounter. A dragon knows magic. +30 to hit is pathetic on lv20. If I take a vanilla CR17 ancient green (happened to open the book on it) and even run with the uncharacteristically stupid spell and feat load-out, and NO magical items, you need a 14+ on the die from round 1 to even hit it (assuming mage armor and shield, the least of it's buffs, to be active), 19+ on the rest of your attacks. And should the first blow hit, it is likely eaten by a mirror image if the dragon has had ANY prep-time. In return, the dragon needs a 2 or 4 to hit, and chainsaws through your eidolon in two full-attacks.
If we assume lv20 gear customized for the eidolon and some buffs, then we can start talking.
Level 20 means absurdly powerful, it is the last level before you quit the game.
Not to mention the number of places your huge eidalon will not fit.
to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.
Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.
Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.
A lv20 fighter will have tons of items. If he has not put money towards being able to pursue anything and melee it anywhere, he has failed. Problem is that he is utterly and completely gimped into unplayability alone due to economy of actions. The only viable option for a fighter is full attack. And he cannot combine that with anything but a 5' step. Make it a mobile fighter who can full attack as a standard action on lv20, and he is still gimped, as all items that allows him to move or fly eats his standard action.
Solutions include cohort buff monkey, and/or intelligent items that do stuff FOR him.
to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.
Claws are primary attacks, not secondary. 2 for 1 on Power Attack with claws.
to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.Claws are primary attacks, not secondary. 2 for 1 on Power Attack with claws.
When you use natural attacks with manufactured weapons, your natural attacks are automatically secondary.
Yeah, the fighter could have items and he could have leadership. But then the summoner could have leadership and items can only do so much. Between the eidolon's truly superior the reach, higher fly speed, and the fact that team summoner/eidolon has more actions to work with means a fighter is going to be severely outclassed in a 1 on 1 scenario because he will have trouble finding ways to even use his abilities. Also since eidolon's can get up to...Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.
Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.
A lv20 fighter will have tons of items. If he has not put money towards being able to pursue anything and melee it anywhere, he has failed. Problem is that he is utterly and completely gimped into unplayability alone due to economy of actions. The only viable option for a fighter is full attack. And he cannot combine that with anything but a 5' step. Make it a mobile fighter who can full attack as a standard action on lv20, and he is still gimped, as all items that allows him to move or fly eats his standard action.
Solutions include cohort buff monkey, and/or intelligent items that do stuff FOR him.
Don't ignore the fact that the eidolon can leadership as well. So summoner gets two cohorts (effectively)
I personally think there should be a forum rule that leadership doesn't exist as a normal option when discussing class balance because anybody can take it to cover their weak points. It is a mighty feat because it nets you a free npc 2 levels below you. But since anybody can take it, its net effect is 0 for balance comparisons.
Don't ignore the fact that the eidolon can leadership as well. So summoner gets two cohorts (effectively)
Yes but the summoner has an edge on this one because both them and the eidolon can have it. I can't think of anyone else who can take it twice.
not really that scary, that mentioned fighter on flying mount could ride by attack you all day while you fly up and get one attack on him, plus maybe one more for attack of opportunity, his damage and health will still far super cede yours
err, so what about the actual SUMMONER... yes a high level caster can dismiss the eidolon. Ok, summoner whips him out again next turn. YAY!
Oh wait, the summoner can use twin eidolon to make himself a copy of the eidolon. Oh hey and his worn items continue to function! So +6 to all physical stats listed above from a single belt, + bunches to AC and resists, etc etc. Oh and he can whip out summon monster 9 or gate as a SLA a bunch of times a day. Oh right and he's still got a full casting list. Did I mention that we're not even talking about having the eidolon buffed in any way?
How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...
Give me an example of said flying mount he could have? Is it from leadership? Is it even close to being on level? if not it will be focus fired dead in about 1 turn and the fighter will have no way to get to his target.I am sorry if this post is hostile. I have a headache and just realized that there is a negative tone in it. I want to communicate something like above without sounding like a jerk.
I use the 10,000 gold bronze griffin (if i need it to attack) for ride by attacks the ebony fly (same price, longer duration, can't attack) may work better.
Neither suggest they can be killed (sundered maybe) and work long enough for my adventuring week
Edit: @vip00 there is a level 20 cavalier build on here somewhere that can one shot a tarreseque, (some 400 damage on the charge) so summoner had better be hiding and buffing, not fighting. Everyone at level 20 seems amazing, it is not a good comparison point
Yar.
A fighter with a flying mount can happen a number of ways. Leadership is one. Raising a creature from birth and using the Handle Animal Skill is another (it takes time, but the rules are there for rearing and training unusual animals). There are also a number of wondrous items and armor that can allow a fighter to fly (either himself or by summoning a mount), and he can even make those items himself without much difficulty (humans can add 1/2 their level to one craft/profession skill, + master craftsman + craft magic arm+armor or craft wondrous items + skill focus + actually putting osme ranks into the said skill = huge modifiers). yeah, it takes feats, but a fighter is a class with lots of feats.
A better combatant would be a Cavalier riding a Roc (as the Roc will be advanced as an animal companion, combined with the cavaliers charge, challenge, ride-by and fly-by).
~P
I use the 10,000 gold bronze griffin (if i need it to attack) for ride by attacks the ebony fly (same price, longer duration, can't attack) may work better.
Neither suggest they can be killed (sundered maybe) and work long enough for my adventuring week
Edit: @vip00 there is a level 20 cavalier build on here somewhere that can one shot a tarreseque, (some 400 damage on the charge) so summoner had better be hiding and buffing, not fighting. Everyone at level 20 seems amazing, it is not a good comparison point
General description of figurine of wondrous power:
"If a figurine of wondrous power is broken or destroyed in its statuette form, it is forever ruined. All magic is lost, its power departed. If slain in animal form, the figurine simply reverts to a statuette that can be used again at a later time."As far as I'm concerned that clearly states that it can be "slain in animal form".
Ok, how many people have actually PLAYED these and gotten these abilities to work in play. I would like to hear opinions from people who have played these 20th level characters. Comparing 2 builds on paper means nothing.
Yar.
How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...
I have. Yeah, the last group only adventured to level 18, but I've done some one-shot runs at level 20, and have a lot of experience running and playing adventures that go above and beyond that, even with the relatively young pathfinder rules. I usually ignore threads like this because the theorycraft vs actual gameplay vs player experience vs roleplay vs rollplay vs poster emotions vs optimized builds vs unoptimized builds often gets out of hand and impossible to discuss fully due to random possible 'what-ifs' that get added from this side or that with the presumption that it negates all other arguments. (this is a gross generalization and is not always as extreme as I just painted it).
Anyways, my RL game is about to begin, so I'm off. Final Thoughts: Whether something is OP or Broken, in pathfinder, in my experience, has more to do with playstyle and the individual groups and the currently running campaign rather than the actual material being used. In group 1 class X is broken/OP, in group 2 class X is pitiful and weak-sauce, and in yet group 3 that same class X is perfectly balanced with everything else going on. This is simply my personal experiences in the matter.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help at this moment.
~P
Yar.
How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...
I have. Yeah, the last group only adventured to level 18, but I've done some one-shot runs at level 20, and have a lot of experience running and playing adventures that go above and beyond that, even with the relatively young pathfinder rules. I usually ignore threads like this because the theorycraft vs actual gameplay vs player experience vs roleplay vs rollplay vs poster emotions vs optimized builds vs unoptimized builds often gets out of hand and impossible to discuss fully due to random possible 'what-ifs' that get added from this side or that with the presumption that it negates all other arguments. (this is a gross generalization and is not always as extreme as I just painted it).
Anyways, my RL game is about to begin, so I'm off. Final Thoughts: Whether something is OP or Broken, in pathfinder, in my experience, has more to do with playstyle and the individual groups and the currently running campaign rather than the actual material being used. In group 1 class X is broken/OP, in group 2 class X is pitiful and weak-sauce, and in yet group 3 that same class X is perfectly balanced with everything else going on. This is simply my personal experiences in the matter.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help at this moment.
~P
Interesting! Granted you had a psion in your group so I'm sure the summoner was a far cry from being the most broken thing on the table.
However I have trouble seeing how pretty much any other core class would stand on even ground with the summoner. Yes you can build characters that are SPECIFICALLY good vs the summoner, but I am talking general campaign ability as I've stated before.
It would have been interesting to see your sessions.
In the end, you are right... power imbalances are frequently due more to players and how they build and play their characters than the classes themselves.
They function like the actual creatures and the spell mentions that they can be slain.
Griffons have 42hp with 17 ac and an 80ft(+6 to fly) speed.
Pegasus has 34 hp with 14 ac and a 120ft(+5 to fly) speed.So either 1 would likely die after 1 round at level 20. You can also get a nightmare through those figurines but it is only marginally better than the other 2. I am not sure there are any non-class ability ways to get flying mounts useful at level 20. A cavalier could get a flying mount, so could a ranger or druid.
I would like to see that cavalier build. I like cavaliers.
Thanks for that, I had not noticed. never used them this high of level to be honest, I wonder if they can be enchanted...
Still, point is, theorizing at level 20 just isnt a good place to call something OP
the cavalier build is in a thread about one shot damage, im having issues with search so I can't link ya
hey function like the actual creatures and the spell mentions that they can be slain.
Griffons have 42hp with 17 ac and an 80ft(+6 to fly) speed.
Pegasus has 34 hp with 14 ac and a 120ft(+5 to fly) speed.So either 1 would likely die after 1 round at level 20. You can also get a nightmare through those figurines but it is only marginally better than the other 2. I am not sure there are any non-class ability ways to get flying mounts useful at level 20. A cavalier could get a flying mount, so could a ranger or druid.
I would like to see that cavalier build. I like cavaliers.
That thread can be found here.
It's a cheesy 600 dmg when you crit with a lance on a charge.
For comparison, the eidolon above does 271dmg a round if it hits with all of its attacks without any crits. That eidolon is not optimized, for for an optimized one, it should be closer to 350. The summoner in twin eidolon form should add about another 400 since he has the same abilities, but adds active magic item bonuses. Total 1-round damage is about 750. *shrug*
what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first round
what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first round
Everyone always says that, but I haven't found that to be the case in a real campaign other than certain corner cases. Care to give examples?
what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first roundEveryone always says that, but I haven't found that to be the case in a real campaign other than certain corner cases. Care to give examples?
This edilion vs. that cavalier, edilion wins initiative and wipes the floor with him in a full attack, cavalier wins initiative and charges killing summoner in charge attack.
First guy wins both times
I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.
You decide...Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses DarkvisionAC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.
With those low saves and the low initiative I hope he got his butt kicked.
@vip00: I have played and hosted several high/epic level campaigns, and they all come down to initiative and are resolved in less than 3 rounds. Especially true for the brutes, who will likely be out of commission by the first failed save.
Vs Casters: In most cases, it doesn't matter if you win against a caster unless you are positioned to get off a full-attack. If they get to ACT, you likely lose. Even if you give this thing a cloak +5 and belt/headband of +6 to all stats to make it's saves at least relevant, he will still fail on a 10 against lv9 spells (Will17/Ref16 vs DC of at LEAST 28, if you don't know _anything_ about making a caster).
Vs Martial: Fighter, paladin or ranger gets a full-attack with 5-6 arrows, and by THIS point, if they don't do at least 200 damage, they should go hang their heads in shame.
Vs Rogues/Monks: OK, the eidolon beats the rogue and the monk. But everyone does, so big deal.
@wraithstrike: Without items and buffs, not even a question.
Ahem.... Low Saves... gotcha.
You guys should all go read the Summoner... it's long... I know.
Ok... You somehow get rid of my Eidolon. I can re-Summon Him. Better Yet, I can become him... with my own awesome saves, gear, feats, current buffs. After I become him... I summon him as a full round action.
If you take control of my Eidolon, I dismiss him. Better yet, I cast Protection from Whatever on him. Or I simply Greater dispell your spell.
Don't mind me, I'm just here to make sure you can't summon anything, blink or teleport.
Oh yeah, good point. I usually see you cast on just about any dungeon worth mentioning on higher levels, so the players can't just teleport in and ignore all the challenges.
Man, you shut down a summoner completely don't you? Can't summon anything, so if the eidolon goes down, you have to physically go outside and get it again. Brutal.
Two changes you can make to make this build somewhat more threatening (the second one is pretty trivial, too):
1) Quadruped instead of biped. You give up 5' of reach, but gain the ability to take pounce. Once you can full attack on a charge, their ability to run away is significantly curtailed. Also gives you a free bite attack.
2) Swap claws for pincers (since they're secondary attacks anyway) and take the improved damage evolution for them for one point. As per the conclusions I drew in the thread over here, that would bump your natural attacks up to 3d8 damage with the INA feat.
Well, if it is a duel and not "Who benefits a party vs monsters more" then i would definitive go wizard.
Either a diviner (who doesn´t like to always have a ini of 30+dex+feats+traits) or a conjurer with his pet (either a Astral Deva or a Nalfeshnee). If i go with the conjurer my pet would hunt the summoner while i finish the Eidolon.
As a diviner i assume i go first. As conjurer it´s a matter of "who rolls higher wins" (as is level 20 most of the time).
Lets start the fight with a timestop, followed by a Prismatic Sphere, and then i gate in either an Pit Fiend or an Star Archon helper (which one depends on my alignment). After that i ready an action to cast Mage's Disjunction if the eidolon comes into range and follow it up with an dominate monster spell. As his Eidolon is not killed the summoner can not summon a new one and the hunt may begin...
On second thought, strike the dominate monster and make it an quickened Magic Jar instead. Time to kill the summoner with his own Eidolon...
lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."
Your DM must hate you. I personally have never encountered anything like this or placed it in my games. You must have a reliable description of a place to teleport there even with greater teleport, and most BBEGs don't tend to post those on every available bulletin board...