@Bobson
Sorry, it's actually 3d6+22 (+9 str, +4 enhancement, +4 power attack, +5 arcane strike) Woops.... so, instead of 35.5 it will be 32.5 for my offhands.I accidently added the bonus from having the belt on the end instead of doing it all as one.
And I forgot to add arcane strike to those weapons - I only added it to the primary. So 755.55 DPR.
I get 14 attacks because of this line of Twin Eidolon
"The summoner retains all of his class features"
Aspect and Greater Aspect are class features.
That's what I figured. I don't know if I agree with that interpretation, but it certainly could be the right one.
Actually, James, it does work that way. I keep all of my class features. Including the benefits gained from Aspect and Greater Aspect. Those are class features which get tacked on to my new form.
It goes like this:
I assume new form. Check.
Now I include my class features, +3xlimbs. Check.
There is a neat little title which lists all class features..... ... those are included in my form.
First, +25 is not going to hit much at lv20. Mooks and the joke-creatures like the Shoggoth and the Linnorms, maybe. Not a true fiend or a dragon, and definately not monsters with class levels. You can collect +3 or so from buffs without much problem, but still not going to be good enough to do anywhere near your imagined DPR.
Second, having a metric poop-ton of attacks makes DR all that much sweeter, as half your damage won't punch through DR 15/Relevant. Most everything above CR12 has a relevant DR. Your +4 weapon bypasses some DR. +2 does not.
THIS is why pets of any kind are not overpowered. They are sweet as heck for levels 1-10 or so, but after that, they are there to soak hits.
Also, the same source/kinds of bonuses do NOT stack, meaning you get AC from ONE defending weapon.
Ok, the above example I just gave is only me... in my Eidolon's form.
I just owned his level 20 fighter for dealing damage.
I get an Eidolon on top of that.
I get the versatility of spells on top of that.
If I know what I am going up against... say goodbye. Because I get the versatility of being able to change my Eidolon at a whim (with Transmogrify) or add more points to him (With Greater Evolutionary Surge).11 times per day... I can summon monster 9, and tell it to make me tea because I don't need it for anything else.
No better than a wizard since they can prepare for known encounters. I am still not convinced.
Anyway, his eidolon is not a good one for comparison. We should forget this thread and pick a different thread where strong builds go against strong builds. I agree with a lot of other people this is getting alil too arbitrary and theory craft related. I knew this thread was dead when I saw the old, time stop into a bunch of other s#~@ argument.
What are you talking about? This thread is about how broken the Summoner Class is.... are you high?
What other people are you agreeing with about arbitrary and theory crafted? huh... what? I just used normal feats and abilities and I alone, can out damage fighterman.... then of course, there is my eidolon bringing up the rear with some MORE damage.
Why are you trying to steer people away from this thread. I'm here simply trying to point out to other DMs, players, and the game developers that the Summoner class is broken. Don't allow it in your games unless you want every fight to be extremely one sided with your players being constantly outshined by the Summoner.
It needs a big ole Nerf Bat!
If you say that my Eidolon isn't optimized then you are simply making my point for me, showing everyone here that you can build an even MORE powerful Summoner. (Which I think you cannot... but go ahead)
Broken is determined on group by group basis. You have yet to prove it is universally broken*.
*High percentage of DM's could not deal with it.
First, +25 is not going to hit much at lv20. Mooks and the joke-creatures like the Shoggoth and the Linnorms, maybe. Not a true fiend or a dragon, and definately not monsters with class levels. You can collect +3 or so from buffs without much problem, but still not going to be good enough to do anywhere near your imagined DPR.
Second, having a metric poop-ton of attacks makes DR all that much sweeter, as half your damage won't punch through DR 15/Relevant. Most everything above CR12 has a relevant DR. Your +4 weapon bypasses some DR. +2 does not.
THIS is why pets of any kind are not overpowered. They are sweet as heck for levels 1-10 or so, but after that, they are there to soak hits.
Also, the same source/kinds of bonuses do NOT stack, meaning you get AC from ONE defending weapon.
Ok.... who cares about DR when you are dealing the damage I am doing.
Taking away 15 Damage from each of my strikes makes my Average DPR 485I'll still own anything on the field.
As for hitting something... I have a +29, forget my eidolon look at me in eidolon form. That isn't including flanking or outside sources... look at CR 20 Creatures and they avg about 38AC...
don't forget... the shear ammount of attacks increases my chances of getting a 20.
If I am having trouble hitting, I simply let go of Power Attack and gain +4 to all my attacks.
First, +25 is not going to hit much at lv20. Mooks and the joke-creatures like the Shoggoth and the Linnorms, maybe. Not a true fiend or a dragon, and definately not monsters with class levels. You can collect +3 or so from buffs without much problem, but still not going to be good enough to do anywhere near your imagined DPR.
Second, having a metric poop-ton of attacks makes DR all that much sweeter, as half your damage won't punch through DR 15/Relevant. Most everything above CR12 has a relevant DR. Your +4 weapon bypasses some DR. +2 does not.
THIS is why pets of any kind are not overpowered. They are sweet as heck for levels 1-10 or so, but after that, they are there to soak hits.
Also, the same source/kinds of bonuses do NOT stack, meaning you get AC from ONE defending weapon.
Ok.... who cares about DR when you are dealing the damage I am doing.
Taking away 15 Damage from each of my strikes makes my Average DPR 485
I'll still own anything on the field.As for hitting something... I have a +29, forget my eidolon look at me in eidolon form. That isn't including flanking or outside sources... look at CR 20 Creatures and they avg about 38AC...
don't forget... the shear ammount of attacks increases my chances of getting a 20.If I am having trouble hitting, I simply let go of Power Attack and gain +4 to all my attacks.
Flat AC38. In reality, ANY cr16+ dragon will have at LEAST 50, just by virtue of basic mage armor, shield and a potion of barkskin. And likely more. That is why I said "joke monsters" in regards to those mindless mooks that somehow got into the CR15+ category without spells or SLAs worth mentioning.
Trust me, I have GMed and played those levels, and it always comes down to "hit anyways" mooks or "only the dedicated combatants can hit anything" actual threats. By dedicated, I mean those who can break +50 to hit after 1 round of buffs at most.
I had him do damage against an AC of 32 because that is what "fighterman" was having me go up against.
Why don't you have my Eidolon and I go up against a dragon and see what happens. Just pull out your bestiary and have them start out 100ft away from each other and see what happens.
Dragon Pwnt.
Summoner gets a full compliment of spells ON TOP OF THE DAMAGE I POSTED ABOVE. I can greater dispel magic and continue to blast it to smithereens.
First, +25 is not going to hit much at lv20. Mooks and the joke-creatures like the Shoggoth and the Linnorms, maybe. Not a true fiend or a dragon, and definately not monsters with class levels. You can collect +3 or so from buffs without much problem, but still not going to be good enough to do anywhere near your imagined DPR.
Second, having a metric poop-ton of attacks makes DR all that much sweeter, as half your damage won't punch through DR 15/Relevant. Most everything above CR12 has a relevant DR. Your +4 weapon bypasses some DR. +2 does not.
THIS is why pets of any kind are not overpowered. They are sweet as heck for levels 1-10 or so, but after that, they are there to soak hits.
Also, the same source/kinds of bonuses do NOT stack, meaning you get AC from ONE defending weapon.
Ok.... who cares about DR when you are dealing the damage I am doing.
Taking away 15 Damage from each of my strikes makes my Average DPR 485
I'll still own anything on the field.As for hitting something... I have a +29, forget my eidolon look at me in eidolon form. That isn't including flanking or outside sources... look at CR 20 Creatures and they avg about 38AC...
don't forget... the shear ammount of attacks increases my chances of getting a 20.If I am having trouble hitting, I simply let go of Power Attack and gain +4 to all my attacks.
If you look at AP's with CR 20 monsters the AC's can go above 50. Now if that pit fiend uses it's genius like intelligence it will use the treasure that is allocated to it to boost its AC and attacks to very high levels.
If you compare a your build to a stock monster I am sure you can beat it up, but so can the average player. A fighter that is not trying has + 30 to hit, and can beat down a pit fiend. That archer fighter that was referred to earlier was not even a real attempt. It was just someone fooling around.I did not check your build(in detail) out since the first one, but pit fiends can fly. It will most likely throw spells/SLA's at you for as long as it can then use whatever tactic is needed to win. It(pit fiend) still might lose, but it is not as easy in a real game as you are making it sound.
I had him do damage against an AC of 32 because that is what "fighterman" was having me go up against.
Why don't you have my Eidolon and I go up against a dragon and see what happens. Just pull out your bestiary and have them start out 100ft away from each other and see what happens.
Dragon Pwnt.
Summoner gets a full compliment of spells ON TOP OF THE DAMAGE I POSTED ABOVE. I can greater dispel magic and continue to blast it to smithereens.
Arena battles don't mean anything. CR 20 monsters normally know you are coming and will be buffed accordingly. Not only that, you will have used some of your resources. If you can walk up on a pit fiend, balor, or other high level intelligent monster and think you will get what is in the book then your DM is softballing you, and if you are the DM, then I suggest you try to challenge your build instead of making assumptions about its power.
Lol. Dragon drinks a potion? ok...
My initiative is better than his +2, so lets look at my first turn.
Quicken Bull Strength my Eidolon. Greater Teleport it and me behind the Dragon. It's 10ft away from the dragon, I'm behind it.
Eidolon's Turn, full attack on dragon removing power attack and defending.
Your dragons AC with his mage armor is 44.
1 - 39.5*0.4 + 79*.2*0.6 = 25.3
2 - 39.5*0.15 + 79*.2*0.35 = 11.4
3 - 39.5*0.05 + 79*.2*0.1 = 3.5
4 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
5 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
6 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
7 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
8 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
9 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
10 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
11 - 18*.4 + 18*.3*.6 = 10.5
First Round avg 142 damage to your dragon with sub standard gear. If your dragon is in the air, I automatically get an attack of opportunity as it moves out of my square on it's turn doing an avg 25.3 dmg again.
Soooo... you said your dragon drinks a Barkskin? Did he have it in his hand already or is he getting it from it's pack? Maybe potion belt? Ok, let's just say this makes sense.
Next round I Greater Dispel Magic : Both Mager Armor and Barkskin go away immediately as I can cast them (I don't have to roll a check)... there is no Spell resistance applied to it. Looks like it's not such a bad spell after all? Plus, if the Dragon has other buffs, this spell has the possibility to get rid of 2 more of them.
Eidolon attacks again... or... if he is mid flight and too far away, looks like I have some time change into my form and teleport in with my eidolon to finish him off together.
These are examples of how overpowered a single Summoner can be. It has nothing to do with how difficult the encounter is.
Encounters where CR 20 creatures constantly attack you, surprising you, fully buffed because they know you are coming (while a horrible DMing call) doesn't matter much.
I'm just trying to point out that this Summoner has a better chance in those situations than other classes because it is BROKEN and overpowered...
These are examples of how overpowered a single Summoner can be. It has nothing to do with how difficult the encounter is.
Encounters where CR 20 creatures constantly attack you, surprising you, fully buffed because they know you are coming (while a horrible DMing call) doesn't matter much.
I'm just trying to point out that this Summoner has a better chance in those situations than other classes because it is BROKEN and overpowered...
No it isn't. I would post a build, but I on the phone. When I get off I will delevel a build down to 20.
Hey, you know what else is overpowered? Anything else when you assume dragons are idiots and the GM doesn't know how to run one. Even rogues can one-shot an idiot dragon if they try hard enough.
Here is a dragon how I run it when it uses it's treasure on not being a retard: (Note that this is using only the core rulebook and bestiary, I could make him much much much worse with Draconomicon and such)
Advanced Ancient Red Dragon CR 20
XP 204,800
CE Gargantuan dragon (fire)
Init +8;
Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +38
Aura fire, frightful presence (300 ft., DC 32)
Defense
AC 58, touch 14, flatfooted 55 (+3 Dex, +40 natural, +5 deflection, +4 armor, –4 size), 62 when buffed (+4 shield)
hp 487 (25d12+325)
Fort +31, Ref +22, Will +28
DR 15/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 30
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
Offense
Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy)
Melee bite +39 (6d6+27/19–20), 2 claws +39 (2d8+18), 2 wings +37 (2d6+9), tail slap +37 (2d8+27)
Buffed and power attack: Melee bite +39/+39 (6d6+50/19–20), 2 claws +39 (2d8+35), 2 wings +37 (2d6+20), tail slap +37 (2d8+50)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (60-ft. cone, DC 35, 20d10 fire), crush, manipulate flames, melt stone, tail sweep
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 25th)
At will—detect magic, find the path, pyrotechnics (DC 22), suggestion (DC 23), wall of fire
Spells Known (CL 15th)
7th (4/day)—limited wish, spell turning
6th (6/day)—antimagic field, contingency, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)—polymorph, telekinesis (DC 25), teleport, wall of force
4th (7/day)—fear (DC 24), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—displacement, haste, slow(DC 23), tongues
2nd (7/day)—detect thoughts, mirror image, misdirection, resist
energy, see invisibility
1st (8/day)—alarm, grease (DC 21), magic missile, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, bleed, light, mage hand, mending,
message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
Statistics
Str 47, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 30 <- Belt of Str/Dex/Con +4/Headband of Cha +6
Base Atk +25; CMB +47; CMD 65 (67 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Critical Mastery, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Stunning Critical, Toughness
Gear: Belt of Physical Perfection +4 (40k), Headband of Cha+6 (36k), Ring of Protection +5 (50k), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50k), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k), Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel)(4k) <- within dragon's 201k treasure allotment if assuming average XP advancement table
Tactics:
Before combat: Having superior senses, it is quite possible that the dragon will get the jump on the players, in which case he buffs up before combat. If not:
Rd1: Breath Weapon if clustered, otherwise Improved Invisibility + Quickened Mirror Image, move close to the ground to beat up dust for total concealment (physical and magical total concealment, and mirror image if you have blindsight, forcing you to waste time on divinations like true sight)
Rd2: Quickened Mirror Image to restore it if lost (otherwise quickened shield) + Limited Wish to dupe Divine Power if combat seems challenging, otherwise case in obvious paladin or fighter in a wall of force. Intentionally waiting for others to come to it.
Rd3: Breathe if able/effective, otherwise full attack to violate everything you love + Quickened Slow (/Resist Energy if someone is hitting it with cold)
Rd4: Full attack and quicken whatever needed.
Contingency: Fire Shield when he casts shield.
Have at it with your summoner and eidolon and see how they fare.
And no, this is NOT a "boss encounter" at lv20, for that, I bring out the advanced great wyrm.
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I haven't researched it or anything, but your group plays that all of the baddies leave treasure they could use to their advantage in gift boxes for the PC's to take after they whoop up on them? From 1st level the retard goblins we run into use treasure against the party be it a magic sword or any sort of potion to help them.Hey, you know what else is overpowered? Anything else when you assume dragons are idiots and the GM doesn't know how to run one. Even rogues can one-shot an idiot dragon if they try hard enough.
Here is a dragon how I run it when it uses it's treasure on not being a retard: (Note that this is using only the core rulebook and bestiary, I could make him much much much worse with Draconomicon and such)
Advanced Ancient Red Dragon CR 20
XP 204,800
CE Gargantuan dragon (fire)
Init +8;
Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +38
Aura fire, frightful presence (300 ft., DC 32)Defense
AC 58, touch 14, flatfooted 55 (+3 Dex, +40 natural, +5 deflection, +4 armor, –4 size), 62 when buffed (+4 shield)
hp 487 (25d12+325)
Fort +31, Ref +22, Will +28
DR 15/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 30
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
That is not out of the beastiary, I or II.
So since your leaving RAW can he? Lets stick to RAW which would be a CR 21 encounter for a CR 20 party (which the Summoner is part of) and no taking the monsters treasure as a way to buff them up, thats not RAW as far as I know. If it is RAW can you point me to where it says that?
+1
A dragon is an intelligent creature, so I'm sure it would use the treasure in an encounter. You wouldn't expect an enemy wizard to not use his Headband of Vast Intelligence or any of his wands would you?
Lol... do all your encounters involve monsters with craploads of gear on? Where do you put your Belts and Circlets on your Shoggoth lol?
I'm just imagining you running an entire campaign ofPimp Monsters!
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Lol... do all your encounters involve monsters with craploads of gear on? Where do you put your Belts and Circlets on your Shoggoth lol?
I'm being serious when I ask you this: Do you just get piles of gold when you kill a dragon?
Dragons aren't ravens that just like stuff because it's shiny. They are intelligent creatures that are just as likely to have armor and woundrous items as any adventurer. I'd expect an ancient white dragon(CR 15) to have some sort of item that grants it resistance to fire, for example.
Of course you get treasure from the dragon... however, like Ice_Deep said... if you find a GARGANTUAN +6 Belt of Physical Perfection on a dragon... you are stretching the rules a little bit.
Secondly, even if you did add items to a dragon, you are increasing it's CR beyond 20.
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Of course you get treasure from the dragon... however, like Ice_Deep said... if you find a GARGANTUAN +6 Belt of Physical Perfection on a dragon... you are stretching the rules a little bit.
Secondly, even if you did add items to a dragon, you are increasing it's CR beyond 20.
Can't get to the pfsrd right now, but I'm going to assume it says the same thing the PRD does.
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Matthias: That's a MUCH better eidolon, though still lacking in the BaB department. Note though that FighterMan is just quickly half-optimized and this was BEFORE the APG; there's quite a few tricks in there he could use, methinks.
Note though that bonuses from the same source don't stack, so several defending weapons don't stack (much like how several instances of the same spell doesn't stack even if cast by different people).
Also, doing what Kamelguru did and optimizing the dragon isn't in any way wrong. While I would probably have used a little less wealth on equipment, it's not in any way house ruling and is fine if you play it against an optimized party.
And asking "who would craft that for him?" isn't in any way relevant. The dragon can buy stuff just like players can, why not? Sure, you might say there's a stigma in the local village against trading with red dragons, but that's usually not where you buy stuff. He might have gotten it through eating adventurers. He might have traded it with some extraplanar being like a devil or the like. He might simply have used spells to look like a human and enter some metropolis and bought them.
Hindering the dragon from using his wealth by saying "well he couldn't have bought it because people don't trade with dragons" IS house-ruling.
And magic items can change size. It's interesting that someone first changes the size of his weapons and bracers and then wonders how a dragon uses his magical items.
Matthias: That's a MUCH better eidolon, though still lacking in the BaB department. Note though that FighterMan is just quickly half-optimized and this was BEFORE the APG; there's quite a few tricks in there he could use, methinks.
Note though that bonuses from the same source don't stack, so several defending weapons don't stack (much like how several instances of the same spell doesn't stack even if cast by different people).
Also, doing what Kamelguru did and optimizing the dragon isn't in any way wrong. While I would probably have used a little less wealth on equipment, it's not in any way house ruling and is fine if you play it against an optimized party.
And asking "who would craft that for him?" isn't in any way relevant. The dragon can buy stuff just like players can, why not? Sure, you might say there's a stigma in the local village against trading with red dragons, but that's usually not where you buy stuff. He might have gotten it through eating adventurers. He might have traded it with some extraplanar being like a devil or the like. He might simply have used spells to look like a human and enter some metropolis and bought them.
Hindering the dragon from using his wealth by saying "well he couldn't have bought it because people don't trade with dragons" IS house-ruling.
And magic items can change size. It's interesting that someone first changes the size of his weapons and bracers and then wonders how a dragon uses his magical items.
I agree that a dragon could use items. Just keep in mind that CRs for monsters without PC levels are calculated assuming NO equipment. Adding equipment will alter the CR, frequently rather drastically. (Like taking a AC 38 dragon to AC 63 - THIS DEFINITELY AFFECTS THE CHALLENGE) Keep in mind that fighterman would need natural 20s to hit this dragon. In fact, other than certain very optimized cases, no physical damage class would be able to hit that dragon, essentially making casters the only way to deal with it. Yay for making half the classes in the game useless. I would consider that poor encounter design. But that's just me!
I don't pimp the joke monsters, because they are jokes. A shoggoth is the CR19 equivalent of an ogre. Looks bad, but once you actually get to fighting it, it is laughably easy. They had one as a boss encounter for a level _10_ module. That alone speaks volumes about how utterly weak it is.
And no, this does not increase CR. It is within the treasure limit. If I pimp it like a PLAYER, then yes, it goes up. But then we are talking a completely different monster.
Ice Deep: Dragons like treasures. What better treasures than powerful magical items? And hells yes, it is more common to find powerful magical items than truckloads of copper, silver and gold. What manner of super-intelligent being, almost a millennium old, chooses to keep absurd amounts of coins when he can have PORTABLE treasure?
And for the record: An ancient+ dragon is NOT going to be average by my table. Forget it. This one is barely tweaked. Got rid of the awful vital strike tree for better feats, beyond that, he is pretty vanilla, just with gear. The notion of a dragon being run right out of the bestiary does NOT invoke terror in me. It makes me think of mexican birthdays. (For those slow on the pick-up; yes, I am comparing them to pinatas)
And let's turn this whole argument around: If only players have treasures, do your evil wizards NOT have headbands of intelligence, rods, staves and wands? Do they sit on piles of sweet sweet loot for the PCs, waiting to be killed?
Or what if I rolled a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor? Should I NOT have the dragon wear it? They are arrogant, but still have Int in the 20s.
vip00: It is abundantly clear that you have never GMed beyond lv10. This is a CR20 encounter, meaning it is supposed to be a fair challenge for the party. What should happen here is:
Rd1:
- Dragon does his stuff as described above.
- Cleric casts Quickened Blessing of Fervor and Miracle to ask that the dragon be clear for all to see.
- Wizard casts Disjunction and quickened Interposing Fist
- Fighter activates an "I CAN FLY" item and moves to full attack next round
- Ranger fires a metric poop-ton of dragon bane arrows and drops it to half HP, because it's AC is now merely 39 or so.
Rd2:
- Dragon realizes it has made a terrible mistake, wishes it had teleport, tears into fighter, but mostly misses, since his AC is 50+.
- Wizard lays into it with some Save or You Suck. Like Hold Monster.
- Cleric does the same.
- Fighter cuts it's HP down even further.
- Ranger finishes it off.
Rd3: GM fumes because he spent hours on the damned dragon.
What manner of super-intelligent being, almost a millennium old, chooses to keep absurd amounts of coins when he can have PORTABLE treasure?
The kind of super-intelligent being that is naturally a hoarder and stays in the same place. Who needs portable treasure if you don't go anywhere?
Or what if I rolled a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor? Should I NOT have the dragon wear it?
Even if you made the argument that it could somehow wear a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor won't be doing him any good.
I don't pimp the joke monsters, because they are jokes. A shoggoth is the CR19 equivalent of an ogre. Looks bad, but once you actually get to fighting it, it is laughably easy. They had one as a boss encounter for a level _10_ module. That alone speaks volumes about how utterly weak it is.
And no, this does not increase CR. It is within the treasure limit. If I pimp it like a PLAYER, then yes, it goes up. But then we are talking a completely different monster.
Ice Deep: Dragons like treasures. What better treasures than powerful magical items? And hells yes, it is more common to find powerful magical items than truckloads of copper, silver and gold. What manner of super-intelligent being, almost a millennium old, chooses to keep absurd amounts of coins when he can have PORTABLE treasure?
And for the record: An ancient+ dragon is NOT going to be average by my table. Forget it. This one is barely tweaked. Got rid of the awful vital strike tree for better feats, beyond that, he is pretty vanilla, just with gear. The notion of a dragon being run right out of the bestiary does NOT invoke terror in me. It makes me think of mexican birthdays. (For those slow on the pick-up; yes, I am comparing them to pinatas)
And let's turn this whole argument around: If only players have treasures, do your evil wizards NOT have headbands of intelligence, rods, staves and wands? Do they sit on piles of sweet sweet loot for the PCs, waiting to be killed?
Or what if I rolled a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor? Should I NOT have the dragon wear it? They are arrogant, but still have Int in the 20s.
You're still missing the point. NPC CRs are calculated to include a certain amount of GEAR. You can find that table here. Note that a 20th level fighter (CR 19) should have a grand total of 159,000 in gear. Tell me, what do you think is a bigger challenge? A level 20 fighter with 159,000 of gear or a 25 HD dragon with 200,000+ of gear? Those *should* be both CR 19...
Monster CRs are calculated assuming no gear that is not listed in the monster entry. If you change that, you change the CR of the encounter. If you are interested, the CR balancing chart for homebrew monsters is here. Your dragon listed above would weigh in at an estimated CR 27 or so.
The CR 20 is for the Creature "as is".
I was pitting my character against a CR 20 and pwning it hard.
If you want to make it a CR 24 fine, but that is WAAAAY above my level.
I already put a link to the PFSRD which shows the rule concerning resizing items. Gargantuan items won't shrink to medium size when you touch them... items that are traded between "characters of varying size" can be adjusted! Nevertheless, go ahead and put gargantuan items on the Dragon. THAT INCREASES ITS CR!!! The point of this thread is not to show how one character will get OWNED by a CR 24 encounter.. that is a given.
Again, the point of this thread is the Summoner Class +Eidolon being overpowered and needing toned down.
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Even if you made the argument that it could somehow wear a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor won't be doing him any good.
Again, magic items change size to fit the wearer.
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Nevertheless, go ahead and put gargantuan items on the Dragon. THAT INCREASES ITS CR!!! The point of this thread is not to show how one character will get OWNED by a CR 24 encounter.. that is a given.
Again, the point of this thread is the Summoner Class +Eidolon being overpowered and needing toned down.
The point of this thread is not to show how one character will get OWNED by a CR 24 encounter.. that is a given.
Again, the point of this thread is the Summoner Class +Eidolon being overpowered and needing toned down.
If you missed the point of this thread... read the above!
:-) Thanks... have a spectacular day!
*sigh*
vip00: Step 2 in the monster creation is the monster when it is NAKED. Just like how a fighter is kinda wimpy if he has NO gear.
Scroll down and you find that the treasure index EXPLICITLY states that treasure = gear used as well as furniture and useless crap.
Cartigan: Amulet of NA provides an enchancement to NA, not provide an existing. Meaning it stacks with innate NA.
The CR increase ONLY comes into play when you give the monster PLAYER CHARACTER WEALTH. Multiple APs back me on this. *crosses fingers that a developer will pop in and point this out*
And as I added to my previous post, this is not a problem for a functional lv20 party. 2 rounds, 3 if they roll badly.
Even if you made the argument that it could somehow wear a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor won't be doing him any good.Again, magic items change size to fit the wearer.
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
1) You'd have to make the argument that it has fingers somehow
2) Natural Armor doesn't stack.EDIT: Or it won't stack with the aforementioned barkskin at least.
1) You'd have to make the argument that it has fingers somehow
2) Natural Armor doesn't stack.
EDIT: Or it won't stack with the aforementioned barkskin at least.
1) Done
2) It's an enhancement to natural armor, not a natural armor bonus. It works like enhancement bonuses to armor bonuses on magical armors (a +3 full plate has a +3 enhancement bonus to it's armor class)On the edit, I agree.
EDIT: Do you even have any RAW reference to needing fingers to use rings? I might have missed something, but:
Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers. Only a rare few have charges—most magic rings are permanent and potent magic items. Anyone can use a ring.
A character can only effectively wear two magic rings. A third magic ring doesn't work if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings.
Neither that part or the part about magic item slots mentions fingers. The only instances of the word are AFAIK:
This ring is actually a magic leather cord that ties around a finger.
and:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger.
So the first case only talks about a specific ring, and the second is just an example of how a magic item might be activated.
Not saying you're wrong, but I can't find anything in the RAW about it and the "Anyone can use a ring" is kind of explicit; it would require explicit exceptions.
Done
So it has fingers because it has large claws? Sure hope I don't run into a Dire Bear with a Ring of Invisibility.
stringburka..... why not show us a picture of a dragon dripping with magic items? That dragon looks aweful bare!
stringburka..... why not show us a picture of a dragon dripping with magic items? That dragon looks aweful bare!
Artwork aren't rules. In that case, high-level items won't exist in the APs because you never see them. Look! 14th level rangers should have regular heavy crossbows! Oh, wait...
Now I kinda wanna make a REALLY pimped out Black Dragon, with the CR adjustment for having gear like a player.
"Oh my god, that dragon... it is covered in gaudy trinkets!"
"YOU WILL RESPECT A DRAGON NAMED SLICKBACK!"
"Err... forgive me, Slickback."
"NO! NOT SLICKBACK! 'A DRAGON NAMED SLICKBACK' YOU USE THE WHOLE THING!"
"..."
Now I need to see if they are making more Boondocks.
EDIT: Do you even have any RAW reference to needing fingers to use rings? I might have missed something, but:
Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers. Only a rare few have charges—most magic rings are permanent and potent magic items. Anyone can use a ring.
A character can only effectively wear two magic rings. A third magic ring doesn't work if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings.
Neither that part or the part about magic item slots mentions fingers. The only instances of the word are AFAIK:
This ring is actually a magic leather cord that ties around a finger.and:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger.So the first case only talks about a specific ring, and the second is just an example of how a magic item might be activated.
Not saying you're wrong, but I can't find anything in the RAW about it and the "Anyone can use a ring" is kind of explicit; it would require explicit exceptions.
So rings are slotless magic items?!
Done
So it has fingers because it has large claws? Sure hope I don't run into a Dire Bear with a Ring of Invisibility.
See above. RAW doesn't even seem to require fingers. Anyway, there's something to put the ring around, if such a thing would be needed. That you choose to define the fingers as claws exclusively, and thus not elligable for rings, means skeletons can't use rings either.
So rings are slotless magic items?!
Of course not. You have two ring slots. Neither of which requires fingers. Should you want, you could probably do it the emo way and have snakebites of rings of protection.
So rings are slotless magic items?!
No, rings just don't have to be on fingers. Wearing a ring as an earring is perfectly valid and still takes one of your two ring slots.
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lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation.lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."
Really?!? It's common? I must be crashing all of the wrong dungeons...
Really?!? It's common? I must be crashing all of the wrong dungeons...lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation.lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."
You mean scry&fry them, ending whatever threat they hold without having to do anything except teleport in and nova?
The reason many highest level dungeons have these kinds of things in place is to they may actually hinder anyone over lv9.