I don't get what you guys are reading...
At 20th level, a summoner and his eidolon share a true connection. As a standard action, the summoner can assume the shape of his eidolon, copying all of its evolutions, form, and abilities. His Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores change to match the base scores of his eidolon. He can choose to have any gear that he carries become absorbed by his new form, as with spells from the polymorph subschool. Items with continuous effects continue to function while absorbed in this way. The summoner loses his natural attacks and all racial traits (except bonus feats, skills, and languages) in favor of the abilities granted by his eidolon’s evolutions. The summoner retains all of his class features. The summoner can keep this form for a number of minutes per day equal to his summoner level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. The summoner can end this effect as a free action.
Where does it Say that my Aspect: Limbs(2) and Greater Aspec: Limbsx2(4) doesn't remain?
Also, I hope they do a MAJOR overhaul on the Summoner (and a few more APG classes)... that wouldn't be bad at all. They needed somemore testing time on the APG IMHO.
Stay tuned for more "My lv20 imaginary character that would never happen in-game can beat up your lv20 imaginary character that would never happen in-game, neener neener doo doo, dunk your head in poo poo!" right after these important messages.
And James is right. While dodge bonuses DO stack, bonuses from the same source does not stack in any instance. Defending weapon is a source.
Each defending weapon is a separate source.
... and campaigns do go to 20th level.... and someday they will go beyond that when Epic Level handbooks come.
Absolutely not.... those are NAMED bonuses.
Ring of Protection +5 = Deflection Bonus which doesn't atack with other Deflection bonuses.... etc for Armor Bonuses
Unnamed sources always stack...
Even if you call this source "named"... the source itself SAYS that it stacks.
Neither rings nor armor/bracers are unnamed bonuses (not to mention that bracers can't go above +8). So no, nice try.
I can see the argument for bonuses from several defending weapons being considered as being from the same source. However the defending ability itself says that it stacks, which trumps general rule.
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So two Rings of Protection +5 would give me a +10 to my armor class, while Bracers of Armor +9 and +5 Fullplate would give me +23?
Somehow that doesn't sound right...
it doesn't sound right because ring of protection is a typed and does not contain a clause saying it stacks with all other bonuses. I could see how they would stack if they did.
Sarcasm can't always be read in a post..[/taking notes]
Better yet, I cast Protection from Whatever on him.
I sure hope no one neutral Dominates him, then.
This eidolon is okay, but frankly, it doesn't seem all that tough to me for a 20th level character. If a 20th level character doesn't seem ridiculously broken (and you wanted it to be), you built it wrong.
Um... what if the player has Fire Resistance 10 but his Eidolon has Fire immunity! Whatever will happen!? lol
The player will obviously only gain one of the bonuses (just like your example with Large and Huge) but this isn't because he loses his original form, including aspects... but rather because a player cannot be both Large and Huge at the same time.
I believe the larger of the bonuses would take over.
As for your first post, a Fighter may wield two weapons at once. However, my creature and I can wield more. (just like a Merylith). Am I right in thinking you don't even like the way a Defending Weapon works when a player has a normal ammount of arms?? I'm not clearly understanding where's your problem.
@Dire Mongoose
The Eidolon and Summoner in Eidolon form are on pg 2 towards the bottom.
It's not the Eidolon alone that is overpowered... it's me in the Twin Eidolon form... with my Eidolon.
PS: Go ahead and Dominate it. I dismiss it and Summon Monster 9 as a Standard action next turn, right next to whoever cast Dominate. My creature comes in and is immediately able to take it's turn.
so about that summoner..... in non-edilion form... can I get the stats for that?
You DO get to keep things specific to your form, if the polymorph ability says you do. Specific rules trump general rules.
I get to keep my Aspects, which are clearly stated to be a class abilities, which remain when I change (as stated).
The same is true of Defending weapons... because the specific rule for Defending trumps the general rule of stacking bonuses.
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
As a free action, I transfer all of the bonus from weapon 1 to AC... it stacks with all other bonuses to AC.
As a free action, I transfer all of the bonus from Weapon 2 to AC... it stacks with all other bonuses to AC.
etc.
Same type bonuses don't stack unless they are dodge bonuses.
"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different."
Yeah it is under the magic section, but everyone knows this is really a general rule. Your quote says it stacks with "all other" affects, which it does. Another defending bonus is not an "other" affect.
Other as defined by Webster: : not the same : different <any other color would have been better> <something other than it seems to be>
defending and defending are definitely the same thing.
Each defending weapon is a separate source.
... and campaigns do go to 20th level.... and someday they will go beyond that when Epic Level handbooks come.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
I also noticed
"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "
Defending is an untyped bonus, so the "stacking effect" paragraph isn't applicable.
However, if each defending weapon is considered a different source, each spell must also be if it grants an untyped bonus - so a cleric could for example carry a bag of rabbits and a wand of death knell, and before combat slaughter them to grant himself a +20 on caster level for 10 minutes. Seems a little too much, don't you think?
Defending is an untyped bonus, so the "stacking effect" paragraph isn't applicable.
However, if each defending weapon is considered a different source, each spell must also be if it grants an untyped bonus - so a cleric could for example carry a bag of rabbits and a wand of death knell, and before combat slaughter them to grant himself a +20 on caster level for 10 minutes. Seems a little too much, don't you think?
For the sake of argument lets say it is untyped.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
The source is still the defending property so only the higher one takes place.
Defending is an untyped bonus, so the "stacking effect" paragraph isn't applicable.
However, if each defending weapon is considered a different source, each spell must also be if it grants an untyped bonus - so a cleric could for example carry a bag of rabbits and a wand of death knell, and before combat slaughter them to grant himself a +20 on caster level for 10 minutes. Seems a little too much, don't you think?
For the sake of argument lets say it is untyped.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
The source is still the defending property so only the higher one takes place.
Yes, I agree with you, but he sees the different weapons as different sources.
Regardless, for me it's enough to see that it doesn't stack with "any other" effect to consider the matter settled. If it DID stack with other defending weapons, it wouldn't need to have that word in there.
Let me Begin by pointing out the AC of the Eidolon based on the Defending Weapon bonuses isn't what I was concentrating on in the first place....
... it's the enormous Damage output, debuff ability, adaptability, survivability of the Summoner Class. It's too much IMHO.
Now, as for the Bonus question... all of this could be due to a typo error, but I'd like to think that they word things certain ways on purpose.
"Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses."
"Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses."
"Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses."
Now Granted, other instances where bonuses stack with itself say things like:
"Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses."
"Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source."
This is what Defending Weapon says:"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn."
Logically, this phrase includes other bonuses of the same kind and would need to exclude it as worded in previous areas to limit it more. Those instances where the bonuses include statements like "even other dodge bonuses" don't need to be there, as the words previous to them already include "other Dodge bonuses". It would need the addition of an exclusionary statement to not stack.
Johnny has 10 Red plates, 10 Blue Plates, and 10 Black plates.
Red Plates stack with all others.
Red Platers stack with all others, including other Red plates.
These two statements are essentially the same. (except more words in one)
Blue Plates stack with all others.
Blue plates stack with all others, except other blue plates.
These two statements are different.
I personally, rescind my statement before... I think that this is an enhancement bonus to AC, specially worded so that it stacks with other enhancement bonuses to AC.
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As for your first post, a Fighter may wield two weapons at once. However, my creature and I can wield more. (just like a Merylith). Am I right in thinking you don't even like the way a Defending Weapon works when a player has a normal ammount of arms?? I'm not clearly understanding where's your problem.
+1 Defending Gauntlets
+1 Defending Spiked Shield+1 Defending Weapon
+1 Defending Armor Spikes
+1 Defending Amulet of Mighty Fists(if the DM thinks Defending can be placed on Unarmed strikes.
Getting a permanent Greater Magic Weapon on all of those wouldn't be to hard.
Yes, you can WEAR them... but you may only Wield 2.
As to the other comments:1. The summoner via the capstone ability can suddenly deal thug damage at 20th, while it couldn't really before. The eidolon deals pet/thug damage along the way. Knee-jerk reactions to these can see it as overpowered, but it's not really the case.
2. Your stats are off. Somehow you only are getting a +29 to hit? I count that as 15BAB +19STR +1 focus +4weapon -2size -4TWF should net you a +33 to hit and not a +29.
3. You're targeting an AC of 32? That's low for level 20. Consider what your DPR becomes against an AC of 45 or higher. It halves at 45 and gets worse from there... how much damage could you do to yourself on a full attack (as an example)? An optimized fighter is hitting AC 45 with his last iterative while power attacking only missing on a natural 1. There's a world of difference there. Of course if what you fight has AC 'yes' then the slew of attacks is going to add up... same as in low levels.. but it doesn't make monks overpowered.
4. Your 'debuff' ability is greater dispel magic... at a point when you're talking debuffs as being via disjunction. You're behind the game.
5. You have poor saves (below level even), poor senses, low init, no resistances, and only a medium AC.
Let me guess what is happening here.
You are used to playing around level 12 or so. Am I close? You've then projected on ahead and envisioned level 20. It's...
1)Can Deal thug damage? What??
2) Power Attack -4... but I would get rid of it for high ACs. I certainly didn't include all the things you included, like having an auto flanker (+2), or haste +1, other party buffs, or crazy numbers of wands and Personal Buffs.
3) I've already pointed out multiple times that it outdamages the other classes, both against an AC of 32 and an AC of 44. As ACs get crazy high, I still do more damage, because I have more chances to roll a 20 with my 18 attacks. I chose 32 only because whoever built fighterman was using that AC to compare damage. You will see that my damage at an AC of 44 (+6 from CR 20 avg) is still, extremely high compared to other classes.
4)Lol, Greater Dispel is fine. So what if I can't use disjuction... I still remove buffs well enough.
5) My saves are fine, My Eidolon's are low but I don't even care.
Please stop acting like I am referring to normal power levels at 20th level. I am referring to one class, which is making other classes obsolete. Please, say something relevent instead of bashing my intelligence.
Because the problem seems to be lv20, and you seem to believe than anyone who have ever actually played to that level even cares about CR (you're not getting XP anyway), or that the bestiary monsters AS IS ever gets used for anything but random encounters. If I am going to make a scripted encounter for lv20, I am using fiends with levels, dragons with templates and items, heck even the tarrasque would be changed considerably in order to lift it from its current "joke monster" status. Any mediocre lv20 party will take that sucker down without much trouble.
And for the defending weapons: If a developer is asked about it, it WILL be shot down, and some FAQ clarification will be printed if people even care, because it is such an obvious abuse that no GMs will ever allow it. And when it comes to loopholes, the GM does it far better than a player, because unlike them, he is not restricted to the rules.
Until lv20, the summoner himself is a squishy with no damage potential of his own, and the eidolon is little more than the druid pet's big brother. Wow me at lv10, and show that it can make the fighter obsolete there, and I would be more prone to agree with the statement.
Also, there is a difference between "build-a-fighter" lv20 and actual fighter played to lv20. If you just create a fighter at lv20, he will suck. Any martial character created at lv20 will suck. This is a sad fact of the game. However, Lv20 fighters usually have artifact swords, campaign perks and plotanium armor. I own at an AP where the fighter will end up wielding a vorpal artifact sword +5. And rarely, if ever, any huge weapons that was three flavors of awesome. And even then, the casters are the ones doing the actual work, while the combat focused people just hack things down when they have already "lost".
The Saves were low because I didn't add all equipment. I have now added the equipment which I posted in other posts (which I can most certainly afford). These spreads are UNBUFFED. I can always Quicken Haste ,wait to be blessed, drink potions, or listen to a Bards wonderful songs... whatever. I don't need it. Average AC for CR 20 is 38.... The Summoner class has been DEMOLISHING others with damage at an AC of 44.
Rolf Balkan
20 Summoner
True Neutral Human
Init +5 ;Senses Perception +24
AC 35 (+5 Dex, +5 Deflection, Armor +8, Natural +3,+4 Eidolon Near)
HP 274 (20d8 +180)
Fort +22 Reflex +20 Will +25 (-4 when away from Eidolon)
Evasion
Spd 30ft,
Melee (Doesn't matter until changed)
Str 14 Dex 20 Con 24 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 24
Skills -Doesn't matter...
Aspect- Limbs(Arms)(2) Note: This allows me to choose MultiWeapon FIghting.
Greater Aspect- 2xLimbs(Arms)(4)--but only takes 2 from eidolon.
Feats Arcane Strike, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata),Toughness,Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Falcata) Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, Quicken Spell
Pertinent Items Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Circlet of Mental Prowess +4, Ring of Evasion,Bracers of Armor +8, Cloak of Resistence +5
Rolf Balkan (In Eidolon Form)
20 Summoner
Huge True Neutral Human
Init +8 ;Senses Darkvision 60ft,Perception +24
AC 59 (+26 Natural, +8 Dex, -2 Size, +8 Armor,+5 Deflection, +4 Near Eidolon)
HP 314 (20d8 +220)
Fort +24 Reflex +23 Will +25 (-4 when away from Eidolon)
Evasion
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +4 Falcata + 29/+24/+19 (3d6+49[17-20/x3]), 14 +4 Falcata +29 (3d6+25[17-20/x3])
This is including power attack (-4 to Hit) and not including any party or Self buffs
Str 48 Dex 26 Con 28 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 24
Skills Don't matter
Aspect- Limbs(Arms)(2) Note: This allows me to choose MultiWeapon FIghting.
Greater Aspect- 2xLimbs(Arms)(4)--but only takes 2 from eidolon.
Feats Arcane Strike, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata),Toughness,Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Falcata) Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, Quicken Spell
Pertinent Items Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Circlet of Mental Prowess +4, Ring of Evasion, Cloak of Resistence +5, Bracers of Armor +8
Myrrk
20 Eidolon
Huge True Neutral Outsider
Init +3;Senses Darkvision 60ft, Perception +18
AC 56 (38 while in attack mode)(+23 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size, +4 Mage Armor)
HP 165 (15d10 + 90)
Fort +15 Reflex +10 Will +15
Improved Evasion, +4 will vs enchantment
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +2 Defending Falcata + 25/+20/+15 (3d6+38[17-20/x3]), 8 +2 Defending Kukri +25 (2d6+16[15-20])
Str 42 Dex 20 Con 22 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Skills Fly +17, Perception +18, Use Magic Device+18, Acrobatics+21
Biped
Huge(10)
Limbs (Arms)+(Claws)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Legs)
Flight (Winged)(70ft)(4)
Total= 22 (6 points going to Summoner for aspects)
Critical Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata), Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency(Kukri), Improved Critical (Kukri), Staggering Critical
If you'd like to say something relevant, post your damage class build and put forth a monster. I will give myself the same buffs and make slight modifications if I find you are catering to yourself (like throwing Bane on a weapon and then saying that you face that creature).
Greater Aspect and Aspect aren't being abused!!!! They are being USED!... the way they should be.
You've got a build that is abusing aspect and trying to have it apply when you are in different a different shape.You wind up dealing damage like an optimized thug against low AC opponents.
I'm not trying to bash your intelligence, but you are not showing any real 20th level PC here now are you? Rather you have made it up on the spot to try and prove a point. You are missing the mark here.
-James
This character is real and just fine. I have placed the ACTUAL BOOK CONTENT which says that I get to keep Aspect and Greater Aspect while in Twin Eidolon form. It's in bold and for everyone to see. It says I keep it! If something says "You lose your form, except your arms"
would you continue to argue that I lose my arms over and over..... it has an exception. I will post it AGAINLet me list the Class features for the Summoner:Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, Spells,Cantrips, Eidolon, Lifelink, Summon Monster, Body Senses, Sheild Ally, Makers Call,Transposition Aspect, Greater Sheild Ally, Life Bond, Merge Forms, Greater Aspect, Twin Eidolon.
Let me list the Class features for the Summoner:Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, Spells,Cantrips, Eidolon, Lifelink, Summon Monster, Body Senses, Sheild Ally, Makers Call,Transposition...
Here's the problem with that. When you assume the form of something else, you assume that thing's form.
You do not *lose* the class abilities of Aspect and Greater Aspect, in fact if you used those class abilities to take things like 'Skilled', or 'Magic Attacks', or 'Grab', then I'd say you keep those, as they are not inherently tied to your physical form.
However, you *must* lose all physical form changes. If you are a Humanoid with a tail and wings, and turn into a 10-armed monstrosity... you no longer have a tail and wings. Your physical form is a TWIN of your eidolon.
If you've got extra physical features you are not a twin. You aren't assuming the shape of your eidolon if you are a different shape from your eidolon.
I will point out that this is addressed in the text by saying that you lose all natural attacks. If you used greater aspect to pick up bite and claws... would twin eidolon allow you to keep those, or not? It says lose all natural attacks. It also says keep all class features. Which one wins?
I say it's both. Twin Eidolon causes you to lose all abilities that are tied to your physical form, whether they are there by class feature or not, while letting you keep abilities that are separate from your form. it's the only ruling that makes any sense when you look at what the ability actually does.
You cannot gain Claws unless you first take the Limbs Evolution.
It doesn't matter that you have limbs or legs, you need the Evolution first.
So in your example, you would not be able to choose claws unless you had limbs (and YES... if you did that they would remain when you changed forms).
You've got a build that is abusing aspect and trying to have it apply when you are in different a different shape.You wind up dealing damage like an optimized thug against low AC opponents.
I'm not trying to bash your intelligence, but you are not showing any real 20th level PC here now are you? Rather you have made it up on the spot to try and prove a point. You are missing the mark here.
-James
This character is real and just fine. I have placed the ACTUAL BOOK CONTENT which says that I get to keep Aspect and Greater Aspect while in Twin Eidolon form. It's in bold and for everyone to see. It says I keep it! If something says "You lose your form, except your arms"
would you continue to argue that I lose my arms over and over..... it has an exception. I will post it AGAIN** spoiler omitted **
Let me list the Class features for the Summoner:Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, Spells,Cantrips, Eidolon, Lifelink, Summon Monster, Body Senses, Sheild Ally, Makers Call,Transposition...
So you are saying you can use Aspect and Greater Aspect along with Twin Eidolon even though they are all just upgrades of each other. Could you explain how Aspect and Greater Aspect can be used at the same time?
I do see that the ability could be written better. Maybe Twin Eidolon should have been called Final Aspect.
So what happens if your eidolon and you have different base forms? Someone asked this before but I never saw an answer from you.
I believe that they are referring to the Natural Attacks given by your original form (ie, human, dragon, derro, fey etc).
What they have said basically takes away ALL natural attacks except those granted by Class Features.
There is nothing wrong about it.
If I say to you: Hey, Remove your baseball uniform and put your normal clothes on. You get to keep your glove on as well.
Well... obviously the second sentence is the exception... correct?
Could you explain how Aspect and Greater Aspect can be used at the same time?
I do see that the ability could be written better. Maybe Twin Eidolon should have been called Final Aspect.
So what happens if your eidolon and you have different base forms? Someone asked this before but I never saw an answer from you.
Well, It's not mentioned that one power takes the place of the other. It is possible that that was what Pathfinder meant to happen, but it isn't outright said. I mean, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are two features, similarly named that stack effects at the same time. If it's not stated otherwise, this is what happens.
Nevertheless, I only transferred 6 points useing aspect anyway... I didn't do anything with the extra two that I believe I would get. So it doesn't matter to this summoner build.
You and your Eidolon cannot have different base forms. I don't understand where you got that from.... You mean, if your Eidolon is a Quadriped and you are a Human? Obviously you change into it's form, applying all your Aspects/Greater Aspects after the change.
Seriously, do how do you guys even play this game with some of the questions you are asking?
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Quick question: where are you carrying your 14 Huge falcatas? I mean, for the 23 hours 40 minutes that you're not a twin of your Eidolon.
With str 14, you're clearly using an extradimensional space of some sort. Haversacks? I guess you'd claim that the move action to withdraw a specific item from a haversack is reduced to a free action using Quick Draw.
So, since we have no "cubic volume" numbers for the falcatas, I guess we look at weight, 16 lbs per sword. So, you get to put 1 in each side pocket, 5 in the middle pocket. Assuming your DM allows the weapon sheath to count as part of the weapon weight. Otherwise, you're down to 4 in the middle pocket, and need a third haversack. They have to be sheathed or otherwise wrapped, of course, to avoid piercing through your haversacks from the inside and destroying them.
So, is it your position that the feat Quick Draw allows you to withdraw 14 items from 6 pouches spread across 2 backpacks, as well as unsheathe all 14, as part of a free action?
EDIT:
Rather than just guessing that a Huge weapon is weight doubled, then doubled, it's slightly more RAW to use the armor table from p153, which has Huge as a x5 base weight. So, with 20 lb falcatas, you can only just barely fit 6 in a Haversack, and then only if your DM agrees that the sheathe is part of the listed weight and that cubic volume isn't an issue.
So, now it's 14 items from 6 pouches spread across 3 backpacks. All of which are, per the magic of the Haversack, simultaneously "on top"?
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Stay tuned for more "My lv20 imaginary character that would never happen in-game can beat up your lv20 imaginary character that would never happen in-game, neener neener doo doo, dunk your head in poo poo!" right after these important messages.
And James is right. While dodge bonuses DO stack, bonuses from the same source does not stack in any instance. Defending weapon is a source.
This.
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Because the problem seems to be lv20, and you seem to believe than anyone who have ever actually played to that level even cares about CR (you're not getting XP anyway), or that the bestiary monsters AS IS ever gets used for anything but random encounters. If I am going to make a scripted encounter for lv20, I am using fiends with levels, dragons with templates and items, heck even the tarrasque would be changed considerably in order to lift it from its current "joke monster" status. Any mediocre lv20 party will take that sucker down without much trouble.
And for the defending weapons: If a developer is asked about it, it WILL be shot down, and some FAQ clarification will be printed if people even care, because it is such an obvious abuse that no GMs will ever allow it. And when it comes to loopholes, the GM does it far better than a player, because unlike them, he is not restricted to the rules.
Until lv20, the summoner himself is a squishy with no damage potential of his own, and the eidolon is little more than the druid pet's big brother. Wow me at lv10, and show that it can make the fighter obsolete there, and I would be more prone to agree with the statement.
Also, there is a difference between "build-a-fighter" lv20 and actual fighter played to lv20. If you just create a fighter at lv20, he will suck. Any martial character created at lv20 will suck. This is a sad fact of the game. However, Lv20 fighters usually have artifact swords, campaign perks and plotanium armor. I own at an AP where the fighter will end up wielding a vorpal artifact sword +5. And rarely, if ever, any huge weapons that was three flavors of awesome. And even then, the casters are the ones doing the actual work, while the combat focused people just hack things down when they have already "lost".
Well...and everyone is supposed to have an awesome capstone power at Level 20...that is the point. Most classes get a death effect or equal to a death effect at level 20. Hell, monks get one earlier.
If you want to argue a class is overpowered, do a 20 level build. Show what it is at each level and what you add, at each level, and look at it level by level vs things it would face at that level.
My opinion so far is that Summoners are fine, with any "overpowered" aspects handled by it's kryptonite like weaknesses.
ciretose: Comparing lv20 characters is pointless. The game is over at lv20. Any GM that has actually played lv20 will tell you the same thing: Balance is GONE. There is not even a hint of it. It is down to initiative-combat, rocket tag and rock-paper-scissors. If the party wizard gets to act and has the right spells (or right ability to just do whatever he darned well pleases, which a lv20 wizard pretty much does by default) he can target your weakness, and has a 40% or so chance to kill anything outright.
The "overpowered" summoner20 build depends on the capstone ability, which YES, is powerful. Granted the caveats that you get to have all the customized gear, time to transmogrify to meet demands, manage to circumvent lv20 hazards, and so forth. It DOES outdamage anything against CR-equivalent out-of-the-book beasts. In this context the summoner is overpowered compared to other classes.
But I can hardly imagine this happening in an actual game. The summoner build needs to revolve around the premise of being awesome at lv20, and would thus suffer from lv1-19, and then it is more than fair to me that he gets to "win" at lv20.
Oh yeah, the feats for the last example eidolon seems flawed to me. I think you're taking at least 1 feat earlier than you actually qualify for it.
1) I just don't see these Kryptonite Weaknesses you refer to. I only see the Summoner/Eidolon outdamaging other damage builds by a huge margin and also able to cast spells and tank.
If you read the other posts in the thread you would see the Summoner and Eidolon doing FAR above other damage builds.
2) There are multiple ways to carry the swords.
- Have my Eidolon Hold them aroudn its body as I ride it.
- Efficient Quiver's (This would be my first choice)
- Leadership Feat (Squires)
3)Defending Weapon specifically states that it stacks with all other bonuses. This statement is inclusionary, and needs an exclusionary statement of some kind before it becomes true. I believe this bonus to be an Enhancement bonus to AC on the sword. As we all know, enhancement bonuses from a Shield will stack with enhancement bonuses on armor, etc. Even if it is a nameless bonus... see the first sentence of this paragraph.
Specific rules outweigh general rules... and are always thought to be the exception to general rules.
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2) There are multiple ways to carry the swords.
- Have my Eidolon Hold them aroudn its body as I ride it.
- Efficient Quiver's (This would be my first choice)
- Leadership Feat (Squires)
I only ask because repeatedly above you claimed that when/if you come up against an enemy that quickly dispatches/disables/dominates your Eidolon, you can swap over to Twin form and do more damage than your Eidolon without even a round spent buffing.
Eidolon carrying sword? Not much good if its dead or dominated.
Leadership feat? Hope your first mook fight of the day doesn't have an AOE...piles of ash don't carry swords very well.
Efficient Quiver? Here you're getting closer, but I don't really buy that a 20 lb Huge falcata qualifies as "the same general size and shape as a bow"