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It sounds like everyone is in agreement that doing over 75% less damage than another class who also has non-combat utility is acceptable to some people. Since PFS organized play is very heavily oriented toward combat, it is reasonable to say that rogues are horrifically unbalanced in at least a very common form of Pathfinder. Point proven since I think even 40% less damage is appalling. I will stop replying here unless challenged...
In an actual game, fighter can be invaluable in combat situations, but he really shouldn't dominate a well-balanced, versatile scenario that involves things other than smashing stuff. Unfortunately things like PFS organized play (where no one ever dies from a trap and you can 'rush' to the next combat) make the emphasis on combat most important. I think all classes should be combat-balanced for this reason, and the rogue is clearly not. I agree it is possible through a ton of GM engineering to balance the rogue (namely add many deadly magical traps), but Paizo should at least try to make the rogue appeal to combat-intensive scenarios in my opinion. Also, people focus on combat because you have hard numbers to balance (like I posted above, which proves the rogue to be a relative total joke) and regardless of the balance in overly trapped scenarios, you want each class to give the impression of usefulness. Yes, I am a total min/maxing combat-focused player, but there are a lot of people like me who greatly weight combat-effectiveness in terms of party utility. Since no one can post a rogue that does even a 1/4 of the damage of not even the top DPR class, can we all at least agree that the rogue is in severe need of a combat buff for combat-oriented scenarios? That is all I want to convince people of...
I'm not talking about action economy, I'm talking about the effects of haste on an entire group and a level 6 Eidolon that does in one full attack: +11, 2d6+16 + trip (bite)
That is one single full round attack at level 6. Why should anyone believe you if you can't post and prove that a rogue can do at least 1/4th the damage of a class that isn't the top DPR?
Our rogues (and other medium BAB classes) generally bring decent damage to the table I don't know who you are grouping with but I think I'd have a heart attack if I completed a PFS scenario where a rogue did >1/4 of my damage. There have been MANY times where I did more in one round than a rogue did in an entire scenario (counting haste as contributory DPR). And since I'm not even the top DPR class, I think Paizo is out of their mind thinking rogues don't need a severe buff. You can't compare a Rogue with Bard DPR since Bard has way more contributory DPR, the song alone can do as much contributory DPR as the entire rogue output. You do realize I can blow away a rogue's contributory DPR without an Eidolon OR summons just by casting Haste once and doing nothing the rest of the combat? This is why it takes about 4-5 rogues put together to match a summoner in combat.
I would still consider the pit and grease type spells despite teh save. You are designing an Eidolon to push people right? I wouldn't. You are almost always going to caste haste and have the Eidolon move up in the first round. From then on, why try pushing when you have a devastating full round attack + trip? I think Summoners are much better at buffing than controlling. I'd leave that to the pros :) On round 2, cast Enlarge Person on your 2h wielding fighter/barbarian with your reach rod, or Bulls strength etc.
Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner. Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner. This isn't an MMORPG where all people care about is top-level balance.
Someone needs to be able to heal, someone needs to be able to find traps. Absolutely false. Not only have I have never participated in a scenario where we needed to find a trap, I have never found a single instance where a rogue isn't far weaker than say a druid or almost any other class. Send a summoned animal ahead to find a trap or heal through it. In other words, unless a trap would cause nearly a TPK and a Rogue instead of a summoned animal (as cannon fodder) would somehow be required, they will still be incredibly weak. If we see a trap, my Eidolon disables device or it blows up in its face and we heal through it. If it dies, it is expendable and I still am more useful. Often you can just use magical means to get around it. Then I do over twice as much contributory damage (which includes haste) as a sneak attacking rogue, often over four times. My point is that unless magical trap disarming is absolutely required for a given scenario, they will be incredibly weak. I think I feel that the ninja is very good, too good in comparison to the rogue as is. Of course when you compare a class to the weakest class, they will be too good. I would definitely not want to nerf the ninja since it is nowhere near the most powerful class, I would instead want to buff the rogue. As it stands, the GM has to personally rewrite entire scenarios just to justify a rogue. The crux of the problem is that the Rogue is a whole base class designed around being situationally non-horrible (party-killing magical traps that you can't get around). They take up party slots that compete with classes useful in all scenarios. They should have been balanced properly so that they do damage that is as least 2/3 of a damage-focused class instead of 1/5th.
Here are the skill ranks I have at level 6: Summoner skills/rank levels:
Eidolon:
for arcane training, what has more uses, summoner (do not see the point, but probably am missing something), or take cleric so I can use all cleric wands like CLW without doing a UMD check? Summoners should never ever multiclass for obvious reasons (Eidolon). You can train UMD high but I've never found a need for CLW so far since of course everyone non-suicidal group has a healer and I have a rejuvenate Eidolon wand and am good at staying out of danger (I don't have one of those weak melee-summoner builds).
If you are a combat-focused min/maxer, I would be a lot more skeptical of the guide (though it is a great intro). Reach AoOs are a lot more rare when the GM decides to let NPCs fight in place (when possible). Nearly always, trading constant for situational damage results in a bad trade-off. Keep in mind Summoners who opt for control or defense at the expense of attack (which scales a lot better) will doubly suffer. You already must split your equipment slots between yourself and your Eidolon, so splitting equipment and evolutions again to opt out of damage is always poor in my opinion. I would consider how powerful you are on the occasional times that you lose your Eidolon (the answer is still sufficiently powerful) and would an imp natural armor really stop a reasonable percentage of Eidolon deaths? That said, you should surely pick up the resistance cantrip as you cannot equip 2 resistance cloaks at once. Also, trip will certainly provide you with AOOs (you can trip twice per round with haste) and you are sacrificing a ton of damage by opting out of Str+2 (then Str+4) and not always keeping up improved bite. Would reach-bite at level 6 really contribute more to a group than a ton of extra damage from improved bite, str+2 and power attack?
Saph, again I appreciate your hard work, but frankly so far someone who follows the guide will produce an underpowered summoner for combat. For example, your biped build has this full attack round: Greatsword +5 (2d6+6) "... this maximizes hitting power. When Enlarged this boasts a greatsword attack dealing an impressive 3d6+7 damage ..." This damage is less than half compared to a Biped with Summoners Call (Strength), power attack feat, and the evolutions Bite and Str+2: Bite: +5, d6+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7 Or evolutions of Bite, Improved Bite and Reach: Bite: +4, d6+9 and Claw: +4, d4+6 and Claw: +4, d4+6 Your damage range is 8-18 instead of 24-35. Hardly maximized hitting power. Not to mention you can only attack/kill one NPC instead of up to 3 per round. I appreciate that you want to give people lots of options but you fail to mention arguably the most important option: the summoner maximized for combat effectiveness. This would include Half-Elf, Biped, Improved Bite, Trip-Bite, Resistance and other things that are underrated in your guide for other builds.
I have never found a use for a Lantern archon - though it sounds useful, an Auroch has never failed to be more useful. Saph, please mention that when you summon you should always summon the beast 10 feet or more away to have it both charge (for the +2 attack) and flank (for +4 to all melee attacks on the round). Also, I would mention the smite evil/good ability should always be used immediately since summoned creature HPs are horrible and they often get 1-rounded. Finally, I would advise that there is no reason to first dispel the Eidolon then summon a monster. The RAW says that both the Eidolon and the Summons cannot exist at the same time. In other words, you should be able to summon a beast and it dispels the Eidolon for you in the same round. I would also specifically mention the utility of a fire elemental to kill swarm NPCs (which is VERY useful as the Eidolon and most spells are useless against them). Why is resistance not at a higher rating? You can't have 2 cloaks of resistance so it is a cantrip that is almost as valuable as a cloak of resistance (far better than message cantrip) Saph: Why isn't Biped rated higher than Quadruped? It has provably higher damage per round for every level (unless you are rating it for non-combat use like RPing, move speed or use as a mount etc)?
Will all you who infer that the APG has a hidden nerf to some bites but not others please read the slam text and answer to me why they even distinguish between base form evolutions and selected evolutions? It is obvious that Paizo found no need to make that distinction for any skill (like Bite) aside from Slam. Comprende?
Why Human Summoner's are gimp: Lame Human Summoner's Biped Eidolon level 5
Half-Elf Summoner's Biped would have Improved Bite, making the Bites +9 (2d6+15) At level 5, That is 5 more damage on the first round and 10 more damage per round after. At level 6 the human's eidolon picks up improved bite and the half-elf's eidolon swaps tentacle for gore: Level 6 Tentacle: +4, d4+d6+5
So at level 6 the half-elf has +5 more to one attack and when it hits it does 6.5 more damage. This evolution point discrepancy doubles at level 8, triples at level 12, etc. That is a MASSIVE amount of damage compared to the human's extra feat or skill. Name any class in the world that wouldn't trade a feat slot for +10 damage or double the +attack bonus and 6.5 more damage in an attack, etc. Now quintuple that discrepancy (+5 evolution points @ level 20) since humans scale to be HORRIBLY inferior to half-elf.
Agree with Saph here. High feat cost and summoner's are hardly useless without their Eidolon so the Summoner's survivability (as opposed to the Eidolon's) is paramount. I have on several occasions benefited from my Eidolon dying (or intentionally 'poofed' it to use a summon SLA).
Add a resistance bonus to another item or put it in a non-associated slot. Any solution that involves GP will directly nerf your Eidolon DPS. You should save nearly all your gold to outfit your Eidolon. It's also a +1 bonus, making it by definition useless 95% of the time. It's not bad or anything, but 19 out of 20 times it will make zero difference I don't know how you can go from nearly 100% useful to 95% useless. If you combine all the rolls in a scenario for saves, attacks and skill checks you will WAY exceed 20, especially if kept up on more than one person.
I have a convention with my GMs where I say 'I'm spamming' right before a deliberate skill check (like Diplomacy) or when I know there's a chance to enter combat (about to open a door). It only takes 2 words, is obvious, and wastes hardly any time. PS - I'm expecting some Eidolon builds from you. You keep saying that your build is clearly the best, so I'm waiting for you to prove it. :) I have proven many things, but as you haven't incorporated clearly better advice (like any non-Half-Elf build is horrible), I have doubts as to whether anything I post will be incorporated and am going to wait and see for now.
Bolts/arrows do double the damage and have superior crit ranges. They don't hit NPCs immune to nonmagical damage and you don't want to spend any GP on the magic summoner weapons (it subtracts from Eidolon equipment). You will crit maybe 1-3x in your life as a summoner. Sure, they don't strike touch AC, but the difference isn't too great at such low levels. In my experience touch AC is very significant since Summoners have horrible BAB. Bows will miss a lot more. I can literally think of half a dozen things your summoner can be doing rather than wasting the entire party's time attempting to deal 1-3 acid damage to a single target So can I, but once you do those things on round 3+ (or are at the end of a campaign and want to preserve spells), an unlimited super-accurate damage option is nice.
All of these are occasionally poor options. Daze is HD restricted. Guidance requires touch. Moving into melee range (or Pushing) is dangerous. Arrow/bolts will miss a lot and aren't magic. I'm not saying it is great (I don't have it currently but considered it), just that its rating should be higher.
Hey Saph, Guidance and Resistance are unquestionably the most important cantrips. Both you and your Eidolon cannot have cloaks of Resistance. A failed save vs sleep and your Eidolon disappears etc. Guidance can be applied to anyone in the group and since the part about 1 attack is fine since the bite is more important than all other attacks put together, and your first attack is nearly always a charge (1 attack anyway). Also they only take 6 sec to cast, so you can keep it up on multiple people. Guidance also applies to a resist or skill check too, the highest utility spell we have! There is hardly a single situation ever in any scenario where you wouldn't always want to cast guidance. There are hardly any level 1 spells as good as guidance and resistance. Also, IMO, mage armor is arguably better to have as a wand than a spell.
What makes you think it's not the simple statement that if you already have it you get a different benefit? You 'already have it' if you initially don't have it, then take it. If it was intended the way you are reading it, it would say if you 'have it from the base form' instead of 'if you already have it' (like the slam text, which you should read), So either Slam and Bite make perfect sense and are consistent (the way I read it) or one is definitely inconsistent (the way you read it). Occam's razor (and HeroLab) implies my interpretation until otherwise clarified.
You cannot apply logic to Paizo's summoner - it is a class with 100 unreasonable micro-nerfs. For example, why can't you add an extra pair of legs to a biped (making it a quadruped) and then have it serve as a mount? Don't try to make logical sense of stuff like that, just use the RAW and realize they dropped the ball on the summoner in their rush to get it balanced (which they DID do a good job on, albeit with tons of nonsense). Don't worry about Improved Natural Armor on your summoner since chain or mithral shirts are better. The reason you can't use pounce on a Biped is because it is already significantly stronger than a quadruped and pounce would make it totally overpowered. Pounce balances the slightly weaker base form.
Once the Biped takes the Bite evolution, he 'already has the bite attack'. Then you take Improved Bite, which is makes your existing bite stronger - a totally different effect and satisfies 'unless otherwise noted' since it clearly talks about taking the same thing twice.
Pounce, grab, rake is a really nice combo (dire lion is one of the most popular summons for exactly this reason). Grappling also is a great way to control the encounter. A caster can cast defensively when he's getting pounded, if he's in a grapple hug he has to make a vicious concentration check. The Extra DPS from Biped (mostly from the +attack from the strength hitting more and the 1 extra evo point from no pounce and 2 points from limb-arms) and the trip from bite controls the encounter more than a grapple. With haste, that's 2 trips potentially per round. Also, grapple severely weakens the Eidolon's defenses (which are already weak). The evolution point loss from quadruped and the fact that pounce is only used a max time of once per encounter (often you can't charge in straight line or difficult terrain) definitely don't make up for the extra damage of the Biped. However, the discrepancy lessens at higher levels (when more natural attacks are added to the potential pounce). Quadruped does have faster base speed and allows mount options and a different RP flavor of course. It is almost as much damage (but not quite) so it isn't an unreasonable choice unlike the Serpentine which does far less damage.
Its worse in that you're needing to stop every 10 minutes to bring it back up and sitting around for a 1minute to do so. I never stop every 10 min (I leave the Eidolon out), only before we enter a suspicious area or I think a fight will occur, which is accurate nearly all the time. And I don't know what an ioun stone of atk+1 is, care to enlighten? Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism, Cracked An amulet of mighty fists +1 is better done via greater magic fang leaving the mighty fists to apply to a weapon enhancement. You will be casting haste the first round, and probably bulls strength the second. Mobs almost never last 2 rounds. Wasting an action casting magic fang is a BIG deal. Also it is range of touch and your Eidolon will be far away after your first haste round. Rather than take this feat I'd take craft wondrous items, spend 2k gold to make a belt of strength +2 and have the enhancement bonus to STR at all times. I'm very sorry, now I see where your advice comes from. I only play in Pathfinder Society, which disallows this feat and nullifies your advice. I forgot to mention that up front. Maybe Saph should give 2 sets of advice, one for PFS play and one for other.
Some words of advice for Saph. I will be really excited if you make a good guide with the best advice, the community could use one since this is the most confusing class! Here is some more advice from my experience: I have found that Biped > Quadruped > Serpentine. Strength is all-important (for base form and items) and you gain evolution points from the free limbs-arms which allow the cheapest best evolution points to satisfy your natural attack cap: Claws. Top priorities for evolutions should be Str+2, Improved Bite, Energy Attacks and Trip-Bite. Buffing your bite is more important than all other attacks put together (as mentioned above), so you should always have weapon focus, guidance and natural fang for the bite (if possible). The Eidolon, with his multiple natural attacks, scales VERY well with the Power Attack feat which should always be up (buff the str/attack to compensate). Also at level 7 Cornugon Smash is insanely good. For spells: guidance, resistance, and haste are no-brainers. I'd skip mage armor and rejuvenate eidolon and buy wands for those instead. I like enlarge person to cast on a 2h-wielding fighter or barbarian in the group (higher-die weapons scale way better on this spell). Finally, I like expeditious retreat on the Eidolon so he can move really far on the first charge/move to get the attack (also helps with difficult terrain and allows you to keep him next to you with shield bonus and still be in attack range instead of sending him ahead). I would SKIP getting flight evolution for the Eidolon and use the evolution surge spell to surge it in when needed (many times you won't need it). Also having Evolution Surge as a readied action is amazing since you can instantly apply a Resistance evolution to void spell damage. Finally a pearly white cracked Ioun stone will prevent you having to heal your Eidolon each day (so you can drop Rejuvenate Eidolon spell and use a wand).
cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerfProbably a noob question, but could you please explain/elaborate? Summoners must split their GP between themselves and their Eidolons. The Eidolon is essential to the utility of the summoner. So a Sorcerer's Ring of Protection +1 is equivalent to two of the same Rings (one for the Summoner and one for the Eidolon) at of course twice the cost. Summoners are the weakest defensive class in the game as every level they fall further behind in magic weapons as more magic item usefulness comes from gearing up the Eidolon (who is more scalable) than themselves.
It only gives an enhancement bonus, so if you go for a belt or spell to augment their stats it's worthless. Wake me up when I am infinitely rich and can't spend thousands of GP especially when cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerf. Until then, if a feat replaces a Belt of Str+2, I will buy an Ioun stone of Atk+1 or Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 or Metamagic Reach wand or etc. each of which is better than any feat in the game. Downright horrid for the most important stat in the game (+1 atk) and +1 damage to ALL ATTACKS (unlike weapon focus etc) on the creature that has the most attacks of any PC (Eidolon) and your 10min buff is infinitely recyclable so it is up most of a scenario? Your advice is downright horrid.
1 minute summoning time every 10 minutes, in most environments this is a downright dangerous proposition. Correct. You don't do that. You keep the Eidolon out the whole time and only when you definitely have a moment's break before entering a potentially dangerous area, do you do that. Which happens about 2/3 of scenario fights on average. Still by far making it the best feat since damage is all about +attack.
Half-Elf's already rated 'Good'. I can't honestly rate them on par with Humans, even with their alternate favoured class ability. One evolution point can almost double your DPS (Improved Bite or Energy Attacks) or mean the difference between a horrible attack (tentacle) and one of the best (gore). Or be the difference between walking and flying. etc. Humans are TERRIBLE compared to half-elves. I challenge you to make any Human build that isn't far outmached by my half-elf build once they are level 4+. I'd make Half-Elf cyan (Excellent), Human purple (meh), and all others Red (awful).
I'm really glad you are putting this together and you've done a lot of work but I strongly disagree with a lot of your advice :( Here is what I would change and I hope you are open to constructive criticism: Weaknesses (add this): The Eidolon loses HP when it is >100 feet away and disappears completely when the Summoner is asleep or unconscious. Half-elf is unquestionably the best race since it can have a favored class option of 1/4 evolution point, which means everything to a summoner. Skills - Eidolon should get Disable Device and Knowledge-Planes for extra utility and stealth and acrobatics since it will be in the front line with tanks and scouts. Summoner Feats - Summoner's call (Strength). It is by far the best in the game. Always banish and resummon between fights to keep the buff up. Nothing is mediocre about +1 attack and damage to all attacks. Improved initiative. Going first with haste is VERY important or else the rest of the group will waste attacks. Traits - Reactionary is a must (+2 initiative). Eidolon - Weapon Focus - Bite. Since 75%+ of your attacks will be bites (always for first round move/charge) Metamagic Rod - Reach is much better than Extend to apply buffs to your Eidolon. Combat will almost always be over by the time a duration fades.
Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Guidance, Resistance and having any cannon fodder (doesn't matter if it has 1hp) are all very useful all the way to 20. Also a flanker can die in 1 round and still be of enormous benefit if you get the bonus.
IMO a monk X / summoner 1 multi-class is more effective than a pure monk. You get:
Also works with another familiar/companion class.
Rogue is just going to gimp your party beyond belief, I would make a bardDisagree entirely. I should have clarified that to mean in-combat only. Until you've seen rogues do less damage in an entire campaign than a min/maxxed dpr class can in one round, you are welcome to disagree. In another thread I showed a level 5 that can do almost as much damage as a level 20 (non min/max) rogue who sneak attacks.
This all reminds me of chess where someone plays a 'boring closed position' in order to have a slight advantage to win versus accepting a weaker wild gambit fraught with exciting complications. Some people enjoy being perfectionists and see winning as the ultimate challenge. Why disrespect that? It is a perfectly valid approach as they derive the same satisfaction. Also, the hard-core RPing rogue contributes almost nothing to a group relative to a min/maxer of a superior class, so it is just as easy to see why min/maxers can disdain some RPers as the reverse. I had a rogue stealth up, trigger a surprise round, and due to his RP, intentionally blow an entire round acting cowardly and running to the back of the group. That was hardly fun for me. People shouldn't make RP so extreme it adversely affects the group that much. In real life, no sane person would ever invite someone like that to a group. And if he ran in battle for no reason, he'd lose all of his share of loot never mind destroying his reputation as an adventurer. Why exactly would the Pathfinder society give quests to people who completely suck in efficiency compared to other (min/max) characters? If you want to RP, make it realistic and fit within a normal universe. If you have a hero point buy, be a hero. You don't find people in the Marine Corps training on how to use an arquebus and trying to RP. I don't believe in mixing vast disparities of relative PC power in a party under most circumstances. You can do both (RP and min/max).
A summoner would be challenging but doable (druid is probably best):
Positioning would be VERY important of course so the summoned doesn't get hit (especially with sleep/color spray/etc which poofs the Eidolon). You would want to maximize the amount of full round attacks (maybe a stealthy Eidolon) and have the summoner position in a narrow area where you can 5 foot step back and summon a big blocking monster in front of you. I would get a cloak of resistance for the summoner and at least a 14 con. Would be no problem vs melee npcs. Casters (since they can control the summoner) could be a big problem so you should take them out asap.
I have a hybrid approach for something in-between low-magic dictator control-freak GMs and capitalist walmart high-magic GMs: Think of the Q branch in James Bond. Bond has a small amount of personal resources that he can buy equipment to span campaigns. Also, Q-branch gives him mission-specific items that only work in one campaign (or a series) but must be returned or are used up at the end. Such an approach may work if GMs are concerned about unbalanced parties during their leveling.
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