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To start off, I love the concept of Domains levelling up, rewarding clerics who stick with the class, giving thematic bonuses as they level up. However, while the rule structure is sound, the details I believe are not, as there is very little flavor or variety to be had. Don’t get me wrong, I think the mechanic of getting domain powers unlocked at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level is an excellent mechanic, the specific domain powers strike me as similar to each other, and lack non-combat flavor. As well, their power scales all over the board from the inconsequential to the game-breaker.
All the elemental domains (earth, air, fire, water, and weather) have the same 1st level power – a ranged attack.
There are 8 domains that grant touch attacks, and a further 7 domains that grant touch boost effects to allies for a very limited duration.
These abilities could be so much more innovative, and could be built with concepts that make them backwards compatable to the SRD, but avoid the trap of granting bonus feats (something that Pathfinder is clearly avoiding). So, I took a stab at it …
AIR – 1st Level – Servant of Air (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Acrobatics and Fly checks, and a +2 bonus to your DC of any spells with the air descriptor, or to your Channel Energy effects vs the earth subtype.
ANIMAL – 1st level – good ability as written!
ARTIFICE – 1st level – Artificer’s Touch (Su): You gain +4 to all Craft checks. Furthermore, you can use mending as a spell-like ability at will.
(Note: the Artifice domain as written in Pathfinder is way too powerful, as you can rot doors away, melt treasure chests, burn through castle walls, and the like).
ARTIFICE - 8th Master’s Touch (Su): Any object you wear or wield is considered a masterwork item, granting bonuses to weapons, tools, or armor. In addition, you gain a +10 to all Craft checks.
(Note: Creation is a weak ability for 8th level, and frankly becomes redundant when they get their Fabricate ability at 12th level).
CHAOS – 1st level – Child of Chaos (Su): You cast chaos spells at +1 caster level, and in addition anyone who remains within 10 feet of you cannot take 10 or 20 on skill checks.
CHARM – 1st level – Charming Visage (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Diplomacy checks, and can use daze as a spell-like ability at will.
COMMUNITY – 1st level – Bolstering Presence (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Knowledge (local) checks and are automatically succeed in any attempts to aid another with a permissible skill, or in combat.
DARKNESS – 1st level – Cloak of Darkness (Su): all foes within 30 feet suffering from concealment penalties add a further 5% to their miss chance. Furthermore, you can extinguish any non-magical light source as bright as a torch or lantern within 30 feet as a standard action.
DARKNESS - 8th Shadowsight (Su): You gain darkvision up to 60 feet, or if you already had darkvision, it’s range increases by 60 feet. In addition, you can see inside magical darkness.
(Note: The aura of shadows ability is effectively a weaker, shorter version of obscuring mist, which they received at 2nd level – these poor 8th level clerics deserve something to look forward to).
DEATH – 1st level – Lifeleech Touch (Su): AS a melee touch attack, you can cause a living creature to take 1 point of damage per round. This effect persists for 1 minute per caster level or until stopped with a DC 15 Heal check or any spell or effect that heals damage. Touching a creature affected by this ability causes the duration to reset but does not stack. This is a bleed effect (see the Glossary chapter).
(Note: The Death domain as written is too powerful at low levels, coming in above power of a acid arrow. Effectively there is no cap on this, so touching a creature at 10th level means 10d6 damage will be done, should they not be able to make a Heal check or have access to healing magic. The changes above change the flavor slightly towards death, rather than spontaneous bleeding, and stretch the damage out over a longer period of time).
DEATH - 8th Call Undead (Su): You can animate dead as a touch effect, creating skeletons or zombies whose total Hit Dice does not exceed your caster level. These undead do not count against the total number of undead you can control and remain until destroyed. You cannot use this ability again until 1 hour has passed.
(Note: Creating undead is perfect for the domain, but with the summon effect as written, everyone will be required to effectively use it by pulling giant zombies and troll skeletons out of the air – if you make it use corpses on hand, it won’t be so far-fetched. This would follow the philosophy set forth in the beast shape spells, requiring a piece of the creature you are turning into).
DESTRUCTION – 1st level – Destructive Smite (Su): As a full-round action, you can make a single melee attack against an opponent with a bonus on damage equal to ½ your caster level (minimum 1), and a bonus to hit equal to your Charisma modifier.
(Note: The Destruction domain as written is pretty darn powerful. Confirming a critical automatically on an attack that can be done at will is a little steep. As well, adding the Charisma bonus to hit brings this smite in line with other smite abilities elsewhere in the rules).
EARTH – 1st level – Child of Earth (Su): You add +2 to the DC to resist Trip, Bull Rush, and Overrun maneuvers. Further, you gain a +2 bonus to your DC of any spells with the earth descriptor, or to your Channel Energy effects vs the air subtype.
EVIL – 1st level – Mark of Evil (Su): You cast evil spells at +1 caster level, and in addition anyone you touch becomes treated as good-aligned for the purpose of spells with the evil descriptor, which lasts for 1d3 rounds.
(NOTE: Automatically sickening creatures for 1-3 rounds isn’t unbalancing, but players aren’t going to find it much fun, and they are the most likely target).
FIRE – 1st level – Hand of Fire (Su): You gain +2 to save against fire effects or to your Channel Energy effects vs the water subtype, and you can use produce flame as a spell-like ability at will.
(NOTE: This caps out at a slightly lower damage level than the Pathfinder ability as written, but is simpler rules-wise. As well, it’s a light effect and a burn I would suggest with this replacement ability, Burning Hands at 2nd level should be changed to Endure Elements or the like).
GLORY – 1st level – good as written
GOOD – 1st level – Aura of Good (Su): You cast good spells at +1 caster level, and in addition any allies who remain within 10 feet of you is considered under the effects of a bless spell
(NOTE: I’ve simplified some of the ally boosts so you don’t need to remember if you gave someone the Touch of Good that day, or whether 3 rounds have passed. Running it like a bless effect makes it slightly less powerful than the Pathfinder ability as written).
HEALING – 1st level – Nemesis of Death (Su): You cast healing spells at +1 caster level, and your touch automatically stabilizes dying creatures and ends bleed effects.
KNOWLEDGE – good as written, but you should specify that you gain knowledge from a creature touched, living or dead.
LAW – 1st level – Mark of Law (Su): You cast law spells at +1 caster level, and in addition as a standard action you can touch a creature, giving it the ability to take 10 on a skill check if rushed or threatened, as long as taking 10 is normally allowed.
(NOTE: Again, simplified from the Pathfinder version. This is less likely to be abused for Spell Resistance checks, Attack rolls, saving throws, and the like).
LIBERATION – 1st level – Aura of Freedom (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to save against any enchantment spell or effect, and that bonus is also granted to any ally within 30 feet.
LUCK – 1st level – Lucky (Su): You gain the power of good fortune, which is usable once per day. This extraordinary ability allows you to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.
(NOTE: This is one case where I suggest the SRD rule is a better fit.)
MADNESS – good as written. Perhaps it is worth changing to at will and have no limit to the number of times it affects a target, but at the end of the duration, the target is automatically dazed for a round?
MAGIC – In the interests of backwards compatability, shouldn’t the ability to use scrolls and wands be looked at? It was a bit powerful – perhaps changing it to a bonus to Use Magic Device would solve that issue, but keep all those wand-wielding clerics out there more or less the same …
MAGIC - 1st Acolyte of Magic (Su): You gain a +2 to Use Magic Device and Spellcraft checks, and can use mage hand at will.
NOBILITY – 1st level – Noble Word (Su): You can inspire courage, as the bardic performance ability, using a standard action to grant all allies within hearing a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects, and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. This effect lasts for 3 rounds, and can be used at will.
PLANT – 1st level – Heart of the Forest (Su): You gain Knowledge (nature) as a class skill, and you gain a further +2 bonus to your natural armor class from barkskin spells.
(NOTE: I’m not sure what worshipping a nature deity has to do with beating people up. I think this is a good instance where non-combat effects might be better.)
PROTECTION – Good as written
REPOSE – 1st level – Touch of Rest (Su): You can use gentle repose as a spell-like ability at will. Undead creatures touched by you are slowed for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
(NOTE: I’m not sure what sleep effects have to do with Death. As well, if a Repose cleric wants to run around touching undead, I don’t see a need to have it only affect the undead once per day).
RUNE – 1st level – You gain a +2 bonus to Linquistics and cast any spell from a scroll at +1 caster level.
(NOTE: Again, another example of Pathfinder creating a combat spell for someone who might not need a combat effect. Rune deities don’t necessarily want to blow people up all the time).
RUNE - 8th Rune Scribe (Su): As a standard action, you can create a glyph of warding with no material component, and up to 1 glyph per 2 caster levels can be in existence at any given time.
(NOTE: The major rune is a neat idea, but it could be simplified by simply allowing a glyph of warding as a standard action.)
STRENGTH – good as written, but you might want to specify that the cleric can use this ability on himself as well.
SUN – good as written
TRAVEL – 1st level – Travelling Soul (Su): You gain Survival as a class skill, and gain an extra 5 feet of base movement.
(NOTE: The SRD was a bit off with freedom of movement, but Teleportation is a bit much as a 1st level ability, especially with the ability to bring friends. This defeats trapped doors, walls, and opens up a world of abuse. I recommend toning it down significantly).
TRICKERY – 1st level – Deceptive Visage (Su): You gain Bluff and Stealth as class skills, and once per day you can force a chosen target within 30 feet to reroll one roll that has just been made, even if the roll is declared a success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s better than the original roll.
WAR – 1st level – Soul of War (Su): You gain a bonus to hit wielding your deity’s favored weapon equal to half your caster level (minimum +1).
(NOTE: Battle Smite is pretty much identical to Destruction, and there are a lot of deities with both the War and Destruction domains. Soul of War grants a bonus similar to Weapon Focus of the SRD’s War domain).
WATER – 1st level – Water Child (Su): You gain a +2 to Swim checks and to your DC of any spells with the water descriptor, or to your Channel Energy effects vs the fire subtype. As well, you can hold your breath for an extra number of rounds equal to your caster level.
(NOTE: I’m not sure what the water domain has to do with throwing icicles. What I’ve written above is still pretty wimpy, but it’s more water-oriented).
WEATHER – 1st level – Storm Eye (Su): You gain Survival as a class skill, and as a standard action you can unleash an arc of lightning, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The lightning arc deals 1d6 points of electricity damage +1 for every two caster levels you possess.
(NOTE: This is where I think the Pathfinder Air domain power belongs).
Some of these ideas are very good.
My hope is that the designers aren't yet attached to the existing powers... it is a Beta after all. I should like to see more atmospheric powers in the domains, rather than balancing everything against attack powers.
I'm especially impressed that you've provided clear recommendations, using game rules language and with appropriate designations ("Su," etc.). This is light years ahead of the unfortunate "new domains suck they need be better" comments.
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I'm especially impressed that you've provided clear recommendations, using game rules language and with appropriate designations ("Su," etc.). This is light years ahead of the unfortunate "new domains suck they need be better" comments.
Thank you.
I really hope Jason looks at some of these alternate domain abilities. It's slightly more backwards compatable and more balanced, in my opinion.
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In general, I really like these alternates. Some of the originals - no offense Jason - are a little clunky, esp. the touch attacks and buffs (which typically require touching, then keeping track of who's benefited each day). And I think the cleric (who typically carries a big metal club, and/or decent favored weapon) is less in need of at-will attack powers compared to the Wizard. The cleric, rather, needs flavor, which many of these provide.
I will add that, I'd prefer that the cleric at-wills that add bonuses add UNNAMED bonuses, where possible. I don't have my beta rulebook in front of me, but it seems like there are a lot of 1st-level powers that kinda-sorta replicate low-level buff spells, but don't stack. Which is sorta lame. The bonus doesn't need to be high or anything, but it should do something ... The only example I can think of off the top of my head is the 1st-level War domain power, which provides an enhancement bonus to damage. Bad enough that it's limited to only one strike/day, only with the deity's favored weapon (so my longsword-wielding, Ulfen cleric of Gorum is SOL, as is the rest of the party) but it doesn't stack with magic weapon, which itself becomes pretty much useless after level 6 or so.
That's a power I'd like to see expanded, either making it better for the cleric (ie, an unnamed bonus, useable more frequently with deity's favored weapon) or better for the party (ie, something other than enhancement that affects any weapon).
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I loooked over my list above, and none of the bonuses are typed (and for your very reason). The exception being my Nobility domain rewrite, which duplicates the bardic ability (and thus should not stack with the bard's ability).
I also forgot to post the revised Water domain power at 8th level:
WATER - 8th Water Breathing (Su): You gain ability to breathe underwater, and a swim speed of 30 feet. If you already had a swim speed, it increases by 30 feet.
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Pretty good all in all.
Nobility power at will? Bards only get this a number of times a day and whilst it gets better and they have an additional role as information font isn't this stealing a little of their low level thunder? Ideas good though will need to try to come up with something that feels right.
Soul of War is definately too powerful as written, I'd go with a weapon training idea similar to the fighters would kick in earlier and wouldn't be quite as broad and would be a nice nod back to the free weapon focus.
War 1st level Weapons Training(Ex): A cleric with the war domain gains plus 1 to hit and damage with his dieties favoured weapon this bonus increases every 4 levels to a maximum of plus 5 at level 20.
I'd also drop some of the skill bonii in favour of a differing way of tackling domains and skills as mentioned in the thread "Cleric Domains and Skills"
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Rather than clutter up the boards with another post, I'll just use this thread rom some specific playtest-dervied feedback. In my RotRL game, I have a cleric of Gorum 7/barbarian 3 with the Destruction and War domains. This is a legacy character that began as a 3.5 cleric with those domains, and the player was extremely enthusiastic about the smite ability of the Destruction domain - so much so that she actually took Extra Smiting so she could use it more than once a day.
In the conversion to Pathfinder, the domain changes effected her fairly specifically, because she now has two domain abilities that are almost exactly the same - except that one is noticably better than the other. She still uses her destructive smite, and is willing to accept the loss of the attack bonus in exchange for being able to use it at will, but she has never once used her battle smite, and I can completely understand why. It's hugely more expensive - it takes two actions rather than one, one from her and one from her target - plus it can only be used once a day for any given person, and worst of all, it only works if the person is carrying a greatsword, which most characters don't!
I don't necessarily have any specific suggestions for changing battle smite, save that I think it needs to be scrapped and we need to start completely over.
I like some of the Beta domain powers better than the proposed replacements; in particular, I don't care for "+1 caster level to spells with descriptor [X]".
I'd rather see the 1st level domain powers taking the Animal Domain as an example: at level N, a power should be about as valuable as a level N/4 spell usable at will (or with semi-permanent duration).
So by that benchmark, the Pathfinder Air Domain power fails because 1d6+10 damage is pretty feeble at level 20. As well, the Pathfinder Good Domain fails because (a) it's too good (the closest equivalent spell is Moment of Prescience, which is level 8) and (b) it's limited in number of uses per party per day.
I really like most of these, even the ones you have toned down :)
For example, my current cleric has both the War and Good domains and honestly I'm not looking forward to trying to keep track of who I've granted a bonus for damage (though only two characters in the group use my deities favored weapon) and who has gained a bonus from the Good domain. With your changes to the good domain for example, it makes more sense for those who want a bonus to stick close to my character. Of course my question is if this is an "always on" ability?
Artifice - 1st level ability seems a little... weak? Clerics already get Mending as a orison which can be used at will anyways. I'm just having a really hard time thinking of a better option since I agree that the Beta rules are overpowered....
Good - Overall I like the change and it makes it much easier for bookkeeping, but personally I would like to see the bonus increase over time... perhaps +1 every 5 levels (5,10,15,20)?
Healing - I actually like the Beta benefit better. Like Artifice, clerics already get Stabalize as an orison usable at will. Being able to grant some minor healing to those at "death's door" is more useful IMO.
Knowledge - I REALLY like your idea of including dead creatures. The idea of touching a recently deceased enemy to find out if there is an easier way to dispose of similiar beasts is a cool idea.
Sun - I'm really not fond of the Sun ability. A touch attack against undead that doesn't really improve enough to be effective at high levels. I would rather see something like....
1st level - The cleric is exceptionally good at channelling energy to damage undead. When determining damage for turning undead add +2 points of damage per cleric level.
Travel - while I agree that the Beta version is overpowered at low level, a +5 movement bonus is pretty ho-hum at mid to high levels. Possibly increae it +5 feet per 5 levels? Even at 20th level they still wouldn't come close to matching the speed of the monk, so I don't see it as stepping on anyone's toes.
War - I think even a 1/2 caster level to much, especially if it is unnamed. I think a +1 at first level and an additional +1 at 5,10, 15, and 20 would be adequate for an "always on" ability that would stack with Weapon Focus or spells.
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Some of the domain abilities in the book stink. Particularly Glory, Good, Charm and Madness. I can't see anyone ever wasting an action to use these abilities. And compared to other domain abilities like Repose (free Coup de Grace!), Knowledge, Travel and Darkness no one would want to choose those.
I don't like the 2nd level abilities of nay of them. Yay, you can cast a first level spell a whole bunch of times a day, this loses it's panache pretty quickly.
The Water domain seems to be in actuality an Ice domain. They don't even get Water Breathing.
In general I vastly prefer the old domain system. I'd rather we returned to that.
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To be honest, I would like to see the doman powers at 1st and 8th level stay, and have the domain spells return, at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, etc., like the specialist wizards. They would be spells, not spell-like abilities, and would maintain backwards compatability.
After all, with Pathfinder, Trickery clerics can no longer cast invisibility, Magic clerics can no longer cast identify, and so on.
Domains are what set the 'flavor' of the cleric, and the concept that two domain choices can make two clerics of the same god significantly different is a great thing. Anything we can do to strengthen those themes makes the cleric more enjoyable to play, and offers them options.
Some of the domain abilities in the book stink. Particularly Glory, Good, Charm and Madness. I can't see anyone ever wasting an action to use these abilities.
You can't ever see a level 10 cleric (with the Good domain) using an action to give someone an untyped +10 on a skill check?
Personally, I think the Sun Domain is the worst one (touch attack that only works vs. undead).
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm especially impressed that you've provided clear recommendations, using game rules language and with appropriate designations ("Su," etc.). This is light years ahead of the unfortunate "new domains suck they need be better" comments.
Agreed. Excellent work.
And as an aside, count me in big time with please Please PLEASE make the "Water" domain powers have something to do with, you know, WATER, and not ice or cold.
Ditto for "Earth" domain and acid. Come up with a few SLAs that have to do with earth, rock, sand, and stone.
Yes, I know about the associated elements and energy damage, but we are making something NEW here. The PF domain model is NOT strictly backwards compatible, so we don't need to be bound to what existed before in the domain spell lists from the SRD.
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And as an aside, count me in big time with please Please PLEASE make the "Water" domain powers have something to do with, you know, WATER, and not ice or cold.
Ditto for "Earth" domain and acid. Come up with a few SLAs that have to do with earth, rock, sand, and stone.
Yes, I know about the associated elements and energy damage, but we are making something NEW here. The PF domain model is NOT strictly backwards compatible, so we don't need to be bound to what existed before in the domain spell lists from the SRD.
I feel the same way. All the element powers are simply energy-based range attacks, which isn't backwards compatable to the SRD or strongly themed to air, water, or earth (fire is a no-brainer).
If someone wants to make ranged attacks at will, they can do so by taking a fire cleric, or maybe multiclass into an aberrant sorcerer.
I believe the domains need to aim towards variety, and specifically not touch attacks.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And as an aside, count me in big time with please Please PLEASE make the "Water" domain powers have something to do with, you know, WATER, and not ice or cold.
Ditto for "Earth" domain and acid. Come up with a few SLAs that have to do with earth, rock, sand, and stone.
Yes, I know about the associated elements and energy damage, but we are making something NEW here. The PF domain model is NOT strictly backwards compatible, so we don't need to be bound to what existed before in the domain spell lists from the SRD.
I feel the same way. All the element powers are simply energy-based range attacks, which isn't backwards compatable to the SRD or strongly themed to air, water, or earth (fire is a no-brainer).
If someone wants to make ranged attacks at will, they can do so by taking a fire cleric, or maybe multiclass into an aberrant sorcerer.
I believe the domains need to aim towards variety, and specifically not touch attacks.
Well shoot, even if you DO want to make a ranged touch attack, make it a gust of wind, a jet of water, or a missile of rock!
And as an aside, count me in big time with please Please PLEASE make the "Water" domain powers have something to do with, you know, WATER, and not ice or cold. Ditto for "Earth" domain and acid. Come up with a few SLAs that have to do with earth, rock, sand, and stone. Yes, I know about the associated elements and energy damage, but we are making something NEW here. The PF domain model is NOT strictly backwards compatible, so we don't need to be bound to what existed before in the domain spell lists from the SRD.
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou...
What Jason said. Times a bajillion.
I am not a fan of many of the new domains. When I saw the Holy Warrior option (lose both domains for fighter BAB and cleric HD) in the Campaign Setting, my cleric of Sarenrae jumped at it. Here's my analysis of the domains.
1. It's really the level 1 (a cool special) and 2 (use more than once) powers that are of note. The rest - there is really marginal benefit in getting a spell you can already cast. A couple domains give you something from someone else's spell list and that's cool, but "here, cast a spell you probably already have memorized" - boo. Maybe if you could always spontaneously burn spells to cast them in addition to Cure/Cause Light (I know there's an ability for that, but that's burning a feat to make something suck less).
2. Many of the level 1 specials are not so good. I agree with other posters that there should be some other fixed benefit, like the old domains (e.g. Good: +1 to CL on Good spells) to sweeten the deal.
3. All of the specials that only affect a friendly once per day - those need to be fixed. They make the powers not scale and also shorten your adventuring day. All of them should immediately be changed to "once per X cleric levels."
4. Keep in mind many domains tend to come together in god packages, and so if they have the same/close to the same powers that's lame. Like water and weather both having obscuring mist as their L2; a cleric of Gozreh will be underwhelmed. Or the Glory and Good L1 specials.
Domains
(Star ratings 0-5, 5 is best)
Air (****)
This is actually one of the better ones. A ranged touch for 1d6+1/2CL doesn't ever get old (well, it gets old around level 10, but it scales better than most of these). And many of the spells aren't on the cleric list.
Animal (*****)
This is a good L1 special too. I want a pet!!! And it actually scales with all levels. And spells not on the cleric list.
Artifice (*)
Lame! Mending at will, you mean like with an at-will orison called mending? And the touch attack - is the intent that it bypasses DR, if so, you should probably say that... That would be the only thing that saves this (many of the other melee touch powers on other domains are even worse). And some of the worse spells, no one in their right mind uses Creation or Fabricate. And prismatic sphere - that has what to do with artifice?
Chaos (***)
A pretty good special, and it scales. Indifferent spells as they're all cleric list and if you're a chaos cleric you're likely to memorize them anyway.
Charm (***)
Since there's no save on the special, it is OK but only for "boss fights" where it's your whole party on one dude. And charm person, so that's nice.
Community (***)
A very good special, as conditions are one of the more annoying things to get rid of. All the spells are BLAH however.
Darkness (***)
The special scales well as it's "no save." Decent spells, many from other lists.
Death (****)
A d6/round bleed, now that's nice. And some great spells off other lists (Wail of the Banshee!)
Destruction (*)
Awful special. Crits are autoconfirmed for one round? Bah. And doesn't scale - it's OK till you get multiple attacks and then you should delete this from your character sheet to save space. And spells - oh good, inflict light wounds.
Earth (***)
Same thoughts as Air, with one point of cool docked for the main ability being acid not really earth based.
Evil (**)
Like the concept there with the touch of evil, but since it only lasts a round on evil/neutrals the cleric will never be able to follow it up with an evil descriptor spell, which is most of the point. And all the spells are ones you'd have anyway.
Fire (***)
OK special, OK spells.
Glory (**)
Weak special, and doesn't scale. Bad spells, both because you already have them and because they're a grab bag. Resurrection = glory?
Good (**)
Similarly weak special, though at least it scales. And spells you already have and are even more likely to have memorized.
Healing (**)
Bad special. "Like the at-will orison stabilize, but just a little better." Slightly better than an orison might not be the best target to shoot for here. And lame, predictable spells. I know it's "healing," but is more Cure Lights really something anyone needs?
Knowledge (***)
Having all the knowledge skills as class skills is OK... I think the learn ability should not be a touch attack, just a standard action (probably getting into melee is something a knowledge priest wants to do infrequently, and do you really need to love it up to remember stuff about it?) Spells are OK, though Remote Viewing is nice (mainly because the audio/video separation of clairaud/clairivoy is stupid). Three stars if the lore keeper stops being a touch attack.
Law (**)
The special's OK, but the 1/day limitation makes it not so good. And yay, another "protection from X" power. Yawn.
Liberation (***)
This special is nice until you read one round a day. Then it is not so nice. "Freedom's Call" is great though and just about makes it worth slogging through the rest of the abilities.
Luck (**)
Again, special for one round a day = lame, especially because this isn't even a free reroll. And lucky aura is complicated and lame. Make it a real reroll, and give someone more of them (cleric level /4).
Madness (***)
Bad special but good spells and "Aura of Madness" can make the whole thing worthwhile, as Freedom's Call does for Liberation. But, should a whole domain really hinge on one cool power and the rest be lame? Can do better.
Magic (*)
Magic mouth as a fourth level power? Really? And detect magic at will? If you have it as an at will orison you can already do it at will. Hand of the Acolyte is marginal OK but it can't save this thing.
Nobility (**)
The special is OK, if changed to affect a target CL/4 times a day. The spells seem a little random but OK.
Plant (**)
Special's bad, why would you plan an unarmed cleric? Even multi-ing with monk loses some of the benefit. Gets you some druid spells though. Maybe you should play one instead.
Protection (***)
OK, the transferance of the resistance is kinda neat. Aura of Protection is unlikely to help much as people tend to have resist/deflect bonus equal to level/4 in general. And mage spells.
Repose (*)
Awful special because it's limited to HD <= you, and a touch attack. I guess you can have a hireling following you around cutting the throats of the orc minions you're wasting rounds on putting to sleep.
Rune (****)
Nice battlefield control special. And mage spells.
Strength (**)
Again with the 1/day on the specials. Scale it. And the spells may be too much of a good thing, since they won't stack with each other. "I am strong for varying reasons a lot!!!"
Sun (*)
I hear there's this new thing called channeling that all these specials pale before. And prismatic sphere *again*? Come on!!! Did I mention produce flame is a weak spell? Getting heat metal is the only bright spot. (Get it? bright spot?)
Travel (WARNING)
I think the ability to teleport at level 1 is a problem. I like my dungeon doors. It's so good it's a game breaker. Which is good because the other ones blow. Level 8 - fly one round per level? While the wizard who just casts "fly" at level 5 swoops around you mocking your ancestry?
Trickery (****)
I like copy cat. And you get mage spells. WTF with time stop at level 20 though?
War (**)
Weak L1 special. Weak spells, either poor (magic weapon) or you have them already (magic weapon at L4). weapon master is... OK, though the need to meet the prereqs stings.
Water (***)
Water != cold. I'll give you the icicle as there is at least water in it, but resist energy and cold of cold - no.
Weather (***)
The attack penalty for storm burst is nice. Obscuring mist got used in water too, don't repeat. (It's a lame spell anyway.) The other spells are good.
OK, upon review some of the domains are good. As a cleric of Sarenrae I happened onto a combo of poor ones (all under 3 stars except for Fire). But I think all of them could use some "constant" passive benefit like some of the old domains, and everything above that's 3 stars or below needs some punching up.
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I am not a fan of many of the new domains. When I saw the Holy Warrior option (lose both domains for fighter BAB and cleric HD) in the Campaign Setting, my cleric of Sarenrae jumped at it. Here's my analysis of the domains.
1. It's really the level 1 (a cool special) and 2 (use more than once) powers that are of note. The rest - there is really marginal benefit in getting a spell you can already cast. A couple domains give you something from someone else's spell list and that's cool, but "here, cast a spell you probably already have memorized" - boo. Maybe if you could always spontaneously burn spells to cast them in addition to Cure/Cause Light (I know there's an ability for that, but that's burning a feat to make something suck less).
Agreed!
As well, the 2nd level powers need viewing. If we are attempting to avoid level dipping, or the SRD-based need to multiclass, obviously there should be some incentive to take that 2nd level of cleric.
Receiving the ability, for example, to cast obscuring mist, will get forever relegated to a forgotten corner of the character sheet after mid-levels.
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[PostMonster eated first attempt, apologies if this double-posts]
Some great ideas Archade, and very nicely presented and reasoned!
AIR – 1st Level – Servant of Air (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Acrobatics and Fly checks, and a +2 bonus to your DC of any spells with the air descriptor, or to your Channel Energy effects vs the earth subtype.
So the Air Domain Cleric would be able to Channel Energy vs. the Earth subtype? Would their channeling, under this assumption, also have a healing effect on creatures with the Air subtype?
ANIMAL – 1st level – good ability as written!
Easily my favorite.
ARTIFICE – 1st level – Artificer’s Touch (Su): You gain +4 to all Craft checks. Furthermore, you can use mending as a spell-like ability at will.
(Note: the Artifice domain as written in Pathfinder is way too powerful, as you can rot doors away, melt treasure chests, burn through castle walls, and the like).
Agreed. Also, thematically, Artifice should be about *making,* not breaking. That's what Destruction is for.
Perhaps a Cleric with the Artifice Domain is not penalized for not having the proper tools on hand, thanks to divine inspiration, in addition to the +4 Craft skill bonus?
CHAOS – 1st level – Child of Chaos (Su): You cast chaos spells at +1 caster level, and in addition anyone who remains within 10 feet of you cannot take 10 or 20 on skill checks.
While neat, can this be turned off, if the Chaos Cleric doesn't want to penalize his allies?
COMMUNITY – 1st level – Bolstering Presence (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Knowledge (local) checks and are automatically succeed in any attempts to aid another with a permissible skill, or in combat.
Sweet.
DARKNESS – 1st level – Cloak of Darkness (Su): all foes within 30 feet suffering from concealment penalties add a further 5% to their miss chance. Furthermore, you can extinguish any non-magical light source as bright as a torch or lantern within 30 feet as a standard action.
Any *single* non-magical light source, or all of them within 30 ft? All of them seems like it might be more useful than having to spend multiple actions snuffing torches one by one. Allowing the Darkness Cleric to snuff any or all, optionally, might also be nice, allowing him to snuff an enemies lantern, but not his own.
DEATH – 1st level – Lifeleech Touch (Su): AS a melee touch attack, you can cause a living creature to take 1 point of damage per round. This effect persists for 1 minute per caster level or until stopped with a DC 15 Heal check or any spell or effect that heals damage. Touching a creature affected by this ability causes the duration to reset but does not stack. This is a bleed effect (see the Glossary chapter).
(Note: The Death domain as written is too powerful at low levels, coming in above power of a acid arrow. Effectively there is no cap on this, so touching a creature at 10th level means 10d6 damage will be done, should they not be able to make a Heal check or have access to healing magic. The changes above change the flavor slightly towards death, rather than spontaneous bleeding, and stretch the damage out over a longer period of time).
This is one of the few that I disagree with you on. 1 pt of bleed damage / round as a touch attack is far too weak, IMO.
I hate touch attacks. I think I'd rather have a ray of negative energy (which could be invisible, just a chill in the air and suddenly the target takes the appropriate damage as part of their life-force is snuffed out). Alternatively, a damaging touch that heals the caster, like a weaker version of Vampiric Touch, might be thematic. If it's a touch attack, it should definitely be sexier than a ranged attack, and a small amount of healing would be cool there.
Making it whatever it is negative energy damage would also allow the Death Cleric to heal undead.
DESTRUCTION – 1st level – Destructive Smite (Su): As a full-round action, you can make a single melee attack against an opponent with a bonus on damage equal to ½ your caster level (minimum 1), and a bonus to hit equal to your Charisma modifier.
(Note: The Destruction domain as written is pretty darn powerful. Confirming a critical automatically on an attack that can be done at will is a little steep. As well, adding the Charisma bonus to hit brings this smite in line with other smite abilities elsewhere in the rules).
And since it's a full-round action, the bonus to hit isn't out of whack. Cool.
EARTH – 1st level – Child of Earth (Su): You add +2 to the DC to resist Trip, Bull Rush, and Overrun maneuvers. Further, you gain a +2 bonus to your DC of any spells with the earth descriptor, or to your Channel Energy effects vs the air subtype.
Same questions about the Channel Energy vs. Air subtype (can also haz heal against Earth subtype?).
I'm not in love with the DC modifiers, since there are so few Earth, Water and Air spells that have any meaningful use of that mechanic (plenty of Fire spells, 'though!) making this not an ideal 'one-size-all' Elemental Domain mechanic.
I think, given the nature of the four elements, I'd retain some sort of elemental blast as a 1st level power, but, instead of Acid or Lightning, I'd make it an actual 'Magic Stone' type magically-propelled rock or single-target 'Gust of Wind.' The Earth missile might just do Bludgeoning damage of X damage, while the Air blast might only act as a Close range Trip attack or Bull Rush with a CMB modified by the Clerics Wisdom modifier. A Water blast might combine the two, doing nonlethal damage, plus a weaker Trip / Bull Rush effect (with the water dissapearing into vapor one round after creation, to prevent the 'I use my at will water jet to fill the pool' trick).
EVIL – 1st level – Mark of Evil (Su): You cast evil spells at +1 caster level, and in addition anyone you touch becomes treated as good-aligned for the purpose of spells with the evil descriptor, which lasts for 1d3 rounds.
(NOTE: Automatically sickening creatures for 1-3 rounds isn’t unbalancing, but players aren’t going to find it much fun, and they are the most likely target).
I don't care for this one, or the original. I'm stumped as for what could make a neat 'Evil' Domain power, 'though.
FIRE – 1st level – Hand of Fire (Su): You gain +2 to save against fire effects or to your Channel Energy effects vs the water subtype, and you can use produce flame as a spell-like ability at will.
(NOTE: This caps out at a slightly lower damage level than the Pathfinder ability as written, but is simpler rules-wise. As well, it’s a light effect and a burn I would suggest with this replacement ability, Burning Hands at 2nd level should be changed to Endure Elements or the like).
Cool. I love Produce Flame. :)
GOOD – 1st level – Aura of Good (Su): You cast good spells at +1 caster level, and in addition any allies who remain within 10 feet of you is considered under the effects of a bless spell
(NOTE: I’ve simplified some of the ally boosts so you don’t need to remember if you gave someone the Touch of Good that day, or whether 3 rounds have passed. Running it like a bless effect makes it slightly less powerful than the Pathfinder ability as written).
The Pathfinder Good Domain power is potentially annoying. Every day, *every* member of your party can get +X (X = Cleric level) to one skill roll. I'm not sure I like that. It throws DC scaling for skill uses off, in published adventures, since every party member is going to be able to be boosted well past their expected level cap once per day, and, quite often, a skill roll might represent a days worth of Gathering Information or Crafting or research, even if it is only made in one discrete round at the end of the day.
If it can be applied to Craft or Profession checks, a single 8th level Dwarven Cleric can add +8 to the rolls of every Dwarf in his town by wandering around 'blessing' people. Eh. Seems like a world-changer, or, more likely, a rules-argument waiting to happen.
HEALING – 1st level – Nemesis of Death (Su): You cast healing spells at +1 caster level, and your touch automatically stabilizes dying creatures and ends bleed effects.
KNOWLEDGE – good as written, but you should specify that you gain knowledge from a creature touched, living or dead.
Both cool.
LAW – 1st level – Mark of Law (Su): You cast law spells at +1 caster level, and in addition as a standard action you can touch a creature, giving it the ability to take 10 on a skill check if rushed or threatened, as long as taking 10 is normally allowed.
(NOTE: Again, simplified from the Pathfinder version. This is less likely to be abused for Spell Resistance checks, Attack rolls, saving throws, and the like).
If the recipient is rushed or threatened, the Cleric might be unlikely to be able to stand behind him with a hand on his back during the important roll. This seems *extremely* rarely useful, to me.
Perhaps the Cleric of Law can help another by giving them a +2 to Take 10 rolls as a standard action, or a +5 to Take 20 rolls (taking as long as it takes), providing guidance?
MADNESS – good as written. Perhaps it is worth changing to at will and have no limit to the number of times it affects a target, but at the end of the duration, the target is automatically dazed for a round?
I really don't like this power. Would Lesser Confusion at will be overpowered? (1 round duration, not a guarantee of a useless action, and the mob could still save anyway, so it's not a guarantee of even taking a single foe out of the fight.)
MAGIC – In the interests of backwards compatability, shouldn’t the ability to use scrolls and wands be looked at? It was a bit powerful – perhaps changing it to a bonus to Use Magic Device would solve that issue, but keep all those wand-wielding clerics out there more or less the same …
MAGIC - 1st Acolyte of Magic (Su): You gain a +2 to Use Magic Device and Spellcraft checks, and can use mage hand at will.
Making Use Magic Device a class skill would be an option (although the Clerics dearth of skill points makes that a problematic choice as well), as well as giving the Magic Cleric a specific +1 per Cleric level to UMD checks to emulate being a Wizard or Sorcerer, specifically, rather than a bonus to *all* UMD checks. (So he's gonna have no bonus to pretending to be a Druid to read that scroll of Goodberry, or whatever.)
NOBILITY – 1st level – Noble Word (Su): You can inspire courage, as the bardic performance ability, using a standard action to grant all allies within hearing a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects, and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. This effect lasts for 3 rounds, and can be used at will.
I like this one.
PLANT – 1st level – Heart of the Forest (Su): You gain Knowledge (nature) as a class skill, and you gain a further +2 bonus to your natural armor class from barkskin spells.
(NOTE: I’m not sure what worshipping a nature deity has to do with beating people up. I think this is a good instance where non-combat effects might be better.)
For a spellcaster, a plus to AC is going to be useful against all foes, while an extra attack is only going to be useful when out of spells. On the other hand, limiting it to only work when Barkskin is being cast is a bit of a railroad, IMO.
Would a straight +1 natural armor bonus to AC be out of line, with an additional +1 from any Barkskin spell as well?
Alternately, or perhaps in addition, the Plant Cleric might be more effective with wooden weapons, getting a bonus to hit and / or damage when using wooden Clubs and Staves. If the equipment list included some light and medium wood-based armor options (mostly for Druids), the Plant Cleric who gets a bonus to hit and / or damage with wooden weapons might also be able to eke out a +1 armor bonus when wearing wooden armor or using a wooden shield, rounding out the theme.
WAR – 1st level – Soul of War (Su): You gain a bonus to hit wielding your deity’s favored weapon equal to half your caster level (minimum +1).
(NOTE: Battle Smite is pretty much identical to Destruction, and there are a lot of deities with both the War and Destruction domains. Soul of War grants a bonus similar to Weapon Focus of the SRD’s War domain).
This seems way too good. Since it can't be combined with the Holy Warrior Alternate Class Feature anyway, perhaps it should work similarly and just allow the War Cleric to use Full BAB with his dieties chosen weapon?
WEATHER – 1st level – Storm Eye (Su): You gain Survival as a class skill, and as a standard action you can unleash an arc of lightning, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The lightning arc deals 1d6 points of electricity damage +1 for every two caster levels you possess.
(NOTE: This is where I think the Pathfinder Air domain power belongs).
Agreed. I've never been enamored of the whole 'air = electricity' and 'earth = acid' ideas. Gust of Wind is Air. Magic Stone is Earth.
If I were going to clumsily force an association between an energy type with Air, it would have been Sonic, not Lightning...
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One thing I would like to do is avoid giving +1 caster level to the healing domain. Basically that only translates into +1 hitpoint to your healing spells (except when casting Heal). Once you hit the cap (+5 for cure light wounds, +10 for Cure Moderate) this benefits actually stops functioning for the most part. I would much prefer something like +2 hitpoints per level of the healing spell being cast above and beyond those normally heal by the spell.
Well, I added that for backwards compatability, and it is, as you say, a minor effect.
I'd keep the +1 CL for the various domains, but as a side benefit, and give each domain something the equivalent of half-a-feat, or the equivalent of a low-range 1st level spell at will.
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Some great ideas Archade, and very nicely presented and reasoned!
(A lot of cool analysis)
Great review!
I'm going to take everyone's commentary, and post a Mark II domain power list tonight. People are absolutely right that the +1 CL is wimpy, Soul of War is way too powerful, etc.
Coolness.
For Healing, I'd be partial to +1 / die of healing. So Cure Light Wounds would get +1 (same as the +1 for core, but it would still be more useful, since it would allow up to 1d8+6), while Cure Moderate Wounds would get +2, etc. Perhaps it would even apply to Healing that comes from Channel Energy, and not just Cure spells!
Another option would be to re-roll 1s or 2s on healing dice, again, from both spells and Channel Energy healing, although I'm more partial to the first idea, since it's always useful, not just useful when you happen to roll badly.
Some sort of bonus to the Heal skill would also make sense (since it would already be a Class skill for the Cleric, barring some alternate class feature strangeness).
As for Soul of War, your version is a bit too much. My suggested tweak (full BAB with dieties favored weapon) seems perhaps a little too weak. Perhaps a +1 to damage as well, with an additional +1 / 6 levels or something (max +4 at 18th Cleric level)? Would some skill go well with war, is there a Knowledge (tactics?).
I'm just going to be the linguistic stickler for a second and note that in English, "Artifice" does not mean what you would think it means when deriving it from "Artificer."
Both terms find their root in archaic French, but artifice connotes deception and generally refers to an action, whereas an artificer makes artifacts.
Since they do have common root, it is probably forgivable to invent a new meaning of the word artifice as derived from artificer. I just wanted to be the jerk who brought it up.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm just going to be the linguistic stickler for a second and note that in English, "Artifice" does not mean what you would think it means when deriving it from "Artificer."
Both terms find their root in archaic French, but artifice connotes deception and generally refers to an action, whereas an artificer makes artifacts.
Since they do have common root, it is probably forgivable to invent a new meaning of the word artifice as derived from artificer. I just wanted to be the jerk who brought it up.
Jerk! Jerk-ules! Jerky McJerk-Jerk!
I just wanted to be the first one to call you on it! :)
Rune Domain -- 1st level -- All spells you cast from a scroll use your divine caster level if it is higher than the caster level of the scroll.
Just my humble suggestion. I really like the rest of what you have here.
I'm just going to be the linguistic stickler for a second and note that in English, "Artifice" does not mean what you would think it means when deriving it from "Artificer."
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (via Dictionary.com):
Artifice
"Ar"ti*fice\, n. [L. artificium, fr. artifex artificer; ars, artis, art + facere to make: cf. F. artifice.]
1. A handicraft; a trade; art of making. [Obs.]
2. Workmanship; a skillfully contrived work.
The material universe.. in the artifice of God, the artifice of the best Mechanist. --Cudworth.
3. Artful or skillful contrivance.
His [Congreve's] plots were constructed without much artifice. --Craik.
4. Crafty device; an artful, ingenious, or elaborate trick.
Note: [Now the usual meaning.]
Those who were conscious of guilt employed numerous artifices for the purpose of averting inquiry. --Macaulay."
...two out of four ain't bad. :-)
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As for Soul of War, your version is a bit too much. My suggested tweak (full BAB with dieties favored weapon) seems perhaps a little too weak. Perhaps a +1 to damage as well, with an additional +1 / 6 levels or something (max +4 at 18th Cleric level)? Would some skill go well with war, is there a Knowledge (tactics?).
How about allowing clerics to take the Weapon Focus feat tree for their deity's favored weapon as a fighter of equal level? This would need to be combined with one or more of the other suggestions, as it would be too weak on its own. But it would seem to fit a cleric specializing in war.
I love the ideas presented for all of the domains, though. Good stuff!
I'm just going to be the linguistic stickler for a second and note that in English, "Artifice" does not mean what you would think it means when deriving it from "Artificer."From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (via Dictionary.com):
Artifice
"Ar"ti*fice\, n. [L. artificium, fr. artifex artificer; ars, artis, art + facere to make: cf. F. artifice.]
1. A handicraft; a trade; art of making. [Obs.]
2. Workmanship; a skillfully contrived work.
The material universe.. in the artifice of God, the artifice of the best Mechanist. --Cudworth.
3. Artful or skillful contrivance.
His [Congreve's] plots were constructed without much artifice. --Craik.
4. Crafty device; an artful, ingenious, or elaborate trick.
Note: [Now the usual meaning.]
Those who were conscious of guilt employed numerous artifices for the purpose of averting inquiry. --Macaulay."
...two out of four ain't bad. :-)
You lie! (Or maybe you're just being skillful. I get confused.)
As for Soul of War, your version is a bit too much. My suggested tweak (full BAB with dieties favored weapon) seems perhaps a little too weak. Perhaps a +1 to damage as well, with an additional +1 / 6 levels or something (max +4 at 18th Cleric level)? Would some skill go well with war, is there a Knowledge (tactics?).
I like this idea but would probably make it a +1 damage plus +1 every 4 additional levels (5,9,13,17) for a total of +5. I don't have a great reason other than going by the BAB charts, the increase in BAB with the favored weapon would be equivalen to the weapon being a +1 weapon at 1st level, +2 at 5th, +3 at 9th, etc. These levels also coincide with the cleric's substantial increase in power from their deity (every 2 spell levels) while falling on levels that don't represent an increase in their domain powers.
On a similar note, I would like to see the 8th level War ability changed to ignore prerequisites. Considering you are limited to rounds/cleric level I don't see then need to require the cleric have the prerequisites.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Rune Domain -- 1st level -- All spells you cast from a scroll use your divine caster level if it is higher than the caster level of the scroll.
Just my humble suggestion. I really like the rest of what you have here.
It's a nice ability, but it completely throws off the cost economy of scrolls. You write them all at 1st level (or minimum level if you must), but you get to use them at higher level. If I'm 20th level, that means that I'm getting my scroll spells at 1/20th the normal cost (or some other significant fractional discount for higher-level spells).
I might be okay with using your prime stat for save DCs instead of the default base save (like you can do with a staff).
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I like this idea but would probably make it a +1 damage plus +1 every 4 additional levels (5,9,13,17) for a total of +5.
I'd considered +1 damage with Favored Weapon plus another +1 / 5 levels (+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th and +5 at 20th). That might be cooler, as 10th and 20th tend to be 'slow' levels. I just wasn't sure if that would be over the top combined with the full BAB for Favored Weapon option.
It would certainly be one of the sexier Domain powers, for those whose diety has a cool Favored Weapon (and most of the War dieties have decent ones, like the Longsword or Greataxe).
Director of Games
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Interesting discussion here everyone. I just wanted to note that I prefer domain powers that have an active component to them, over those that are passive effects. In other words, a domain power that lets you take a useful action in combat (shoot a ray of fire for example) is far superior to a power that is a simple, always on effect (increasing concealment percentages). I am not saying that the later will not appear at all in the book, but for 1st level powers, I would prefer to add something to the game that extends the play options of a cleric.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I just wanted to note that I prefer domain powers that have an active component to them, over those that are passive effects. In other words, a domain power that lets you take a useful action in combat (shoot a ray of fire for example) is far superior to a power that is a simple, always on effect (increasing concealment percentages).
Cool, I think I would prefer for the Elemental domains in particular to have the ability to generate bursts or ranged attacks of Air, Earth, Fire or Water. Perhaps even Plant could have some sort of ranged thorny vine attack or single target entangle or giant spear-like splinters of wood attack or whatever.
(Blasts of Acid, Cold or Electricity could remain for to-be-later-introduced Domains like Corruption/Decay/Ooze, Cold/Frost/Winter or Storms/Weather.)
I definitely wouldn't want *all* of the Domains to work like this, however, as every Cleric is going to have two, and two Domains whose 1st level power does the same thing seems a little bit of a downer.
Touch attacks, IMO, should be slightly better, to make up for their more limited utility (such as a Death touch attack that does negative energy damage and gives a fraction of it back to the Cleric as healing).
Serves me right for saying it. In my defense, it does say "obscure."
I need a bigger dictionary.
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My recommendations for first level abilities(Some of these are elsewhere on the thread, I just liked them and decided to use them ;) )
Air - Gentle Breeze: Does no damage or anything, but can be used to put out open flames and disperse (or possibly direct with an opposed spellcraft check) gaseous spells like gaseous form and cloudkill and obscuring mist, fine/diminutive flying swarms, or push a small boat that has a sail (like a gig).
Animal Domain - Give them the Wild Empathy ability
Artifice - Fine as is
Chaos domain - Once per day per two caster levels add 1d4 to your caster level for a single spell you cast
Charm domain - Attraction, like the psionic power, but as a Spell Like ability and with a shorter duration (30 minutes or so)
Community domain - Fine as is
Darkness domain - fine as is
Death domain - fine as is
Destruction domain - fine as is
Earth domain - Earth-stomp. Standard action stomp the earth, all creatures within 5ft/two caster levels must make a Reflex save or fall prone.
Fire domain - fine as is
Glory domain - Something other than what it has, but I'm honestly at a loss for what it should be.
Good domain - Something other than what it has, but I'm honestly at a loss for what it should be.
Healing domain - Fine, but make it 1d8 not 1d4
Knowledge domain - This one I really like
Law - Something other than what it has, but I'm honestly at a loss for what it should be.
Liberation domain - Cry of resistance: As a standard action you can make a will save to break a compulsion affect on an ally.
Luck domain - I like this as it is, but get rid of the 1 day aspect.
Madness domain - Something other than what it has, but I'm honestly at a loss for what it should be.
Magic Domain - Prestidigitation, Read Magic and Detect Magic at will.
Nobility Domain - Something other than what it has, but I'm honestly at a loss for what it should be.
Plant Domain - Tanglefoot bag attack at will.
Protection domain - Good as it is
Repose Domain - I like it, but might be too powerful, it allows an allow to coup de grace the enemy. There's a reason Sleep and Deep Slumber have such low HD limits.
Rune Domain = This is nifty, but make it last permanently but you can only have one in existence at a time.
Strength domain - Get rid of the 1 day rule.
Sun domain - I like it, though I know there are other complaints about it.
Travel domain - Make it a standard action maybe? Definitely make a line-of-sight requirement.
Trickery - Neat, I like it.
War Domain - This is terrible, I'd rather see a "Battle Cry", as a standard action you give an inspiring cry, that gives all allies within 30 feet a +1 (+1 more every 5 caster levels) divine bonus to attacks and damage for 1 round. I say divine so as not to steal the bard's thunder.
Water Domain - You can bless a container of water you are holding in a more powerful way than most clerics. As a standard action you bless the container, it does 1d6 +1 per 2 caster levels as a splash weapon. The effect lasts on the container for 3 rounds.
Weather domain - Fine as is just make it regular electricity damage.
The one thing that baffles me is that overall I think domain powers are significantly better than the former domain spells. If the cleric were a weak class I could see giving it a boost but the cleric is already one of the toughest classes in the game.
I'm not going to go through them all but I wanted to comment on a few of them. One thing I noticed is that there is not much consistency in the usefulness of the domain powers. The first level animal domain power is quite useful and powerful for nearly the entire 20 level progression. The other powers such as the air domain's lightning arc are useful for lower levels but once the cleric is high enough level to keep casting all day long is nearly worthless. I think there should be some consistency with the effectiveness of domain powers.
I tend to think that the domain powers that do 1d6+x damage are out of character for the cleric.
The domain powers I'm concerned with most are:
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Animal Domain: This introduces many of the problems the druid class has with the animal companion to the cleric class along with a few others. A simpler, more consistent way to do this would be to just give the cleric the Animal Companion Class Feature.
If you want to keep the SNA X format then please give the effect a duration. For example:
Summon Companion (Su): As a standard action, you can summon one animal to aid you as per summon nature’s ally I. You can summon the creature a number of times per day equal to your caster level. Summoned creatures remain for 1 minute or until they are dismissed or die. Once the creature dies or is dismissed, you must wait 10 minutes before summoning another. At 6th level, and every four levels thereafter, you may summon a more powerful companion, increasing the summon nature’s ally spell by 1 (II at 6th level, III at 10th, IV
at 14th, and V at 18th).
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Travel: There are two things that concern me about the travel domain. The biggest being dimension door type travel is not typically available in 1st level dungeons. The second concern to me is the fact that it's a swift action. This is overall a very powerful ability that scales extremely well. I can't see ever selecting the air or similar 1d6+1/2 level ranged touch attack powers when this domain power is so much more useful, particularly at low levels.
I like the suggestion of increasing the clerics movement instead.
Overall these two domain powers just stand out as so much more useful than the rest.
I will post a more detailed response to the Domain Powers later,
but I just wanted to comment on the Touch of Luck/Good/etc powers in general.
For the most part, the 3.5 versions were MORE powerful, because they applied to ALL d20 rolls for the duration, not just one.
Let's compare Luck to Chaos, since they seem they're supposed to be the inverse of each other:
In other words, the Touch of Chaos is saying that the effected opponent suffers the "worst of 2 rolls" for 3 rounds, or until it causes him to fail a roll. The ALLY or CLERIC himself who benefits from Touch of Luck, may re-roll any ONE roll within 3 rounds, but then loses any further effect, WHETHER OR NOT THE RE-ROLL BENEFITTED THEM.
The Domains which grant beneficial effects to the Cleric/Allies (Luck, Good, Law, Strength, Battle, Glory) should function in the same manner as the ones detrimental to enemies (using a re-roll, even if it doesn't help you, shouldn't end the effect before 3 rounds). It also should state that if the character doesnsn't choose to USE the re-roll/ other benefit (or doesn't actually pass a roll because of it) before the 3 rounds, their daily allotment of the Touch effect should NOT be expired. I think these powers either need to be improved in this way, or returned to how they work in 3.5.
That all these are a STANDARD action to activate gives them a major economy-of-action penalty - For giving up a Standard Action, you gain a questionable benefit, AND have to use it within 3 rounds. Obviously, the Good power gets better as you level up, but Luck doesn't really.
Having these actions as standard actions, while Travel's is a Swift Action is really just a slap in the face.
The Madness, Nobility ,Protection & Repose effects seem reasonable (though Madness/Repose seem like they should require a scaling DC Save)
I agree that the Sun power should probably be altered completely:
Having a TOUCH effect as the SUN Power doesn't seem to make much sense anyways, shouldn't it be a radiant effect?
(I'd rather have it enahnce their Channel Energy to Dazzle/Blind Evil opponents (or Good for Evil Clerics))
Interesting discussion here everyone. I just wanted to note that I prefer domain powers that have an active component to them, over those that are passive effects. In other words, a domain power that lets you take a useful action in combat (shoot a ray of fire for example) is far superior to a power that is a simple, always on effect (increasing concealment percentages). I am not saying that the later will not appear at all in the book, but for 1st level powers, I would prefer to add something to the game that extends the play options of a cleric.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
In general I agree, as long as the ability is an active power that is useful at all levels. That's the kicker.
A +1 to CL is useful at any level. So in many cases it's "easy" to make a passive power that scales.
A ranged touch of 1d6+1 per 2 levels is useful through about level 10, and then usually you have more optimal choices to use every round of your life.
Few of the powers are of awful scalability, but just to complete the scale, a "1d8 damage" or something with a "DC 12 save" doesn't scale and is useful only for 1-2 levels.
The Animal domain power is very well crafted as it scales proportionately at all levels. Or no-save powers that cost someone an action are equally good. But there's also a bunch that don't scale, in which case their being-active is good but their not-scaling is a negative factor which overwhelms them. I'd rather have passive and scale than active and not scale; of course active and scale is the optimal.
I tend to find that clerics have plenty to do at low levels with PF where it is now. I can heal everyone within 30 ft. attack, manuever, or cast a spell, or any other standard action someone else can do. At lower levels the difference between a touch attack and a standard attack is not as great as it is at higher levels (armor, natural armor, and the like aren't having as great an effect at lower levels, and a party may be better served finding ways to get mage armor for everyone). When I look for domain powers (as a player) I try to find something that is either going to last for a while or is passive. Two of my favorite domains in PF right now are nobility and protection. Nobility's domain power offers a decent buff with scaling duration that can stack well with most other buffs and protection knocks out any need I have for a save enhancing item, while offering me another buff for my allies (if I want to forgo my protection) and some useful spell abilities.
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So,
I’ve looked over the comments here, along with Jason’s recommendation that all effects should be an active, not passive effect if at all possible, and I’ve retooled my suggestions.
One of the things I really want to see fixed is the power inequity of the domains as written in Pathfinder (although I still love the ruleset structure in general!) to be the power scale equivalent a half-a-feat or a weaker 1st-level spell at will, and that if the domain granted an action-based effect, that it was worth spending an action, compared to attacking or casting a spell available at that level.
Something else one of my players who plays a cleric and is now 8th level pointed out, clerics are covered in the touch spell effects or targeted spell effects, and he feels that the cleric should either have utility effects, or area effect or aura effects to round out their options for play.
In another thread, it talked about clerics lacking capstone abilities, with their 20th level power simply giving them another spell per day that they could already use at 17th. I’ve tried to address that with a third supernatural ability where I could.
I'll post the ones I've finished so far ..
AIR
1st Servant of Air (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Acrobatics and Fly checks, and you may create a gust of wind that allows you to make ranged bull rush attempts up to 30 feet away using your caster level plus your Charisma bonus instead of your CMB.
8th Air Walker (Su): You can walk on air as if it were solid for a number of rounds per day equal to twice your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This ability otherwise functions as air walk.
20th Sky Herald (Su): You gain the ability to fly at half your base speed at will, and you are breathless, no longer needing to breathe.
ARTIFICE
1st Artificer’s Touch (Su): You gain +4 to all Craft checks. Furthermore, you can use mending as a spell-like ability at will.
(NOTE – I agree this ability is weak, but I can’t think of anything better).
8th Master’s Touch (Su): Any object you wear or wield is considered a masterwork item, granting bonuses to weapons, tools, or armor. In addition, you gain a +10 to all Craft checks.
20th Creator of Wonders (Su): You can make nonmagical objects with the Craft skill at ten times the rate of others. As well, you can make magic items or constructs without the need of any item creation feats or specific spell prerequisites, although you must still supply the expensive materials.
CHARM
1st Charming Visage (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to all Diplomacy checks, and can use daze as a spell-like ability at will.
8th – Charming Touch (Su): You can use charm monster as a melee touch attack. You can only have one creature charmed in this way at a time. This ability otherwise functions as charm monster.
(NOTE – Charm Monster is available to characters at 5th level, and lasts 1 day/level. Having it last 1 round per level is weak).
20th – Charming Soul (Su): You automatically succeed on any Diplomacy checks.
DARKNESS
1st Cloak of Darkness (Su): You gain a +2 bonus to Stealth checks, and you can extinguish all non-magical light sources as bright as a torch or lantern within 30 feet as a standard action, or make a caster level check to extinguish any one magical light source, as a targeted dispel magic effect.
8th Shadowseer (Su): You gain darkvision up to 60 feet, or if you already had darkvision, it’s range increases by 60 feet. You can use a standard action to cause shadows to attack any one target within an area of shadowy illumination, and have them suffer 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per 2 caster levels (Will save for half).
20th – Dark Herald (Su): You gain the ability to see in any magical darkness, and the ability to shadow walk at will.
EARTH
1st Child of Earth (Su): You add +2 to the DC to resist Trip, Bull Rush, and Overrun maneuvers. Further, you may use a standard action to cause all terrain within 30 feet of you to be considered rough ground for 1 round per caster level
8th Body of Stone (Su): You gain damage reduction 1/adamantine. This increases by 1 per 5 caster levels, to a maximum of DR 5/adamantine at 20th level. You can transfer this ability to a target by touch 1/day, for a duration of 1 round per caster level.
20th Stonewalker (Su): You gain the ability to burrow at a speed equal to your base speed, and you gain the tremorsense ability.
DEATH
1st - Lifeleech Touch (Su): As a melee touch attack, you can cause a living creature to take 1d4 points of damage per round. This effect persists for 1 round per caster level or until stopped with a DC 15 Heal check or any spell or effect that heals damage. Touching a creature affected by this ability causes the duration to reset but does not stack. This is a bleed effect (see the Glossary chapter).
8th - Call Undead (Su): You can animate dead as a touch effect, creating skeletons or zombies whose total Hit Dice does not exceed your caster level. These undead do not count against the total number of undead you can control and remain until destroyed. You cannot use this ability again until 1 hour has passed.
20th – Touch of the Reaper (Su): You may make a melee touch attack against any target, and if they fail a Fortitude save, they suffer a negative level.
FIRE
1st Hand of Fire (Su): You gain +2 to save against fire effects and you can use produce flame as a spell-like ability at will.
8th Wreath of Flames (Su): Any weapon you wield gains the flaming weapon property. If it already had the flaming weapon property, it gains the flaming burst property.
20th Firewalker (Su): You gain resistance to fire 20 and the ability to transfer yourself from one fire you enter to another fire up to 100 feet away per caster level. This ability otherwise functions as tree stride.
Really not a big fan of the 1d6+X cleric abilities and in particular the elemental ones.
Air Domain: You can use feather fall as a SLA once per day and one additional time per day for every 4 cleric levels you possess.
Earth Domain: You gain a divine bonus to your CMB equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1) as long as you remain in contact with the ground.
Water Domain: You gain a swim speed of 15' and can take 10 on any swim checks. Your swim speed increases by 5' for every 3 levels in the cleric class.
Fire Domain: -- not sure about this yet
Maybe feather fall doesn't qualify as an 'active' ability though... I just don't care for the generic SLAs that step on the wizards toes.