It is apparent that many people seem to feel the ninja is over powered, and I can see the argument, I feel to much of the discussion is just get rid of it and not bother. To some that is a viable option, to others that just doesn't work. People want to be able to say i'm a level 10 ninja, not I'm a level 10 ninja rogue.
Lets discuss ways to make the ninja viable without just getting rid of it, possible putting an action on usage of ki powers, removing the extra attack for 1 ki point. What about removing light armor proficiency. without any armor would you go running at someone even if you had mirror image up. Also, The tricks that are free once then cost ki, just need to cost ki.
Mostly It needs to be made that a Ninja is a gimped rogue without his ki, So put up some suggestions to keep the Ninja that tweak it.
Lets discuss ways to make the ninja viable without just getting rid of it, possible putting an action on usage of ki powers, removing the extra attack for 1 ki point. What about removing light armor proficiency. without any armor would you go running at someone even if you had mirror image up. Also, The tricks that are free once then cost ki, just need to cost ki.Mostly It needs to be made that a Ninja is a gimped rogue without his ki, So put up some suggestions to keep the Ninja that tweak it.
Remove the "free once a day" clause to the tricks.
Limit the duration of the "Swift action Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds at lvl 10 for 1 ki point" trick.Buff Rogues
Problem solved.
Remove the "free once a day" clause to the tricks.
Limit the duration of the "Swift action Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds at lvl 10 for 1 ki point" trick.
Buff RoguesProblem solved.
Swift action greater invisibility is pretty disturbing, also a little weak cuz then if you want to go invis earlier you have to take the first trick that is normal invisibility so you invest two tricks in it and the first one is half as effective.
I don't think rogues being buffed should be part of this debate. It will happen in UC, I think Ninja alt class is just the beginning but Ninja should be in line with the core class.
Swift action greater invisibility is pretty disturbing, also a little weak cuz then if you want to go invis earlier you have to take the first trick that is normal invisibility so you invest two tricks in it and the first one is half as effective.
I disagree. You are spending two tricks, but massively increasing your survivability.
What happens when the rogue sneak attacks the mob? It full attacks him in the face.
The Ninja has 2 things he can do, 1 have a mirror image on him, giving him a large miss chance, 2 he can swift action invisibility immediately after attacking, and now he is invisible. Is the mob gonna attack the burly fighter, or what they THINK they saw, for a split second, behind them by flailing in that direction wildly?
It is hardly "less effective" since it serves it's exact purpose, increasing your survivability.
Due to how MAD the Ninja is, it is difficult to really have a decent set of stats. This is critical. Add in the loss of Evasion, and all that delicious trap stuff rogues get, you have a balanced class.
To which others say "the rogue is under powered though!" to which I say "it HAS been underpowered!" and thus in need of a buff.
Buffing the rogue, will level it with the ninja.
I disagree. You are spending two tricks, but massively increasing your survivability.What happens when the rogue sneak attacks the mob? It full attacks him in the face.
The Ninja has 2 things he can do, 1 have a mirror image on him, giving him a large miss chance, 2 he can swift action invisibility immediately after attacking, and now he is invisible. Is the mob gonna attack the burly fighter, or what they THINK they saw, for a split second, behind them by flailing in that direction wildly?
It is hardly "less effective" since it serves it's exact purpose, increasing your survivability.
Due to how MAD the Ninja is, it is difficult to really have a decent set of stats. This is critical. Add in the loss of Evasion, and all that delicious trap stuff rogues get, you have a balanced class.
To which others say "the rogue is under powered though!" to which I say "it HAS been underpowered!" and thus in need of a buff.
Buffing the rogue, will level it with the ninja.
People consider rogue to be underpowered because they are looking at it from a combat perspective only, Which rogue is alright at but rogues do all that out of combat stuff to. Rogues aren't supposed to be the best warriors thats what the full Bab classes are for.
stuff
I disagree with a lot of this. The Rogue is underpowered, so don't make the Ninja also underpowered, just buff the Rogue.
The only Ninja changes needed I feel really are the following
1. Limit Forgotten Trick. Maybe make it 1 use a day per 3 or 4 levels of Ninja. It should be rendered to an emergency "OHSHI-!" contingency of sorts.
2. Increase Ki Point cost of Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade to 2.
3. Remove the free uses.
That's honestly it.
The rest comes down to buffing the Rogue, and hell while we are at, we should buff the Monk too. Kill two birds with one stone as they are the two weakest classes. They need to be brought up to the rest, not have them drag down the rest to their levels.
EDIT: I had a brain fart.
The ninja gains "light steps" at 6th level. It's a useful ability, but the ninja doesn't sacrifice anything to get it. That alone makes the ninja superior to the rogue. I think, at the very least, the ninja shouldn't get a ninja trick at 6th level. Not even sure that covers the gap though.
I would argue that poison use is not worth trapfinding (ofcourse the poisoner archetype does otherwise) so light steps is the extra compensation but I do agree.
not to mention it basically by-passes all traps based on location triggers (most traps)
Wow, so we need to make the Ninja now worse than the Rogue to satisfy the anti-Ninja faction? How about we acknowledge that the Ninja is perfectly fine and instead buff the Rogue in UC?
I am not anti Ninja - I am Pro Balance.
Thats how you stop power creep.
It shouldnt be an easy choice between Cav or Sam based on mechanical benefits alone, nor should it be that way for Rogues/Ninja.
I agree with buffing the Rogue but I cant see the future rogue buffs here, so I am forced to compare apples to apples, not oranges to "I promise I got another orange here someplace..."
At the moment, on pure mechanics Ninja cant dodge fireballs and traps (well, until 10th level anyways). This is balanced against a set of benefits that is ahead of the Monk and mechanically more flexible and better than the Rogues.
I am cool with the Ninja... I think it would be better as an archtype similar to what was done in the APG, but I don't write the game so fair enough if Paizo think it needs something more but at the moment Ninja is all over better just comparing the two classes side by side AS IS.
If Paizo want to show me how they are going to improve the Rogue in a way that works in conjunction with the Core rules to make the rogue an overall better class along with the Ninja then I'd have something to better to compare it to.
However, the playtest should not be "How does the Ninja compare to the Rogue", but "How does the Ninja compare to all the other classes?".
And the echo so far to that seems to be "just fine, it's the Rogue which is underpowered".
However, the playtest should not be "How does the Ninja compare to the Rogue", but "How does the Ninja compare to all the other classes?".
Yes it should, the ninja is a rogue. Archetype or subclass it is a rogue. And it as it stands is outright better then its parent class.
This is a big issue. So it needs balanced with its parent class.
However, the playtest should not be "How does the Ninja compare to the Rogue", but "How does the Ninja compare to all the other classes?".
Yes it should, the ninja is a rogue. Archetype or subclass it is a rogue. And it as it stands is outright better then its parent class.
This is a big issue. So it needs balanced with its parent class.
This is a theoretically right statement I've heard a lot here.
Respectfully, it should be carefully followed. We could have either the chance of:
1) Two so-and-so subclasses of rogue (Core and Ninja)
2) An awesome rogue (Ninja) and another awesome rogue (Core Rogue + few tweaks).
As the ninja tricks are what are so good, make then rogue talents and you have most of the issue gone. The tricks do need balanced and fine tuned.
That is really the biggies issue, it could also do with some moving about {why do they get ki before a monk?}but that is the big one.
As the ninja tricks are what are so good, make then rogue talents and you have most of the issue gone. The tricks do need balanced and fine tuned.
That is really the biggies issue, it could also do with some moving about {why do they get ki before a monk?}but that is the big one.
Well, there are Ninja tricks I definitively see suitable for rogues. Not all of them 'tough.
I'm not even sure it would be a good idea (for these few) give them to the rogue.. the archetype could be watered down, maybe. Some difference is possible (see Antipaladin spells, soeone said).
I'd prefer skill roll boosts, flask, HiPS and other ideas for the Rogue (but I see your point).
The issue being not all those tricks are unique to ninja's and many are just reprinted rogue talents.
You could make the ki ones 1/day usable but allow more uses with ki without really impacting the ninja at all, he would get more uses out of them.
I do think the archetype needs rebalanced, it might get things a bit to early and has no trade off for the level 6 ability.
You could make the ki ones 1/day usable but allow more uses with ki without really impacting the ninja at all, he would get more uses out of them.
This worries me the other way around.
If a power is set to be used and then re-used by the Ninja (expending ki) I'm not sure is not unjust toward the rogue allow only a flat out 1/day.
Maybe bring in comparable powers (maybe scaling with rogue levels in use) is more safe. A more solid Talent + Archetype for rogues is better than copypasta from Ninja.
I also worry about that, but as it he is outright super better anyhow. Those tricks point and laugh at rogue talents. Major magic..hahaha..ninja gets it with no extra cost and better.
I do feel the ki pool needs toned down a bit as well however, at level 2 it is just a bit too good.
I also worry about that, but as it he is outright super better anyhow. Those tricks point and laugh at rogue talents. Major magic..hahaha..ninja gets it with no extra cost and better.
I do feel the ki pool needs toned down a bit as well however, at level 2 it is just a bit too good.
The extra attack could be made into a trick, along the same way that flurry of stars is a trick. That would bring Ki pool in line with its entry level, somewhat. it still costs a swift action, which means it precludes the use of a lot of other ninja tricks.
That is not a bad idea really. Might leave it with it being unlocked at level 4 or so, maybe...
I think the Ninja is fine as is.
Heck, it's closer to what the rogue should have been to begin with.
Buff the rogue, leave the ninja alone.
The extra attack could be made into a trick, along the same way that flurry of stars is a trick. That would bring Ki pool in line with its entry level, somewhat. it still costs a swift action, which means it precludes the use of a lot of other ninja tricks.I also worry about that, but as it he is outright super better anyhow. Those tricks point and laugh at rogue talents. Major magic..hahaha..ninja gets it with no extra cost and better.
I do feel the ki pool needs toned down a bit as well however, at level 2 it is just a bit too good.
Is maybe more balanced but Feat and Talents taxes should be avoided as much as possible IMHO.
Is maybe more balanced but Feat and Talents taxes should be avoided as much as possible IMHO.
Maybe make ki scale? unlock some more powers at the right level?
Maybe make ki scale? unlock some more powers at the right level?
Is maybe more balanced but Feat and Talents taxes should be avoided as much as possible IMHO.
FAR better IMHO. We will see ;)
But I'd argue this... Ninja get Ki before the Monk does, including a whopping extra full attack (which is better than what Fighters can crank out), Poison smoke bomb is potentially available by 4th, stepping on the Alchemists toes. The free 2 HD martial/Exotic weapon is a big addition as well.
See, honestly I'm pretty fine with this, because your comment on the monk just also shows the Monk needs a buff. Also the Bombs are a pretty intense chain that most Ninja will likely overlook in favor of other Tricks, so I don't see it "stepping on the toes" of the Alchemist.
See, honestly I'm pretty fine with this, because your comment on the monk just also shows the Monk needs a buff. Also the Bombs are a pretty intense chain that most Ninja will likely overlook in favor of other Tricks, so I don't see it "stepping on the toes" of the Alchemist.
But I'd argue this... Ninja get Ki before the Monk does, including a whopping extra full attack (which is better than what Fighters can crank out), Poison smoke bomb is potentially available by 4th, stepping on the Alchemists toes. The free 2 HD martial/Exotic weapon is a big addition as well.
Yeah, I tried to put the bombs into a lvl 16 Ninja/lvl 2 Monk build, but there just wasn't space due to all the other awesome stuff.
Poison smoke bomb is potentially available by 4th, stepping on the Alchemists toes.
Poison smoke bombs are not a very viable choice at level 4. They're inhaled poisons only, of which there are currently 4 in the core rulebook, all costing 1000 gp or higher. Certainly not stepping on the Alchemist's toes.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Agreed, the ninja shouldn't be more powerful than the parent class, having an accent doesn't change that.
The 'extra attack' bit from the ki pool doesn't bother me as much, it's flurry of misses redux, since the ninja's bab doesn't rise to the occasion.
I think that if you dropped the rogue to 6 SP and carve out a couple of skills, then make the ninja tricks available to everyone, it should be fine.
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Lets discuss ways to make the ninja viable without just getting rid of it, possible putting an action on usage of ki powers, removing the extra attack for 1 ki point. What about removing light armor proficiency. without any armor would you go running at someone even if you had mirror image up. Also, The tricks that are free once then cost ki, just need to cost ki.Mostly It needs to be made that a Ninja is a gimped rogue without his ki, So put up some suggestions to keep the Ninja that tweak it.
Remove the "free once a day" clause to the tricks.
Limit the duration of the "Swift action Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds at lvl 10 for 1 ki point" trick.
Buff RoguesProblem solved.
Removing the "free once per day" clause on tricks is the most important balancing tool. Other than that I think the ninja is fairly balanced considering what he gives up.
Removing the "free once per day" clause on tricks is the most important balancing tool. Other than that I think the ninja is fairly balanced considering what he gives up.Trapfinding and evasion?!?
LOL.
As someone pointed out: Not all classes get evasion and those that don't work fine. Besides Ninja have good reflex saves.Also, most classes don't have trapfinding or disable device as a class skill. Game works fine.
We played Crimson Throne from level 1 - 14 without a rogue. No problem.
Let me point out NOT EVEN all rogue get trapfinding. MOST of the rogue Archetypes don't get trapfinding and they suck compared to the Ninja.
This:
I agree with buffing the Rogue but I can't see the future rogue buffs here, so I am forced to compare apples to apples, not oranges to "I promise I got another orange here someplace..."
I agree with both of you, Helaman and magnuskn, but looking at the rogue vs. the Ninja the rogue comes out short and I haven't heard Jason promising more oranges.
edit: I had hoped the APG would fix the monk, bard, rogue and barbarian (and some druid issues). The Barbarian got it's fix the others didn't. The APG tried to fix these classes, but didn't. Shadow Strike and Gang Up are perhaps nice if you are a rogue, but Gang Up costs two feats, you need 13 int and you don't always have at least two of your allies threatening the opponent you want to attack. Point is, why would they fix the rogue now when they didn't in the APG
.....if the rogue needs fixing.
BTW.
It's very funny how some people say that Ki isn't a big deal at the same time scream MAD and want the Ki Pool based on Wis.
If ki is no big deal then char 10 or 12 would be enough. Right?
The people that want to downplay the importance of Ki claims a Ninja should start with at least 14 char. As Zappa one said: Isn't this amazing?
We played Crimson Throne from level 1 - 14 without a rogue. No problem.
Sorry it was War of the burning sky (leve 1 - 14).
Maybe if there were a way for Rogues to get a pool of... Edge points, or something. That would make the balance easy.
or... they could keep all those talents the ninja doesn't get, only the rogue doesn't have to pay for them... wait why isn't this balanced?
Removing the "free once per day" clause on tricks is the most important balancing tool. Other than that I think the ninja is fairly balanced considering what he gives up.
Lets discuss ways to make the ninja viable without just getting rid of it, possible putting an action on usage of ki powers, removing the extra attack for 1 ki point. What about removing light armor proficiency. without any armor would you go running at someone even if you had mirror image up. Also, The tricks that are free once then cost ki, just need to cost ki.Mostly It needs to be made that a Ninja is a gimped rogue without his ki, So put up some suggestions to keep the Ninja that tweak it.
Remove the "free once a day" clause to the tricks.
Limit the duration of the "Swift action Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds at lvl 10 for 1 ki point" trick.
Buff RoguesProblem solved.
who said classes are balanced?
Maybe if there were a way for Rogues to get a pool of... Edge points, or something. That would make the balance easy.or... they could keep all those talents the ninja doesn't get, only the rogue doesn't have to pay for them... wait why isn't this balanced?
Becasue...
The ninja get some of the best rogue talants such asFast Stealth, Combat Trick, Bleeding Attack, Slow Reactions and get to pick a Rogue Talent and an Advanced Rogue Talent.
On top of that she gets Pressure Points, Invisible Blade/vanishing trick a swift action, See the Unseen, Shadow Split, Ghost Step, Shadow Clone.
Invisible Blade/vanishing trick is very nice if you need to hide or when you can't flank. Can't flank? Happens often if your DM is smart. And Shadow Clone. No spell casters can cast mirror image at level 2?
I do agree with you however I don't want rogue to get" Edge points, or something."
Boost the roguer? I would very much like the rogue (and Ninja?) to get talent (or advance talent) that let's the rogue pick improved feint or Gang up even if shes does not have the normal prerequisites.
And a talent that lets him use dex mod (or half dex mod) instead of str to damage.
improved fein as a talent.
Gang up as an advance talent?
Overall, I think the Ninja only needs some minor nerfs if they keep char as the Ki stat.
And as I've said before: Evasion vs Ki?
Evasion is the most overrated ability in the game! Ki is so much better. Most Ninja tricks are 1 / day free and then you pay fore it.
Invisible Blade/vanishing trick a swift action for free once per day and then more times per day if you pay some Ki.
And Light Steps is gold.
Maybe if there were a way for Rogues to get a pool of... Edge points, or something. That would make the balance easy.or... they could keep all those talents the ninja doesn't get, only the rogue doesn't have to pay for them... wait why isn't this balanced?Becasue...
The ninja get some of the best rogue talants such as
Fast Stealth, Combat Trick, Bleeding Attack, Slow Reactions and get to pick a Rogue Talent and an Advanced Rogue Talent.
On top of that she gets Pressure Points, Invisible Blade/vanishing trick a swift action, See the Unseen, Shadow Split, Ghost Step, Shadow Clone.
Invisible Blade/vanishing trick is very nice if you need to hide or when you can't flank. Can't flank? Happens often if your DM is smart. And Shadow Clone. No spell casters can cast mirror image at level 2?I do agree with you however I don't want rogue to get" Edge points, or something."
Boost the roguer? I would very much like the rogue (and Ninja?) to get talent (or advance talent) that let's the rogue pick improved feint or Gang up even if shes does not have the normal prerequisites.
And a talent that lets him use dex mod (or half dex mod) instead of str to damage.
improved fein as a talent.
Gang up as an advance talent?Overall, I think the Ninja only needs some minor nerfs if they keep char as the Ki stat.
ah so becasue the rogue sucks becasue pathfinder made it so they are not NEEDED we should make it so some one can do the same job better i mean come on if the rogue gets seen by a enemy they are DOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but a ninja can actually do something NO WE CANT HAVE THAT wait at level 10 a ninja can buy a wand of improved Invisibility a wand of mirror image a wand of fire ball level 10 a wand of fog cloud a wand of .... i think we get the point? a ninja gets a VARY limited number of ki points and can use stuff for free ONCE a day i see no problem and dont get me wrong i love the rogue class i am playing one in the COT campaign we are ruining atm but when i get hit its like CLERIC SAVE ME and i have a ring of Invisibility and a ring of blink and i get hit a lot as a ninja it would be a little easier is all i could go Invisibility and act not go Invisibility wait sneak attack get seen get attacked by a vampire have 90 damage done ..... get resurrected ask how the fight went and if there were any traps that were needed 2 be disabled figure out that my class is obsolete play kill myself run a wizard but now that the ninjas here i can just play a ninja and do things that help like smoke bombs and take blind-fight and hey look fogs not so bad
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Wall of unformatted text and capslock.
I read only the word "doomed" from everything you wrote because of how unsightly and bothersome it was to even look at it.
If you have a valid thought or opinion on something it is often best to format it so that it is more than simply a wall of text to be filtered out as an annoyance. Just a kind piece of advice.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wall of unformatted text and capslock.I read only the word "doomed" from everything you wrote because of how unsightly and bothersome it was to even look at it.
If you have a valid thought or opinion on something it is often best to format it so that it is more than simply a wall of text to be filtered out as an annoyance. Just a kind piece of advice.
There you go again, injecting logic into it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm serious, guys. Just like the gunslinger's grit, there could be a feat that allows characters access to a pool that is functionally much like ki. It's free for ninjas at second level, but anybody else has to pay for it.
Something like what I posted here?
The ninja still gets all the freebies where the rogue doesn't, but the rogue can refuel his 1/day tricks
Evasion is the most overrated ability in the game! Ki is so much better. Most Ninja tricks are 1 / day free and then you pay fore it...
Wait. How is evasion overrated? It gives you a huge edge vs AoE damage, especially when reflex is your good save (which is usually the case if you have evasion). Improved evasion practically takes AoE damage out of the picture entirely. AoE isn't just blasting wizards either. Traps, explosions, environmental hazards, anything that uses the 1/2 damage on a reflex save mechanic.
Director of Games
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Just as a quick note, this is not a place where we are going to talk about changing the rogue. The design team feels pretty strongly that the rogue works just fine as it currently stands. The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful and we are looking into ways of correcting that.
One other note, I think many folks are seriously under estimating the value of evasion. That reduction in damaging effects adds a great deal to the rogue's survivability against a number of foes and scenarios. Is it the same value as the ki mechanic as it currently stands... that is something we are still looking into.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Wall of unformatted text and capslock.I read only the word "doomed" from everything you wrote because of how unsightly and bothersome it was to even look at it.
If you have a valid thought or opinion on something it is often best to format it so that it is more than simply a wall of text to be filtered out as an annoyance. Just a kind piece of advice.
There you go again, injecting logic into it.
Yeah. I didn't want to say anything at first, but I see I'm not the only one bothered by your logic crap. You're ruining our haterages. stop that s$+# now or we'll beat you up!
Logic has no place on the internets!