I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game. I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away. I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
Guess what? There already are guns in Pathfinder, and Golarion, hell there's an entire country devoted to technology!
If you don't like it then don't use it, simple as that. Just know that if you are choosing to use Golarion as a setting, they DO exist, whether you like it or not.
EDIT: Also *insert humorous concepts about how realism doesn't exist in DnD like the aforementioned axe to the face*
I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game. I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away. I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
No one at Paizo is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use the Gunslinger class or the firearms. If no one in your group wants to use them, that's perfect! No one has to use them! Problem entirely solved.
What you're actually asking for here is to screw over other people who would like to have fun in a different manner than you have fun. That's not cool.
PS. Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat are not, as far as I know, considered Core material.
|
I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game. I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away. I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
I tend to prefer not to mix the two, but sometimes I do. But I don't think it ruins it either.
1) You don't have to allow them in the game.2) It is no more or less realistic than getting hacked with a sword over and over and still fighting on.
bullet to the head, axe to the head, yeah your probly dead on both. Just my opinion.
But according to the game system, you aren't. There is no mechanic for what you describe short of the DM saying it is.
I'm trying to figure out why my fighter can survive being shanked, chopped up, having a dragon breath fire at him, and then zapped by a lightning bolt, is one-hit-killed from a bullet.
A while back, people didn't like mixing asian themes into their D&D. Now it's almost de rigeur. Get over yourself, you silly.
|
|
I play Forgotten Realms for the most part. Was going to get PF setting when new one came out, maybe not. I said whatever realism there is in fantasy, bullet to the head, axe to the head, yeah your probly dead on both. Just my opinion.
As far as the setting goes, they are only common in one part of the setting which is pretty easy to ignore if you want. The truth is they have always been there and after all this time have yet to show up in a adventure or anything. I imagine of the 300+ pages of the setting book less than 10 are taken up with rules or information about guns. So I wouldn't let that effect buying the setting.
Also keep in mind fantasy is different things to different people. A friend of mine considers Victorian era steampunk to be fantasy, to me it isn't but to him it is. So to him guns belong in fantasy. Just saying.
|
Surviving a gunshot in-game: It grazed you. It went through your arm/shoulder/leg cleanly, it dinged off your armor just enough to rattle you and leave you sore.
Surviving an axe: It grazed you. It was a shallow cut. It slammed off your armor enough to rattle you and leave you sore.
Same diff.
Remember that hp doesn't directly describe how wounded you are, if at all. It's an abstraction.
You're a minority. Mr. Fishy problem with the gunslinger class is the 2000+ gp of free gear at first level. Also each shot is what 11 gp? That going to get expensive fast. Mr. Fishy doesn't mind the concept but the wealth by level is "Shot."
|
|
You're a minority. Mr. Fishy problem with the gunslinger class is the 2000+ gp of free gear at first level. Also each shot is what 11 gp? That going to get expensive fast. Mr. Fishy doesn't mind the concept but the wealth by level is "Shot."Really? I figured Mr Fishy would hate them. Next thing you know shotguns are coming out, and it's really unfair when people are fishing with a shotgun.
yeah you would think he would hate them, I mean with guns being behind the saying. "Like shooting fish in a barrel."
|
|
yeah you would think he would hate them, I mean with guns being behind the saying. "Like shooting fish in a barrel."You're a minority. Mr. Fishy problem with the gunslinger class is the 2000+ gp of free gear at first level. Also each shot is what 11 gp? That going to get expensive fast. Mr. Fishy doesn't mind the concept but the wealth by level is "Shot."Really? I figured Mr Fishy would hate them. Next thing you know shotguns are coming out, and it's really unfair when people are fishing with a shotgun.
Probably has a bigger issue with alchemists, considering dynamite fishing came into the setting along with them.
You're a minority. Mr. Fishy problem with the gunslinger class is the 2000+ gp of free gear at first level. Also each shot is what 11 gp? That going to get expensive fast. Mr. Fishy doesn't mind the concept but the wealth by level is "Shot."Really? I figured Mr Fishy would hate them. Next thing you know shotguns are coming out, and it's really unfair when people are fishing with a shotgun.
You are concerned about a shotgun? What about a cloudkill? Or a trigger happy evoker tossing fireballs into the water?
|
If its not Core then your pretty much limiting it to the 'Core Rulebook'. I guess in that case your right. But hey, I see I'm wrong on the subject, if most people want it then it should be in there.
It's funny, I feel exactly the same way you do about samarui and ninja (and monk and paladin for that matter) but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that it's not my game to dictate what works and doesn't in the system. At this point I think guns (and the gunslinger) are pretty much a done deal in Ultimate Combat but Paizo does listen to folks so don't get discouraged by the people shouting you down.
Leave the witty banter to the pros. Ever see a shark with a bullet wound... Ever seen an idiot with explodes and ten fingers?
I play Forgotten Realms for the most part. Was going to get PF setting when new one came out, maybe not. I said whatever realism there is in fantasy, bullet to the head, axe to the head, yeah your probly dead on both. Just my opinion.
<cough cough>Lantan<cough>smokepowder<cough>
|
|
Welcome to the boards.
I'm a fan of having as many options as possible to make up the building blocks of a game. Some games will find guns inappropriate, and they can ignore that element.
Some games will have pirates, or cowboys or steampunk and will embrace those elements.
Different strokes are for different folks. There'll always be some bits you like, and some bits you don't like. Try not to focus on the latter too much, because there's so much of the former to enjoy. ^_^
I hate guns in rpgs.....
however I just thought of something that might be fun.
Nudist Ninjas versus Nuditst pirate game
For me, it has nothing to do with realism. If i wanted realism- I don't have to spend extra money to get it :) To me, its just the overall theme and the reason I play D&D at all.. sword/sorcery dragon fighting, arch magi and clerics and all that.
I also don't do the Asian stuff in my D&D. Now, if a DM were to use an asian setting.. then i wouldn't mind it. Some Samurai showing up in Magnimar though would just feel.. off. The same with the ninja, or gunslinger.
I realize the ship has sailed and the stuff is already in the book- but I have to say this will be the first book I really, really have to look at before I buy.. because so far they are 0 for 3 with the classes they are adding and if the rest of the book is nothing more than crap about a rogue, cavalier, and fighter alt- class that I'll never ever Ever use and the stuff to support it then it'll be a book that I'll skip.
I'm really disappointed that "Ultimate Combat" seems to mean "things that don't belong in any campaign I've ever played in" in some 20 odd years of gaming.
(yes, I know, guns, lazer pistols, great bombards, ninja, etc. have always been "in the books". But they are also very easily ignored- and always have been by the groups I've gone with).
Just my .02, not that I expect to sway any opinions.
-S
Well thanks, I've been gaming for over 15 years and did not like 4E at all. I thought 3E was great, but it was new and very unbalanced (between all the books). Its nice to have a fresh start with Pathfinder, which I own all the hardcovers but have waiting for the new Campaign setting to buy anything Setting wise.
Welcome aboard! As has been mentioned, there is one tiny part of Golarion that deals with guns, and as such is easily ignored if you do not like that. Golarion is an awesome setting.
|
I'm not a big fan of guns in a fantasy setting.
Its just not really worth posting that opinion, as its not helpful in a playtest, and because I can accept my RP taste is not representative of such a diverse crowd of people and their tastes.
I suspect you'll find many people feel the same way, so you don't see many posts ranting about how they won't like guns.
Ever since enjoying Poison Elves and Guardians of the Flame, I've had no problems with guns in my fantasy settings, in fact I prefer them. I generally prefer using the method in the former of them being foreign artifacts, since the world changing introduction of science in the latter means much more work to update and communicate the setting, but updating the feel from medieval fantasy towards renaissance fantasy isn't bad either.
However, I agree that UC is disappointing if it's gearing towards non-universal niche roles rather than expanding and supporting the basics.
Guns have been in DnD forever, look em up in previous rule books of previous editions, they are there.
This is just a class devoted to them, only difference.
As for guns in RPGs? Robotech, Rifts, cyberpunk, shadowrun, there are tons.
RPG certainly isnt stuck to swords and sorcery, infact its probably in the minority.
O! curs'd device! base implement of death!
Fram'd in the black Tartarean realms beneath!
By Beelzebub's malicious art design'd
To ruin all the race of human kind.
-Aristo on Gunpowder.
I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game.
Many people feel this way about Psionics, The Monk, Ninjas, Katanas, Samurai, Steampunk Elements, Swashbuckling in general....
That doesnt mean that the rest of us shouldnt have access to rules that would allow us to dabble in Genre-mixing just because you, and your group, dont like something.
There are many many groups out there who are sensitive about using Demons or Internals in their games because of religious connotations. That doesnt mean i shouldnt have Fiends in my bestiary. There are groups out there who have a hard line about not using Alignment, or whole heatedly believe that Paladin is a flawed class and concept.
Your preferences and opinions have no bearing on defining what should and should not be considered fantasy.
I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away.
Realism =/= Fantasy.
And im not even talking about magic, or about how in a world with drgons, there would be no castles; only bunkers. Im talking about how I can full attack guy with arrows, literally filling him with them. I love archers, and have made Greater-manyshot full-attack builds with a splitting bow, allowing me to crap an obscene number of arrows... and STILL see the thing live.
The reality is this: Gunpowder was created in the 9th or 10th century, and the musket finally showed up about the 14th century, contemporaneous with the katana, but predated by cannons, rockets, mines, all sorts of things. The Chinese used rockets, bombs, cannons, and primitive firearms to repel the Mongols, who eventually conquered China and used the same type of weapons against the Japanese. All this was in the 12th century.
Gunpowder predates complex clockwork, steam engines, telescopes, glass mirrors, even the friggin BUTTONHOLE, which wasnt even invented until the 13th century.
And i sure hope you dont have any Proper sailing ships in your setting, because those are waaaaaaaay past the technology level that would forbid firearms.
I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
Golarion has included firearms since its creation. Alkenstar didnt just all out of the sky. The 3rd edition Core Dungeon Master's Guide had Firearm rules. Many of us have included firearms all along.
I want pirates with canons and flintlocks. I want kung fu masters. I want ninjas and samurai. I want psionic villains. I want Lovecraftian horrors. I want demons, and goblins that eat babies. I want Multidimensional invaders. I want steam powered goblin-clockwork death mecha.
Mark Twain once said that "Censorship is telling a Man he cant have steak because a baby cant chew it."
There is absolutely no reason why any publisher any where should curtail to your preferences when there is an audience for certain content in a book you dont even have to use anyway.
Censor yourself, and dont try and decide what is right or fun or defines "fantasy" for anyone else.
-----------------------------------------
EDIT: after rereading my post, i realized it became a rant. Its nothing personal, i just disagree with your sentiment, and see it often, so maybe i vented some of my frustration with it on you. Sorry.
Welcome to the forums. >.<
|
I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game. I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away. I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
I can only recommend L.E. Modesitt's "Corean Chronicles" to your group as a fine example of guns in fantasy. I don't have a problem with it thanks to those books.
|
I just thought of something that might be fun.
Nudist Ninjas versus Nuditst pirate game
Here's some more Asian goodness for those who want it...
|
|
I can't stand the thought of having guns with Sword and magic, I think it ruins the game. I know they are very early stages of guns but imagining someone not in heavy armor getting shot a few times and still fighting takes whatever realism there is in fantasy away. I know if I don't want to use it I don't have to, I just think something like this should stay out of one of the core books. Why not put out a book called 'Firearms' or something, the people that want it will buy it. I know I can't be alone, everyone in my group doesn't want anything to do with it. I hope they reconsider.
Wait... are you saying Murlynd isn't a BAMF? Cus he is...
|
|
Guns and gunpowder will only appear in a game if a DM allows. In fact a DM can rule out (or rule in) anything. It's not inevitable. Also, rules for guns can vary hugely. For instance, in my game I'm allowing 1600s style black powder ("magick thunder powder") weaponry only from Alkenstar into my Mwangi-based campaign. But hardly anyone sells them or the ammunition in the Mwangi, so they're rare. Also, the guns have a fairly realistic (3 rounds) reload time so they don't dominate even though they hit hard.
Guns and gunpowder will only appear in a game if a DM allows. In fact a DM can rule out (or rule in) anything. It's not inevitable. Also, rules for guns can vary hugely. For instance, in my game I'm allowing 1600s style black powder ("magick thunder powder") weaponry only from Alkenstar into my Mwangi-based campaign. But hardly anyone sells them or the ammunition in the Mwangi, so they're rare. Also, the guns have a fairly realistic (3 rounds) reload time so they don't dominate even though they hit hard.
see that IS very realistic, there was a huge draw back to early firearms in that regard.
American Indians beat large groups of firearm based troops regularly, basically because their bows had better rates of fire.As guns increased in technology and the Indians ability to actually purchase them was very sporadic (the fur trade wasnt as good as it used to be yada yada yada) the gun based troops beat out over native bows.
Problem being, no one will want to play at such a disadvantage until the guns come out that are better. then in the REAL world they were MUCH better ( i take my ak 47 over your longbow any day)
So the trick is balancing a fantasy gun, that will keep up with other Pc classes, but never out pace them.
I like the idea of the gun being a "realistic" gun (more or less, meaning it is a suboptimal choice for a non-gunslinger (or alchemy gunner) but the PC class has features that bring it up to par. So that troops with firearms will get drilled by a wild mob of kobold archers, but a gunslinger will take them down.
I think thats what the devs are scratching for. Which is what those grit deeds are about, they just aren't fine tuned yet.
This is definately just alpha. I expect to see the grit and deeds eventually accomplish exactly what I stated above, and I believe that's the direction they're headed in. Whic suits me extra cool fine.
|
|
I also don't do the Asian stuff in my D&D. Now, if a DM were to use an asian setting.. then i wouldn't mind it. Some Samurai showing up in Magnimar though would just feel.. off. The same with the ninja, or gunslinger.
But what about Tian Xia? I 100% support your feelings that you don't like Asian stuff in your game, I don't agree but I certainly understand your opinion. However if you are using straight up Golarion, just know Tian Xia exists, and thats more than likely the source of your ninjas and samurai. Gunslingers hone their skills in Alkenstar. Im just pointing out that these are cannon parts of Golarion, should you use that world.
And 0gre, I must respectfully disagree with you on monks. Yes they are underpowered, but they are my favorite class :) I've played more monks than anything else.
Guns will only detract from the "feeling" if they're commonplace. Anyone who's read Berserk knows that the comic feels like fantasy, but has several elements (guns, cannons) that don't. Yet because those things are fairly rare, it doesn't make it feel high-tech.
Guns will only detract from the "feeling" if they're commonplace. Anyone who's read Berserk knows that the comic feels like fantasy, but has several elements (guns, cannons) that don't. Yet because those things are fairly rare, it doesn't make it feel high-tech.
Berserk, I love that thing to death but it will just never end. He will die before he finishes it. I don't even wanna imagine a campaign based on midland though, too many monsters that want to rape you.
I for one have NO problem with firearms in my Pathfinder games. We have a player (who's house we play at) who says "I don't want firearms ruining MY gaming experience, NO firearms in the games I play in. Period."
It just seems so closed-minded. In real history the use of medieval arms and armor and the use of firearms overlapped significantly. Especially if you take into account all of the societies on the planet. Not all regions of the world develop at the same rate.