I have looked over the classes in the playtest document. I have no real issues with any of their mechanics so far. I plan on using them as npc opponents in my current games to test them a little.
I do have one problem though. The Ninja. I think it is a great alternate class. I just don't like the name. The word Ninja brings to mind a specific Japanese type of character. There weren't Ninja from other countries or ethnicities until the modern day.
Now I think the class is just fine. I just don't like the name it has. If it was renamed to something else it would better fit in other settings. Perhaps call it a Slayer, Killer, Hit man, or Spy. The class mechanics can be used by a variety of mystical assassins. Since it is an Alternate Class perhaps you could even break with the one word names and call it something like a Mystic Assassin or Mystical Slayer.
I know that the name is largely flavor but flavor is a big part of how things are perceived. The word Ninja is tied up with a specific culture. I would prefer classes of any sort to be as non culturally specific as possible. It also makes for easier immersion when a player wants to make something like a Hashishin from Arabic history to say use the Mystic Assassin instead of saying use the Ninja class. After all the Ninja is filled with fluff (IE: Ninja Trick) that emphasizes it's Japanese origins and flavor which would have to be renamed for other cultures.
Another option would be to include alternate archetypes to use the Ninja in other cultures. Either way would help make the class more useful to non Asian games.
I would also like the Samurai class to make a note between the job of being a Samurai warrior and the inherited position of being a Samurai noble. After all not all Samurai were identical. It should be possible to have a Samurai who is a Wizard, Paladin, or other class without being an Alternate Class of the Cavalier. I do like though that it is an Alternate Class of the Cavalier as opposed to being an Alternate Fighter.
Anyways I would like to say that overall I like the classes. They seem well thought out.
Later,
Rzach
Edited for readability.
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I'd just like to give a BIG +1 to this.
You can't separate the preconceived notions of people when you name the class "Ninja" as opposed to "Mystic Assassin". Give players the option to build a "Ninja" out of the choices presented within. Then you will see less of this black/white debate about the "asian-ess" of stuff in the UC book.
-Idle
Edit: Also, the mystic assassin as a template makes an excellent splat for assassin cults dedicated to specific deities; hashashins (sp), and other groups of the ilk, not just ninjas.
Upon further ramble... you know this is just a big archetype.
I have multiple problems with this class being called a Ninja. Here are a couple of my problems.
1) The name is so iconic that it immediately brings to mind images of JAPANESE assassins. China, Korea, India, Ancient Persia, and the Arabic kingdoms of old all had traditions of Assassins who had mystical abilities and went about unnoticed. This class is generic enough that it could fit all of them. But if a player wants to make an Assassin based on these other cultures he is either going to have to play a rogue or this class is going to have to have all the fluff renamed. Either way has issues. If a player chooses a rogue then there has to be some rules changes to include mystical abilities that fit the concept. If this class is chosen then all the fluff needs to be renamed to be setting appropriate. This can be rather annoying to do when time for gaming is limited due to real life. Also any time said player looks at the book they are going to know that they are playing a renamed Ninja. This breaks immersion and also can lead to players not being satisfied with the exact mechanics of the class. A generic name would work better even though it loses the "cool factor" of playing a Ninja.
2) This class is a very specific interpretation of the Ninja concept. It basically says "This is what a Ninja is!". A Ninja is simply a type of Japanese Assassin. There are multiple ways to interpret a Ninja just as there are multiple ways to interpret a Samurai. A rogue 5/fighter 5 can just as easily fit the description of a Ninja. For that matter almost all of the classes can be used to make a Ninja. This particular Ninja though seems to be locked into the Mystical Ninja idea. When a player currently wants to play a Ninja in a Pathfinder game they can do so in multiple ways. This class limits those options by using the name Ninja. If my players currently ran into a Ninja in my game they would have no idea what it could do. Once this book comes out they will have a very definitive idea of what a Ninja is. This can cause all sorts of problems. Questions like "How can he do that? Ninja's don't have those abilities." or "How come he isn't trying to sneak attack?"
In real life Ninja is more of profession than a set list of abilities. This class makes assumptions about what a Ninja should be. I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation. I would prefer a more setting neutral name for the class. I feel that this would make it easier for players to make a variety of different Mystical Assassin types with this class. It would also leave me free to create other Ninja types if I needed them without having to explain why the fighter is also a Ninja even though he can't walk through walls.
And as for saying the class name aloud. Paladin, Bard, Druid, and Inquisitor were all titles as well as jobs. As are many of the other class names. Ninja was a title as was Samurai. It was what you were.
I don't really care for some of the other specific class names either when I am trying to run a game in a culture were such ideas don't fit. That is why I am a fan of more setting neutral names for classes. At this point trying to change the name of the Paladin or the Druid is not really feasible. But the Ninja has never been in the Players Handbook so there is less of a legacy to worry about.
I am curious if the reason they are sticking with this iconic name is to generate sales or is there another justification for it as well?
Anyways thanks for the time,
Rzach
PS: I know the name is not going to change. I can deal with that. But can you all please show some love to the other Mystical Assassin myths in the world? Again, thank you for your time. -Rzach
Edited for PS
Class doesn't exist in the game world. A 'ninja' is a character who has abilities from the 'ninja' class. His profession could be any number of things. Spy, hit man, thief, you name it. Hell, he could be a monk living peacefully in a monestary, practicing his skills for spiritual reasons.So, if i do make a game into a japonese setting, would make more sense to have classes named Bard, Druid, Inquisitor, Paladin etc. ?
In which circunstances a character says his class name aloud ? Or he just says what order/organization/profession he has wherever he is at the moment ?
said 'ninja' could even be a Maid
I'm going to show my ignorance here and subsequently bring out the best in the interwebs (meaning someone will be along to exert Intellect on my ill-informed diatribe).
What is the etymology of Ninja? Is it REALLY a Japanese word? Or is it an American word to describe something presumably of Japanese origin (though I have heard arguments that the original ninjas came from China).
I thought the Japanese word for ninja was "shinobi." Why are there two words for one thing? [/Derp]
Both words are actually correct. They are each different readings of the Kanji if my memories are correct. Shinobi was the official Japanese word used in documents and was probably the correct way to refer to Ninja. The word Ninja is also Japanese and is technically also correct to use but was not commonly used in Japan. Westerners had an easier time with the word Ninja and it became the prevalent way to refer to Ninja in the west. Edit: Shinobi were also referred to by many regional nick names which described what they did.
Technically Japan is not called Japan but is instead referred to as Nihon or Nippon in the native language. The language is called Nihongo. A Japanese person is actually called Nihonjin or Nipponjin depending on who is trying to teach you the language.
I don't understand threads like this. Golarion is not the real world. A Ninja in Golarian could be a kind of canker sore that grows on the inside of your kneecaps. Or it could be this class that they have put together. Whether it's evocative of a Japanese Ninja to you is irrelevant, because it's not the real world. What a weird thing to care about.
I don't understand threads like this. Golarion is not the real world. A Ninja in Golarian could be a kind of canker sore that grows on the inside of your kneecaps. Or it could be this class that they have put together. Whether it's evocative of a Japanese Ninja to you is irrelevant, because it's not the real world. What a weird thing to care about.
Actually it is not that weird. Words have power. When I say the word Ninja a very distinct image will form in a persons mind if they have any idea what I am talking about. Same goes for any word. Murderer, Assassin, Demon. These words all have ideas and images associated with them when you think about them. When you hear them your brain pulls up your understanding of such ideas. Thus the name of a class can be important because it brings up any preconceived ideas you have about such things.
A good D&D example would be the word Paladin. Everyone has their own ideas about the class and it's role in the game.
Since I am very interested in how the human mind functions such ideas are actually normal for me to think about. I have also noticed over many years that players often have many preconceived ideas about things in the game. This is why I prefer setting neutral names for classes. It is simply easier for people to understand the separation of a role from who the character is when it doesn't have tons of real world history to build expectations from.
And since it is evocative of a Japanese Ninja to me then it indeed is very relevant to me as well. We all have different opinions on such subjective things.
Thank you for your time,
Rzach
Edit: I thought the main rulebook doesn't assume that you are playing in Golarion. I was under the impression that it was fairly setting neutral outside of the list of example deities.
I know the name is not going to change. I can deal with that. But can you all please show some love to the other Mystical Assassin myths in the world?
Actually, I am one that would have been happy with making a Rogue/Monk and calling it a Ninja, but after reading it over, the Ninja is pretty freakin' cool.
Some of the things they can do fit with the myths and old crappy (in a good way) 70s martial arts movies...
But, I do have to second the statement above by Rzach. If the name can't be changed to something more universal, I think it would be a good move to have a few sentences describing some of the other names for mystical assassins...
I know the name is not going to change. I can deal with that. But can you all please show some love to the other Mystical Assassin myths in the world?Actually, I am one that would have been happy with making a Rogue/Monk and calling it a Ninja, but after reading it over, the Ninja is pretty freakin' cool...
I admit that I think the class features are pretty nice as well. It has a very cool flavor.
I agree that a paragraph or two that mentions that this class can be used to represent other Mystical Assassin groups as well would definitely help to make this class more accepted in non oriental settings.
To be honest i dont really Get these posts. People use alot of derogatory and honestly close to racist terminolog when expresing their dislike of the Ninja.
the fact is though we have a game made from predomonantly western European titles and Just as i can turn a Wizard Elemental Archtype char into a Wujen i can Turn a Samurai into a Aristoricatic warlord type who can shoto a bow and fight from horseback (but dosnt use a lance)
Ninja gives a good idea of what the class is supposed to do while the class itself seems to allow the characer to play alot of diferent things within that theme
By the same means my Samurai could be a Faux Mongol Warlord or a Knight Errant or a prince from a purelely western themed game.
the Ninja class seems a little more mystically inclined Rogue type and while it can do things a rogue cannot, it Also cannot do a number of things a roge can do.
Refluf the class to be whatever you want it to be.
Edit for clarificatin the borderline Racist coment was in reference to the term Japanophile some people are smashing about like an adamantium club. Not in reference to anything you have said Rzach
I plan an oriental setting campaing I wish designer remove Druid and Bard from the game.
No Wait...
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Here in Brazil, the word "ninja" is a slang word for someone very skilled at dating, as a matter of fact very few of the classes names evokes the mental image we have in the game. Because of the anime, tokusatsu and video-games, i guess, hardly anyone would think in the historical ninja at the first mention of the word. Ninja is a pop word today. I guess that i am surprised that there isn´t a class named shinigami...
No one could get them to change the Magus to a different name, don't expect to have any better luck with the Ninja.
While I understand the argument for changing the Magus name, Paizo had a difficult choice in what to call their new fighter-mage class.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have wanted rules for a ninja for quite some time. They have been a part of the games tradition since Oriental Adventures in 1985. The whole point of making a ninja archetype/class is to provide the support for ninjas to those who want them. Making a ninja and calling it something else makes no sense to me.
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Class doesn't exist in the game world. A 'ninja' is a character who has abilities from the 'ninja' class. His profession could be any number of things. Spy, hit man, thief, you name it. Hell, he could be a monk living peacefully in a monestary, practicing his skills for spiritual reasons.So, if i do make a game into a japonese setting, would make more sense to have classes named Bard, Druid, Inquisitor, Paladin etc. ?
In which circunstances a character says his class name aloud ? Or he just says what order/organization/profession he has wherever he is at the moment ?
I actually am not enamored of 'Ninjas', never have been. I agree that the name change would be nice, but also (As stated by JB) that it makes sense for it to be staying...
I used to play a lot of Rolemaster, and their 'Ninja' was called the Nightblade, a much cooler name, as I see things.Anyways, Awesome Ninja story from the past...OT WARNING!!!
So, it's 1991, I am running Bushido (Grognards, remember THAT game!?!)
My friend Dave is playing a Ninja, which you aren't even supposed to write on your sheet, obviously. Dave is tired when he makes the character, forgets to write the rules for his Ninjitsu skill (Catch all of a few things) on the back of sheet or whatever.
He is posing as a happy Monk, wandering the countryside, when his Master had sent him along with a group of Samurai into a neighboring province to make sure that they quelled a brewing War (And killed a rival, but I digress...). Someone else spots it, Dave Bluffs them, says he had erased an old sheet...he was playing a Monk, sorry for the confusion.Other player (Eric) nods and forgets it.
Encounter on the road, Ala a confrontational Knight at a bridge crossing/Antaeus from Greek Mythology. A Monk had set up at a bridge, insisting that someone bests him at wrestling before he will step aside. He is trying to perfect his art, and would appreciate their input afterward as well. Dave slinks further into his chair.
Both Samurai characters would never lower themselves to wrestle with some Peasant, the guy playing the 'face', a Yakuza Merchant type tries to bribe the Monk, who smiles and shakes his head..He has no need of anything, he has rice, a place to meditate...All he needs is some healthy competition.
Eric (Playing the Samurai in charge) then says, OoC 'Wait, Dave, you are a Monk...show this guy how it's done!'
IC: Samurai boss waves his hand impatiently, showing the Not-Ninja-I'm-a-Monk that he is tired of waiting, and it is bad luck to behead Monk, so...get to wrestling.
Monk has Jujitsu...poor Ninja doesn't. Comical battle of Ninja getting thrown around, beaten to crap, locked into weird and painful positions...all the time the NPC Monk talking and asking his 'Brother' for his opinion on techniques etc (He has been out there for a bit, and is a little batty). Finally, with the Samurai, looking elsewhere, impatient and bored, and the Yakuza trying to determine of the Monk had anything worth pilfering, Dave tires of it, begs a breather,does some 'Ninja-S&^t', Poison darts the guy with a spit dart...Knocks him out.
Just as the Samurai take interest again (From the sound of the Monk's body hitting the ground), the Ninja jumps on the Monk,as if he had just done some finishing move, gets up, bows to him and says to the Samurai 'I fear that my esteemed brother needs a further lesson in...Jujitsu.'
Party rides on, the Monk snoring off one hell of a sleep.
************************************************************************
Sorry for the Threadjack, but this thread triggered an awesome 19 Year old Ninja Memory.
-Uriel
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Someone earlier said words have power. It is true. Regarding the new content names...
Samurai, Ninja, to include Wujen, even Monk....
Instant disinterest. They are probably viable, cool classes. I trust in Paizo's content, but I just can't get past the names and iconic imagery.
We (our game group) had a discussion last night and of the three new classes, two were iconic oriental bleh of which we could care less, and Galorian books already have guns, without having to argue the issue of bypassing armor.
Content usage 0 for 3.
Back to the OP, we would consider a Mystical Assassin etc but "ninja" is just a power word to draw sales.
@Ravenbow: I generally love kitchen sink campaigns (east, west, underwater, extraplanar) and the last one the oriental part of the world had in important role.
The current one is a gritty, western-themed one with knightly orders, paladins and inquisition.
What role Samurai will have in it? BIG ROLE hear me.
There are 6 big orders of knights. All of them are servant of the emperor.
1 has links with church, another is the emperor's bodyguard and stuff. I use the APG orders for these knights.
There is another order now disgraced - an order of cavaliers once favored by the emperors bloodline, but now fallen from grace unjustly blamed of treason in past times.
This order is made of corageous and stalwart warriors fighting for redemption, vengeance on those who put the blame on them, and continuously show examples of their courage, prowess, strenght, endurance, honor.
Guess which alternate class fits those knights? Samurai. And to be clear, are plate armored western knights like others. And they use all the mechanics - "protect the lands of your lord" included. It's what they do, even if thwarted, because they seek for redemption.
See how it can work? Standard cavaliers are leaders of men --> teamwork feats. The "samurai" is a spread order of knights, its members must fight alone. Wepon feats, reroll saves.
The class is called in the book a Samurai because its mechanics are inspired by the Samurai of legends and movies. Nevertheless, the mechanics can be used as just another tool for your imagination.
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@Ravenbow: I generally love kitchen sink campaigns (east, west, underwater, extraplanar) and the last one the oriental part of the world had in important role.
The current one is a gritty, western-themed one with knightly orders, paladins and inquisition.
What role Samurai will have in it? BIG ROLE hear me.
There are 6 big orders of knights. All of them are servant of the emperor.
1 has links with church, another is the emperor's bodyguard and stuff. I use the APG orders for these knights.
There is another order now disgraced - an order of cavaliers once favored by the emperors bloodline, but now fallen from grace unjustly blamed of treason in past times.
This order is made of corageous and stalwart warriors fighting for redemption, vengeance on those who put the blame on them, and continuously show examples of their courage, prowess, strenght, endurance, honor.
Guess which alternate class fits those knights? Samurai. And to be clear, are plate armored western knights like others. And they use all the mechanics - "protect the lands of your lord" included. It's what they do, even if thwarted, because they seek for redemption.
See how it can work? Standard cavaliers are leaders of men --> teamwork feats. The "samurai" is a spread order of knights, its members must fight alone. Wepon feats, reroll saves.
The class is called in the book a Samurai because its mechanics are inspired by the Samurai of legends and movies. Nevertheless, the mechanics can be used as just another tool for your imagination.
Great example. Sounds like a fun time. All I intended to add to the discussion were that words have power and stereo types, no matter how they are rewritten exist.
Me... not influencing anyone just stating my opinion. I have absolutely ZERO interest in anything oriental flavor in my PF / medieval games. I cannot reword a class to accept it, as in your example, any more than I could utilize a "Pygmy Hunter" class or a "Zulu witchdoctor" in my old west native american campaign (if I had one) no matter how you applied the class descriptives they would always be little pygmies running around North Dakota/Montana in my mindseye.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't mind ninja as an archtype, or samurai, or thugee for that matter for a rogue built more around killing and gets clerical minor magic instead of arcane.
They have to be called something and if the archtype can fit the concept why not?
I mean Magus doesn't really mean "stabacadabra class" an Archivest doesn't spend all his time catalouging things, Not all spellcasters are 'magicians' not every creature with 'careful claw' has claws, etc.
I used to play a lot of Rolemaster, and their 'Ninja' was called the Nightblade, a much cooler name, as I see things.Anyways, Awesome Ninja story from the past...OT WARNING!!!
So, it's 1991, I am running Bushido (Grognards, remember THAT game!?!)
I remember Bushido. I loved that game. I need to see if I can dig up my copy of it. I know I saw those little black books around recently.
And Nightblade does sound cooler than Ninja.
I don't mind ninja as an archtype, or samurai, or thugee for that matter for a rogue built more around killing and gets clerical minor magic instead of arcane.
They have to be called something and if the archtype can fit the concept why not?
I mean Magus doesn't really mean "stabacadabra class" an Archivest doesn't spend all his time catalouging things, Not all spellcasters are 'magicians' not every creature with 'careful claw' has claws, etc.
See I would prefer a more neutral name for the class or to have it become a archetype for the rogue. If it stays as an alternate class then in it's description note that the class can be used to create Thuggee Cultists, Sulsa Operatives, Hashashin Killers, or other mystically empowered assassins or covert operatives as needed in a campaign. Maybe even give some examples of how to refluff the class. Or they could include a few archetypes for the Ninja class to represent other cultures versions of this class.
The Assassin with supernatural abilities is a staple of many different cultures legends. But since the Ninja is the famous version that is what everyone seems to want. No one seems to remember that the Ninja are just one type of such assassin amongst many such legends.
As a sidenote, I don't hate Japan. I am fine with Ninja when I am running an oriental based game. As it stands though this class will see little use in any game I am running unless I remake it with more setting neutral flavor. I can do that. I just wish I didn't have to.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The Assassin with supernatural abilities is a staple of many different cultures legends. But since the Ninja is the famous version that is what everyone seems to want. No one seems to remember that the Ninja are just one type of such assassin amongst many such legends.
As a sidenote, I don't hate Japan. I am fine with Ninja when I am running an oriental based game. As it stands though this class will see little use in any game I am running unless I remake it with more setting neutral flavor. I can do that. I just wish I didn't have to.
I understand. I mean when I read Cavalier, I think of Ralph Mouth with a shield. Most people when they see 'Ranger' think Airborn or Aragorn. But like I said, they have to call it 'something'.
Basically, a good class name is able to set a picture of an iconic member of this class in your mind. Ninja does that.
Yes, my iconic ninja has a katana and shurikens.
Now: I also have pictures of iconic fighters, rangers and rogues in my head. But I don´t actually play the iconic characters, I think of what my character should be and then choose a suitable class for that. Regard classes as tools and your fine. (and if it is really disturbing you, why not just houserule that ninjas are called mystic assassins on your table?)
Actually it is not that weird. Words have power. When I say the word Ninja a very distinct image will form in a persons mind if they have any idea what I am talking about. Same goes for any word. Murderer, Assassin, Demon.
Funny thing about that is that the word "assassin" originally meant a member of the caste of the islamic assassins, who defined themself by a very strong faith since they didn´t escaped after committing murder. Once the word got common in english language, noone cared about that background. Words have power but their meaning can be changed.
What I would do to the class is changing the weapon profiencies somehow.
"Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, short sword, shortbow, shuriken, siangham and wakizashi"
Most of these are japanese weapons and if you are proficient with a katana, you probably don´t want to use short swords (well basically I would change katana = bastard sword to katana = greatsword) and the other assassins your mentioned like say original hashashini should wear other kinds of weapons (like scimitars)
The other stuff about that class fits well to other kinds of assassins (since the ki pool can be seen as some kind of magic and actual ninjas don´t practice qi-gon and invisibility and other illusion/shadow stuff is outright fantasy)
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I used to play a lot of Rolemaster, and their 'Ninja' was called the Nightblade, a much cooler name, as I see things.Anyways, Awesome Ninja story from the past...OT WARNING!!!
So, it's 1991, I am running Bushido (Grognards, remember THAT game!?!)
I remember Bushido. I loved that game. I need to see if I can dig up my copy of it. I know I saw those little black books around recently.
And Nightblade does sound cooler than Ninja.
Tied for best aspect of Bushido...
Touching dad bodies is a huge Taboo for Samurai. No looting the bodies.
First time the Players realized that (And the guys playing an ETA, the Yakuza and the Not-Monk) grinned and took care of them (Loot!Loot!) as the Samurai Players frowned and had to remove themselves to clans their spirits etc...post-battle: Priceless.
Second, and in direct defiance of the people on the boards who talk about DM Fiat, Roleplaying doesn't affect your characters stats/numbers/whatever... Bad Roleplaying gave penalties, ala Karma that accrued for your next character.
Brilliant. One player (Not one from my story) had a Samurai,his arm was broken in a battle. He used a No-Dachi primarily...Player whined, b@!~%ed, complained... I said that it would heal in a month or so, no big Dishonor. Besides, he could be useful, as their Clan was planning strategy for an upcoming battle, he was useful other than as merel7ya a Ginsu-Machine. Nope, he decided that he was just going to commit Seppuku. ...And make a new character.
:|
We went back and forth, he vs. the rest of us, laughing (Players), trying to explain just how 'not appropriate' Seppuku was in the situation (Me). He wouldn't budge.
He does it (With no Second, as the other 2 Samurai refused to help him, since he was being an idiot).
I check the Rulesbook...
He makes a new Samurai...with a Stat Point Penalty for bad Karma...Total Awesome. It was even better than that. His penalty was only if he wanted another Samurai, since he had played one so badly. He was free to make a Yakuza or Ninja (Shhh!!) or Monk...But a Samurai would be penalized for his bad Roleplaying. Pure,unadulterated Awesome.
Funny, when we checked Bushido against AD&D OA out of curiosity...OA pretty much stole everything from Bushido, Verbatim.
That was a great RPG.
-Uriel
Honestly, all this playtest is is because Paizo wanted to finally have an official ninja vs. cowboys fight. Throw in a homebrew swashbuckler and you have pirates. :P
On topic: If you don't like the name "ninja" just homebrew it to something else. Don't like the class abilities? Talk to your GM and make something up. Simple as that.
i like it, so no f**king it up.
and call them Shinobi that can spy, assassinate, and sabotage. Wait a minute that is your basic Government Secret Agents, so call them g-men.
you have left the oddest comments in four threads, i agree but still most people look through all of them
Honestly, all this playtest is is because Paizo wanted to finally have an official ninja vs. cowboys fight. Throw in a homebrew swashbuckler and you have pirates. :P
On topic: If you don't like the name "ninja" just homebrew it to something else. Don't like the class abilities? Talk to your GM and make something up. Simple as that.
Fighter who PrC's into Duelist with Profession (Sailor) would be the closest thing to a swashbuckling pirate we have right now.
I've never been that big on Samurai/Ninja/etc., but to refute the use of the term based on the associated imagery is... absurd.
The associated imagery is the whole point of using the name. *Particularly* as the next AP (Jade Regent in August) will travel to Minkai, the Japan/Nippon equivalent land in Golarion.
Using a word with strong imagery can be limiting, but it also provides an 'in' for someone new to the class or idea, an archetype (in the usual sense) to embrace and grow on. That's one reason I far preferred "Thief" to "Rogue" prior to (and well into) 3rd edition, even if in the end Thief was too limiting for the new concept.
No one could get them to change the Magus to a different name, don't expect to have any better luck with the Ninja.
And let's not forget the "oracle" debacle.
I have a problem with Paizo's Barbarian class because barbarian is based on latin for some one who wears a beard and the Paizo barbarian doesn't have a beard! :P
Most of the names of classes can be traced back to some country of origin. We could change "Ninja" to "Assassin" except it makes little since because of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins
Bard and Druid are specifically Gaellic in origin. So what if the term comes from Japan as its country of origin rather then a western country? The imagery of the Ninja has long since evolved from its original meaning. Look at how it was used in the most recent Batman movies as an example.
Actually, barbarian -as in foreigner, usually of the savage variety- basically means, or to be more precise, meant back in the very very olden days 'anyone who is not Greek'. The word has an ancient Greek origin, at least in the Western part of the world, and is associated with an ancient Greek verb essentially meaning 'to imitate the linguistic sounds non-Greeks made' (something like the modern 'it all sounds Greek to me', which makes the phrase somewhat ironic).
Actually, barbarian -as in foreigner, usually of the savage variety- basically means, or to be more precise, meant back in the very very olden days 'anyone who is not Greek'. The word has an ancient Greek origin, at least in the Western part of the world, if I am not mistaken and comes from a verb essentially meaning 'to imitate the linguistic sounds non-Greek made'.
Yes.
[EDIT: no greek alphabet here] (barbaros*), greek for "babbling" (because they did not talk correctly, hence "babbled" the greek language).
* in latin is "barbarus" (in italian, the class is called "Barbaro").
Yep, your both right. However in latin it also carried the bearded meaning. Take barber for example which comes from barba which means beard. My joke was worded poorly, implying that the root originated in latin rather then greek. It was late at night and I made a lot of other stupid errors, like using "since" rather then "sense", so hopefully you'll forgive me.
You do help me prove my point that the meaning of words cange over time and that being bound to the original meaning and interpritation of a word.
And let's not forget the "oracle" debacle.
deboracle?
Seems like people are more hung up on the class names rather than the actual abilities. If they want their iconic Ninja to be this class then let them, personally I don't see a problem with it. I used the alchemist class to make a ju ju witch doctor, which fit perfectly with the spirit of King Bonbon in a tiny jar. It was formed like a little gorilla head (that was my mutagen). It is many ways to use a class and flavor it differently, don't let the name of it stop you. You can without problems play the ninja class and say you are a western thief with some mysterious power you have learned from a book you stole. Just remember that in-game you don't show your credentials. "Hey 'ers my papers. Peter Haggins lvl 3 Ninja from Cornwall at your service."
Just my nickel\dime\2 cents etc..
Seems like people are more hung up on the class names rather than the actual abilities. If they want their iconic Ninja to be this class then let them, personally I don't see a problem with it. I used the alchemist class to make a ju ju witch doctor, which fit perfectly with the spirit of King Bonbon in a tiny jar. It was formed like a little gorilla head (that was my mutagen). It is many ways to use a class and flavor it differently, don't let the name of it stop you. You can without problems play the ninja class and say you are a western thief with some mysterious power you have learned from a book you stole. Just remember that in-game you don't show your credentials. "Hey 'ers my papers. Peter Haggins lvl 3 Ninja from Cornwall at your service."
Just my nickel\dime\2 cents etc..
+1
Solution: Rename the class, and all of the offending ability names.
I know I'll be doing this.