I had a thought earlier. I realize vanish is a basic ofbthe ninja theme but I think this ability needs a prereq talent. it would mean you could get it at level 4 which would be the same level a rogue could getbthe same thing.
ie the two magic talent rogue talents.
not actually sure if the talent is zero g though butbfigured they should have to wait as long as the base class.
While I do agree that rogues get the shaft somewhat in comparison to the ninja, the ninja tricks that are listed don't seem to be overly imbalancing. I mean the ninja doesn't seem like its going to be too much of a powerhouse. We (as a forum) just are comparing it to its base class and realizing that ninjas have a leg up with their Ki abilities.
Level prereq might be a fix. For what its worth, I am just guessing that Shadow Clone is a bit more powerful, seeing as mirror image is fantastic for surviving combat. I could certainly see that one requiring a level or talent prereq.
One option for balance here might be to limit the number of rounds that Vanishing Trick works down to 1, so its just good for getting a flatfooted opponent or for sneaking off to cover.
I had some time to think on it after my post and I think I agreecwith you
i had a idea too LETS STOP TRYING TO NERF A NINJA JUST BECAUSE A ROGUE IS NOT AS SURVIVABLE and come up with ideas to fix a rogue
My idea was to make it cost 2 ki.
i had a idea too LETS STOP TRYING TO NERF A NINJA JUST BECAUSE A ROGUE IS NOT AS SURVIVABLE and come up with ideas to fix a rogue
These aren't nerfs. A nerf would be making the Ninja a d6, or outright removing Vanishing Trick, or cutting their ki to the abysmal current state of the Gunslinger's Grit.
Those are nerfs.
Vanishing Trick isn't really the problem. Invisible Blade is, and the light steps or whatever that Ninja get, the Rogue has no analogue to. First, IB should be like Vanishing Trick, except the Ninja has the option to spend a ki point to remain invisible in that round, even if they attack, which also shaves 1 minute off the duration.
Second rogues should get a perk at 6th level, such as an ability that allows the rogue to use two sneak attack talents per sneak attack. So now the Rogue has the option to do a bleeding offensive defense sneak attack.
Then the Ninja still has invisibility, but has to keep paying to use it as greater invisibility, which necessitates resource management. Second, the Rogue gets a perk that the Ninja can't get, which isn't overpowering, but can be useful.
Light steps is one of my favorites! Makes the ninj real cool and iconic, kind of floating around like in the movies and distincts her from the rogue. Whats all your problem with Vanishing trick and Invisible Blade?
Did you play a ninja at all? If not stop complaining outright. Those abilities are just right and there are many ways to overcome it. And a ninja cant get Rogue Master tricks. A lot of this sounds like: "Mum, someone else is a bit cooler then me in the schoolyard!" Don´t forget this was a playtest only.
The rogue has no ability at 6th level, the ninja has an iconic ability, but it gives it just another dash of added spice. The rogue shouldn't be completely outclassed. While the Ninja would have the vanish trick and invisible blade to do a lot of sneak attacking, it seems that the Rogue should focus on the sneak attack in a different light, for example adding two effects, instead of only one.
The Ninja has an eighth level spell at 10th level. Quickened Greater Invisibility. It's pretty much instantly become the hallmark. And yes, invis purge, glitter dust, seeing spells can get through it, but not everyone has all these options. And a rogue has no way to force mages and such to effectively counter their class invisibility. I like the ninja class, it's fun. But it still needs a bit of tweaking. Not nearly so much "nerfing" as the Rogue class needs a boost.
Even the 20th level abilities are drastically different. "You cannot be detected by any means by using 2 ki points" against "Your target of a sneak attack can make an embarrassingly easy save for 20th level. And... isn't that you know... like an ability the Ninja can get at 14th level? Assassinate?
All your critics: yes, right. But the rogue is still fun to play and just different from ninja. Don´t forget, Ki pool is not large. Everything could be easier with shorter feat chains or make some easier accesible for rogues. Like Improved xy without prerequisite.
And why assasinate only on level 14?
That was sorta my bad. I said 14 because I figured every ninja is going to take Invisible Blade at 10th, then forgot about 12th. I just picked one of the even levels after 10th, really. But see, the Ninja could take it at 10th. Even though it's the same as the Rogue's 20th level ability... the Rogue definitely needs a boost.
So far i have the impression that many people didn´t really understand the ninja. All she has some mor than rogue with the Ki pool. They see vanishing trick, shadow clone, forgotten trick (though most don´t understand how it works at all in my opinion, see other thread)and then cry overpowered. Your argument with the rogue capstone is the first good one, though probably level 20 is not so common to bother about it.
The rogue has some nice advanced talents too which the ninja doesnt, because she can only access normal rogue talents. Then there are the rogue archetypes and trapsense. What makes a difference. And if you look at other classes, there are some more ablities you can think about. The monks not aging anymore for example, nice role play stuff, but for most games not much crunch. Compared to a monk archetype that becomes immortal and reincarnates if she dies...
Then lets say as a ninja you take vanishing trick, bleeding trick, weapon training, forgotten trick. This way you are heavily specialized for hit and run, not much else you can do. Perhaps if you take shadow clone survive some more open combat. Your invisibility can still be overcome by any cleric or mage. You can be tracked by scent. Tremorsense, whatever. Even scrying. Its more like they incorporated shadowdancer into the rogue class by limiting the HiPS ability.
Anyway, alternate class means its not core and kind of replaces the rogue, so a DM doesn´t have to allow this.
First, a Ninja can take the ninja trick Advanced Talents, which opens up any one Advanced Rogue Talent. Yes, the Ninja can only take Rogue Talent and Advanced Talents once each, but it still gives them versatility and a much larger list compared to a Rogue.
Second, the rogue has one of the least useful 20th level abilities in the game, then the 20th level ability, the capstone, can be used by 10th level assassins, or a Ninja that is 10+ levels and decided to take one Ninja Trick.
Third, a Ninja PC will occasionally fight enemies with blindsense/sight, tremor sense, see invis, true seeing, or invisibility purge, Invisible Blade is still an 8th level spell the Ninja can get at 10th level, and one of the nicest spells at that. How many rogues wish they could get hit with greater invis by the wizard or sorcerer of the group? How many would like to be able to do it to themselves, without a magic device and by spending a swift action and 1 point in a pool of, usually, a few. Oh, and the first use is on the house. If the Rogue had more options to deal sneak attack, via things like "ranged flanking" or counting any square adjacent to a target as a flanking square, the rogue would have a more reliable way to deal sneak attack. As it is, the Ninja now has the most reliable means to deal out sneak attack.
It comes down to this: Rogues are not the prime sneak attackers anymore. They can only deal out sneak attacks to flanked or flatfooted targets, same as the ninja, but they have to feint or win initiative (or use Shatter Defenses) to reliably make a target flatfooted. Which means a move action (and two feats at least) or a 1/combat option, respectively. The Ninja has the same options as well as the option to turn his or her self invisible and go to town. If that is spoiled with invis purge... then all the other options are still there.
I have been playing the ninja for a while now, and my GM determined that Vanishing Trick was a little too powerful for our group so I proposed this fix: Take away the one free use a day, instead of lasting one round per level it works like the Vanish spell from the APG, and it uses a move action instead of a swift action. This didn't affect the way I played the ninja at all and everyone else agreed that I wasn't overpowered anymore.
I have been playing the ninja for a while now, and my GM determined that Vanishing Trick was a little too powerful for our group so I proposed this fix: Take away the one free use a day, instead of lasting one round per level it works like the Vanish spell from the APG, and it uses a move action instead of a swift action. This didn't affect the way I played the ninja at all and everyone else agreed that I wasn't overpowered anymore.
I would like to see your build, if you don't mind.
This is with a 25 point buy.
Im a level 11 dhampir ninja with the following scores:
Str 14
Dex 17+1 at level 4
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 13+1 at level 8
Ninja tricks:
Vanishing Trick
Shadow Clone
Wall Climber
Fast Stealth
Invisible Blade
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
This is with a 25 point buy.
Im a level 11 dhampir ninja with the following scores:
Str 14
Dex 17+1 at level 4
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 13+1 at level 8Ninja tricks:
Vanishing Trick
Shadow Clone
Wall Climber
Fast Stealth
Invisible BladeFeats:
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
So your main shtick seems to be TWF, vanishing trick doesn't seem to help you much. Aside from get you place to place without getting hit, which I see as a good thing.
I rarely use invisibility except to avoid getting smacked while getting into position. Than I unleash my full attack with the extra attack from Ki Attack Speed once Im flanking. I find that I use Shadow Clone way more than Vanishing Trick, it really helps keep my slightly squishy ninja alive when he should by all rights be dead.
First not everyone gets to play a Dhampir, amny DM don´t allow evil races or only with big restrictions. Then its a typical TWF build, of course you don´t need vanishing trick as much. Players that use Sniping need it much more, or players that come in situations to fight alone, where you need to SA, but cannot flank. I think its not overpowered, if you play the other classes right you always get to do as much stuff. Just no Sneak Attacks maybe. You cant do it often anyway. And seriously, when im in a fight where i need to vanish 10 rounds the whole party is probably going to die anyway. The last fights we had though needed much more than only vanishing. I was burning thourgh ki all the time and needed every point.
I rarely use invisibility except to avoid getting smacked while getting into position. Than I unleash my full attack with the extra attack from Ki Attack Speed once Im flanking. I find that I use Shadow Clone way more than Vanishing Trick, it really helps keep my slightly squishy ninja alive when he should by all rights be dead.
So you only use it to avoid getting hit and you felt the need to nerf it?
Well thats what I had been using it for up to level 10. At level 10 it became Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds, and than I just became death incarnate. My full attacks would kill most things, and everybody that ran past me got an invisible attack of opportunity. At that point the GM asked me to stop doing it so I came up with the idea that it should work like a better Vanish. 5 rounds of Greater Invisibility is still powerful, but if I want to be invisible for an entire fight I have to spend multiple ki points.
Well thats what I had been using it for up to level 10. At level 10 it became Greater Invisibility for 10 rounds, and than I just became death incarnate. My full attacks would kill most things, and everybody that ran past me got an invisible attack of opportunity. At that point the GM asked me to stop doing it so I came up with the idea that it should work like a better Vanish. 5 rounds of Greater Invisibility is still powerful, but if I want to be invisible for an entire fight I have to spend multiple ki points.
This thread is talking about vanishing trick, not the greater version, we are all aware that one turns you god mode. The original doesn't have the same problem however, so your nerfing seems unnecessary.
Ah, well in that case I think the only thing wrong with the original version is the fact that you can upgrade it. Take away the upgrade, take away the problem. My group had absolutely no problem with me having 10 rounds of invisibility, but the greater invisibility was too much. I have since my first post actually asked my GM if I could give up the Invisible Blade for another ninja trick and just keep my 10+ rounds of normal invisibility. To be honest I am much happier without it. Sorry for any misunderstanding, I thought this was another thread complaining about Invisible Blade.
Ah, well in that case I think the only thing wrong with the original version is the fact that you can upgrade it. Take away the upgrade, take away the problem. My group had absolutely no problem with me having 10 rounds of invisibility, but the greater invisibility was too much. I have since my first post actually asked my GM if I could give up the Invisible Blade for another ninja trick and just keep my 10+ rounds of normal invisibility. To be honest I am much happier without it. Sorry for any misunderstanding, I thought this was another thread complaining about Invisible Blade.
Seems like it considering the over-reactions so that is understandable. Invisible blade would be fine with a shorter duration, one ki point a round (or two) and it is still crazy useful but not the go to move of every fight.
That would be pretty good, Ill try that out next time we play and see how it goes. It's nice for certain circumstances, but I wouldnt use it every fight. I like Shadow Clones too much to waste all my ki being invisible.