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Who says you can't multiclass the summoner?
<Rogue's Accomplice> (1st Level)
Form: <biped>
AC: 13
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: <base>
Skills: <Acrobatics> +13, <Disable Device> +13, <Perception> +12, <Stealth> +5, etc
Feats: Precise Strike (1st)
Evolutions (base): arms, legs, claws
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Perception), Skilled(Disable Device), Skilled(Acrobatics)
Attack Routine: 2 claws +4 (1d4+3)
Items: masterwork thieves' tools (100), Goggles of Minute Seeing (2,500), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), wand of Lesser Evolution Surge (6,000), Amulet of Mighty Fists, +0 Shocking (5,000)
Notes: A one level dip by a rogue into summoner in order to get a lookout and flank buddy. With masterwork thieves' tools, the eidolon is at +15. Add Goggles of Minute Seeing for 2,500 gp, and the eidolon is +20. If he fails disabling a trap, he poofs out until tomorrow instead of dying. Only magical traps would be off limits for the eidolon. +12 Perception with darkvision makes a good lookout. Add the Eyes of the Eagle, and that bumps to +17. Switch the glasses back and forth based on the job at hand. The summon ritual does not specify were the eidolon appears at. Assuming close range like the spell version, that gets him to a second story. The snatch something, stick it into the ediolon's backpack, and then dismiss the eidolon trick is too easy for getting items outside the city walls.
If the rogue takes Precise Strike at third level, once he has the BAB, all flanking attacks get another d6 of damage. If the rogue take a second level dip into summoner, the eidolon gets evasion, and Skilled(Stealth) or Climb are both good suggestions.
<Halfling/Gnome's Mount> (1st)
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 14 (18 Mage Armor)
Speed: 40' (70' Exp Retreat)
Ability Scores: <base>
Skills:
Feats: Toughness (1st)
Evolutions (base): bite, legs(x2)
Evolutions (extra): Claws, Pounce, Mount
Attack Routine: bite +3 (d6+2) and 2 claws +3 (1d4+3)
Items: a couple Pearl of Power (1st) (1,000 each), wand of Lesser Evolution Surge (6,000), Amulet of Mighty Fists, +0 Shocking (5,000)
Spells: Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat (no, really charge)
Notes: A halfling cavalier taking a one or two level dip in summoner would have a mount that can enter dungeons by dismiss/ritual after ladders, and fits through 5' corridors. The wand can add gills, swim, climb or other specialties when needed.
When the cavalier is higher levels and switches to a mount that levels with him, a scroll of transmogrify to change the eidolon into a scent hound is possible and relatively cheap.
Just a question, how does Ring of Forcefangs add Magic missile to the spell list? You're casting it via the ring, or did I miss something?
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The first item to buy for the eidolon, who is natural attack based, is the Amulet of Natural Fists, +0, (element of preference). For 5,000 gp, it is adding 3.5 average damage per attack, while the Belt of strength +2 is adding +1 damage, or +1.5 if it is power attacking, for a cost of 4,000 gp.
It's not a simple case of 3.5 damage versus 1 damage though. The strength belt adds to attack rolls and in my experience eidolons tend to have a fair amount of trouble with hitting higher AC foes. With the belt you get the extra attack bonus and can power attack more often to make up for the missing damage.
When you miss your damage goes to zero and that +1d6 fire is worthless.
Great thread, I like the guide.
I have to chime in with my 2 cents , first I love the handbook it has helped me really think about the long game for my summoner. But I do have a questions about some of the info.
why isn't scribe scroll a higher priority, after all it's a easy way to circumvent the daily spell allotment? I always have a assortment of my own buff scrolls on hand.
what makes grease so great? It only covers 10 feet "big deal" a dc 10 acrobatics check is fairly simple to make it's barely a speed bump. I can see it used to help some one escape a grapple, but that seems very situational. I would think enlarge should be bumped up to excellent, after all it gives the eidolon a huge damage bonus.
My second point of contention is about the classes SLA to summon yes it is cool and powerful but it seems like more of a fall back for spamming the battle field with cheap minions. I don't know where I would default to summoning over my eidolon. I feel the summoner is really just a battle field controller who can engage in combat while not getting involved.
I recently was fooling around with a combat cleric and had a hard time choosing to buff or fight. with the summoner I can do both.
lastly why is rejuvenate a poor choice? I would think it would take some heat off the party cleric , and make the summoner more self reliant. ( granted it is a touch spell) but then you can always make scrolls.
cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerfProbably a noob question, but could you please explain/elaborate?Summoners must split their GP between themselves and their Eidolons. The Eidolon is essential to the utility of the summoner. So a Sorcerer's Ring of Protection +1 is equivalent to two of the same Rings (one for the Summoner and one for the Eidolon) at of course twice the cost.
Summoners are the weakest defensive class in the game as every level they fall further behind in magic weapons as more magic item usefulness comes from gearing up the Eidolon (who is more scalable) than themselves.
I may be a Noob , but I don't think you have this right. Essentially the summoner and the Eidolon are treated as one pc when it comes to magic items. the summoner can have two rings of whatever and can apply the bonuses to himself or the eidolon wears the items. The duo is treated as 1 character when it comes to Item slots, the bonus of a ring of protection is given to the wearer but the duo can only use a max of two rings between them. I don't see how this nerfs the class it just prevents the abuse of loading up on redundant items. As far as I can see the summoner should never be put in a position to get into direct combat, their role is to "control " the flow of battle. The best defense is " NO be there !"
Right on Grant :)
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As far as I can see the summoner should never be put in a position to get into direct combat, their role is to "control " the flow of battle. The best defense is " NO be there !"
I disagree. When my summoner isn't casting she's either flanking or doing aid another... or doing aid another while flanking. Works out fairly well so far. Precise strike works quite well when you are adding 1d6 to 4-5 attacks per round.
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I don't understand why everyone is so concerned about splitting gp between the Summoner and Eidolon when evolutions can work as well (or better) than items, here are a few examples of 1 point and 2 point evolutions and the items you would normally have to buy for the same effect.
Because evolutions are few and far between. Yes you can replace items with evolution points, but the opposite is also true, you can replace evolution points with items so you can have more powerful attacks, or fly all the time, or whatever. You mix and match between the two as they make sense. Also, they are not exclusive. You can get a belt and the evolution (which is the best route) since the evolution has caps on how high you can go at any level, you can add a belt to get that strength a little higher.
My second point of contention is about the classes SLA to summon yes it is cool and powerful but it seems like more of a fall back for spamming the battle field with cheap minions. I don't know where I would default to summoning over my eidolon.
Unless you found a way around sleeping, this is a very powerful ability, especially at lower levels when you can't cast Summon Eidolon, which is 4th level at the earliest and that is if you take it over haste and glitterdust and invisibility and lesser evolution surge and...
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It depends how you've built the summoner.As far as I can see the summoner should never be put in a position to get into direct combat, their role is to "control " the flow of battle. The best defense is " NO be there !"I disagree. When my summoner isn't casting she's either flanking or doing aid another... or doing aid another while flanking. Works out fairly well so far. Precise strike works quite well when you are adding 1d6 to 4-5 attacks per round.
Yes. It also depends on what level play you are at and a lot of other things. Particularly at lower levels the summoner doesn't have a ton of spells to be tossing around and can make a bigger difference helping his buddy. As you get into the higher levels it swings the other way and you can toss spells the whole time.
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What I am getting at is that if it was my cohort I would have to spend 123,500gps I don't have.
I'd rather get all the abilities I would use items for for free and give up having 2 of every slot.
It's not a choice the summoner has to make.
Essentially a summoner has 2 characters to spread gear over based on how they want to balance things. If you want to focus on having a really powerful eidolon you spend the gold on items for it. If the eidolon's power is less important you focus on items for the summoner.
For what it's worth the gear you've selected is generally not a good selection regardless so really odd for any sort of comparison.
Particularly these items:
+1 Inherent Dex - Manual +1 (27,500gps)
+3 Inherent Str (Ability Increase) - Manual +3 (82,500gps)
Which are about the worst/most expensive way to go about getting ability bonuses. If you need to get your eidolon a bonus to dexterity you have a belt you are much more likely buy him an ioun stone for twice the bonus at less than one third the cost of the tome. The tomes and wishes are 'topping off' items for once you've exhausted every other other means of increasing your abilities.
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Great Job Thanks I will tell my buddy who is playing a summoner to have a look. At the moment 12th level. You might add his Pup to your samples of eidolons... It's a beast and Damn had to get rid of trust me I've tried (while GM'ing). Again great work. I would go half elf first though, and Human would be third not first, although a great choice.
I will openly admit that I prefer a more stealthy summoner. I play in a mostly casual group where the party size is 7 PC's. Everyone has brought up some really good points that have helped me consider the long game.
My summoners attributes were not good enough to make a combat orientated character.
straight up dps is not my first priority as our party is very combat heavy. magic items are a little harder for us to come across in the current campaign , it's not like we can just walk into ye olde magic Walmart.
Thats just a difference in game style.
When I am not buffing party members I am using scrolls to help flank the bad guys and do occasionally help aid other players. I just don't have the HP or Ac to go into combat.
Speaking of scrolls why isn't scribe scroll a higher priority ? I also don't see why grease is such a great low level spell. could someone elaborate on that.
There's also like 101 ways to have fun with grease outside of combat.
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I will openly admit that I prefer a more stealthy summoner. I play in a mostly casual group where the party size is 7 PC's. Everyone has brought up some really good points that have helped me consider the long game.
Nothing wrong with that. I didn't mean to imply there is only one way to do things. In fact, that's exactly my point, that you have options.
Thanks for the info on grease, Now I understand why every one is so keen on that spell.
Just when I thought I knew it all, here comes another question...
who's Initiative do you use for the eidolon? I know summoned monsters go on the casters initiative when they arrive, but what about a active Eidolon?
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Just when I thought I knew it all, here comes another question...
who's Initiative do you use for the eidolon? I know summoned monsters go on the casters initiative when they arrive, but what about a active Eidolon?
It's up to you and your GM, the rules are silent on this.
We've run it both ways, seems to work a little smoother when they all run under the same initiative.
Just when I thought I knew it all, here comes another question...
who's Initiative do you use for the eidolon? I know summoned monsters go on the casters initiative when they arrive, but what about a active Eidolon?
Most people call it as going with the summoner's initiative which does have the effect of making improved initiative that much better.
Bump, update needed!
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I think I have all summoner guide questions answered in this post.
It's a fairly accurate piece of advice too. I played a Malconvoker in 3.5 and drove my DM up the wall, it was tons of fan. Downside, it made the rest of the party feel kind of useless since he was a 1 man party and combat took flipping forever.
I think I have all summoner guide questions answered in this post.It's a fairly accurate piece of advice too. I played a Malconvoker in 3.5 and drove my DM up the wall, it was tons of fan. Downside, it made the rest of the party feel kind of useless since he was a 1 man party and combat took flipping forever.
I made an archetype for Summoners that kind of fixes this. Gives really good incentive to not spam multiple casting of the SM SLA. You should look into that sort of thing!
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I think I have all summoner guide questions answered in this post.
+1
Playing Master Summoners is more about having restraint. You can flood the battlefield, but you must RESIST the temptation to. Just keep only 2-3 of your summons around and try to act like you can only support the party by providing meat shields.
...Unless your party is dying then let loose and make the DM weep. :)
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I made an archetype for Summoners that kind of fixes this. Gives really good incentive to not spam multiple casting of the SM SLA. You should look into that sort of thing!I think I have all summoner guide questions answered in this post.It's a fairly accurate piece of advice too. I played a Malconvoker in 3.5 and drove my DM up the wall, it was tons of fan. Downside, it made the rest of the party feel kind of useless since he was a 1 man party and combat took flipping forever.
Have u tried playing a master summoner in pfs? Kind of curious on how it would perform in actual play. The thing I'm struggling with ATM for my summoner build is I've heard it's a big no no to go large. Is this true? Because as the primary source of a regular summoners damage large seems to be the way to go if you want competitive dpr.
No experience with PFS, sorry.
Master Summoners Eidolon won't do well in combat.
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No experience with PFS, sorry.
Master Summoners Eidolon won't do well in combat.
That's the idea though isn't it? Make the eidolon an ooc skill monkey or give it wings and arms with a few wands and then use summons as your schtick with augment summoning as a free bonus superior summoning at 3 and crazy long durations make action abuse a crazy reality.
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That's the idea though isn't it? Make the eidolon an ooc skill monkey or give it wings and arms with a few wands and then use summons as your schtick with augment summoning as a free bonus superior summoning at 3 and crazy long durations make action abuse a crazy reality.No experience with PFS, sorry.
Master Summoners Eidolon won't do well in combat.
Not sure about PFS, but from my experiences with a Master Summoner, you as a Master Summoner should be able to function WITHOUT ever needing to bring up your Eidolon.
Having your Eidolon as a Skill monkey/Scout/Spotter/etc is just a bonus. It should not and never should be something you depend upon.
And your Eidolon should almost NEVER be summoned in combat. Yes, you can make him a buffer with wands and UMD, but why? Why have it out and limit your Summon Monster SLA to only 1 when you can flood the battlefield with 3 to 12 summons all acting as meat shields and damage?
YOU should be the one buffing. With spells like Haste as a Level 2 spell, you are great at buffing, so do it yourself.
The Master Summoner is the Summoner who forgot he has an Eidolon. His/her Eidolon is like a... pet... like a HAMSTER pet... you keep it in your pocket and feed it and love it, but you never bring it out for battles.
That's my take on it it. :)
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That's the idea though isn't it? Make the eidolon an ooc skill monkey or give it wings and arms with a few wands and then use summons as your schtick with augment summoning as a free bonus superior summoning at 3 and crazy long durations make action abuse a crazy reality.No experience with PFS, sorry.
Master Summoners Eidolon won't do well in combat.
Not sure about PFS, but from my experiences with a Master Summoner, you as a Master Summoner should be able to function WITHOUT ever needing to bring up your Eidolon.
Having your Eidolon as a Skill monkey/Scout/Spotter/etc is just a bonus. It should not and never should be something you depend upon.
And your Eidolon should almost NEVER be summoned in combat. Yes, you can make him a buffer with wands and UMD, but why? Why have it out and limit your Summon Monster SLA to only 1 when you can flood the battlefield with 3 to 12 summons all acting as meat shields and damage?
YOU should be the one buffing. With spells like Haste as a Level 2 spell, you are great at buffing, so do it yourself.
Seems like it would be a fun character to play. I've got a thread up about another summoner that I cobbled together so ill toss another build up in that thread and then post them up in this guide for a few other potential builds ppl can play that are pfs focused.
The Master Summoner is the Summoner who forgot he has an Eidolon. His/her Eidolon is like a... pet... like a HAMSTER pet... you keep it in your pocket and feed it and love it, but you never bring it out for battles.
That's my take on it it. :)
What about the Evolutionist, anyone played it?
Master Summoner and Synthesist from my experience are always the primary choice for the players, thus making the basic Summoner class a little bit obsolete. Do you think also that the evolutionist renders even more obsolete the Standard Summoner?
What about the Evolutionist, anyone played it?
Master Summoner and Synthesist from my experience are always the primary choice for the players, thus making the basic Summoner class a little bit obsolete. Do you think also that the evolutionist renders even more obsolete the Standard Summoner?
I haven't used this archetype, but the free Transmogrify 1/day alone looks like it'd be worth considering. There could also be value in the other abilities, but you do give up some really good abilities to get it.
I haven't used this archetype, but the free Transmogrify 1/day alone looks like it'd be worth considering. There could also be value in the other abilities, but you do give up some really good abilities to get it.What about the Evolutionist, anyone played it?
Master Summoner and Synthesist from my experience are always the primary choice for the players, thus making the basic Summoner class a little bit obsolete. Do you think also that the evolutionist renders even more obsolete the Standard Summoner?
Personally, I find the Evolutionist abilities to be far superior than the base ones.
Evolve Base Form alone is awesome.