Have you put any Info in yet? Whenever I click on a spoiler, it says Page is invalid.
They started working(why?). Anyways, it has a treantmonks feel to it (not a fan), and I think the half elf deserves a higher rating, their favored class bonus gives them more evolution points.
looks alright
it has a treantmonk feel to it as Kierato said, but I like his guides. If you stay that close, I would have staid even closer and made it more like his. So familiar readers can read it more easily.
Good luck with all the evolution possibilities.
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I'm really glad you are putting this together and you've done a lot of work but I strongly disagree with a lot of your advice :( Here is what I would change and I hope you are open to constructive criticism:
Weaknesses (add this): The Eidolon loses HP when it is >100 feet away and disappears completely when the Summoner is asleep or unconscious.
Half-elf is unquestionably the best race since it can have a favored class option of 1/4 evolution point, which means everything to a summoner.
Skills - Eidolon should get Disable Device and Knowledge-Planes for extra utility and stealth and acrobatics since it will be in the front line with tanks and scouts.
Summoner Feats - Summoner's call (Strength). It is by far the best in the game. Always banish and resummon between fights to keep the buff up. Nothing is mediocre about +1 attack and damage to all attacks.
Improved initiative. Going first with haste is VERY important or else the rest of the group will waste attacks.
Traits - Reactionary is a must (+2 initiative).
Eidolon - Weapon Focus - Bite. Since 75%+ of your attacks will be bites (always for first round move/charge)
Metamagic Rod - Reach is much better than Extend to apply buffs to your Eidolon. Combat will almost always be over by the time a duration fades.
Half-Elf's already rated 'Good'. I can't honestly rate them on par with Humans, even with their alternate favoured class ability.
Half-elves are also immune to magical sleep effects, which means it's harder to lose your eidalon in battle. They can easily rate on par with humans,IMO.
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Half-Elf's already rated 'Good'. I can't honestly rate them on par with Humans, even with their alternate favoured class ability.
One evolution point can almost double your DPS (Improved Bite or Energy Attacks) or mean the difference between a horrible attack (tentacle) and one of the best (gore). Or be the difference between walking and flying. etc. Humans are TERRIBLE compared to half-elves. I challenge you to make any Human build that isn't far outmached by my half-elf build once they are level 4+.
I'd make Half-Elf cyan (Excellent), Human purple (meh), and all others Red (awful).
I'm going to going to have to agree with Kilroy and Kierato here.
While Human is one of the best races in the game, the bonus feat isn't particularly important, because Summoners are not nearly as feat dependent as other classes, since your build tends to rely more on the Eidolon's abilities. The extra skill point is not very useful, for Summoners are already starved on skills - in many cases, the Eidolon will already be doing it for you.
That isn't to say your guide isn't good though - I find myself nodding my head at some parts, and sucking air through my teeth at others. I like guides that are done Treantmonk style, even though I generally dislike being overly optimal. The Summoner is a very hard class to optimize because of the huge number of options at your disposal.
I look forward to reading more of it.
I like your guide so far, i especially like the Treantmonk style
I REALLY like the images from fate stay night.
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1 minute summoning time every 10 minutes, in most environments this is a downright dangerous proposition.
Correct. You don't do that. You keep the Eidolon out the whole time and only when you definitely have a moment's break before entering a potentially dangerous area, do you do that. Which happens about 2/3 of scenario fights on average. Still by far making it the best feat since damage is all about +attack.
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Just a quick comment On formatting:
Why do you list bad options at all? Just say "If it's not listed I don't recommend it" and be done with it.
Acrobatic - No
Is a complete waste of page space.
Deft Hands - Still no.
Still a waste.
If you are talking about class specific features, then perhaps its worth mentioning them all, but not for feats or more generic stuff.
Interesting guide, interesting discussion. I haven't had the chance to play a Summoner yet, but he's got a high priority on my "to play" list, so I'm very interested in people's thoughts on the class.
One thing that defies my intuition is dumping Strength. I mean, considering the spell list is almost purely buff/debuff/utility, and not being able to sustain a spell onslaught for long, I think I'd rather grab a decent weapon, cast a few buffs and go put that 3/4 BAB to use alongside my Eidolon.
Like I said, it's just my intuition, as I haven't actually played a Summoner yet, but I'd like to see others' thoughts about that.
Just a quick comment On formatting:
Why do you list bad options at all? Just say "If it's not listed I don't recommend it" and be done with it.Acrobatic - NoIs a complete waste of page space.
Deft Hands - Still no.Still a waste.
If you are talking about class specific features, then perhaps its worth mentioning them all, but not for feats or more generic stuff.
I think that listing some bad choices is good for new players or players that haven't really checked the class and it's not that there is any issue with the wordcount.
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I think that listing some bad choices is good for new players or players that haven't really checked the class and it's not that there is any issue with the wordcount.
New players would have particular problems with the sentence "If it's not in this guide I don't recommend it"?
I can understand if there are some choices that might seem appealing and giving some explanation of why they are not, but in this case it's just "No" which is a waste.
For example he lists all the races and why they are good or not, makes sense (though I disagree with some of his calls there) but just listing a feat and "No" is pointless.
I also don't care for the fact that you have to open every section. Make it difficult to read but I recognize that might just be my preference.
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"The guide's already big and going to be enormous"
So cut out the meaningless crap instead of hiding it. Meaningless crap being things like "Acrobatics - No".
Particularly if the goal is for new players you want something concise.
Curious about the Treantmonk thing, by the way. Why do you say it's in his style? I don't actually know the guy, though I like his guides.
It's a bit of a thing here on the forums. He assigns different colors to different skills/feats/abilities based on their viability/usefulness to the class' optimization, with red ones being outright "don't use it" to light blue being "it's a must" or "this is a highly optimal choice." It's a fairly intuitive system.
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It only gives an enhancement bonus, so if you go for a belt or spell to augment their stats it's worthless.
Wake me up when I am infinitely rich and can't spend thousands of GP especially when cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerf. Until then, if a feat replaces a Belt of Str+2, I will buy an Ioun stone of Atk+1 or Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 or Metamagic Reach wand or etc. each of which is better than any feat in the game.
Downright horrid for the most important stat in the game (+1 atk) and +1 damage to ALL ATTACKS (unlike weapon focus etc) on the creature that has the most attacks of any PC (Eidolon) and your 10min buff is infinitely recyclable so it is up most of a scenario? Your advice is downright horrid.
cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerf
Probably a noob question, but could you please explain/elaborate?
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cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerfProbably a noob question, but could you please explain/elaborate?
Summoners must split their GP between themselves and their Eidolons. The Eidolon is essential to the utility of the summoner. So a Sorcerer's Ring of Protection +1 is equivalent to two of the same Rings (one for the Summoner and one for the Eidolon) at of course twice the cost.
Summoners are the weakest defensive class in the game as every level they fall further behind in magic weapons as more magic item usefulness comes from gearing up the Eidolon (who is more scalable) than themselves.
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Some words of advice for Saph. I will be really excited if you make a good guide with the best advice, the community could use one since this is the most confusing class!
Here is some more advice from my experience:
I have found that Biped > Quadruped > Serpentine. Strength is all-important (for base form and items) and you gain evolution points from the free limbs-arms which allow the cheapest best evolution points to satisfy your natural attack cap: Claws.
Top priorities for evolutions should be Str+2, Improved Bite, Energy Attacks and Trip-Bite. Buffing your bite is more important than all other attacks put together (as mentioned above), so you should always have weapon focus, guidance and natural fang for the bite (if possible).
The Eidolon, with his multiple natural attacks, scales VERY well with the Power Attack feat which should always be up (buff the str/attack to compensate). Also at level 7 Cornugon Smash is insanely good.
For spells: guidance, resistance, and haste are no-brainers. I'd skip mage armor and rejuvenate eidolon and buy wands for those instead. I like enlarge person to cast on a 2h-wielding fighter or barbarian in the group (higher-die weapons scale way better on this spell). Finally, I like expeditious retreat on the Eidolon so he can move really far on the first charge/move to get the attack (also helps with difficult terrain and allows you to keep him next to you with shield bonus and still be in attack range instead of sending him ahead).
I would SKIP getting flight evolution for the Eidolon and use the evolution surge spell to surge it in when needed (many times you won't need it). Also having Evolution Surge as a readied action is amazing since you can instantly apply a Resistance evolution to void spell damage.
Finally a pearly white cracked Ioun stone will prevent you having to heal your Eidolon each day (so you can drop Rejuvenate Eidolon spell and use a wand).
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Its worse in that you're needing to stop every 10 minutes to bring it back up and sitting around for a 1minute to do so.
I never stop every 10 min (I leave the Eidolon out), only before we enter a suspicious area or I think a fight will occur, which is accurate nearly all the time.
And I don't know what an ioun stone of atk+1 is, care to enlighten?
Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism, Cracked
An amulet of mighty fists +1 is better done via greater magic fang leaving the mighty fists to apply to a weapon enhancement.
You will be casting haste the first round, and probably bulls strength the second. Mobs almost never last 2 rounds. Wasting an action casting magic fang is a BIG deal. Also it is range of touch and your Eidolon will be far away after your first haste round.
Rather than take this feat I'd take craft wondrous items, spend 2k gold to make a belt of strength +2 and have the enhancement bonus to STR at all times.
I'm very sorry, now I see where your advice comes from. I only play in Pathfinder Society, which disallows this feat and nullifies your advice. I forgot to mention that up front. Maybe Saph should give 2 sets of advice, one for PFS play and one for other.
Another important point to note is the bite second time evolution gives you 3X the penalty in damage you take from power attack.
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Some words of advice for Saph. I will be really excited if you make a good guide with the best advice, the community could use one since this is the most confusing class!
Here is some more advice from my experience:
I have found that Biped > Quadruped > Serpentine. Strength is all-important (for base form and items) and you gain evolution points from the free limbs-arms which allow the cheapest best evolution points to satisfy your natural attack cap: Claws.
I dunno, quadraped gets some of the best evolutions (pounce, rend, mount), and the fastest speed for mobility.
Serpentine is awesome for stealth/ skills builds.
Biped is king if raw damage output is your goal.
cutting GP in half due to share equipment nerfProbably a noob question, but could you please explain/elaborate?Summoners must split their GP between themselves and their Eidolons. The Eidolon is essential to the utility of the summoner. So a Sorcerer's Ring of Protection +1 is equivalent to two of the same Rings (one for the Summoner and one for the Eidolon) at of course twice the cost.
Summoners are the weakest defensive class in the game as every level they fall further behind in magic weapons as more magic item usefulness comes from gearing up the Eidolon (who is more scalable) than themselves.
Ah, thanks.
I dunno, quadraped gets some of the best evolutions (pounce, rend, mount), and the fastest speed for mobility.
Serpentine is awesome for stealth/ skills builds.
Biped is king if raw damage output is your goal.
Maximizing damage output seems to be the best thing to do with your Eidolon, considering you get so many other tasty summon options as a Summoner.
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Nothing wrong with focusing on damage, but some people want to do other things with their eidolons than just turn them into DPR engines and the eidolons can be quite good at it.
Pounce, grab, rake is a really nice combo (dire lion is one of the most popular summons for exactly this reason). Grappling also is a great way to control the encounter. A caster can cast defensively when he's getting pounded, if he's in a grapple hug he has to make a vicious concentration check.
Also from the DPR side, quadrapeds and serpents can upgrade their bite to get 1 1/2 strength damage and 1:3 power attack, you can't do this with any other attack form (and bipeds can't do it at all).
Some things I have thought about, but haven't playtested them yet:
-I would say that con doubles up with charisma as the most useful stat. A con focused summoner should not waste his time picking spell that require a save. Thankfully there are many good spells in his list that don't.
Example: You may start with con 16 and charisma 14, or charisma 16 and con 14. It doesn't really make a big difference at low levels. The difference becomes apparent in higher levels.
At level 20 the first guy would have:
con 16+ 6 enchantment+3 levels+ 5 tome=30
and charisma 14+2 levels (to have a base 16)+ 6 enchantment= 22
and the second guy con 14 +6 enchantment=20
and charisma 16+ 6 enchantment+5 levels+5 tome= 32
So the first summoner would have 100 extra hp and +5 to fortitude saves compared to other summoner who would have +5 extra summons per day, +5 dc to spells, +5 in concetration and 1 extra spell slot per spell level.
Personally I would prefer the extra hp and bonus to fortitude saves.
Note: The summoner should focus on his con especially if there aren't any other tank melee types in the party (fighter, barbarian etc...).
- Regarding half-elf vs human
Half elf: +2 perception, immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, +3-6 to one skill, +0-5 evolution points,
Human: +1 feats, +1-20 skill points, +1-20 hit points
Hmm I think they are about equal, with the human slighty ahead at low levels and the half-elf slighty ahead at high levels.
- Quadruped seems like the best type pounce is very usefull.
-Feats: The first 3 feats should be improved initiative, toughness, great fortitude with spell focus conjuration and augment summoning close seconds. I am undecided on summoners call. Combat focus isn't bad at low levels either.
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Pounce, grab, rake is a really nice combo (dire lion is one of the most popular summons for exactly this reason). Grappling also is a great way to control the encounter. A caster can cast defensively when he's getting pounded, if he's in a grapple hug he has to make a vicious concentration check.
The Extra DPS from Biped (mostly from the +attack from the strength hitting more and the 1 extra evo point from no pounce and 2 points from limb-arms) and the trip from bite controls the encounter more than a grapple. With haste, that's 2 trips potentially per round. Also, grapple severely weakens the Eidolon's defenses (which are already weak).
The evolution point loss from quadruped and the fact that pounce is only used a max time of once per encounter (often you can't charge in straight line or difficult terrain) definitely don't make up for the extra damage of the Biped. However, the discrepancy lessens at higher levels (when more natural attacks are added to the potential pounce).
Quadruped does have faster base speed and allows mount options and a different RP flavor of course. It is almost as much damage (but not quite) so it isn't an unreasonable choice unlike the Serpentine which does far less damage.
OK, I'm going to be covering the Spells section next, probably tomorrow. I'm leaving Eidolons for last since they're the most complicated.
Great!!!!
Thank you for doing this for us.|
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Also from the DPR side, quadrapeds and serpents can upgrade their bite to get 1 1/2 strength damage and 1:3 power attack, you can't do this with any other attack form (and bipeds can't do it at all).Incorrect. My Biped has this and it is perfectly legal.
You can only take an evolution once.
"Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
"If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."
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You can only take an evolution once.
"Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
"If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."
Once the Biped takes the Bite evolution, he 'already has the bite attack'. Then you take Improved Bite, which is makes your existing bite stronger - a totally different effect and satisfies 'unless otherwise noted' since it clearly talks about taking the same thing twice.
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Once the Biped takes the Bite evolution, he 'already has the bite attack'. Then you take Improved Bite, which is makes your existing bite stronger - a totally different effect and satisfies 'unless otherwise noted' since it clearly talks about taking the same thing twice.You can only take an evolution once.
"Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
"If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."
It says "If the eidolon already has a bite attack", the quad and the serpent already have a bite attack and that language applies to them.
Nothing in the evolution says or even implies you can take it twice.
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Ogre, it "already has a bite attack" because it specifically has the "Bite" evolution as a free evolution based on its form.
Therefore, if you were to get the Bite evolution on a Biped, you could certainly then take "improved bite" on the biped as well, since both the quad and the serpentine have both evolutions.
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What makes you think it's not the simple statement that if you already have it you get a different benefit?
To me it's simple to parse.
Bite gets you XXX
If you have bite and you take this you get XXX + YYY.
Nowhere in parsing that does the idea of being able to take the evolution twice come up. What makes you think it does.
Limbs: "This evolution can be selected more than once."
Ability increase "This evolution can be selected more than once."
That's pretty explicit.
Swim: "This evolution can be selected more than once. Each additional time it is selected, increase..."
Why doesn't it say "This evolution can be taken more than once. Taking this evolution a second time ..."?
Again the original phrase is "Unless otherwise noted". It most certainly does not note bite can be taken twice.
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maybe because its called "Bite" and then "Bite, Improved" and then the evo "Improved Damage: Bite"??
all 3 are different evolutions???
Notice that the "Bite" evolution that they get for free is not able to be taken. Instead, you get "Bite, Improved".
At least it is on HeroLabs, so in the book its a bit different. That said, it can be confusing to say the least.
HL also allows a Biped to take "Bite" then "Bite, Improved" as well.
So, this should be FAQ'd.